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  TOV News > Honda's Insight Concept Makes its World Debut > > Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market

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dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 16:21
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It's a concept, and boring. Nothing innovative here at all.
In fact when you strip away all the interesting lighting, touch sensitive dash and slick rear deck for the production model it does nothing to separate itself aside from pricing.

It's a Prius copy and still does not break any new ground in MPG. To call it an Insight means it should be a successor in my opinion. This Insight is going to be heavier, larger, less fuel efficient and have no manual option. Maybe the same aerodynamically thats about all it would share.

It's a total disappointment unless they are able to get 50+ MPG I see no reason to go with a hybrid technology that's long in the tooth. Even a Civic will get damn near 40MPG without the hassle of the hybrid drive train and all the little quirks that go along with it.

I don't know if it's Honda who had gotten smarter building dumber cars for dumber people or if they finally gave up on trying to push forward new technology.

It's a bit of both and this rushed to market example is proof.

jgalvan
Profile for jgalvan
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 17:30
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So you mean it is a copy of a Prius which was a copy of an earlier Honda??

I think you missed the part where this would be priced lower than the Civic Hybrid

dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 17:45
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I am talking lower model Civics which can achieve pretty much 40MPG on the highway and can be had for 16-18k.

What car did the Prius copy? It was the first hybrid technically, not available in the states.

The first US Prius was a four door which was followed by the more popular one which shares very few details with the original Insight.

aznstuart
Profile for aznstuart
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 21:50
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Not many Civic's hit 40mpg. That was just what the old EPA rating was.

If I recall correctly, the first Prius looked like an Echo, and small subcompact SEDAN, not a hatch. The first Insight and now the second one were both HATCHBACKS. The 2nd Gen Insight is building off the design language of the first gen Insight, not the Prius.

ipribadi
Profile for ipribadi
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 22:21
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Hybrid systems are not only about the pursuit for higher mpg.

You can load up a hyrbrid with a bunch of Li-Ion batteries and controllers to get 100+mpg. It's been done since 5 years ago.
But to mass produce it at a low cost ... now that's a real world challenge.

Bringing cost down is a MAJOR engineering feat.
It takes multiple in depth DFx analysis to optimize a design for performance, manufacturability and cost.

If the new Insight is priced at $20K or less (while keeping refinement and features on par), then Honda has acheived an industry milestone here.

TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 22:45
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I can't believe so many people can be so myopic as to negate the fact that many average consumers will, in fact, think this new Insight looks like a Prius. Honda says they tried to put some FCX styling into the new Insight, and indeed they have - but come on?!

Who says that Honda didn't secretly want the new Insight to have a passing resemblance to the benchmark Prius? Wouldn't that be prudent?

The Volt is pretty distinctive (not my cup of tea), but not many have confused it with Prius styling...point being, Honda could have tried harder to differentiate its styling from the Prius, but erred on the conservative side and decided not to...

I actually really like the new Insight styling, but I know that car design doesn't happen in a vacuum - for sure the Prius influenced this car (and the old Insight influenced the Prius to a lesser extent).

All I have to say Honda fans - better get use to everyone saying Honda copied Toyota (even if it's not entirely true), because it's gonna be a big flashing neon disclaimer every time the Insight is talked about...

AK
Profile for AK
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 23:13
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1st realities: First to market means something. It's better to be first to market with crap than later on with perfection.
Look at Windows. Honda is 5 years behind Toyota's Prius.

2nd: It will never beat the prius in MPG cuz it's a "mild" hybrid. It's not a full one. It's always using gas continuously.
They put in a tiny engine and have a turbo boost via batter. Same as turbo via NOS. NO diff at all.

Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 23:23
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Those evil Prius bloggers are already calling it the Hindsight!

Honda certainly knows it blew its early lead by assuming the Civic Hybrid could match the appeal of Toyota's dedicated hybrid Prius. Aerodynamcally-dictated similarities aside, offering a better-looking car that's more fun to drive, gets better gas mileage, and costs thousands of dollars less is an excellent catch-up strategy.



HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 01:17
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dezoris wrote:
It's a concept, and boring. Nothing innovative here at all.
In fact when you strip away all the interesting lighting, touch sensitive dash and slick rear deck for the production model it does nothing to separate itself aside from pricing.

It's a Prius copy and still does not break any new ground in MPG. To call it an Insight means it should be a successor in my opinion. This Insight is going to be heavier, larger, less fuel efficient and have no manual option. Maybe the same aerodynamically thats about all it would share.

It's a total disappointment unless they are able to get 50+ MPG I see no reason to go with a hybrid technology that's long in the tooth. Even a Civic will get damn near 40MPG without the hassle of the hybrid drive train and all the little quirks that go along with it.

I don't know if it's Honda who had gotten smarter building dumber cars for dumber people or if they finally gave up on trying to push forward new technology.

It's a bit of both and this rushed to market example is proof.


dezoris wrote;

"In fact when you strip away all the interesting lighting, touch sensitive dash and slick rear deck for the production model it does nothing to separate itself aside from pricing."

AFVM reply;

How long have you been driving your 2010 Insight dezoris? You seem as if you know all of it's failures before it has come out?

Your a real Rocket Scientist dezoris, did you come up with this materiel or did Rosie *i eat to much* McDonalds write it for you?

Stop playing in the minors.

Powered by Honda
Profile for Powered by Honda
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 03:23
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dezoris wrote:
It's a concept, and boring. Nothing innovative here at all.
In fact when you strip away all the interesting lighting, touch sensitive dash and slick rear deck for the production model it does nothing to separate itself aside from pricing.

It's a Prius copy and still does not break any new ground in MPG. To call it an Insight means it should be a successor in my opinion. This Insight is going to be heavier, larger, less fuel efficient and have no manual option. Maybe the same aerodynamically thats about all it would share.

It's a total disappointment unless they are able to get 50+ MPG I see no reason to go with a hybrid technology that's long in the tooth. Even a Civic will get damn near 40MPG without the hassle of the hybrid drive train and all the little quirks that go along with it.

I don't know if it's Honda who had gotten smarter building dumber cars for dumber people or if they finally gave up on trying to push forward new technology.

It's a bit of both and this rushed to market example is proof.



hahah ur an idiot.

"besides its innovative touch buttons dash and new lighting..." its not innovative.


Also, its a Honda insight copy not prius. I don't think you've seen the first generation Insight.

In this case L2L please. Thats learn to learn for the old pplz.

SR453
Profile for SR453
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 08:53
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By looking carefully at the new Insight, inside and out, even if the actual release veh is some what watered down a bit, I prefer the Insight over the Prius hands down.

Never did like the Prius Interior and gauges to be honest and the hard plastic & most of the gauges in the middle, not infront of you as in the Insight was also a none starter for me.

The Insight gauges are large enough to actually see better then the smaller one provided by Toyota and for the life of me I still cannot understand the thinking by Toyota on having the gauges situated towards the right of the driver and further away, making it some what more difficult to see. I drove the Prius and found it to be a nice ride but the controls were and still is a turn off.

Honda Insight will be on my list for the next Veh to buy, not the Prius.

80honda
Profile for 80honda
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 09:14
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Insightman wrote:
Those evil Prius bloggers are already calling it the Hindsight!

Honda certainly knows it blew its early lead by assuming the Civic Hybrid could match the appeal of Toyota's dedicated hybrid Prius. Aerodynamcally-dictated similarities aside, offering a better-looking car that's more fun to drive, gets better gas mileage, and costs thousands of dollars less is an excellent catch-up strategy.






Let them revel in their name calling while they piously drive their boring prius.

80honda
Profile for 80honda
I'm pleased with the styling [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 09:16
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I love the styling. I have been wanting a hatchback from Honda for many years now. If you want wagon/hatchback functionality from Honda, you options are the ecofocused Fit, or an SUV. I'd still like to see Honda produce something that provides hatchback utility wrapped in a more luxurious package.

Audi A4 Avant!!!!!

buddha
Profile for buddha
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 09:23
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So why don't YOU design and make that exciting car and let the rest of us pick it to death. It's always much easier to be critical of someone else's work than one's own, isn't it?
siegen
Profile for siegen
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 11:39
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dezoris wrote:
It's a concept, and boring. Nothing innovative here at all.
In fact when you strip away all the interesting lighting, touch sensitive dash and slick rear deck for the production model it does nothing to separate itself aside from pricing.

It's a Prius copy and still does not break any new ground in MPG. To call it an Insight means it should be a successor in my opinion. This Insight is going to be heavier, larger, less fuel efficient and have no manual option. Maybe the same aerodynamically thats about all it would share.

It's a total disappointment unless they are able to get 50+ MPG I see no reason to go with a hybrid technology that's long in the tooth. Even a Civic will get damn near 40MPG without the hassle of the hybrid drive train and all the little quirks that go along with it.

I don't know if it's Honda who had gotten smarter building dumber cars for dumber people or if they finally gave up on trying to push forward new technology.

It's a bit of both and this rushed to market example is proof.



Average real-world combined mileage based on over 100 submissions each.

Civic: 31.5 mpg (5AT)
HCH: 45 mpg

What quirks go along with a hybrid drivetrain exactly?

dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 11:41
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I own a 1st gen Insight and have driven every Honda made for the past 12 years. Including owning a vast majority of their cars.

As said this car is not an Insight successor, the original followed many design principles which I already stated.

The new Insight does not improve on any of the original concepts aside from aerodynamics.

dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 12:00
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We have a fleet of 2006 Honda Civic EX which we have been monitoring MPGs on for 100 mile highway trips. Via OBDII and tank averages we see 38-40MPG weekly.

Its well know that the Civic hybrid is one of the worst investments for return on fuel economy so its not a debate.
Comparing the new Insight with a base Civic or higher (non hybrid) would be a better comparison. If the Insight can actually get 50MPG or better on average for a similar cost it would be excellent.


Quirks on Honda hybrid drivetrains are vast.
The entire state of charge is an approximation. When the car is new you don't notice the leech charging and assist levels change much. But as the battery becomes more unbalanced the car force charges more often, assist becomes weaker etc.
The car's hybrid performance over time changes which is a big downfall of the Honda system.

Secondly the best way to save the battery is not to use it often. The programming on the Honda Hybrids makes it difficult to do initial launches without using the electric motor so you are forced to use it and drain the battery.

The original Insight's magic is the efficiency of the motor and it's annoying when for no reason you are getting electric assist at 15% throttle and you don't need it.
Same goes for the Civic Hybrid.

Then there is the EGR, O2, Catalyst, CVT and battery pack replacement and cost or repair. Yes some of those are covered under warranty but replacing them more often than normal cars is common. Replacing a CVT is twice the cost of a normal auto and about 3x more than a clutch job. The CVT in the 1st gen Insight will cost 3500-5000$ to replace expect the new Insights to be similar.

So my entire point is if Honda does not get close to 1st generation Insight MPG there is not a compelling reason to get the new Insight over a Fit or Civic which can also be had with a manual transmission.

Stevens24
Profile for Stevens24
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 12:27
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The selling point will be that the pricing will start at 15k and top out at 18k significantly less than a Priuns or Civic Hybrid. And did it occur to you that Honda might sandbag the mileage claims as to not tip off another manufacturer?
robdough
Profile for robdough
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-04-2008 12:43
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This is a bad comparison. See previous post on real world gas mileage. I drive in mixed conditions (hills, city, hwy) and get 45 mpg as the previous post. On highway driving @70mph, I routinely get 50 mpg. You need to compare the regular Honda with this. It is also well know that the important metric is gallons/mile. Expressing in miles/gallon reduces the impact when you get to more efficient operation.

I certainly would rather have better performance, but please be more careful in your statements.



sennaFAN
Profile for sennaFAN
Re: Disappointing Rushed to Market [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-05-2008 03:13
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My wife currently drives a 2005 Prius. The car averages a relatively easy 55mpg. The plus points of the car are definately the drive of the car, in the sense that the hybrid drive is all but imperceptible in its actions and changes. The cvt gearbox is well judged and doesnt have any of the ' jerk ' associated with some cvt installations. The car is generally very quiet and smooth riding, on good surfaces. Overall the car has succeeded due to doing most things very well, on top of which it is styled so that everyone else knows there is a self satisfied, smug ego warrior driving the car!!! I mean it....
Now we arent any of the above but the message given by the styling and buck rogers dash lets people know your driving something either from the future or that is helping mother nature breath a bit easier. In that sense Honda dropped the ball after the original Insight by not persisting with the styling theme they so cleverly pioneered. Letting Toyota dominate must rile them no end. The problem with such worthy cars as the Civic and Accord hybrids is that no one knows your saving the planet !!
The boys and girls at Honda have belatedly given us and me exactly what we need. A cutely styled eco warrior. This car deserves to do well so long as it keeps the good bits of the Prius and doesnt have the bad bits, terrible dash plastics, awful ride over ridges and potholes, no end of interior squeaks and a really annoying squeak from outside when they get hot!! ( we have used 4 Prius and they all do it )


 
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