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  TOV News > Honda steeped in Green for the long haul > > Re: Where is the obvious?

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dezoris
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Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2009 12:26
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The perfect question is

"Are the parties responsible for premature withdrawal and sale of the F1 team at the least bit embarrassed, given the new team's season win."

I would have like to him answer that. You don't become a success without taking risks, and Honda is done with that which is why you can expect the bland lack luster lineup to come.

80honda
Profile for 80honda
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2009 12:32
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Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.
gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2009 12:54
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80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.

IMHO ALMS is far more exciting than F1 due to the inter-class racing and the diversity of engineering (instead of cars being regulated to the point where they're cookie cutter versions of each other). Thankfully Acura continues to participate and their involvement in the series has been very significant.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2009 12:57
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When would have been the right time to withdraw from F1? I'd rather see Honda stay afloat without an F1 team than be listing dangerously close to capsizing like Toyota.
dezoris
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Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2009 13:10
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I realize they are in other racing. But F1 despite many hating it is the flagship motorsport event.

You don't make an investment that large, bring on guys like Ross Brawn for one year and then quit. They could easily scaled it back like Brawn did.

It's just embarrassing, considering their whole BS marketing motto about falling off the ladder etc.

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2009 13:39
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dezoris wrote:
I realize they are in other racing. But F1 despite many hating it is the flagship motorsport event.

You don't make an investment that large, bring on guys like Ross Brawn for one year and then quit. They could easily scaled it back like Brawn did.


It is generally regarded that the Honda engine was a little down on power and the least 'driveable' of the engines in the paddock. Maybe they applied for permission to 'update' the engine but were refused by the FIA. With the engine regs frozen, they decided there was no way to improve so they left? Personally, I am not convinced that Brawn would have won the title with the Honda in the back.

Dren
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Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2009 14:29
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Honda was granted permission to 'equalize' their engine just like Renault did. The car was designed from the start to have a Honda motor in the back and take on a new transmission. I think the car would have been even better with the Honda motor, but we will never know.
Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2009 21:17
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dezoris wrote:
The perfect question is

"Are the parties responsible for premature withdrawal and sale of the F1 team at the least bit embarrassed, given the new team's season win."

I would have like to him answer that. You don't become a success without taking risks, and Honda is done with that which is why you can expect the bland lack luster lineup to come.

I think they've answered that question multiple times. The answer is, "No regrets, no embarrassment."

What is "premature withdrawal"? When would be a good time for a manufacturer to leave F1? They did it a full year before BMW. Maybe that means Honda had a well-timed withdrawal, and BMW had a late withdrawal. And all other manufacturers are just throwing away money.

F1 is marketing, plain and simple. You make it more than it is. If it was Honda that did the engineering on the Brawn car, then give Honda that credit and be satisfied. If you're disappointed that the Honda name wasn't on the car at the end of the most recent race, for marketing purposes... well then... I don't know what to tell you. The car was running a Mercedes engine, after all.

dezoris
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Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-23-2009 12:38
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Point is they quit without seeing it through. Against their own philosophy. They are playing it way too safe, this decision and their lackluster car lineup is further proof of it.

The F1 mistake, is historically bad. They went running out in a bad economy and folded many departments and programs that were innovating and it is going to set them back for years.

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-23-2009 13:29
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dezoris wrote:
Point is they quit without seeing it through. Against their own philosophy. They are playing it way too safe, this decision and their lackluster car lineup is further proof of it.

The F1 mistake, is historically bad. They went running out in a bad economy and folded many departments and programs that were innovating and it is going to set them back for years.


I disagree. In 1968 Mr. Honda himself pulled the company out of F1 to focus on more pressing environmental projects. The CVCC engine came out shortly there after. This was the first engine to meet the new Clean Air act without a catalytic converter. Who is to say what new things for our road cars will appear in the coming years from the former F1 engineers? (in fact, to turn it on it's head, is it possible that the 'lackluster car lineup' is due to the cost of the F1 program?)

rogazilla
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Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-23-2009 13:39
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It is a shame that Honda's name is not on the podium although by large the car was designed by Honda.

However, I do support Honda's decision to leave F1. I want Honda to continue R&D from racing and take them to the street. With Engine freeze and other strict regulation, I don't think manufacture can develop and innovate like they once were in F1.

F1 is marketing and there is no argument to that one but a lot of technology and ideas were started from F1. It was the perfect test ground and show case of new tech. No more.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-23-2009 14:38
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80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.


Participates? Or are you talking Factory efforts? Is it widely rumored Acura is leaving ALMS at the end of the season. Fernandez Lowe's Racing has sold its car to an European outfit.

The IRL? Wait till the IRL changes its engine formula and HPD stops making a profit on servicing thse "V8" racing engines.

Honda can and will be successful without motorsports. They will just attract a different clientle than those of us that remember the Arton Senna William/ Honda days and the Gannassi red target cars being driven by Zanardi.


danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-23-2009 15:36
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longhorn wrote:
80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.


Participates? Or are you talking Factory efforts? Is it widely rumored Acura is leaving ALMS at the end of the season. Fernandez Lowe's Racing has sold its car to an European outfit.

The IRL? Wait till the IRL changes its engine formula and HPD stops making a profit on servicing thse "V8" racing engines.

Honda can and will be successful without motorsports. They will just attract a different clientle than those of us that remember the Arton Senna William/ Honda days and the Gannassi red target cars being driven by Zanardi.


That was also another era for racing, very far from the nowadays circus. I'd say we lived a technological series back then, and we are moving towards a drivers show in present days.

Well before Honda decided to quit F1 I'd lost my own interest and questioned Honda's own on staying in the series. It all started with the engine freeze, and it only became more ridiculous every year since then.

There will be tones of racing fans out there in the future, but they won't be the same fans we were.

thepowerofhonda
Profile for thepowerofhonda
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 00:35
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80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.


Uh, yeah . . . and every time Audi or Peugeot showed up at events, (those are the far superior diesel cars by the way) Acura got stomped.

I'm not gloating. I'm embarrassed.

Acura essentially ran in the ALMS unopposed this year. You call that an achievement? Please, that's embarrassing. I suppose next you'll be telling me about how Honda won the Indy Car championship as well.

I will give congratulations to Real Time Racing however on a job well done and a hard earned win. In my book, they are the one bright spot for Honda racing fans at the moment.

danielgr
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Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 08:22
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thepowerofhonda wrote:
80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.
Uh, yeah . . . and every time Audi or Peugeot showed up at events, (those are the far superior diesel cars by the way) Acura got stomped.

I don't follow LeMans series, but Audi's and Peugeot's use diesel engines that have completely different regulations. It doesn't really make much sense to compare both, because there is no way of knowing if the difference comes from better engineering or simply rules.

Sure Honda could choose to race diesel cars if they felt their rules were nicer, but for Honda as a company it doesn't make any sense since they build hardly no diesels at all.

ciwai08
Profile for ciwai08
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 09:57
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I believe they all compete in the LMP 1 class which acura entered this past year. It was stroke of genius to see the advantages and go with diesels, not unlike renault's use of turbos in F1.
Stevens24
Profile for Stevens24
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 10:38
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While it is possible they would have contended, the Mercedes engine Brawn ran was significantly higher hp than the rest of the field.
NickDC5
Profile for NickDC5
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 13:06
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So let met get this straight, the racing Honda DOES participate in is awesome, successful, respected, recognized, and moves Honda in the right direction. The racing Honda DOES NOT participate in is wasteful, silly, and contradictory to Honda's new green direction.

So when I say "Why no F1, the very top of racing?" you say "Racing does not matter." But when someone says "They aren't racing enough," people jump on lower, lesser recognized and talk about how great and wonderful those events are?

Seems a little ridiculous. If you're gonna do it, do it right.

Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 15:44
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NickDC5 wrote:
So let met get this straight, the racing Honda DOES participate in is awesome, successful, respected, recognized, and moves Honda in the right direction. The racing Honda DOES NOT participate in is wasteful, silly, and contradictory to Honda's new green direction.

So when I say "Why no F1, the very top of racing?" you say "Racing does not matter." But when someone says "They aren't racing enough," people jump on lower, lesser recognized and talk about how great and wonderful those events are?

Seems a little ridiculous. If you're gonna do it, do it right.

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but it may be related to these couple of reasons:

One, all the other racing events listed are in the U.S., whereas F1 is not that popular here. That might be why the F1 thing doesn't bother many people on this site.

Two, F1 did the engine freeze recently, hurting what is arguably Honda's greatest trump card. At least in ALMS, etc, they have more freedom with engines.

Three, the Speed World Challenge seems like the most relevant of all racing, to me personally. Firstly because the cars actually look like road cars. It's nice to see an Acura sedan vs a BMW sedan, etc. And really that type of race could hardly be seen as wasteful or silly in the manner that F1 is.

Just a few thoughts.

King77
Profile for King77
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 18:40
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80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.


Are you serious? Acura has no competition in P1 and P2, all factory supported teams leaves ALMS. And when comperition returns at Sebring and Petit Le Mans, Acuras was easily beaten by Audi and Peugeot.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 20:22
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Stevens24 wrote:
While it is possible they would have contended, the Mercedes engine Brawn ran was significantly higher hp than the rest of the field.


But like I said, Honda was going to 'equalize' the motor like Renault was able to. I think the best thing about the Merc motor was the fat powerband. The Brawn suffered from using the Merc because it wasn't designed for it. Either way, we will never know what would have happened.

NSXforever
Profile for NSXforever
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 20:36
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King77 wrote:
80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.


Are you serious? Acura has no competition in P1 and P2, all factory supported teams leaves ALMS. And when comperition returns at Sebring and Petit Le Mans, Acuras was easily beaten by Audi and Peugeot.


x2....that other guy doesn't follow racing clearly...

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 23:26
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NickDC5 wrote:
So let met get this straight, the racing Honda DOES participate in is awesome, successful, respected, recognized, and moves Honda in the right direction. The racing Honda DOES NOT participate in is wasteful, silly, and contradictory to Honda's new green direction.

So when I say "Why no F1, the very top of racing?" you say "Racing does not matter." But when someone says "They aren't racing enough," people jump on lower, lesser recognized and talk about how great and wonderful those events are?

Seems a little ridiculous. If you're gonna do it, do it right.



The problem with F1 is that it is coasting on its momentum, much as you accuse Honda of doing.

F1 is no longer racing. It is a pissing contest about diffusers and which driver broke which regulation and should be fined. They have limited practically all development, and have instead turned it into a series of who can spend the most money in the wind tunnel.

It is unfortunate, but F1 isn't the prime motorsport it once was. Not that it is a problem because nearly every other form of once "legit" racing is pretty much the same way. Grassroots and smaller series is where its at.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 23:27
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longhorn wrote:
80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.


Participates? Or are you talking Factory efforts? Is it widely rumored Acura is leaving ALMS at the end of the season. Fernandez Lowe's Racing has sold its car to an European outfit.

The IRL? Wait till the IRL changes its engine formula and HPD stops making a profit on servicing thse "V8" racing engines.

Honda can and will be successful without motorsports. They will just attract a different clientle than those of us that remember the Arton Senna William/ Honda days and the Gannassi red target cars being driven by Zanardi.




In Honda's defense in IRL, they were kicking the crap out of everyone else so bad, the other suppliers all quit.

thepowerofhonda
Profile for thepowerofhonda
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 00:08
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danielgr wrote:
thepowerofhonda wrote:
80honda wrote:
Are you aware that Honda still participates in many forms of racing. Take the recent ALMS championship won by Acura.
Uh, yeah . . . and every time Audi or Peugeot showed up at events, (those are the far superior diesel cars by the way) Acura got stomped.

I don't follow LeMans series, but Audi's and Peugeot's use diesel engines that have completely different regulations. It doesn't really make much sense to compare both, because there is no way of knowing if the difference comes from better engineering or simply rules.

Sure Honda could choose to race diesel cars if they felt their rules were nicer, but for Honda as a company it doesn't make any sense since they build hardly no diesels at all.


Well if you're going to comment, then maybe you should comment on a form of racing that you DO follow.

Honda entered the SAME CLASS as the Audi and the Peugeot. That means they follow the SAME rules. NOT "completely different regulations".

So yes, it does make sense to compare them. And Yes Honda got their #@&%*'s kicked because of superior technology used by other teams not because of rules. They were severely outclassed by Audi and Peugeot.

Racing diesels is called research and development firstly. Secondly it's called keeping up with the competition on the track. And yes, they build plenty of diesels outside the US.

Sorry to come off so hard nosed, but it's a little irritating when I hear "I don't follow LeMans series, but . . . "




Ganplosive
Profile for Ganplosive
Re: Where is the obvious? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 01:22
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I do follow Le Mans AND just to be fair, Acura was not ready for the diesels at all during Sebring, period. I wouldn't blame Acura for getting "stomped" because quite honestly they designed, researched, and built a LMP1 car within 10 months of the the 09 season, where as Audi and Peugeot has been racing their diesels for well over 5+ years.

Fast forward to the Petit Le Mans: you got Patron Highcroft whose ARX got clipped by a car coming out of pit during practice and the entire team had to build a NEW CAR within 24 hours (http://www.nowpublic.com/sports/building-patron-highcroft-acura-less-24-hours), with only a couple days of testing / tuning on new parts. For the ARX to come as close as they did to the diesels, it was pretty amazing.

Lastly, diesels do play by a different set of regulations, but everyone plays by the same "rules". The most obvious is the highly contested fuel pump size, where Diesel fuels are given larger diameters for "thicker and slower" fuel. In addition, the output ability of a diesel engine is simply more powerful than a N/A gasoline engine. I wouldn't go as far as to call it superior technology, it's like racing against a V10 that weighs as much as your V8. Acura attempted to level the issue by implementing same sized tires both front and back giving the ARX an unparalleled cornering speed and grip. Unfortunately, you can imagine the strain and exhaust it exerts on the drivers having to withstand such high speed corners over extended periods of time vs a car that just straight up out guns you on the straights.

Nothing is as simple as you make it seem. The ALMS / Le Mans is incredibly complex and if you really look deeper into it the overall consensus IS THAT DIESELS, AS OF RIGHT NOW, DO ENJOY AN ADVANTAGE OVER GASOLINE ENGINES in permitted regulations. All of Le Mans agree that Diesels will require revamped regulations to level the playing field. However, not all is doom and gloom. Because of this handicap, gasoline engine entrants has had to innovate "outside" the box in addition to researching turbo's / superchargers (a real possibility for Acura, considering it's new "green" initiative on restricting engine size + boosting power; RDX). Furthermore, with the clinching of the championship, Patron Higcroft now has an automatic bid to the 24 hours of Le Mans, a new venue for Acura to send all its engineers complementing the team to seriously build up some credibility + face new competition.

Whether Patron Highcroft will go the the 24 hours of le mans or whether Acura will field support has yet to be known.


P.S Acura does not sell any diesels. Period.


 
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