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  TOV News > Honda steeped in Green for the long haul > > Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ?

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CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 20:01
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I did not want to start a heated and nasty debate on enviromental issue, again. However it seems that accepting Honda's new direction all depends on if you believe it is real and serious or not. I still do not wish this to be a piss match so please skip this if you... you know what I mean... I had been itching to say this for a while so I needed to get it out of my system. Internet is a bitch. Anyone can post.

I was a non-believer 6,8 months ago. I didn't know what to believe. I thought it was probably true but didn't know enough or wasn't sure.
I am a man with less educations thus I need to understand things in my own simple way.
Now I understand it in my own way. I welcome Honda's new direction. Let me tell you the way I understand it. I know, I know. This is me being mumbling, again. First I have to tell you a story, a true story.

When I was a kid, in 6th or 7th grade, I had a pure eureka moment. It was a rainy day. It was a kind of rain which rained steady and without much of winds. I was watching rain falling down when I came to this profound discovery. I discoverd that it wasn't raining not only there but all over the place in the world, and not only today but every day, every week, every month, every year someplace raining in the world !
I became restless. I looked around. I moved around. I wanted to tell someone my profound discovery.
I knew that it rains, water goes down to a river and to a vast ocean. But I thought that even how big an ocean was there must be a limit she could hold. I became so scared that if I could ever make to be an adult before we were all flooded under so much water.
A couple days later, I started to wonder that why we were not under the water now after thousands of years before us. I thought I had a hole in my theory. I haven't found the hole, yet.

Today, scientists are saying that melting water from ancient glaciers from all arond the world, would raise the sea level more than several feets ! I'd say "Bull shi$ !". There are 100, 200, 300 more water coming down from the sky every year.


There is a natural cycle for almost every thing in nature. This balance of natural cycle makes it possible for us, people to live in this mother Earth. It is too complex to comprehend for my small brain but it goes something like this, rain falls down, goes down to rivers and oceans, and evaporates back to the sky and falls back down again. Co2 we breathe out come from food we eat. And trees take Co2 from air, and such. Somethign like that. We could shift the balance of the cycle where we have too much Co2 in the sky than some place else. Which is not good, but over all amount of Co2 wouldn't change. Except volcanoes, which spew out Co2 from deep down in ground where it is not a part of today's natural cycle, adding Co2 to this equation.
We, humen actively dig a hole in ground to get fosil fuel, oil which is deep underground being domant for millions of years, to burn to release
co2 to add to this equation. We are not only shifting the balance of nature but adding to it, more than the natural cycle mechanism can handle.
You may say this is still the natural cycle. Yes, it may be but it took thusands of thusands of years for oil to go undergtound . We are doing it in 150 years to release Co2 from millions of years past.

I didn't understand why ethanol is added to gasoline. I think that ethanol is a kind of recycled fuel from natural cycle, even though emitting Co2 but not adding to the equation.
That is why Co2 emission from fosil fuels are main issue.
We still need to shift back the balance but we have to deal with extra Co2. We need to reduce, remove Co2 from the equation and store away from the natural cycle. Planting more trees is not going be enough.

I don't know if I explained well enough but I feel better now. I will be quiet. I will not annoy you any more.
I thank you very much.



owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 21:12
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Global warming is real. There is no question about that. The debate lies in how much of it is man-made.

I tend to side with the skeptical camp because everything I have read leads me that way, and everything that is actually scientific, or questions scientifically, also leads me that way. I believe it is a mostly natural process that we all must just learn to deal with, and it is consistent with the end of an Ice Age.

However, I have never had a problem with minimizing my footprint, nor have I had a problem with living in balance with my surroundings, consuming less energy, and spending less money.

Hybrids are mostly hype IMO, but the future prospective realities of hydrogen are very exciting.

Beet
Profile for Beet
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 22:06
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I guess if one is unsure, it's always better to play it safe. For those that don't believe in global warming, ask yourself - what if you're wrong? By the time you're convinced it's real, would it be too late? On the flip side, if the global warming camp is wrong, well, I guess we'll all have to deal with a cleaner world.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-24-2009 22:45
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What if we are wrong? That is a pretty invalid reason to accept such a large topic. Luckily, I can rely on the fact that I would have to ignore an awful lot of valid scientific questions in order for that to be plausible. So in short, no.

The problem is that there are too many large lingering questions, and ultimately, if the "global warming camp" is wrong, we don't get a "cleaner" world that has been rid of global warming, but what we do get is trillions of dollars that don't grow on trees wasted, which would include, jobs, infrastructure, productivity and all of the other things that are just as important to human success.

The science "for" global warming is hugely iffy at best, and yet I am supposed to completely disassembly by entire way of life, and just throw money at the problem. Not hardly. Then, most of the strategies concocted by the "believers" are half assed at best, because what if they are wrong and they have squandered everything? Not to mention that they can't seem to develop solutions that are any more sound than their hypothesis. Hybrids are a great example. We don't really clean up anything. We simply displace it to a 3rd world country. Out of sight out of mind, right?


roninsi02
Profile for roninsi02
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 15:03
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You hit the proverbial nail on the head Owe. The global warming an environmental crowd Are preaching a religion which they claim is fact.
Al Gores Nobel prize should be ripped from him especially since many of his propaganda and biased ideas have been debunked.
Trillions of tax dollars will go towards this giant scheme. It's all to make money not for the environment. They might as well call it a life tax. How are carbon taxes suppose to save the environment again?

owequitit wrote:
What if we are wrong? That is a pretty invalid reason to accept such a large topic. Luckily, I can rely on the fact that I would have to ignore an awful lot of valid scientific questions in order for that to be plausible. So in short, no.

The problem is that there are too many large lingering questions, and ultimately, if the "global warming camp" is wrong, we don't get a "cleaner" world that has been rid of global warming, but what we do get is trillions of dollars that don't grow on trees wasted, which would include, jobs, infrastructure, productivity and all of the other things that are just as important to human success.

The science "for" global warming is hugely iffy at best, and yet I am supposed to completely disassembly by entire way of life, and just throw money at the problem. Not hardly. Then, most of the strategies concocted by the "believers" are half assed at best, because what if they are wrong and they have squandered everything? Not to mention that they can't seem to develop solutions that are any more sound than their hypothesis. Hybrids are a great example. We don't really clean up anything. We simply displace it to a 3rd world country. Out of sight out of mind, right?



atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 15:50
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Whether global warming is real or not, the fact of the matter is that high oil consumption sends money into the pockets of hostile nations and terrorists worldwide.

Where do Iran and Venezuela get a lot of their revenue from? Oil.

People who simply want to continue using carbon-based fuels without making serious effort to curb their use are inadvertently supporting terrorists, dictators, and criminals who threaten civilized societies.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 17:49
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Well if you look at the global temperature for the past few years its actually been trending downward since 2001-2002 and the US happens to be seeing one of the coldest years on record.

So how could there be man-made global warming if we didn't adopt Kyoto, other countries like India and China continue to grow and operate without the same environmental conscience as we do, and all at the same time we're seeing several years in a row of cooling temperatures?

The Earth has been around for millions of years yet we only have concrete temperature data since the 1800's. So how could we really know what's happening either way? It's like trying to predict the 10 year future of the stock market based solely on today's closing. You wouldn't know that its cyclical and goes up and down and you wouldn't know if there's even a current trend starting or ending.

Something may be happening but anyone who says they definitely know is full of shit. There's simply not enough data. And I find it somewhat troublesome that we're being herded like sheep into hybrids, plug-ins, and squiggly light bulbs all for something that no one can know is actually occurring.

CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 18:16
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I meant that the global warming/global climate change and Honda's new direction. My own understanding of the issue. I meant nothing to do with terroris nor Oil producing contries.

I am me, alone. I am a crowd of one. This is my personal opinion. If you don't believe it, you don't believe it.
Who is Al Gore ?

I agree that "if we were wrong" is not a good reason to spend so much efforts, especially Honda. Are they doing this because they think in case of "if they are wrong ?" ?


I don't know the solutions. I've got no rain for it. I am not particularly doing anything for it. I think this a global, political, social problem rather than a personal one.
I needed to understand it in my own way.

This is the famous/infaous graph showing co2 level from the ice core from the Antarctica. It chabges about every 100 thousand years, up and down. I guess that is a big natural cycle of co2, but look at the last 150 years. I believe this.




If you don't believe, you don't believe.
I personally believe it.

sdc
Profile for sdc
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 18:22
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gofast182 wrote:
Well if you look at the global temperature for the past few years its actually been trending downward since 2001-2002 and the US happens to be seeing one of the coldest years on record.

So how could there be man-made global warming if we didn't adopt Kyoto, other countries like India and China continue to grow and operate without the same environmental conscience as we do, and all at the same time we're seeing several years in a row of cooling temperatures?

The Earth has been around for millions of years yet we only have concrete temperature data since the 1800's. So how could we really know what's happening either way? It's like trying to predict the 10 year future of the stock market based solely on today's closing. You wouldn't know that its cyclical and goes up and down and you wouldn't know if there's even a current trend starting or ending.

Something may be happening but anyone who says they definitely know is full of shit. There's simply not enough data. And I find it somewhat troublesome that we're being herded like sheep into hybrids, plug-ins, and squiggly light bulbs all for something that no one can know is actually occurring.



Although we can't be sure what effect it will have, carbon levels in our atmosphere are higher than they have been for almost 20 million years. The levels have historically been between 180 and 300 parts per million for the past 800,000 years, and currently are at 387 and rising rapidly. We are changing the structure of our atmosphere, there is no doubt about it. What is going to be the result of these changes is what we have to worry about.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/s/#1NvKII/www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008152242.htm/

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 19:54
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gofast182 wrote:
Something may be happening but anyone who says they definitely know is full of shit. There's simply not enough data. And I find it somewhat troublesome that we're being herded like sheep into hybrids, plug-ins, and squiggly light bulbs all for something that no one can know is actually occurring.


Here's some dam good data why we should drive more hybrids and use squiggly light bulbs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

If people aren't buying global warming science, they should buy staring down the barrel of a gun wielded by hostile parties.

atomiclightbulb
Profile for atomiclightbulb
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 20:12
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What I'm trying to say is that whether global warming is real or not is in the short term irrelevant to whether or not societies should try to reduce the use of fossil fuels, and oil/natural gas in particular.

Using resources more efficiently benefits the good players in the international system, while denying money and political clout to the troublemakers.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 20:18
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
Something may be happening but anyone who says they definitely know is full of shit. There's simply not enough data. And I find it somewhat troublesome that we're being herded like sheep into hybrids, plug-ins, and squiggly light bulbs all for something that no one can know is actually occurring.


Here's some dam good data why we should drive more hybrids and use squiggly light bulbs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

If people aren't buying global warming science, they should buy staring down the barrel of a gun wielded by hostile parties.


What do those a-holes have to do with global warming? Less dependence on foreign oil? Is that what you're trying to say? Well how about we tap into some of the vast oil reserves that are on US territory and use that as a bridge to other technologies? Politicians have stopped that progress which could have easily marginalized the use of middle eastern oil many years ago. But the overriding point here is that hybrids and plug-ins shouldn't be forced on people. It's no one's business if me or the guy down the street wants to drive a Tahoe. Maybe we need to tow a heavy trailer for our business, etc.

As for the barrel of a gun, our current foreign policy has only served to bolster those "guns" by capitulating: to the Russians by backing down on a European missile defense system, to Iran by threatening to negotiate *gasp* with them if they don't stop doing what they're continuing to do while we just talk, and to Venezuela by dignifying that mad man with visits and handshakes and spending more time listening to Chavez' speeches than we've met with General McChrystal while our soldiers are now facing an uphill struggle in Afghanistan. So IMO all of these "guns" being pointed at us are 100% at the feet of the current administration and could be prevented with less apologizing and more action which could be tied directly to our dependence on foreign oil.

CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 20:41
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Again, I don't wish this to be a piss match.

I wish this to be the issue of global warming/climate change caused by fosil fuels. That is my understanding.
Of course, just because I wished it it would necessary happen so but I still wish so, since I've started this post.

My point of my understanding is that fosil fuels are the main issue, thus Honda's new direction.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 21:34
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CR-V9 wrote:

My point of my understanding is that fosil fuels are the main issue, thus Honda's new direction.


I'm not sure. What is interesting is since the spotlight has been on carbon emissions many studies have been highlighting carbon emissions by natural phenomenon in nature and its way more than I would have thought. Not trying to say fossil fuels burned by man aren't contributing to carbon emissions but more and more sources are being highlighted.

CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 22:11
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gofast182 wrote:
CR-V9 wrote:

My point of my understanding is that fosil fuels are the main issue, thus Honda's new direction.


I'm not sure. What is interesting is since the spotlight has been on carbon emissions many studies have been highlighting carbon emissions by natural phenomenon in nature and its way more than I would have thought. Not trying to say fossil fuels burned by man aren't contributing to carbon emissions but more and more sources are being highlighted.


Hey, so You believe my theory. It rains everywhere all around the world. 100, 200, 300, 500 times more water are coming down from the sky. Melting snow from ancien glaciers is not going to raise the sea level.

CO2 emission from various places, where did they get
CO2 from ? Co2 we breath out come from food we eat.
Emission from Oil which are deep underground for millions of years being domant, is different. They are extra CO2 adding to the natural cycle of CO2.

When I look at the graph, I see a big rise in last 150 years after we have started use Oil.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-25-2009 22:58
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atomiclightbulb wrote:
Whether global warming is real or not, the fact of the matter is that high oil consumption sends money into the pockets of hostile nations and terrorists worldwide.

Where do Iran and Venezuela get a lot of their revenue from? Oil.

People who simply want to continue using carbon-based fuels without making serious effort to curb their use are inadvertently supporting terrorists, dictators, and criminals who threaten civilized societies.



This I don't disagree with, which is why I make the comment I do about using fewer resources.

However, let's take this logic just one step further and mine it 50 years down the road when everyone is driving fuel sipping hybrids. Let's play a big game of "what if?"

We are now selling hundreds of millions of hybrids per year, because we "made the right choice." So let's examine what the complications might be:

1) You are still dependent on oil, because even the most efficient of hybrids burns oil. Even cars like the Chevy Volt burn oil. If you have a pure EV, the odds are highly likely that whatever created the electricity you got from your plug burnt some form of oil to make it. Why? Because none of the strategies deal with the powergrid part of the problem, which oh by the way, accounts for a huge % of our total consumption.

So, if we are still dependent on oil, and we are still not willing to use our own supplies (you and I both know that political stance on that isn't going to change), then where do we get it? We get it from the same places we do now, which are hostile countries. Frankly, it doesn't matter if we send $1 per 100 miles to them or $10. They are still going to use it for what they are going to use it for. In many cases, it might be worse, because countries like Saudi Arabia, who use that money to subsidize living costs in their countries, won't be able to do that. Will this lead to the stabilization of governments? Not likely. Countries like Afghanistan and Venezuela have been living poor for centuries, so it isn't like we are going to affect their lifestyle any. By further driving them into poverty, we are simply going to destabilize them further, because where there is no economic success, there is a way in for governments like the Taliban. If you look historically at the world, the vast majority of the "poor" world, is run by dictators, warlords, and corruption. It isn't like that is going to magically change just because we stopped using oil and Bush isn't in office. So the first unintended consequence of "stopping dependence on foreign oil" is going to be economic ruin for some countries. Hopefully, the governments will be far sighted enough to tell us to go to hell, and will start to diversify as U.A.E. has done.

Also, for the record. As long as someone is "dependent on foreign oil," i.e. China, then the world oil producers will still get revenue. As long as we are seen as the drivers of change in the world lifestyle that the "evil" countries don't want, it won't matter where the revenue comes from, they will still use it against us. If we leave them high and dry, it will do nothing but add to the list of things they have to hate us for. That isn't going to help any.

So, now, we have left China in control of the world's energy resources, and have done very little to drive our own costs down, because unless you make the ENTIRE transportation infrastructure oil independent, then you aren't lowering your total demand enough to make a significant difference anyway. With all of our uses for oil, cars are NOT the major user.

Even if you were able to completely eliminate oil use in transport (good luck), you STILL need it, because we need it to make all of the plastic crap you want.

*We don't import oil from Iran, and thus we could reduce our oil consumption by 100% and it has no impact on Iran's operations. A fatal flaw in that arguement already, and we haven't even gotten started yet. We don't use much Venezuelan oil, and if we stopped completely, big fat Hugo Chavez would find a way to spin it into us trying to starve his people. It doesn't matter if the world believes him, it matters if his people do.

2) We have reduced our dependence on foreign oil by increasing our dependence on foreign battery packs. Currently, the product of choice is NiMH batteries.

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=an375.5XVUuA&refer=home

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Nickel

http://www.ifc.org/ifcext/enviro.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/gui_nickel_WB/$FILE/nickel_PPAH.pdf

As you can clearly see, Nickel is not free. It is also not located where we necessarily want it, and frankly, as world demand increases, so will the numbers of various places in which we must retrieve it. In addition, the refinement and creation of Nickel supplies create VERY toxic by products. So, how do you suppose places are going to feel when we start belching Sulfur Dioxide into their atmosphere instead of CO2? Frankly, CO2 is better for you, and while it is convenient to pretend it is the cause of global warming, another convenient fact that seems to go ignored, is the fact that it is a trace element in the atmosphere and isn't even up there on the list of atmospheric compounds and their potential affect on Global Warming (water vapor is both the most abundant and most effective by many orders of magnitude).

The reason CO2 is a target is simply the fact that the people who want to sell the idea of "man made global warming" have a target in CO2 because we produce it. Nevermind that we don't produce most of it, and nevermind that it isn't anywhere near the largest problem, and nevermind that most of the solutions to the "problem" are marginal at best. Let's nevermind that, let's just keep pouring billions of dollars to special interest organizations so their employees don't have to get real jobs that require tangible results like the rest of us. Oh, and by the way, research scientists that end up figuring out nothing, aren't cheap.

Anyway, now we have reduced an oil supply problem and complicated it with a Nickel supply problem. LiION batteries promise more potential, but right now there are major hurdles in getting them to work and be safe, because frankly, Lithium isn't exactly a cute little playful element either. The reality is that in some way or another, we are going to replace a dependency on one substance for another. In these cases, they are dirty, expensive, and we don't completely remove our dependence on foreign oil anyway. So now, we are dependent on two sets of potentially hostile governments instead of one. Oh, and don't kid yourself. When these products are brought to market at too high of an equilibrium price (which you WILL complain about), due to the scarcity of the resource on which they depend, then big "evil" corporations will go to 3rd world countries and steal it, because they have to in order to sell you a car. That will lead to the same problem we have with oil, because we NEED that product. You will be trading "big oil" for "big something else."

Since nickel and lithium are nasty to process, dig up, refine and package, I GUARANTEE you that N.I.M.B.Y. will make us go somewhere to get it, thus empowering other countries in some way shape or form.

But hey, don't worry, you will be able to enjoy your clear blue skies and false sense of security while poor people the world over are choking and dying on the toxic chemicals that make that blanket of security a reality.

3) We haven't even begun to scratch the reality of the "Inconvenient Truth" that global warming is most likely a natural process, is not majorly man made, and no real solutions have been proposed that are actually going to curb the problem. But man, we sure are padding special interest's pockets. Isn't it funny that groups like Greenpeace accuse oil of being "special interest" when the only difference with them is that they tell us their "special interest" is for our own good?

4)As long as US citizens require that we don't drill here, we will never eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. Once we are talking heavy metals (by the way, nickel is one of the elements we have been trying to control as a waste product for decades in our water supply), we have simply shifted the blame from one bad industry to another.

Frankly, the whole "global warming" thing reminds me of the global cooling scare, and the hole in the ozone layer, neither of which panned out as we thought they would because the unfortunate reality is that we don't have the level of understanding required to definitively troubleshoot such a problem. How inconvenient that we really aren't the masters of the universe, eh?


CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 00:09
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Owequitit,

I didn't claim to know the solutions. I didn't claim that Hybrid will solve the problem, either. I was talking about the reason I believe the fosil fuels are the main issue of this CO2 emission. My personal belief.
I have no idea what the solutions are, none. All things you mentioned of geo-political issues must be true. But I don't think that would not make this untrue. I aslo think that we have to make an educated guess of the problem to deal with it. Japan has sent a satelite to measure the tempretures of the Earth. So do other countries researches and studies while the temperatures are rising and the climates are changing. I could also say that it is convenient to believe the Fosil fuels are not the causes.
Didn't we stop using CFC(?), world wide ban ?, for the Ozone hole ? I thought they did find the direct evidence of deletion of Ozone. You didn't believe that, either. Then this is going to be the piss match. Which I don't wish.

You don't believe it, so you don't believe it.
I believe it in my own way.


By the way, I think China is an oil importer, now.





owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 00:42
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CR-V9 wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
CR-V9 wrote:

My point of my understanding is that fosil fuels are the main issue, thus Honda's new direction.


I'm not sure. What is interesting is since the spotlight has been on carbon emissions many studies have been highlighting carbon emissions by natural phenomenon in nature and its way more than I would have thought. Not trying to say fossil fuels burned by man aren't contributing to carbon emissions but more and more sources are being highlighted.


Hey, so You believe my theory. It rains everywhere all around the world. 100, 200, 300, 500 times more water are coming down from the sky. Melting snow from ancien glaciers is not going to raise the sea level.

CO2 emission from various places, where did they get
CO2 from ? Co2 we breath out come from food we eat.
Emission from Oil which are deep underground for millions of years being domant, is different. They are extra CO2 adding to the natural cycle of CO2.

When I look at the graph, I see a big rise in last 150 years after we have started use Oil.



Breathing isn't different from burning fossil fuels. Emitting CO2 is emitting CO2. The atmosphere doesn't care where it comes from. It only cares that it is there, and that is if it actually makes a significant difference.

The fact of the matter is that as long as natural processes (whatever they may be) are causing the majority of CO2 production, then eliminating the "burning" of fossil fuels isn't going to slow the acceleration of "global warming." Since natural process, i.e. biodegredation, breathing, etc continue to account for the majority of CO2 production, then if global warming is real, then we are in trouble.

The other problem that nobody mentions is that we seem to have no problem removing the Earth's ability to recycle CO2. Remember that some forms of life actually flourish on CO2.

There have also been a lot of other issues in the last 150 years that have nothing to do with the burning of fossil fuels. Deforestation, population growth, etc.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 00:53
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CR-V9 wrote:
Owequitit,

I didn't claim to know the solutions. I didn't claim that Hybrid will solve the problem, either. I was talking about the reason I believe the fosil fuels are the main issue of this CO2 emission. My personal belief.
I have no idea what the solutions are, none. All things you mentioned of geo-political issues must be true. But I don't think that would not make this untrue. I aslo think that we have to make an educated guess of the problem to deal with it. Japan has sent a satelite to measure the tempretures of the Earth. So do other countries researches and studies while the temperatures are rising and the climates are changing. I could also say that it is convenient to believe the Fosil fuels are not the causes.
Didn't we stop using CFC(?), world wide ban ?, for the Ozone hole ? I thought they did find the direct evidence of deletion of Ozone. You didn't believe that, either. Then this is going to be the piss match. Which I don't wish.

You don't believe it, so you don't believe it.
I believe it in my own way.


By the way, I think China is an oil importer, now.







There hasn't been any pissing in this thread yet. There is a difference between debate and pissing.

1) The rise in the Earth's temperature is consistent with the exiting of an Ice Age. It is the only way we can exit an Ice Age. We have been doing that for several hundred million years now. The increase in temperature that is currently being attributed to "global warming" starts well before the period of industrialization and the burning of fossil fuels on a wide scale.

2) I didn't say the hole in the ozone layer didn't exist. But there are a couple of points that the "scientific" community just sort of pretended didn't happen.

The first of those is that they discovered a specific type of cloud that develops in the polar region that accelerates the development of the ozone hole. It forms because of the unique conditions in that region.

Secondly, the banning of CFC's didn't stop the acceleration of the development of the hole, and in fact, it is larger today than it every has been. They claimed that the CFC's would continue to exist for years, which may be true, but that doesn't explain the fact that the hole contracts and expands. Scientists also originally attributed the existance of that hole to CFC's and it was later discovered that it had been there all along.

Thirdly, per their recommendations, CFC's were eliminated and replaced with other chemicals to achieve the same purpose. In most cases, those other chemicals proved to be no better overall than the ones they replaced. I.E. it was the law of unintended consequences, just like a switch away from hybrids is going to have unintended consequences. Potentially grave ones at that.

Ultimately, it is all a result of human consumption and natural process. It is hard for humans to admit that they don't control their destiny. It is also hard for humans to admit that as long as we continue to exist and consume, we are GOING to put environmental pressure on our ecosystem. Even if we cease to be, there will still be environmental pressure on our ecosystem because other species would continue to exist. Unless we wipe out all forms of life on this planet, there are going to be problems associated with consumption and pressure on the ecosystem.

Scientists need a catastrophe to sell the public because that is how they get their large sums of money. Without their large sums of money, they can't create what they think is a "better life."

Like I said, when you look at the problem from a macro scale, and factor in history pre-industrialization, the arguement for global warming gets weak. The more you probe outside of the convenient theory, the weaker it gets. Humans alone produce nearly enough CO2 through natural breathing to offset most of the burning of fossil fuels, and you haven't even included the billions of other species on earth yet.

Stevens24
Profile for Stevens24
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-26-2009 14:26
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If it is really global warming how come they all refer to it as climate change now? when I was in school in the early 70s we were told that another ice age would wipe out much of the worlds population. Then it was the rainforest in south america that would ruin everything except they forgot to mention that the forest's in the rest of the world had growth accleration during that time.

The reality is that a volcanic explosion puts more co2 and other pollutants in the atmosphere than man. should we cap them? In my opinion Honda is being a profit based company and jumping on the bandwagon. Is it real IMO no will it cripple our economy YES is that what the zealots(and yes that's what they are) want absolutely. The irony will come after some silly "cap and trade" legislation is passed and Wall Street makes Billions off of the "trade".

CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2009 20:35
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First, I regreted I had started this thread.
The thing is that I don't have access to the internet at work and have more than 3hr commute a day to work. It is easy to let it go once a week starts. I apologize not to respond to you guys promptly. If it were in Japanese it would have been easier. I would whip all your asses and... no, I lied.
The fact is that I can not think quick on my feet. I need some time to think, ponder, wonder before I compose my thoughts. I am from the age of letter writting age.
As I said I needed to get this out of my system.

Before I sign off, I'd like to say one more thing. It seems that there is this notion that If you believeed this stuff you'd have to behave in sertain way. or you'd have to do something drastic, like having to buy nothing but an insight. Personaly this issue is low in priority in my life. There are more pressing matters in my life. I've just run out of wine last night for god's sake..
However, it does concern me since I believe it is true and serious. That was why I was pleased when I saw Honda's new direction.

WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-29-2009 22:02
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People have tried to explain it by using statistics or other stuff. But I continue to believe that the world indeed is changing. It's not just about our climate. It's the whole earth itself. After that devastating tsunami-causing earthquake in Indonesia a few years ago, a few more has occured again, the most recent one in Padang (a place in Indonesia) and again thousands of people have died or injured and many more are homeless. We see typhoon warning regularly now. It used to be a 'novelty' when a dangerous typhoon visits Asia. I have seen arguements that mankind is not 'powerful' enough to influence the world (weather, etc) but that doesn't justify that we don't do anything.

For reasons like these, I see complete justification in Honda's push for hybrids and their environment focus. However, I believe that a hybrid engine does not ALWAYS mean a wimphy weak engine. We can do hybrid for pure fuel economy. I firmly Honda can do a proper performance biased hybrid, or even 1 with a good balance of both. To me, the enthusiast should support hybrid but we deserve a 'proper' implementation, a truly sporty engine and not a half-assed effort. Honda needs to understand this and soon. They cannot alienate their legions of loyal fans in their push for hybrid. And I for one, thinks enthusiasts are equally as concerned about the well-being of the world as anyone else.

So, no I do NOT believe supporting the environment and Honda's hybrid and alternate fuel efforst -must- imply we all drive Insights and Prius and that we all accept half-assed efforts without any question. A good sporty hybrid coupe for e.g., should be able to deliver close to 100hp/l specific power output, revs like a race engine and yet give good low-end/mid-range driveability, and when driven with restraint, it should outdeliver the fuel economy of what Honda's DOHC VTEC/i-VTEC engines have been delivering. I for one continues to have enough faith in Honda that they still have the R&D engineers who can do that.

If only they will just wake up and get out of the shell they have been living under for the past few years.

Jeez....

CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: Is the Issue of global warming real and serious as Honda thinks ? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-31-2009 15:51
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I didn't think anybody was watching this thread anymore. I thought I could sneak in to close out for my own ego. Speaking of ego, I did this because my 2 finger typing is getting a little better.
As I said I am not a good person to explain this issue. If a scientist explained this in detail to me I would not be able to even understand it. I wasn't sure about this before. My sticking points were Why is Co2 from oil matter and why do they add Alchohol to gasoline ? I am a simple man. I only need a simple answer in 5th grade terms to satisfy me.

Eco system, natural cycle... I can't understand it. I can't explain it. What I know is that they make everything in balance in this Mother Earth for a human for thousands of years. I understand it as what comes around goes around.
I should have said the natural cycle of C-arbon instead of Co2. The way I see is that I am carbon based, eating food(carbon/protein) and chemically breaking down to something else for my body to use. When I breath out I mix carbon in my body with oxygen to form Co2. It still comes from food I eat. Carbon in food. Where did they come from ? From soil, from air ? What comes around goes around. A tree takes Co2 in, then store it within. It may die and rot, and be broken down to dust, compost, soil. Or it may burn by a fire then goes back out co2 to the sky.
Of course whole Eco system is way too much for me to understand it but this is keeping water, air, trees, animales, fishes, everything going. What different from this today's eco-system are fosil fuels. Oil has been deep underground for millions of years bothering nobody, just being domant. We are releasing Co2 from the part which is not today's eco-system. Thus adding Alcohol to gasoline is adding recycled co2/alcohol. It is still not good to have too much Co2 in the sky, in one place than some place else in the natural cycle, shifting the balance.

Water Vapour is the main gass of the greenhouse effect, I believe. Water vapour in the sky, get together, form clouds, become droplets and rain down, and evapolate back up to the sky. A certain amount of water vapour is up there to keep tempreture nice for a human. This balancing act is going for thousands of years.
What they say is that Co2 is a small part of the greenhouse gass but this is the one we are adding to it. It may raise the tempreture in a small amount, but then the small higher tempreture causes air to hold more moisture/water vapour, and thus water vapour raises the tempreture... Like the Aids doesn't kill you directry but suppress your immune system and you'll die from other illness. Like a plastic explosive needs a detonator. I guess Nature likes this cycle thing.

This is how I see it. It sounds good enough to me.
Some say we have already past the point of no return. I don't know. I have no idea. I hope not. If Water vapour are acting up alredy and raising the tempreture, we will need to... I've got no idea.
Talking about Honda, look at Norway. They've been going green from 1970's.
Do I feel guilty redlining my CR-V ? Honestly I don't. I do feel guilty that I don't feel guilty redlining my CR-V though. That may be because I live in the NA where I don't see too much effects of climate change, yet. I do feel it is getting strange but one person's perception is not scientifically sound, I guess.

Sorry, as I said I can't sort my thoughts well.
As for CR-Z having only 6300rpm redline, I don't think it is necessary bad thing. It would be bad for people who lease because they'd have to take it and drive it as is.
But for the secondary market, It may revitalize Honda tuner business again. I thought Honda was killing the grass-root tuner market when they came up with type-r, Si-r, Si. I thought small Honda tuners(business) were the ones who made Honda cars enthusiasts' cars. I would not under estimate those people's enginuities. Who says they can't tweek the computer and let it rip up to 7500rpm with a new cam, boost the battery output or adding a capaciter like a NO2. This may be the start of revival of small Honda tuners, again.




 
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