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  TOV News > Honda steeped in Green for the long haul > > Re: Acura V10, LFA

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Potenza
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Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 2, Interesting) 10-26-2009 16:14
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Acura V10 supercar

It seems to me that Honda does not just make sports cars for the fun of it, but rather they do it once in a great while and for a direct purpose. We all know the NSX was made to celebrate Honda's F1 successes and the S2000 was made to celebrate Honda's 50th anniversary.

The V10 car, I believe, was supposed to lead the charge of the Tier One Acura brand into new markets, such as Japan and Europe. It would be introducing the Acura nameplate, leading the design direction for the brand, and being a halo for the new Tier One lineup.

If you're thinking the V10 car was the only victim of the financial crisis, you're looking at too small of a picture. In fact, the Acura brand introduction has been cancelled in those new markets. The V10's cancellation has been a secondary result of that.

As for the U.S., the car could arguably still be introduced as a "halo." But you ideally want a halo to represent the lineup to the brand's max. (Audi's R8 features Quattro, DSG, V8 and V10 engines - all of these available in lower Audi models, but the R8 being the max approach).

If Acura had indeed intended to create V8 and RWD products, the V10 would have been a great halo. If the company's new direction involves fuel-efficient V6s and hybrids, a V10 is the wrong kind of halo to have. (Hence Ito's statement that he would indeed like to have a future sports car, but one implementing innovative technologies and being environmentally friendly). - That would be the proper halo for where the brand is headed.

So if the V10 existed, sure we could all drive it in Forza or GT5, but otherwise what good does it do? A) We couldn't afford it. B) It won't sell any of you enthusiasts on a hybrid TSX or "ugly" V6 TL. C) Heaven forbid they pull a Toyota and lose money on each one they sell.

I like to dream about my ideal Honda/Acura lineup too, but realistically and logically the decision to cancel the V10 makes complete business sense.


LFA

The only review I've read on the LFA so far is from Motor Trend. There were two things about it that bothered me.

First paragraph: "Even in our gilded age of $5 coffee libations and $10,000 plasma TVs, the price shocks like a hornet sting: a Toyota that costs... nearly $400,000.

True, the limited-edition, two-seat, rear-drive LFA supercar, due to appear here in early 2011, will hide its Toyota roots behind the velvet rope of its maker's Lexus brand, but the sticker is staggering nonetheless."


It begins by talking about a $400,000 Toyota (They even took the liberty to bump up the actual price to make their point). As a matter of fact, the article writes "Toyota" thirteen times. By comparison, it only mentions "Lexus" six times. For a halo of the Lexus brand, that's a true shame - almost a failing. Again referring to the Audi R8, you don't hear any review mention a VW. Sometimes they say "Lamborghini." That's a successful halo.

Back to the article, the second disappointing part is the lack of enthusiasm.

...the stiffness is largely irrelevant, but...
...The sound is racy, but...
...shifts are quick enough-but...
...Steering feel is solid, though...
...The LFA lacks...
...brandishes all the requisite high-tech weaponry, yet...
...feat of engineering. But...


I mean, there is little in the article to show that they are even impressed. Honestly, compare this to a Honda Fit review, and see which one is more enthusiastically ranted and raved about.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0912_2012_lexus_lfa_first_drive/index.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hatchbacks/112_0809_2009_honda_fit_sport_quick_test/index.html

Just some food for thought.

NSXforever
Profile for NSXforever
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 16:50
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Potenza wrote:
Acura V10 supercar

It seems to me that Honda does not just make sports cars for the fun of it, but rather they do it once in a great while and for a direct purpose. We all know the NSX was made to celebrate Honda's F1 successes and the S2000 was made to celebrate Honda's 50th anniversary.

The V10 car, I believe, was supposed to lead the charge of the Tier One Acura brand into new markets, such as Japan and Europe. It would be introducing the Acura nameplate, leading the design direction for the brand, and being a halo for the new Tier One lineup.

If you're thinking the V10 car was the only victim of the financial crisis, you're looking at too small of a picture. In fact, the Acura brand introduction has been cancelled in those new markets. The V10's cancellation has been a secondary result of that.

As for the U.S., the car could arguably still be introduced as a "halo." But you ideally want a halo to represent the lineup to the brand's max. (Audi's R8 features Quattro, DSG, V8 and V10 engines - all of these available in lower Audi models, but the R8 being the max approach).

If Acura had indeed intended to create V8 and RWD products, the V10 would have been a great halo. If the company's new direction involves fuel-efficient V6s and hybrids, a V10 is the wrong kind of halo to have. (Hence Ito's statement that he would indeed like to have a future sports car, but one implementing innovative technologies and being environmentally friendly). - That would be the proper halo for where the brand is headed.

So if the V10 existed, sure we could all drive it in Forza or GT5, but otherwise what good does it do? A) We couldn't afford it. B) It won't sell any of you enthusiasts on a hybrid TSX or "ugly" V6 TL. C) Heaven forbid they pull a Toyota and lose money on each one they sell.

I like to dream about my ideal Honda/Acura lineup too, but realistically and logically the decision to cancel the V10 makes complete business sense.


LFA

The only review I've read on the LFA so far is from Motor Trend. There were two things about it that bothered me.

First paragraph: "Even in our gilded age of $5 coffee libations and $10,000 plasma TVs, the price shocks like a hornet sting: a Toyota that costs... nearly $400,000.

True, the limited-edition, two-seat, rear-drive LFA supercar, due to appear here in early 2011, will hide its Toyota roots behind the velvet rope of its maker's Lexus brand, but the sticker is staggering nonetheless."


It begins by talking about a $400,000 Toyota (They even took the liberty to bump up the actual price to make their point). As a matter of fact, the article writes "Toyota" thirteen times. By comparison, it only mentions "Lexus" six times. For a halo of the Lexus brand, that's a true shame - almost a failing. Again referring to the Audi R8, you don't hear any review mention a VW. Sometimes they say "Lamborghini." That's a successful halo.

Back to the article, the second disappointing part is the lack of enthusiasm.

...the stiffness is largely irrelevant, but...
...The sound is racy, but...
...shifts are quick enough-but...
...Steering feel is solid, though...
...The LFA lacks...
...brandishes all the requisite high-tech weaponry, yet...
...feat of engineering. But...


I mean, there is little in the article to show that they are even impressed. Honestly, compare this to a Honda Fit review, and see which one is more enthusiastically ranted and raved about.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0912_2012_lexus_lfa_first_drive/index.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hatchbacks/112_0809_2009_honda_fit_sport_quick_test/index.html

Just some food for thought.


Not sure why we need another thread when we have one discussing this car.

Two, do you have google? The LFA has been been driven for initial drives by EVERYONE, from Euro mags to our mags. They are raving about the vehicle. Its clearly no rewriter of all we know but even if you hate it, the experts really are fond of it thus far

WTF Fit? Are you serious? lol

Don't hate, congratulate!

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 16:57
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
That's because the LFA is over the top. Toyota is trying to join the ranks but its' running into a glass ceiling.

Compare the LFA with the NSX with its V6. Every one who drove it and tested it love it for its lightweight and nimbleness.

It was the "Honda of supercars", a different way to make a supercar, and yet it didn't sell so well...

Why?

Because "supercars" are sold to old men who buy them strictly on the basis of "status".

Enzo Ferrari once commented that Ferrari "sold cars to old men so that young men could race them".

Old men drive their supercars at the speed limit.

Young men only drive supercars if they work as valets at the Ritz Carlton.

Which is the truth, huh?

Why should Honda build a V10 supercar when it well knows it will be held up to the snobs?

Honda was able to break the "20,000 dollar japanese car" barrier because it was a barrier for the upper middle class. At that point, value has some meaning still. And so, Acura broke in and so did Lexus and Infiniti.

But to break into the Supercar snob level, something that Audi can't do even and at which BMW had failed, you need to have UberSnob appeal.... Ferrari, Lambo, Rolls, Bentley don't make "entry level" cars per se.

Even the Benz supercar efforts (Mayback, top of the line SL) fail because they are hobbled by that $400/month lease specials from Valencia MB....

The only way HMC could introduce a successful car with a V10 would be to establish an uber brand, Opulance Motor cars, and go for broke.... But I doubt they would do that because that might really bankrupt HMC.

http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=302193

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 16:59
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Potenza wrote:
Acura V10 supercar

It seems to me that Honda does not just make sports cars for the fun of it, but rather they do it once in a great while and for a direct purpose. We all know the NSX was made to celebrate Honda's F1 successes and the S2000 was made to celebrate Honda's 50th anniversary.

The V10 car, I believe, was supposed to lead the charge of the Tier One Acura brand into new markets, such as Japan and Europe. It would be introducing the Acura nameplate, leading the design direction for the brand, and being a halo for the new Tier One lineup.

If you're thinking the V10 car was the only victim of the financial crisis, you're looking at too small of a picture. In fact, the Acura brand introduction has been cancelled in those new markets. The V10's cancellation has been a secondary result of that.

As for the U.S., the car could arguably still be introduced as a "halo." But you ideally want a halo to represent the lineup to the brand's max. (Audi's R8 features Quattro, DSG, V8 and V10 engines - all of these available in lower Audi models, but the R8 being the max approach).

If Acura had indeed intended to create V8 and RWD products, the V10 would have been a great halo. If the company's new direction involves fuel-efficient V6s and hybrids, a V10 is the wrong kind of halo to have. (Hence Ito's statement that he would indeed like to have a future sports car, but one implementing innovative technologies and being environmentally friendly). - That would be the proper halo for where the brand is headed.

So if the V10 existed, sure we could all drive it in Forza or GT5, but otherwise what good does it do? A) We couldn't afford it. B) It won't sell any of you enthusiasts on a hybrid TSX or "ugly" V6 TL. C) Heaven forbid they pull a Toyota and lose money on each one they sell.

I like to dream about my ideal Honda/Acura lineup too, but realistically and logically the decision to cancel the V10 makes complete business sense.


LFA

The only review I've read on the LFA so far is from Motor Trend. There were two things about it that bothered me.

First paragraph: "Even in our gilded age of $5 coffee libations and $10,000 plasma TVs, the price shocks like a hornet sting: a Toyota that costs... nearly $400,000.

True, the limited-edition, two-seat, rear-drive LFA supercar, due to appear here in early 2011, will hide its Toyota roots behind the velvet rope of its maker's Lexus brand, but the sticker is staggering nonetheless."


It begins by talking about a $400,000 Toyota (They even took the liberty to bump up the actual price to make their point). As a matter of fact, the article writes "Toyota" thirteen times. By comparison, it only mentions "Lexus" six times. For a halo of the Lexus brand, that's a true shame - almost a failing. Again referring to the Audi R8, you don't hear any review mention a VW. Sometimes they say "Lamborghini." That's a successful halo.

Back to the article, the second disappointing part is the lack of enthusiasm.

...the stiffness is largely irrelevant, but...
...The sound is racy, but...
...shifts are quick enough-but...
...Steering feel is solid, though...
...The LFA lacks...
...brandishes all the requisite high-tech weaponry, yet...
...feat of engineering. But...


I mean, there is little in the article to show that they are even impressed. Honestly, compare this to a Honda Fit review, and see which one is more enthusiastically ranted and raved about.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0912_2012_lexus_lfa_first_drive/index.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hatchbacks/112_0809_2009_honda_fit_sport_quick_test/index.html

Just some food for thought.




Nonsense. Don't use logic to justify the cancellation of the NSX. How dare you?

I don't agree on the evaluation though. Motor Trend's was rather lackluster, but most of the other ones have been positive.

Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 17:03
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NSXforever wrote:
WTF Fit? Are you serious? lol

Don't hate, congratulate!

I merely asked you to read those two Motor Trend reviews and see which one is more enthusiastically ranted and raved about. Feel free.

And I gave nothing of hate to the LFA.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 17:03
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NSXforever wrote:

Not sure why we need another thread when we have one discussing this car.

Two, do you have google? The LFA has been been driven for initial drives by EVERYONE, from Euro mags to our mags. They are raving about the vehicle. Its clearly no rewriter of all we know but even if you hate it, the experts really are fond of it thus far

WTF Fit? Are you serious? lol

Don't hate, congratulate!



We have an 09 Fit Sport with MT5.

It's the most fun Honda car I've had since the 89 CRX Si.

More fun to drive than the GSR, RSX-S, Prelude SH, Accord MT6, TLs, etc.... The only car that approaches it in fun factor is the EP-3 and even then the EP-3 was hobbled by its shortshifted engine, while the powertrain in the Fit is perfectly matched.

Just today, I did the cloverleaf 270 degree turn... on the final exit, I got to shift up to 3rd at about 60mph... which is midway as I hit the apex of the turn... There I was, nice cigar in my mouth, left hand on the wheel, right hand zipping down to the shifter, right foot on the gas, left foot on the clutch.

It was hard to hold on to the cigar because of the shit eating grin on my face. ;-)

Did I say the Fit is fun to drive?

I dare say the LFA is nowhere as fun. Unless you get access to a race track with loooong straightways.

NSXforever
Profile for NSXforever
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 17:19
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TonyE wrote:
NSXforever wrote:

Not sure why we need another thread when we have one discussing this car.

Two, do you have google? The LFA has been been driven for initial drives by EVERYONE, from Euro mags to our mags. They are raving about the vehicle. Its clearly no rewriter of all we know but even if you hate it, the experts really are fond of it thus far

WTF Fit? Are you serious? lol

Don't hate, congratulate!



We have an 09 Fit Sport with MT5.

It's the most fun Honda car I've had since the 89 CRX Si.

More fun to drive than the GSR, RSX-S, Prelude SH, Accord MT6, TLs, etc.... The only car that approaches it in fun factor is the EP-3 and even then the EP-3 was hobbled by its shortshifted engine, while the powertrain in the Fit is perfectly matched.

Just today, I did the cloverleaf 270 degree turn... on the final exit, I got to shift up to 3rd at about 60mph... which is midway as I hit the apex of the turn... There I was, nice cigar in my mouth, left hand on the wheel, right hand zipping down to the shifter, right foot on the gas, left foot on the clutch.

It was hard to hold on to the cigar because of the shit eating grin on my face. ;-)

Did I say the Fit is fun to drive?

I dare say the LFA is nowhere as fun. Unless you get access to a race track with loooong straightways.


Clearly one does not need a 550hp car to have fun. We all know the Fit is "fun" for what it is. Some of the most fun cars are low hp, low weight cars. However most people will not think or drive or buy a Fit b/c its fun. Its b/c its cheap and practical and is a Honda.

Seriously it shouldn't even be mentioned here.

Maybe Honda realized they were going about the NSX all wrong. The design was pretty blah and again, it was AWD, front engine, with a V-10. NSX owners were up in arms about it!

Bring a low weight, turbo V-6, under 100k NSX. Lotus has the Evora, it can be done!

Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 18:09
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I'm sure there are definitely good reviews, but I'll have to keep reading. I just read the Autoblog review, and it wasn't overly positive, either. Reminds me a bit of a ZDX review - not a whole lot to speak of negatively, but not much gushing, either.

They call the LFA undramatic and not particularly thrilling, even hinting that the author gets more of a "thrill" from driving a Versa on track. In both the introduction and conclusion, the article continues to simply question why the car exists, ultimately figuring that it's merely Toyota's way of honing their carbon-fibre technology for the future.

They even second-guess the "halo" effect, suggesting "we somehow doubt consumers are going to ogle an LFA then turn around and buy an IS 250." And like the MT article, there are 20 mentions of Toyota to only 12 mentions of Lexus. Again missing the ideal target of a Lexus-brand halo.


Personally, aside from a few nitpicks, I like the LFA. But I see zero reason in it why Honda should build a competitor, which was my point in the initial post.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 21:43
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NSXforever wrote:
..
We have an 09 Fit Sport with MT5.

It's the most fun Honda car I've had since the 89 CRX Si.

More fun to drive than the GSR, RSX-S, Prelude SH, Accord MT6, TLs, etc.... The only car that approaches it in fun factor is the EP-3 and even then the EP-3 was hobbled by its shortshifted engine, while the powertrain in the Fit is perfectly matched.

Just today, I did the cloverleaf 270 degree turn... on the final exit, I got to shift up to 3rd at about 60mph... which is midway as I hit the apex of the turn... There I was, nice cigar in my mouth, left hand on the wheel, right hand zipping down to the shifter, right foot on the gas, left foot on the clutch.

It was hard to hold on to the cigar because of the shit eating grin on my face. ;-)

Did I say the Fit is fun to drive?

I dare say the LFA is nowhere as fun. Unless you get access to a race track with loooong straightways.


Clearly one does not need a 550hp car to have fun. We all know the Fit is "fun" for what it is. Some of the most fun cars are low hp, low weight cars. However most people will not think or drive or buy a Fit b/c its fun. Its b/c its cheap and practical and is a Honda.

Seriously it shouldn't even be mentioned here.

Maybe Honda realized they were going about the NSX all wrong. The design was pretty blah and again, it was AWD, front engine, with a V-10. NSX owners were up in arms about it!

Bring a low weight, turbo V-6, under 100k NSX. Lotus has the Evora, it can be done!



Sorry but the Fit is NOT CHEAP, it's INEXPENSIVE.

There are $30K cars that are cheap. The Fit is put together impressively, has tons of good stuff in it (ours has the Navi), a surprisingly good stereo and offers TONS of VALUE.

It's not CHEAP!



Last edited by JMU R1 on 10-27-2009 00:00
voodoobru
Profile for voodoobru
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 23:24
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TonyE wrote:
We have an 09 Fit Sport with MT5.

It's the most fun Honda car I've had since the 89 CRX Si.

More fun to drive than the GSR, RSX-S, Prelude SH, Accord MT6, TLs, etc.... The only car that approaches it in fun factor is the EP-3 and even then the EP-3 was hobbled by its shortshifted engine, while the powertrain in the Fit is perfectly matched.

Just today, I did the cloverleaf 270 degree turn... on the final exit, I got to shift up to 3rd at about 60mph... which is midway as I hit the apex of the turn... There I was, nice cigar in my mouth, left hand on the wheel, right hand zipping down ...


stopped reading there

montechester
Profile for montechester
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 23:42
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Potenza wrote:. Its clearly no rewriter of all we know but even if you hate it, the experts really are fond of it thus far

WTF Fit? Are you serious? lol


Well, I agree with the OP, the first few reports I read about the LFA were less than stellar so I kind of lost interest. Until one drives down my street, a remote possibility, I probably won't go out of my way to see one. And BTW, I don't think "fond of" is quite enough when the asking price is that of a pretty upscale home in most parts of this country.

NickDC5
Profile for NickDC5
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-27-2009 00:02
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Every review of every car in the history of vehicles has "but" in it, because no car is perfect. Look at reviews of the original NSX and people will find SOME flaws with it too. Same goes for every Ferrari ever made, and every Lamborghini, and every Aston Martin, and every Maserati, et cetera. "It's really great, but" will be in everything. I see no point at all to this.
Stevens24
Profile for Stevens24
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-27-2009 10:48
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The LF-A will end badly I think. Similar to the Porsche supercar effort. I don't ar wht it does I would never spend 400k on a Lexus/Toyota 0 pedigree 0 history of supercars and the risk of it being a complete flop. I will be surprised if they sell 100 of these.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura V10, LFA [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-27-2009 16:38
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
voodoobru wrote:
TonyE wrote:
We have an 09 Fit Sport with MT5.

It's the most fun Honda car I've had since the 89 CRX Si.

More fun to drive than the GSR, RSX-S, Prelude SH, Accord MT6, TLs, etc.... The only car that approaches it in fun factor is the EP-3 and even then the EP-3 was hobbled by its shortshifted engine, while the powertrain in the Fit is perfectly matched.

Just today, I did the cloverleaf 270 degree turn... on the final exit, I got to shift up to 3rd at about 60mph... which is midway as I hit the apex of the turn... There I was, nice cigar in my mouth, left hand on the wheel, right hand zipping down ...


stopped reading there



Yep.. I left you way behind... where you the guy in the Bimmer that was doing 30 mph and holding up the traffic? At least you were in the slow lane this time.


 
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