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  TOV News > Honda Exhibits World Premiere V4 Concept Model, Signifying a New Era at the International Motorcycle > > Re: Those Wheels...

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CarPhreakD
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Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2008 20:52
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Never mind the engine, but those wheels alone...

Apparently when asked about the hubless wheels, Honda said that they are in fact, "possible".

I would say that I would LOVE to see Honda make this, but while the oval-piston V4 is a big possibility, I'm not sure if hubless wheels would be too.... to bad =D

I believe the last oval-piston engine Honda made (NS500) "failed" because metallurgy and machine tolerances were not good enough for the oval shape to succeed (especially when it came to the piston rings). But I guess technology has advanced to the point where it's reliable today.

It's been a while since I've seen an ultra-futuristic concept bike that's lustworthy and mind boggling, and for it to come from Honda is fitting considering the lack of surprises recently =)

CarPhreakD
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Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2008 20:54
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I meant NR500
klui_188
Profile for klui_188
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 03:52
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The NR750 was well regarded as a bike well ahead of its time considering the features it showcased (oval piston, digital speedo, signal integrated side mirror, center-up exhaust, twin sided radiators, CF louvers, Titanium tinted windscreen, etc).

With today's technology I wouldn't be surprised if Honda decided to revisit this oval piston concept. The idea sure is cool... but I would not think it's necessary to have two con rod to support the piston anymore (for a variety of reasons...)

Anyway, this hubless wheel design sure looks cool. I wonder if they could make it cost effective enough for production use though (provided the concept works).

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 12:40
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I suppose it would be a halfway house to the rim-mounted swing-arm, which would be far better.

I cannot see the sealing and drive transmission problems being any easier, though.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 12:42
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klui_188 wrote:
With today's technology I wouldn't be surprised if Honda decided to revisit this oval piston concept. The idea sure is cool... the piston anymore (for a variety of reasons...)



Those are a work of art to behold and to hold! A tad expensive to machine though.

So very beautiful...

94sir
Profile for 94sir
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 14:58
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Nick Graves wrote:
Those are a work of art to behold and to hold!


Have you had the pleasure?!

Although the NR was very nice, it was never renowned for having enormous reserves of power, and it was pretty heavy too. If memory serves me correctly, it came out about the time the first Fireblade came out with about the same power, albeit the CBR had an extra 150 odd cc. But not long after that was a GSXR750 with similar levels of power from it's "boring" circular pistoned engine. If Honda wanted to show that their exotic oval setup was superior, I think they failed.

Still, what a golden period that was for Honda fans...NR, CBR900RR, NSX, VTEC, McLaren - Senna...these are all the reason why I love Honda. What happened?!

jkangmpc
Profile for jkangmpc
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 16:52
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Think the original oval cylinders were to take advantage of loop holes in regulation and make 4 stroke engine to keep up with 2 strokes. 2 strokes are mostly out and I think it's all that important. And most of those loopholes have been closed. Besides, i'm sure they can come up with some interesting wat to cram more valve surfaces on the head than using an oval or elliptical combustion chambers with the stuffs they have now. IMHO, circular crosssectional combustion chamber is just a small part of problem in advancement of IC engines or any fuel burning enignes nowadays. Retrospectively, think the whole oval thing was PR stunt and relatively futile for engineering advancement.

Out of racing apps, cost wise, turning and griding something cylindrical w tight tolerance is far cheaper than any other shape at this point, even with the advancement of machining tech. Figure CNC mills, Wire EDM, electroetching and cnc vertical honing machines can hold good tolerances on oval shape but nothing beats the good old lathe and ID/OD grinders in cost effectiveness for mass production.

Now it would be cool if they just make a fast electric bike with hubless wheels itegrated wtih internal motors for 2wd...

klui_188 wrote:
The NR750 was well regarded as a bike well ahead of its time considering the features it showcased (oval piston, digital speedo, signal integrated side mirror, center-up exhaust, twin sided radiators, CF louvers, Titanium tinted windscreen, etc).

With today's technology I wouldn't be surprised if Honda decided to revisit this oval piston concept. The idea sure is cool... but I would not think it's necessary to have two con rod to support the piston anymore (for a variety of reasons...)

Anyway, this hubless wheel design sure looks cool. I wonder if they could make it cost effective enough for production use though (provided the concept works).


NickDC5
Profile for NickDC5
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 17:10
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I don't think it's about loopholes necessarily. It's a brilliant concept, and one that follows a tradition Honda's been trying to follow for a while now. Honda's been about keeping as much of the weight in the center of the bike as possible. You can get an engine that isn't as long but has the same displacement if you switch from circle to oval. Even if it has the same total amount of weight, the fact that it's more toward the center of the bike makes it very desirable to Honda. I think this has been their mentality with the NSR, placement of weight on the bike.



This way you can have the same stroke, but an engine that's not as long.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 18:32
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94sir wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
Those are a work of art to behold and to hold!


Have you had the pleasure?!

Although the NR was very nice, it was never renowned for having enormous reserves of power, and it was pretty heavy too. If memory serves me correctly, it came out about the time the first Fireblade came out with about the same power, albeit the CBR had an extra 150 odd cc. But not long after that was a GSXR750 with similar levels of power from it's "boring" circular pistoned engine. If Honda wanted to show that their exotic oval setup was superior, I think they failed.

Still, what a golden period that was for Honda fans...NR, CBR900RR, NSX, VTEC, McLaren - Senna...these are all the reason why I love Honda. What happened?!



Uh... Nick was talkign about the wheels...

xcess
Profile for xcess
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 21:42
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a big applaud to the retarded designers with this concept.

These wheels can go on water PERHAPS? SNOW?

CarPhreakD
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Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 22:03
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xcess wrote:
a big applaud to the retarded designers with this concept.

These wheels can go on water PERHAPS? SNOW?



You mean a big "applause". If you want to mock someone/thing, do it properly.

2007RC46SP2
Profile for 2007RC46SP2
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 23:27
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xcess wrote:
a big applaud to the retarded designers with this concept.

These wheels can go on water PERHAPS? SNOW?



their gonna need some real rubber. But hubless wheels are NOT impossible.

klui_188
Profile for klui_188
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2008 06:00
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NickDC5 wrote:
I don't think it's about loopholes necessarily. It's a brilliant concept, and one that follows a tradition Honda's been trying to follow for a while now. Honda's been about keeping as much of the weight in the center of the bike as possible. You can get an engine that isn't as long but has the same displacement if you switch from circle to oval. Even if it has the same total amount of weight, the fact that it's more toward the center of the bike makes it very desirable to Honda. I think this has been their mentality with the NSR, placement of weight on the bike.



This way you can have the same stroke, but an engine that's not as long.


Exactly my thought!!

And what Nick showed was an I4. Now imagine if you will on a V4! The width will be shortened significantly!!

ipribadi
Profile for ipribadi
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2008 12:46
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klui_188 wrote:
NickDC5 wrote:
I don't think it's about loopholes necessarily. It's a brilliant concept, ... You can get an engine that isn't as long but has the same displacement if you switch from circle to oval. ... the fact that it's more toward the center of the bike makes it very desirable ...
This way you can have the same stroke, but an engine that's not as long.

Exactly my thought!!

And what Nick showed was an I4. Now imagine if you will on a V4! The width will be shortened significantly!!
I'm not sure if cyl block dimension and weight is such a worth while advantage.

For a given piston head area, compared to an oval cyl, a circular cyl has less sealing/contact length between the piston and wall.

This results in two things:
1. Less compression loss
2. Less friction

If cyl block width was the issue, a V4 setup already resolves this. I'm still not sure what are the advantages of an oval cyl.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2008 14:01
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ipribadi wrote:
klui_188 wrote:
NickDC5 wrote:
I don't think it's about loopholes necessarily. It's a brilliant concept, ... You can get an engine that isn't as long but has the same displacement if you switch from circle to oval. ... the fact that it's more toward the center of the bike makes it very desirable ...
This way you can have the same stroke, but an engine that's not as long.

Exactly my thought!!

And what Nick showed was an I4. Now imagine if you will on a V4! The width will be shortened significantly!!
I'm not sure if cyl block dimension and weight is such a worth while advantage.

For a given piston head area, compared to an oval cyl, a circular cyl has less sealing/contact length between the piston and wall.

This results in two things:
1. Less compression loss
2. Less friction

If cyl block width was the issue, a V4 setup already resolves this. I'm still not sure what are the advantages of an oval cyl.



In the real world, probably not much to be honest... back then, it was used as a way for Honda to get around the "4-cylinder for 4-strokes rule", allowing them to basically have the power advantages of a V8 engine

jkangmpc
Profile for jkangmpc
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2008 16:07
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going back to the wheels, it's a concept.

the hubless design has been used in rolling stock and chassis on retrofitted cars for autoshows before, I think.
DARPA at one point gave it a serious consideration for an 8X8 or something like a hmmwv and deemed that a huge geared hub and on board brake installed on the drive train is more durable than hubless.

given the friggin huge bearing u'd need to fit into the rim and the huge 'hub.' I don't think manufaturing is all that cheap, either.

klui_188
Profile for klui_188
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2008 09:46
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jkangmpc wrote:
going back to the wheels, it's a concept.

the hubless design has been used in rolling stock and chassis on retrofitted cars for autoshows before, I think.
DARPA at one point gave it a serious consideration for an 8X8 or something like a hmmwv and deemed that a huge geared hub and on board brake installed on the drive train is more durable than hubless.

given the friggin huge bearing u'd need to fit into the rim and the huge 'hub.' I don't think manufaturing is all that cheap, either.


Given the current technologies in auto / moto industries I seriously doubt there are cost / technology incentives to migrate to this hubless design... not until there is a technological breakthrough anyway. Also, interestingly the concept does seem to suggest that they'll fit the bike with skinny tires (sort of resemble to the trend in auto industry that all of a sudden everyone is slamming big-a$$ wheels onto their cars with skinny tires to convey the sporty look).

Overall, the concept does do one thing well; and that is spiking other people's interest, desire, & imagination toward advancing their technology.

Looking further into this concept, I wonder (if turned into production) how they'd address the front wheel turning issue? I'm ASSUMING they'll still use the tried & true inverted fork setup; but that could be thrown out immediately too as Yamaha had demonstrated before with the fork-less design (back in 80's?); albeit not very successful (at least commercially). Any thoughts?





94sir
Profile for 94sir
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2008 13:29
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Uh... I'm pretty sure Nick was talking about the pistons ;-P
94sir
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Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2008 13:39
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NickDC5 wrote:
I don't think it's about loopholes necessarily. It's a brilliant concept, and one that follows a tradition Honda's been trying to follow for a while now. Honda's been about keeping as much of the weight in the center of the bike as possible. You can get an engine that isn't as long but has the same displacement if you switch from circle to oval. Even if it has the same total amount of weight, the fact that it's more toward the center of the bike makes it very desirable to Honda. I think this has been their mentality with the NSR, placement of weight on the bike.



This way you can have the same stroke, but an engine that's not as long.



I think those ovals were actually the other way around...like turned 90 degrees from the position in your diagram. Remember these engines had two conrods and eight valves per cylinder. The crank would have been a similar length to a tiny V8...

94sir
Profile for 94sir
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2008 13:46
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It sure doesn't look like width was a big concern!


NickDC5
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Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2008 14:46
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Indeed, it isn't for weight balance at all it seems. It's in order to get as much air in there as possible, just like what you said, like a V8 but with the pistons molded together.

Pretty brilliant design, assuming the materials can withstand it. This is why I love engines/Honda.

klui_188
Profile for klui_188
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-12-2008 10:17
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NickDC5 wrote:
I don't think it's about loopholes necessarily. It's a brilliant concept, and one that follows a tradition Honda's been trying to follow for a while now. Honda's been about keeping as much of the weight in the center of the bike as possible. You can get an engine that isn't as long but has the same displacement if you switch from circle to oval. Even if it has the same total amount of weight, the fact that it's more toward the center of the bike makes it very desirable to Honda. I think this has been their mentality with the NSR, placement of weight on the bike.



This way you can have the same stroke, but an engine that's not as long.



94sir wrote:
It sure doesn't look like width was a big concern!




NickDC5 wrote:
Indeed, it isn't for weight balance at all it seems. It's in order to get as much air in there as possible, just like what you said, like a V8 but with the pistons molded together.

Pretty brilliant design, assuming the materials can withstand it. This is why I love engines/Honda.



Indeed, now if you could just imagine "WHAT IF".... What if this time around they don't rotate the piston orientation and keep it like NICKDC5 drew earlier on in a V4 fashion?? That for one could potentially make for a very skinny engine block and help centralize all the weight toward center of the bike! Not to mention it could maximize the air intake as well...


NickDC5
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Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2008 00:11
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I thought about that earlier, that is why didn't they rotate the pistons 90 degrees. I concluded the difficulty would be in placing the intake manifold- because it'd have to be split sideways across the sides of the engine instead of straddling the top if they wanted to maximize the airflow into the engine.

It's hard to build a better mousetrap. But Honda tries. :)

jkangmpc
Profile for jkangmpc
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2008 18:18
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Yeah, and see the tangled up intake and ex manifolds loolikng like uncooked ramen noodle to get around the valve stems along with additoinal 10 pounds of metal for the value actuation.

putting valves across like honda did means one camshaft across.

if they are in the other direction, u get into double the cams. Or try series of rocker arms, then stronger springs to offset the mass, then stronger values to withstand the force, then stronger springs to offset the mass in values, which means rocker arm has to get thicker to withstand spring...

There's a practical limit to engine width, since it's harder to engineer the rider to be thinner, or get more traction out of thinner tires. Sure a huge i-4 is wide, thus the v-4's but for now chassis balance and aero dynamics in racing doesn't require anything more exotic at this point.

klui_188 wrote:


Indeed, now if you could just imagine "WHAT IF".... What if this time around they don't rotate the piston orientation and keep it like NICKDC5 drew earlier on in a V4 fashion?? That for one could potentially make for a very skinny engine block and help centralize all the weight toward center of the bike! Not to mention it could maximize the air intake as well...



carless
Profile for carless
Re: Those Wheels... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-15-2008 16:25
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Those wheels look really cool, but I'm also a little bit worried about the unsprung weight. I'm quite sure it will non even come into the near of a mass production at least in the next 10 years. But the design is great, it almost looks like the computer animated "bikes" in the movie "The Tron".
Some words about the oval piston engine, because it is something I was really interested in. Someone already said here that it only made sense to get around the "4-cylinder" rule in the road racing GP500 class in the late '70s. It's perfectly true. Here the whole story: that time Honda wanted to come back to motorcycle racing and wanted to beat the 2-stroke 4 cylinder 500 bikes with a 4-stoke one. They calculated and came to the conclusion it is only possible with an 8 cylinder engine, but the rules only allowed 4 cylinders for both 2- and 4-strokes.
One day a young engineer, Soichiro Irimajiri (left Honda some years ago as a director and went to Sega) came with the idea of oval pistons. Practically an 8 cylinder engine with pistons sticked together and with two connecting rods per piston.
By the way, the chief of the engineers group of Irimajiri was a certain Takeo Fukui that time at HRC, I think you know the name ...
Honda had the biggest problems really with the piston rings, but they solved that somehow and it was their big secret for years. It was not without a reason, why the first NR750 was bought in an auction by the Belgian Ducati importer.
The racing bike (NR500) was not only special because of its engine. It had in 1978 a Kevlar monocoque frame. I still have a picture of it somewhere, showing how it looked under the fairings.
It was not really successful because it was practically unrideable, the high compression and high revving engine (up to 19000/min) had an extreme engine braking, since they didn't have those slipping clutches that time, the bike was almost dangerous to ride. Some years later they had some better results in endurance races with an NR750, but they changed in the GP500 class to 2-stroke engines and the rest is history, you perhaps still know the name Freddie Spencer.
The oval piston engines are really problematic for several reasons, the shape of the combustion chamber is far from optimal and you still need two connecting rods for one piston (otherwise you will have some not wanted hard contact to the cylinder bore), therefore an inline 4 cylinder engine wouldn't bring any advantage regarding size, on the contrary it would be almost twice as long.
With the directions of the pistons on the drawing here you would need four parallel crankshafts.
I've read somewhere that VW and also Ducati also made some oval piston engines years ago, with those ellipsoid shaped pistons on the drawings here, but they also realized that it is very expensive to produce them, so gave up the idea.
Anyway Honda already patented some very interesting things years ago, for example:
- rectangular shaped pistons
- ball valves instead of the current type
It is not a joke, but I don't think they will ever show up in real internal combustion engines.








 
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