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  TOV News > Honda's Insight Concept Makes its World Debut > > Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid?

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kirk
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Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 07:09
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I guess the technology is not advancing very quickly.
Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 07:36
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I think the major advancements are going to show in the price of the car, not so much in its performance. The Civic hybrid does return pretty good numbers.
Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 10:38
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If the more aerodynamic Insight cannot surpass the fuel economy of the Civic Hybrid, which uses the same engine, does that mean the new, cheaper IMA system is inferior to that of the Civic Hybrid? I was hoping the working title "Prius Killer" referred to fuel economy, not just price. I'm still mad that Honda didn't tweak the Civic Hybrid to out-MPG the Prius. I want Honda, not Toyota sitting on top of the EPA fuel economy list!
longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 10:50
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HondaAFVM, I need for you to chime in here. Is Honda playing coy here,not wanting to tip off Toyota by stating the performance targets were the HCH's? I would expect with a lower weight and more aerodynamic body the Insight numbers should be about 15% higher.
Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 11:16
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Before submitting the new Insight to the EPA to get the official numbers, I wouldn't expect Honda to say how good they expect the Insight to be. I just thought they should say it will exceed the Civic Hybrid's numbers. Remember, when Honda shows off the final production Insight at the Detroit show in January, Toyota will just be introducing their new Prius concept--they'll have plenty of time to buy a truckload of Insights to analyze them before the design of the new Prius is finalized. If the new Prius then fails to match the fuel economy of the new Insight, that will be apples-to-apples proof that Honda's "mild" IMA system is superior to Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive.

The big question is will Honda offer rear wheel covers for the new car so my two Insights will match? Just kidding (although a recent MPG contest-winning Prius did use rear wheel covers to beat out an Insight Classic using some stupid formula based on the car's results compared to its EPA-rated mileage).

siegen
Profile for siegen
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 12:16
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If the new Insight returns 45 mpg in average real world fuel economy (as does the HCH), has a base starting price of $19,000 plus any tax credits available, and looks as nice as these concept photos, I think Honda will have quite a bit of trouble keeping up with demand.

The Insight's IMA is lighter weight and cheaper to produce. I still thinks its possible it will return slightly better FE than the HCH, but even if it is only equal, it is still fantastic.

And let's not forgot, the HCH has been around a while, and is due for a redesign in a year or two. Chances are it will achieve a higher level of FE than the current HCH. It is the more expensive hybrid after all.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 12:28
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Insightman wrote:
Before submitting the new Insight to the EPA to get the official numbers, I wouldn't expect Honda to say how good they expect the Insight to be. I just thought they should say it will exceed the Civic Hybrid's numbers. Remember, when Honda shows off the final production Insight at the Detroit show in January, Toyota will just be introducing their new Prius concept--they'll have plenty of time to buy a truckload of Insights to analyze them before the design of the new Prius is finalized. If the new Prius then fails to match the fuel economy of the new Insight, that will be apples-to-apples proof that Honda's "mild" IMA system is superior to Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive.

The big question is will Honda offer rear wheel covers for the new car so my two Insights will match? Just kidding (although a recent MPG contest-winning Prius did use rear wheel covers to beat out an Insight Classic using some stupid formula based on the car's results compared to its EPA-rated mileage).

Toyota has already release preliminary CO2 emissions for their next-gen Prius. Quoted at 92 gCO2/km it's already quite more efficient than the Civic Hybrid (109 gCO2/km). Sure we don't know nothing about its price, and those figures are "on EUDC cycle", which isn't EPA's, and isn't life.

Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 12:44
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Unfortunately the EPA doesn't test for cold-weather fuel economy, so there's no promotional incentive for companies to address this problem. My Insight Classic can achieve 80 mpg in the summer but on very cold winter days, I'm lucky to see 50 mpg (yeah, I know, boo-hoo for me). My yearly average ends up being about 63 mpg.

I've read about some adventurous owners ducting hot air from the manifold (what there is of a manifold on the Insight Classic) into the air cleaner to improve their cold-weather fuel economy. I wish Honda would offer an optional factory-approved cold-weather package such as this for the Insight Nouveau to provide consistently high gas mileage throughout the year--isn't that what it's all about? Perhaps Honda's way ahead of me and such a system is already built in, but I doubt it.

Honda Fan
Profile for Honda Fan
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 13:42
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A likely reason for comparable mileage on a smaller and more aerodynamic vehicle with similar engine, would be its weight.

There is a good chance that Honda used a lot more steel instead of aluminum or composites to save cost. But it increases the weight.

Battery pack size could be another. A large portion of hybrid cost rests in its battery. Insight could have been design with smaller battery pack to reduce cost. As a result, it does not provide as much of reserve during regen breaking or as much distance on electric mode.

jgalvan
Profile for jgalvan
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 17:49
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Insightman wrote:
If the more aerodynamic Insight cannot surpass the fuel economy of the Civic Hybrid, which uses the same engine, does that mean the new, cheaper IMA system is inferior to that of the Civic Hybrid? I was hoping the working title "Prius Killer" referred to fuel economy, not just price. I'm still mad that Honda didn't tweak the Civic Hybrid to out-MPG the Prius. I want Honda, not Toyota sitting on top of the EPA fuel economy list!



How much profit is Honda making on the Civic Hybrid? If they can produce a Hybrid that acutally has a profit margin I think that in itself says alot. Besides, what relevance does the EPA fuel economy test have to do with real world driving?

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 18:45
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longhorn wrote:
HondaAFVM, I need for you to chime in here. Is Honda playing coy here,not wanting to tip off Toyota by stating the performance targets were the HCH's? I would expect with a lower weight and more aerodynamic body the Insight numbers should be about 15% higher.

The Quote reads;

"CO2 emissions and fuel economy are targeted to be at a similar level to the existing Civic Hybrid, giving drivers a flexible and highly practical lower environmental impact car. At its expected price point, Insight will have a unique combination of passenger space, luggage capacity, emissions and economy."

Now of course you can take that as being less then the Civic Hybrid or more? We don't really know. I guessed a wile back 48/56 and I'm going to stick by it. My City number might be high due to the IMAs lack of electric only from a stop to 20mph, but I can feel strong about my HWY number with the aerodynamics and less weight. I have been told we won't be disappointed and a "Prius killer" has more to it then MPG. Don’t forget ride, quality of interior, price, ease of use and road feel/fun factor. I think this car will have to be a real flop not to sell and Honda will not let this car fail, so we can expect a real winner, with the ability to mate it with LI packs in the VERY near future that will improve fuel economy. Let’s not guess what the car is before we get the true "Insight" on the facts. ;>)

Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 20:25
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jgalvan wrote:
How much profit is Honda making on the Civic Hybrid? If they can produce a Hybrid that acutally has a profit margin I think that in itself says alot. Besides, what relevance does the EPA fuel economy test have to do with real world driving?


EPA fuel economy ratings, though flawed (fudge factors abound), supply the numbers that appear on the sticker in the window; the numbers people use to compare cars. For that reason automobiles are designed to score as high in the EPA tests as possible even though the numbers don't accurately reflect real-world driving conditions. What those numbers affect is sales volume, something every automaker takes very seriously.

Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-02-2008 21:12
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
with the ability to mate it with LI packs in the VERY near future that will improve fuel economy.


Mr. Fukui stated that Lithium-Ion batteries were not mature enough for Honda to trust them in the cars they build. Of course that could change, but probably not in the very near future. Lithium-Ion batteries could improve fuel economy of Honda's IMA system only by reducing weight.

In fact, if all you were interested in was fuel economy, you could toss out the Insight's IMA system completely to save even more weight (although you'd have to add back the weight of an alternator to recharge the 12-volt battery). What Honda's IMA system does (ignoring the Accord Hybrid and, hopefully, the CR-Z) is make a car with a wimpy but fuel-efficient internal combustion engine acceptably driveable.




HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 01:07
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Insightman wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
with the ability to mate it with LI packs in the VERY near future that will improve fuel economy.


Mr. Fukui stated that Lithium-Ion batteries were not mature enough for Honda to trust them in the cars they build. Of course that could change, but probably not in the very near future. Lithium-Ion batteries could improve fuel economy of Honda's IMA system only by reducing weight.

In fact, if all you were interested in was fuel economy, you could toss out the Insight's IMA system completely to save even more weight (although you'd have to add back the weight of an alternator to recharge the 12-volt battery). What Honda's IMA system does (ignoring the Accord Hybrid and, hopefully, the CR-Z) is make a car with a wimpy but fuel-efficient internal combustion engine acceptably driveable.





Honda already has a production LI pack in the FCX Clarity. As for as LI making it more fuel efficient;

1) They charge faster and hold that charge longer, there for reducing the time the IC engine has to work to charge it, there for using less fuel for the recharge, increasing fuel econ.

2) LI pack would increase more electric only time because a LI pack the same size as the pack in the current Civic Hybrid is 5x more powerful at the same weight of the NMH pack and 8x more powerful replacing the Prius pack size and weight.

By model year 2012 Insight should have a LI pack in the upper models for the first year or so (like the VCM started) then make it standard as time goes by and cost comes down.

In the car business my friend, 3 or 4 years is the "VERY near future" Honda and other manufactures already have the 2013 model cars on paper and model form. They are currently working with suppliers to bid contracts and demo parts for 2011 cars. Most are already planned for 2017. That is why 35mpg CAFE by 2020 congress passed will kill the big 2.5. They have 9mpgs to go before 35mpg CAFE. Honda has .02 before they reach 35mpg after 2010 (@34.8 now ) and Toyota is at 34.2mpg CAFE. All they need is less then 1% and they can hit 40mpg by 2020. Then when it goes to 40mpg by 2030, they will be at 45mpg.

Insightman wrote;

In fact, if all you were interested in was fuel economy, you could toss out the Insight's IMA system completely to save even more weight (although you'd have to add back the weight of an alternator to recharge the 12-volt battery). What Honda's IMA system does (ignoring the Accord Hybrid and, hopefully, the CR-Z) is make a car with a wimpy but fuel-efficient internal combustion engine acceptably drivable.

AFVM reply;

The Accord hybrid was a miss managed blunder. I drove one for a month and averaged low 30's mpg city and low 40's on the hwy. It's all how you drive a car. The CR-Z will be the same way.

I drive a Civic Hybrid to Columbus from Cleveland and I averaged 49.6mpg @ 70mph. I would say the HCH is not a "wimpy" but I would say it is a fuel-efficient internal combustion engine is exceptionally drivable. You must not spend much time behind the wheel of one as much as I do.

How can you call your self "Insightman" and say what you say. Do you have an Insight? If so you must not like it or getting poor mileage???


Longhorn3
Profile for Longhorn3
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 07:47
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
Insightman wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
with the ability to mate it with LI packs in the VERY near future that will improve fuel economy.


Mr. Fukui stated that Lithium-Ion batteries were not mature enough for Honda to trust them in the cars they build. Of course that could change, but probably not in the very near future. Lithium-Ion batteries could improve fuel economy of Honda's IMA system only by reducing weight.

In fact, if all you were interested in was fuel economy, you could toss out the Insight's IMA system completely to save even more weight (although you'd have to add back the weight of an alternator to recharge the 12-volt battery). What Honda's IMA system does (ignoring the Accord Hybrid and, hopefully, the CR-Z) is make a car with a wimpy but fuel-efficient internal combustion engine acceptably driveable.





Honda already has a production LI pack in the FCX Clarity. As for as LI making it more fuel efficient;

1) They charge faster and hold that charge longer, there for reducing the time the IC engine has to work to charge it, there for using less fuel for the recharge, increasing fuel econ.

2) LI pack would increase more electric only time because a LI pack the same size as the pack in the current Civic Hybrid is 5x more powerful at the same weight of the NMH pack and 8x more powerful replacing the Prius pack size and weight.

By model year 2012 Insight should have a LI pack in the upper models for the first year or so (like the VCM started) then make it standard as time goes by and cost comes down.

In the car business my friend, 3 or 4 years is the "VERY near future" Honda and other manufactures already have the 2013 model cars on paper and model form. They are currently working with suppliers to bid contracts and demo parts for 2011 cars. Most are already planned for 2017. That is why 35mpg CAFE by 2020 congress passed will kill the big 2.5. They have 9mpgs to go before 35mpg CAFE. Honda has .02 before they reach 35mpg after 2010 (@34.8 now ) and Toyota is at 34.2mpg CAFE. All they need is less then 1% and they can hit 40mpg by 2020. Then when it goes to 40mpg by 2030, they will be at 45mpg.

Insightman wrote;

In fact, if all you were interested in was fuel economy, you could toss out the Insight's IMA system completely to save even more weight (although you'd have to add back the weight of an alternator to recharge the 12-volt battery). What Honda's IMA system does (ignoring the Accord Hybrid and, hopefully, the CR-Z) is make a car with a wimpy but fuel-efficient internal combustion engine acceptably drivable.

AFVM reply;

The Accord hybrid was a miss managed blunder. I drove one for a month and averaged low 30's mpg city and low 40's on the hwy. It's all how you drive a car. The CR-Z will be the same way.

I drive a Civic Hybrid to Columbus from Cleveland and I averaged 49.6mpg @ 70mph. I would say the HCH is not a "wimpy" but I would say it is a fuel-efficient internal combustion engine is exceptionally drivable. You must not spend much time behind the wheel of one as much as I do.

How can you call your self "Insightman" and say what you say. Do you have an Insight? If so you must not like it or getting poor mileage???




How did you get 49.6 at 70mph in a HCH? Did you use cruise? I ask because my coworkers state they get 40 at 70mph.

There must be a marketing reason to buy the Insight over the HCH. It could be the Insight is a few thousand cheaper,and it looks Trekkie. But I have to think its more than that,so mpg must be significantly higher.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 07:56
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I think the price will be a big selling point for people who want a hybrid that looks like a hybrid. The trendy thing I guess.
Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 08:13
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
Honda already has a production LI pack in the FCX Clarity. As for as LI making it more fuel efficient;

1) They charge faster and hold that charge longer, there for reducing the time the IC engine has to work to charge it, there for using less fuel for the recharge, increasing fuel econ.

2) LI pack would increase more electric only time because a LI pack the same size as the pack in the current Civic Hybrid is 5x more powerful at the same weight of the NMH pack and 8x more powerful replacing the Prius pack size and weight.

By model year 2012 Insight should have a LI pack in the upper models for the first year or so (like the VCM started) then make it standard as time goes by and cost comes down.

In the car business my friend, 3 or 4 years is the "VERY near future" Honda and other manufactures already have the 2013 model cars on paper and model form. They are currently working with suppliers to bid contracts and demo parts for 2011 cars. Most are already planned for 2017. That is why 35mpg CAFE by 2020 congress passed will kill the big 2.5. They have 9mpgs to go before 35mpg CAFE. Honda has .02 before they reach 35mpg after 2010 (@34.8 now ) and Toyota is at 34.2mpg CAFE. All they need is less then 1% and they can hit 40mpg by 2020. Then when it goes to 40mpg by 2030, they will be at 45mpg.

I drive a Civic Hybrid to Columbus from Cleveland and I averaged 49.6mpg @ 70mph. I would say the HCH is not a "wimpy" but I would say it is a fuel-efficient internal combustion engine is exceptionally drivable. You must not spend much time behind the wheel of one as much as I do.

How can you call your self "Insightman" and say what you say. Do you have an Insight? If so you must not like it or getting poor mileage???



AFVM:

You have to redefine the meaning of the word "production" to apply it to the FCX Clarity.

I have been driving only Insights since January 2000. I love driving my Insight, but pardon me if I consider its 67 hp engine "wimpy." You, on the other hand, have been driving a Civic Hybrid with its "mighty" 110 hp engine. The reason the HCH doesn't feel wimpy is because the IMA system makes it more driveable. The point I was trying to make is that Honda's IMA strategy is to pair a very fuel-efficient engine with a hybrid electric motor system that provides the boost you need when you need it. Take away the IMA system and you're left with a very fuel-efficient engine and a lighter car.

1) I believe the Li-Ion's main claim to superiority is its energy density. It requires the same power to recharge as any other rechargeable battery. There's no free lunch here. The advantage for fuel economy is its lower weight.

2) The increased battery-only time would look good on the EPA ratings, but that power has to come from somewhere. With your hybrid driving experience, you know that there's almost no regenerated power coming from the brakes on I-71 between Columbus to Cleveland--the engine has to provide the power to recharge the IMA battery pack on your breakneck (from the point of view of a hypermiler) 70 mph drive. There's no free lunch here, either.

I don't see why you think I don't like my Insight just because of my opinions regarding the operation of Honda's IMA system. I've driven more than 850 miles on a 10.6 gallon tankful--it will be a looooong time before any real-world car can match that number. And I've had a new Insight on order for my wife since July. I have been corresponding with Insight owners around the world since 2000 and my (admittedly wimpy) insightman.com website has been up since 1999. I think you don't like me because I live in Ann Arbor instead of Columbus.

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 08:35
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Insightman wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
Honda already has a production LI pack in the FCX Clarity. As for as LI making it more fuel efficient;

1) They charge faster and hold that charge longer, there for reducing the time the IC engine has to work to charge it, there for using less fuel for the recharge, increasing fuel econ.

2) LI pack would increase more electric only time because a LI pack the same size as the pack in the current Civic Hybrid is 5x more powerful at the same weight of the NMH pack and 8x more powerful replacing the Prius pack size and weight.

By model year 2012 Insight should have a LI pack in the upper models for the first year or so (like the VCM started) then make it standard as time goes by and cost comes down.

In the car business my friend, 3 or 4 years is the "VERY near future" Honda and other manufactures already have the 2013 model cars on paper and model form. They are currently working with suppliers to bid contracts and demo parts for 2011 cars. Most are already planned for 2017. That is why 35mpg CAFE by 2020 congress passed will kill the big 2.5. They have 9mpgs to go before 35mpg CAFE. Honda has .02 before they reach 35mpg after 2010 (@34.8 now ) and Toyota is at 34.2mpg CAFE. All they need is less then 1% and they can hit 40mpg by 2020. Then when it goes to 40mpg by 2030, they will be at 45mpg.

I drive a Civic Hybrid to Columbus from Cleveland and I averaged 49.6mpg @ 70mph. I would say the HCH is not a "wimpy" but I would say it is a fuel-efficient internal combustion engine is exceptionally drivable. You must not spend much time behind the wheel of one as much as I do.

How can you call your self "Insightman" and say what you say. Do you have an Insight? If so you must not like it or getting poor mileage???



AFVM:

You have to redefine the meaning of the word "production" to apply it to the FCX Clarity.

I have been driving only Insights since January 2000. I love driving my Insight, but pardon me if I consider its 67 hp engine "wimpy." You, on the other hand, have been driving a Civic Hybrid with its "mighty" 110 hp engine. The reason the HCH doesn't feel wimpy is because the IMA system makes it more driveable. The point I was trying to make is that Honda's IMA strategy is to pair a very fuel-efficient engine with a hybrid electric motor system that provides the boost you need when you need it. Take away the IMA system and you're left with a very fuel-efficient engine and a lighter car.

1) I believe the Li-Ion's main claim to superiority is its energy density. It requires the same power to recharge as any other rechargeable battery. There's no free lunch here. The advantage for fuel economy is its lower weight.

2) The increased battery-only time would look good on the EPA ratings, but that power has to come from somewhere. With your hybrid driving experience, you know that there's almost no regenerated power coming from the brakes on I-71 between Columbus to Cleveland--the engine has to provide the power to recharge the IMA battery pack on your breakneck (from the point of view of a hypermiler) 70 mph drive. There's no free lunch here, either.

I don't see why you think I don't like my Insight just because of my opinions regarding the operation of Honda's IMA system. I've driven more than 850 miles on a 10.6 gallon tankful--it will be a looooong time before any real-world car can match that number. And I've had a new Insight on order for my wife since July. I have been corresponding with Insight owners around the world since 2000 and my (admittedly wimpy) insightman.com website has been up since 1999. I think you don't like me because I live in Ann Arbor instead of Columbus.


Well then specify you are talking about the Insight when your saying "wimpy" yes your Insightman, but that wouldn't mean you drive one. I sold delivered the first one in Ohio and the guy has like 160k on it now and it's still going strong. I guess I feel your using the word wimpy when you already knew you were buying something that has an engine and trans that weighs less then 200 pounds.

Ann Arbor!! I bet we met then because I attended the Alt fuel street fair in a CNG Civic on June 13 of this year. They had a PHEV Escape I got to drive and some cool cars. I love the street lights. I'm pissed because all the times I go to Ann Arbor I never miss a meal @ Zingermans and I did that time.

As far as I-71, there are many times when there are steady down hill times when the battery charges. Yes I know 3 FCX’s don’t exactly mean “production” but they are using them in real world driving in a very hot climate which is a good test for the car and pack.

I also switch to 2nd gear or "S" on the shifter since it's a CVT it sends more energy back to the pack w/o using more fuel. I do that every time I need to stop when I drive above 35mph. That is a Big discount on that free lunch you talk about.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 08:47
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danielgr wrote:
Insightman wrote:
Before submitting the new Insight to the EPA to get the official numbers, I wouldn't expect Honda to say how good they expect the Insight to be. I just thought they should say it will exceed the Civic Hybrid's numbers. Remember, when Honda shows off the final production Insight at the Detroit show in January, Toyota will just be introducing their new Prius concept--they'll have plenty of time to buy a truckload of Insights to analyze them before the design of the new Prius is finalized. If the new Prius then fails to match the fuel economy of the new Insight, that will be apples-to-apples proof that Honda's "mild" IMA system is superior to Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive.

The big question is will Honda offer rear wheel covers for the new car so my two Insights will match? Just kidding (although a recent MPG contest-winning Prius did use rear wheel covers to beat out an Insight Classic using some stupid formula based on the car's results compared to its EPA-rated mileage).

Toyota has already release preliminary CO2 emissions for their next-gen Prius. Quoted at 92 gCO2/km it's already quite more efficient than the Civic Hybrid (109 gCO2/km). Sure we don't know nothing about its price, and those figures are "on EUDC cycle", which isn't EPA's, and isn't life.

That said, by renouncing to have "class-leading mpg figures" Honda is making a risky bet, which is the one that normal people are going to start buying hybrids.

For this car to be a success without improving on the Civic Hybrid mileage it will really need to:
- Be a great car by itself, not a car to buy "because of its fuel economy", but because of it being good at filling people's needs.
- Be offered at a price where the buyer doesn't feel he is paying a premium for driving "a hybrid". I wonder if they can make it "cheap enough".

Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 10:14
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
I also switch to 2nd gear or "S" on the shifter since it's a CVT it sends more energy back to the pack w/o using more fuel. I do that every time I need to stop when I drive above 35mph. That is a Big discount on that free lunch you talk about.


AFVM: I really enjoy reading your insider views on this forum. Some day when you come back to Ann Arbor, I'd love to meet you and take you to a free lunch at Zingermans. You can email me as john@ my website (websight?), insightman.com to let me know when you're coming. No posers please--this offer is extended only to the real AFVM ;^)


hbodu
Profile for hbodu
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 11:14
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For this car to be a success without improving on the Civic Hybrid mileage it will really need to:
- Be a great car by itself, not a car to buy "because of its fuel economy", but because of it being good at filling people's needs.
- Be offered at a price where the buyer doesn't feel he is paying a premium for driving "a hybrid". I wonder if they can make it "cheap enough".


You make a great point, which is why, I think, Honda did not offer a Hybrid Fit first. By producing a new model, they can slot it in their line-up without the price difference comparison. If it's priced, as rumored, in the $19K range, then it fits in the range of the Civic and lower than the Accord. If the car can stand on it's own in content (which is something Honda does well IMHO), then it will be a great sucess. If it shows an EPA rating of 45-50, it would offer a great alternative to a normally aspirated Civic at an EPA of 35.

dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 12:08
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As a fellow Insight owner I don't think most people grasp this concept. The best part of the Insight is the low weight and engine, though under powered.

The IMA system is a total hindrance.
Dumping the IMA system in favor of standard 12 volt alternator and some type of auto stop spin up motor would still save weight and the car would be better overall and still get the best MPG possible.

The current Civic Hyrbid has the most advance fuel efficient petrol motor in production in my opinion. The problem?
Its in a 2800lb car. Its completely backwards.

The IMA system would not be needed if they used current motor technology like that of the Civic Hybrid and used in it a car sub 2000 lbs.

Stevens24
Profile for Stevens24
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 12:30
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Pricing will be 15-18k according to what we've been told by Honda. So at that price I don't anticipate an issue with sales
Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 12:42
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Stevens24 wrote:
Pricing will be 15-18k according to what we've been told by Honda. So at that price I don't anticipate an issue with sales


It will sell real well at that price point.

Varmint
Profile for Varmint
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 13:06
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Stevens24 wrote:
Pricing will be 15-18k according to what we've been told by Honda. So at that price I don't anticipate an issue with sales

I've never seen anything like that number before.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 15:58
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Here in Texas gas is $3.00 a gallon now and falling. Honda was wise to pick a relative conservative number of 200K in comparison to the Civic and Accord numbers.

dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 17:31
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I will believe it when I see it. 15k is stretching it.
Thats Fit territory which won't happen.


Stevens24 wrote:
Pricing will be 15-18k according to what we've been told by Honda. So at that price I don't anticipate an issue with sales

Cj
Profile for Cj
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 17:56
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dezoris wrote:
I will believe it when I see it. 15k is stretching it.
Thats Fit territory which won't happen.


Stevens24 wrote:
Pricing will be 15-18k according to what we've been told by Honda. So at that price I don't anticipate an issue with sales


It's going to be $18,864

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=792749

.

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 18:43
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Insightman wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
I also switch to 2nd gear or "S" on the shifter since it's a CVT it sends more energy back to the pack w/o using more fuel. I do that every time I need to stop when I drive above 35mph. That is a Big discount on that free lunch you talk about.


AFVM: I really enjoy reading your insider views on this forum. Some day when you come back to Ann Arbor, I'd love to meet you and take you to a free lunch at Zingermans. You can email me as john@ my website (websight?), insightman.com to let me know when you're coming. No posers please--this offer is extended only to the real AFVM ;^)



Thanks, I do go over board sometimes, but I truly love what I do and I'm very tied to my job and Honda. I will take you up on that offer. Did you go to the Street fair?

I drove to Columbus today and I was running late. I drove 155 miles in 2 hours. I left at 10:30 and arived at 12:30 (had to be there @ 1pm) and still got 25mpg in the CRV I drove. On the way back it took me 2 hours and 40 min and 30.6mpg.

Hondasrule
Profile for Hondasrule
Re: Targeted fuel economy same as Civic Hybrid? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-03-2008 20:21
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I think the key is affordability and hatch versatility. Granted, people who can or are willing to spend whatever the most fuel efficient car costs will not get the Insight for its fuel efficiency alone, but for anyone who's budget is close to what this car will cost, fuel efficiency might still be the main reason to purchase - not delivering the highest MPG doesn't mean is not up there.
danielgr wrote:
[I...by renouncing to have "class-leading mpg figures" Honda is making a risky bet, which is the one that normal people are going to start buying hybrids.

For this car to be a success without improving on the Civic Hybrid mileage it will really need to:
- Be a great car by itself, not a car to buy "because of its fuel economy", but because of it being good at filling people's needs.
...with a premium of around 1,800 dollars for the IMA, (substantially lower than before) and with an MSRP potentially 2 to 3 grand lower than a Civic Hybrid or a Prius, I don't see why people would have an issue paying the smaller premium just because the MPG is not higher than cars costing thousands more.

- Be offered at a price where the buyer doesn't feel he is paying a premium for driving "a hybrid". I wonder if they can make it "cheap enough".



 
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