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  TOV News > Honda's Insight Concept Makes its World Debut > > Re: Wise Man's Prius? ..............Prius > Insight ...

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Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Wise Man's Prius? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-07-2008 23:10
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dezoris, thank you for your kind words. Our devotion to the Insight Classic makes us two of a kind.

Here are my final words on this thread:
I, too, was initially disappointed that Honda would call a car "Insight" without having that car surpass the groundbreaking fuel efficiency of the original. But I remain optimistic that the new Insight will surpass not only the Civic hybrid, but perhaps even the current Prius.

Csaba Csere in Car & Driver's YouTube video about the new Insight implies it will have a smaller battery pack than the Civic hybrid. That gives it a chance of being lighter than the Civic. So if it's more aerodynamic, it should be able to get better gas mileage. If the cost constraints and meeting all global safety requirements make the Insight a heavier car, then just mirroring the Civic hybrid's numbers will be easy to understand (though disappointing).

Honda is pretty much the world's smallest remaining independent car company (certainly the smallest successful one). That they continually stay at the forefront of automotive technology is a great tribute to their prescient vision, engineering prowess, and management acumen.

Clearly, there are great things still to come. Perhaps after the CR-Z and Fit hybrids are on the road, and oil is $300/bbl Honda will come up with an even better nameplate than Insight (though I can't imagine a better one) for another groundbreaking wondercar the world will welcome with open arms.

[Disclaimer: my geeky bias is partially due to the Insight baseball cap a Honda employee gave me back in 2000--the only support I have ever received from the company.]



danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Wise Man's Prius? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2008 08:38
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dezoris wrote:
Insightman wrote:
dezoris wrote:
Where is the real follow up to the Insight?

There won't be because people don't care about better fuel economy, they want the hyrbid badge, they want 4 doors with an auto trans and they don't want to pay a lot of money.

I get it.

It's just too bad even the enthusiasts on this site don't expect more.


dezoris: I feel your pain. Honda's real follow-up to the Insight was the 2003 IMAS show car. It dispensed with the Insight's expensive aluminum construction and used really expensive carbon fiber to seriously "add lightness" (as Colin Chapman used to say). It was projected to get 90 mpg and be faster than the Insight, but Honda rightly concluded they couldn't make a profit on a car for a few hypermilers that cost $50K to manufacture. You and I were so lucky that Honda subsidized our Insights--the poor Insight fanatics in Australia didn't have that advantage and paid more than $45K US for their jewels.






I feel lucky to own it and know full well making the original Insight was a proof of concept. I don't expect Honda to make another car they lost money on. My expectation from the leader in production car MPG was that we would see something close to the Insight after 10 years. And here we are.

Insightman you are really a shining example of what made the Insight special. You have been following them from day one and appreciate what the car was all about. It truly was something to get excited about.

I don't think anyone that has get to known or driven the original Insight wouldn't agree with you boys.
Point being made, "dezoris" original post was as far from reality as one can be, and you get blocked with a very narrow point of view= mpg, mpg, mpg.

The original Insight was so special because it was a "rolling prototype" for a tiny test-bench minority. Cars made for minorities are always more special than mass-market ones, yet the later are those that should really matter for any society, since those are the ones that shape the world you live in. Whether the 2nd-gen Insight is a success or not will depend on it's ability to bring hybrid technology to the masses, i.e. those that haven't yet gone hybrid.

The first one was an "insight" on the hybrid technology, the second isn't a follow up, but it's also an "insight", of the "mass-market commercialization of hybrid vehicles". As a matter of fact, by not focusing on ultimate mpg the 2nd-gen is way less about "carrying a badge" or "making an statement" than the first generation one. Indeed, those wanting a symbol (driving the highest mpg car on the American roads) will get a Prius, not a 2nd-gen Insight.

If you can't see the progress of bringing a car that is:
- way cheaper
- way better equipped/comfortable.
- way safer.
- seating 3 more people.
, only because it gets about 10% worse fuel economy (I guess your 25% figure comes from comparisons between 2008EPA figures and older ones, but in the same rating it is 56mpg CVT-Insight vs. 50mpg CVT-HCH), then as I said, you are being really narrow minded...

Btw, if we know think about "what is a car?" i.e. "a machine whose purpose is to bring people from one point to the other at a given price"; now we can really compare "efficiency".

Here are some real numbers "real numbers" assuming the 2nd gen Insight costs 19k USD and gets same FE as the HCH:

a) Worse case scenario, let's say I drive alone. How many miles per gallon do I get with 1k USD of car?
- 1st Insight = 56mpg/21.5k USD = 2.60
- 2nd Insight = 50mpg/19k USD = 2.63
(that was a close one)
b) Best case scenario: you actually "use your car" (which means you are using its full capacity). How much fuel do I use to get a person for 1000 miles?
- 1st Insight = 17.8 gallons/2persons = 8.9 gallons/p
- 2nd Insight = 20 gallons/5 persons = 4 gallons/p

Hey, look at what I found out !!! Honda actually more than doubled the efficiency of their hybrid cars in 10 years with no price increase per mpg !!! And that's without taking into account how "safely and comfortably" did you brought those people for the 1k miles...

You may argue you don't need "such a big car", and say that "you have enough with room for two because you drive mostly alone". But then again, others may argue that you have room for two and a bit of luggage in motorbikes getting over 100mpg starting from 3k/4k USD; no need for hybrids, no need to pay extra, just make it small.


PS: In any case I'm pretty sure that Honda choose the name of the new car just to let people know that "we were here before, we aren't copying the Prius, since the new Insight is clearly a 5 door version of the 1st-gen". For sure it'll be good for them to use that name.

Hondasrule
Profile for Hondasrule
Re: Wise Man's Prius? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2008 12:52
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...Wise Man's Prius it is ;)
mobomofo
Profile for mobomofo
Re: Poor Man's Prius? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2008 13:11
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Powered by Honda wrote:
There should be a 8,000 dollar hybrid.


HA! There's not even a $8,000 dollar car, let alone hybrid car.

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Wise Man's Prius? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2008 19:28
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danielgr wrote:
dezoris wrote:
Insightman wrote:
dezoris wrote:
Where is the real follow up to the Insight?

There won't be because people don't care about better fuel economy, they want the hyrbid badge, they want 4 doors with an auto trans and they don't want to pay a lot of money.

I get it.

It's just too bad even the enthusiasts on this site don't expect more.


dezoris: I feel your pain. Honda's real follow-up to the Insight was the 2003 IMAS show car. It dispensed with the Insight's expensive aluminum construction and used really expensive carbon fiber to seriously "add lightness" (as Colin Chapman used to say). It was projected to get 90 mpg and be faster than the Insight, but Honda rightly concluded they couldn't make a profit on a car for a few hypermilers that cost $50K to manufacture. You and I were so lucky that Honda subsidized our Insights--the poor Insight fanatics in Australia didn't have that advantage and paid more than $45K US for their jewels.






I feel lucky to own it and know full well making the original Insight was a proof of concept. I don't expect Honda to make another car they lost money on. My expectation from the leader in production car MPG was that we would see something close to the Insight after 10 years. And here we are.

Insightman you are really a shining example of what made the Insight special. You have been following them from day one and appreciate what the car was all about. It truly was something to get excited about.

I don't think anyone that has get to known or driven the original Insight wouldn't agree with you boys.
Point being made, "dezoris" original post was as far from reality as one can be, and you get blocked with a very narrow point of view= mpg, mpg, mpg.

The original Insight was so special because it was a "rolling prototype" for a tiny test-bench minority. Cars made for minorities are always more special than mass-market ones, yet the later are those that should really matter for any society, since those are the ones that shape the world you live in. Whether the 2nd-gen Insight is a success or not will depend on it's ability to bring hybrid technology to the masses, i.e. those that haven't yet gone hybrid.

The first one was an "insight" on the hybrid technology, the second isn't a follow up, but it's also an "insight", of the "mass-market commercialization of hybrid vehicles". As a matter of fact, by not focusing on ultimate mpg the 2nd-gen is way less about "carrying a badge" or "making an statement" than the first generation one. Indeed, those wanting a symbol (driving the highest mpg car on the American roads) will get a Prius, not a 2nd-gen Insight.

If you can't see the progress of bringing a car that is:
- way cheaper
- way better equipped/comfortable.
- way safer.
- seating 3 more people.
, only because it gets about 10% worse fuel economy (I guess your 25% figure comes from comparisons between 2008EPA figures and older ones, but in the same rating it is 56mpg CVT-Insight vs. 50mpg CVT-HCH), then as I said, you are being really narrow minded...

Btw, if we know think about "what is a car?" i.e. "a machine whose purpose is to bring people from one point to the other at a given price"; now we can really compare "efficiency".

Here are some real numbers "real numbers" assuming the 2nd gen Insight costs 19k USD and gets same FE as the HCH:

a) Worse case scenario, let's say I drive alone. How many miles per gallon do I get with 1k USD of car?
- 1st Insight = 56mpg/21.5k USD = 2.60
- 2nd Insight = 50mpg/19k USD = 2.63
(that was a close one)
b) Best case scenario: you actually "use your car" (which means you are using its full capacity). How much fuel do I use to get a person for 1000 miles?
- 1st Insight = 17.8 gallons/2persons = 8.9 gallons/p
- 2nd Insight = 20 gallons/5 persons = 4 gallons/p

Hey, look at what I found out !!! Honda actually more than doubled the efficiency of their hybrid cars in 10 years with no price increase per mpg !!! And that's without taking into account how "safely and comfortably" did you brought those people for the 1k miles...

You may argue you don't need "such a big car", and say that "you have enough with room for two because you drive mostly alone". But then again, others may argue that you have room for two and a bit of luggage in motorbikes getting over 100mpg starting from 3k/4k USD; no need for hybrids, no need to pay extra, just make it small.


PS: In any case I'm pretty sure that Honda choose the name of the new car just to let people know that "we were here before, we aren't copying the Prius, since the new Insight is clearly a 5 door version of the 1st-gen". For sure it'll be good for them to use that name.


CLAP, CLAP, CLAP, CLAP................CLAAAAAAAAAAAP! BRAVO AGAIN danielgr! Your winning me over with every word typed. People just don't get it. As I stated in a post a few days ago. Smaller IMA, less weight and the same or better FE then the HCH. How is that a step backwards?

Your 5 passenger analogy was very good and maybe they will understand that and wise up. Time will tell and as gas drops ($2.89 here in Ohio) the sheep will heard to the local Domestic dealer and start again with the SUV's and just when they realize how much of a mistake they made, gas will be 3.50 to 4.00 again. The real environmentalist will come out and buy these cars and they will sell just fine. I heed warning to all, watch your wallet and purchase of (as Talking heads sing) "Laarge automobiles" ba...da da dunt!

Be wise and purchase the "wise mans car" The Insight from your local Honda dealer.


Longhorn3
Profile for Longhorn3
Re: Wise Man's Prius? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2008 21:54
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Honda AFVM,since you sell Prius's too,what is your Toyota rep telling you about the next gen?
HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Wise Man's Prius? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2008 02:05
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Longhorn wrote:
Honda AFVM,since you sell Prius's too,what is your Toyota rep telling you about the next gen?

Not much, but hurry up and wait....?

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Wise Man's Prius? ..............Up Date! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2008 01:29
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
Longhorn wrote:
Honda AFVM,since you sell Prius's too,what is your Toyota rep telling you about the next gen?

Not much, but hurry up and wait....?


My understanding from what I was told today is it will have a sunroof opt and that will include an auto open when the inside of the car reaches a certen temp to let the heat out. My question of "will there be solar powered fans to help cool the car when the roof opens"? GPS Parking like Lexus (Prius has it in Europe already) A 5% increase in mpg is expected, PHEV w/LI pack expected in 2011 not clear if fall of 2010 or later in 2011 as a 2012. A sport model is also being suggested with real preformance inhancments in fun factor/road feel. Asked about paddle shifters for that model and I was treated like I was from another world? Higher quality inside. I was shut down at that point.

No info from Rep.

Cj
Profile for Cj
Re: Wise Man's Prius? ..............Up Date! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2008 07:29
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Longhorn wrote:
Honda AFVM,since you sell Prius's too,what is your Toyota rep telling you about the next gen?

Not much, but hurry up and wait....?


My understanding from what I was told today is it will have a sunroof opt and that will include an auto open when the inside of the car reaches a certen temp to let the heat out. My question of "will there be solar powered fans to help cool the car when the roof opens"? GPS Parking like Lexus (Prius has it in Europe already) A 5% increase in mpg is expected, PHEV w/LI pack expected in 2011 not clear if fall of 2010 or later in 2011 as a 2012. A sport model is also being suggested with real preformance inhancments in fun factor/road feel. Asked about paddle shifters for that model and I was treated like I was from another world? Higher quality inside. I was shut down at that point.

No info from Rep.


Sounds like the Prius will get to the magical 50mpg city while the Insight tries to compete with an inferior 40.

Prius > Insight

:D

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Wise Man's Prius? ..............Up Date! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2008 07:58
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Cj wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Longhorn wrote:
Honda AFVM,since you sell Prius's too,what is your Toyota rep telling you about the next gen?

Not much, but hurry up and wait....?


My understanding from what I was told today is it will have a sunroof opt and that will include an auto open when the inside of the car reaches a certen temp to let the heat out. My question of "will there be solar powered fans to help cool the car when the roof opens"? GPS Parking like Lexus (Prius has it in Europe already) A 5% increase in mpg is expected, PHEV w/LI pack expected in 2011 not clear if fall of 2010 or later in 2011 as a 2012. A sport model is also being suggested with real preformance inhancments in fun factor/road feel. Asked about paddle shifters for that model and I was treated like I was from another world? Higher quality inside. I was shut down at that point.

No info from Rep.


Sounds like the Prius will get to the magical 50mpg city while the Insight tries to compete with an inferior 40.

Prius > Insight

:D


Nothing is on Window paper yet, so as just me answering longhorns question, we will chalk it up as hear say and not fact. Like Insight info it's all; HEAR SAY!

I am like a 5 year old on a long trip with thes Honda Toyota guys, I corner them and won't let them go till I get something and they know it. Who knows what is fact and get the hell away from Andrew info LOL.

Hondasrule
Profile for Hondasrule
Re: Wise Man's Prius? ..............Prius > Insight ... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2008 01:11
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Cj = MPG

Cj + Insight = :(

Cj + Prius = :)

danielgrPost = (Insight > MPG)

Cj + danielgrPost = ?

Cj = Prius > Insight

Cj + Honda = lost cause

:)

Cj
Profile for Cj
Re: Wise Man's Prius? ..............Prius > Insight ... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-11-2008 08:15
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Hondasrule wrote:
Cj = MPG

Cj + Insight = :(

Cj + Prius = :)

danielgrPost = (Insight > MPG)

Cj + danielgrPost = ?

Cj = Prius > Insight

Cj + Honda = lost cause

:)


HA! :D


 
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