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  TOV News > Honda 2009 Model Year Change Summary > > Re: V6 Power Revisions

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CarPhreakD
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V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 00:25
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Seem to be just that, from the wording. I thought that 3 hp / 6 lb.ft might have meant some changes to the V6s but I guess it's just minor rewording. What's the point though?
2007RC46SP2
Profile for 2007RC46SP2
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 00:39
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same as the TSX
probably more power under the curve.
they could easily get the thing up on power with J37 mod's but MPG would fall.

Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 01:13
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It appears to me that Honda tweaked VCM version for more torque and (in Accord) managed to boost top end power as well. It doesn't sound like a simple rewording.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 02:12
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Wizard wrote:
It appears to me that Honda tweaked VCM version for more torque and (in Accord) managed to boost top end power as well. It doesn't sound like a simple rewording.


That's what I thought at first, and I posted my thoughts on it on two separate threads. But now, looking at the way this release was worded, it really doesn't seem like much has been revised at all; for example, why did Honda talk about the changes to the Ridgeline's V6 so much yet only mention in passing that the Accord V6 power ratings were modified to correct values?

Horsepower and torque ratings for V-6-equipped automatic transmission models modified to the correct, higher values

Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 02:49
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At the same time, however, they also pushed power and torque numbers for Odyssey w/VCM. So, they have done something with VCM equipped V6.
Texas
Profile for Texas
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 08:22
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Honda says ' modified to the correct, higher values' which to me means a correction in the values not the engine...?
tsxfan19
Profile for tsxfan19
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 08:35
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Agreed...

...I always felt like it was a marketing gimmick - as the new Camry had 268HP and 248 ft lbs of torque...it just seems like they are now publishing the actual numbers rather than having made costly changes to the engine in it's 2nd year of production.

saudi @honda.fan
Profile for saudi @honda.fan
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 10:33
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Seem to be just that, from the wording. I thought that 3 hp / 6 lb.ft might have meant some changes to the V6s but I guess it's just minor rewording. What's the point though?

CarPhreakD my 2008 v6 accord already rated 275 PS.
check this out
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=745614

2007RC46SP2
Profile for 2007RC46SP2
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 10:41
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saudi @honda.fan wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Seem to be just that, from the wording. I thought that 3 hp / 6 lb.ft might have meant some changes to the V6s but I guess it's just minor rewording. What's the point though?

CarPhreakD my 2008 v6 accord already rated 275 PS.
check this out
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=745614



1 PS pferdestarke = 0.9863201 horsepower
275PS = 271.238HP

Ignition_Key
Profile for Ignition_Key
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 11:02
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Im so MAD! This is not fair that they revised the HP numbers for the 09.

Actually befoer the 098's were released the Accord was rated at 271HP and then all of a sudden they dropped it to 268. A lot of people were bummed on that one!

2007RC46SP2
Profile for 2007RC46SP2
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 11:16
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how about when they revised the numbers and the MDX went from 265hp to 253.
tsxfan19
Profile for tsxfan19
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 11:23
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Ignition_Key wrote:
Actually befoer the 098's were released the Accord was rated at 271HP and then all of a sudden they dropped it to 268. A lot of people were bummed on that one!


MotorTrend seemed to believe that the Accord was rated at 273HP prior to its official release last September...wonder where those numbers came from


http://www.motortrend.com/av/roadtests/112_0708_2008_honda_accord_2007_toyota_camry_video/index.html

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 11:25
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2007RC46SP2 wrote:
how about when they revised the numbers and the MDX went from 265hp to 253.


SAE standards corrections. This is also why the TL's original 270hp dropped to 258. Not because the engine is different, but the methodology to test for horsepower was changed.

PolishedMetal6MT
Profile for PolishedMetal6MT
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 12:47
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If you all recall, the number was 273 hp a day or so before its release last September. As the wording of the revision suggests, it's just a marketing scheme to make the 09s look better, as if it's been improved somehow...more perceived value. Honda can just as well bump the number to 273 next year if they feel like it. There is no mechanical changes, just rewording.
Potenza
Profile for Potenza
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 14:59
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Wizard wrote:
At the same time, however, they also pushed power and torque numbers for Odyssey w/VCM. So, they have done something with VCM equipped V6.
But didn't the numbers change for the manual transmission V6 too? If I recall, there is no VCM on manual transmission cars.

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 16:59
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So the Honda Accords V6 numbers look good on paper but the VCM model will still get its arse handed to it by just about all the major players in the segment. The Camry, Malibu and Altima should still be faster.

Honda should have left the numbers alone until they can figure out how to implement the VCM without effecting performance and the power under the curve while still getting better than average fuel economy. Better yet... dump the VCM and implement a nice 6AT.



-Patrick

frainc
Profile for frainc
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 18:12
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I don't know about all of you who worry about HP and how fast it goes, but I got my Accord because its the best family car right now.

I'm sure people don't care about hp from 271 to 268, who cares! It's not like you going to notice 3 hp more.

I'll go for the 6AT, that will go a long way, but I don't care if the Camry, Malibu or Altima are faster, they are to me, a lesser total car.

By the way, I have a 2008 EX-L V6, and love that engine.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 18:35
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frainc wrote:
I don't know about all of you who worry about HP and how fast it goes, but I got my Accord because its the best family car right now.

I'm sure people don't care about hp from 271 to 268, who cares! It's not like you going to notice 3 hp more.

I'll go for the 6AT, that will go a long way, but I don't care if the Camry, Malibu or Altima are faster, they are to me, a lesser total car.

A V6 with 6AT would undoubtedly help both fuel economy and power... but the earliest we'll see something like that would be an MMC

By the way, I have a 2008 EX-L V6, and love that engine.



You're absolutely correct. However, it's not something that enthusiasts can really help doing =P 3 peak hp might not seem a lot, but it could also mean that the rest of the engine power curve, especially in the midrange, got a massive bump in power. Case in point is the TSX's engine, which actually lost 4 peak hp but gained torque and hp throughout the rest of the rev range, making it a much more powerful engine "on average".

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 19:07
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CivicB18 wrote:

Honda should have left the numbers alone until they can figure out how to implement the VCM without effecting performance and the power under the curve while still getting better than average fuel economy. Better yet... dump the VCM and implement a nice 6AT.



-Patrick


AMEN! I hope Honda is listening and taking stock of what a worthless POS VCM is. It's nothing more than a marketing ploy at this point. I get 30MPG on the highway with my V6 6MT Sedan. If they added a 6AT and concentrated on the "pumping losses" like they did with the 1.8 in the Civic, they'd hit the marks for both power and efficiency without unnaturally shutting off cylinders and unbalancing the engine for no real gain in economy. VCM has made the Accord sedan like a girl stuffing her bra: you pull up next to her and see a hot 271HP C cup and then when you get her shirt off, she's just an A cup that can barely accelerate to 3rd base. C'mon Honda, lets get back to substance, not hype.

91Si
Profile for 91Si
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 19:11
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There are a lot of wrong assumptions in this thread, here's the real deal:

1. The Ridgeline engine really is revised, it's hp and tq up are increases in power
2. The Odyssey and Accord are only up on paper, the 3hp was always there, if you have an 08 it's exactly the same, now you can tell your friends the new number
3. This has nothing to do with SAE, Honda has been using the revised SAE calculations for 2 years already, that has not changed
4. Originally Honda announced to the press that the V6 made 273hp but internal testing of production engines showed a little less
5. As a result Honda went a little over conservative in rating the 08 Accord and Odyssey, however after a year of engine data they realized that the engines were consistently at the higher level
5. If anyone thinks that this was done on purpose to have the same number as Camry in 08 you are nuts, WHY would anyone intentionally match their leading competitor if they were sure they could beat them?

tsxfan19
Profile for tsxfan19
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 19:14
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gofast182 wrote:

VCM has made the Accord sedan like a girl stuffing her bra: you pull up next to her and see a hot 271HP C cup and then when you get her shirt off, she's just an A cup that can barely accelerate to 3rd base. C'mon Honda, lets get back to substance, not hype.




that's some analogy! LMAO

Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 20:39
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CivicB18 wrote:
Better yet... dump the VCM and implement a nice 6AT.


I will take VCM over a "fuel economy" 6AT anyday.

Carzzz
Profile for Carzzz
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 20:56
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well, i think Honda low end torque + tall 6th gear = downshift to 5th :D
Ignition_Key
Profile for Ignition_Key
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 22:15
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91Si wrote:
There are a lot of wrong assumptions in this thread, here's the real deal:

1. The Ridgeline engine really is revised, it's hp and tq up are increases in power
2. The Odyssey and Accord are only up on paper, the 3hp was always there, if you have an 08 it's exactly the same, now you can tell your friends the new number
3. This has nothing to do with SAE, Honda has been using the revised SAE calculations for 2 years already, that has not changed
4. Originally Honda announced to the press that the V6 made 273hp but internal testing of production engines showed a little less
5. As a result Honda went a little over conservative in rating the 08 Accord and Odyssey, however after a year of engine data they realized that the engines were consistently at the higher level
5. If anyone thinks that this was done on purpose to have the same number as Camry in 08 you are nuts, WHY would anyone intentionally match their leading competitor if they were sure they could beat them?



I guess that pretty much sums it up!

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-05-2008 22:33
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Wizard wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
Better yet... dump the VCM and implement a nice 6AT.


I will take VCM over a "fuel economy" 6AT anyday.



With the current Accord V6 setup you get the power robbing (dyno proven) VCM system and the "fuel economy" wide geared 5AT. Youre telling me that you would give up the added performance and fuel economy of a non VCM V6 and 6AT combo to the current Accord drivetrain? The Toyota Camry V6 has proven that you can have the best of both worlds why should Accord owners expect or accept less? Everyone here knows Honda can do better, much better.



-Patrick

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2008 01:15
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CivicB18 wrote:
So the Honda Accords V6 numbers look good on paper but the VCM model will still get its arse handed to it by just about all the major players in the segment. The Camry, Malibu and Altima should still be faster.

Honda should have left the numbers alone until they can figure out how to implement the VCM without effecting performance and the power under the curve while still getting better than average fuel economy. Better yet... dump the VCM and implement a nice 6AT.



-Patrick




Define "arse" handed to it, because none of the cars in the segment really outrun it enough to make that much of a difference. Every number I have seen for the Malibu, puts it within a few 10ths in the 1/4 mile. That will seriously be less than a car lenght. Some have been slightly slower, some have been slightly faster. The overall consensus seems to be that the Malibu pulls a little better off the line, and the Accord brings it back in up top, which would jive with the power curve on the VCM J35, the extra displacement of the Malibu, and its 6 speed auto, vs the Accords 5 speed with a tall 1st gear. Don't forget too that the Malibu is heavier than the Accord as well, as well as making less HP, and equal torque at a lower RPM.

As for the Altima and Camry, I am still waiting to see some video of these cars running each other, because again, assuming the Camry really is running 13's stock (in most cases mid to high 14's is probably far more realistic), it still isn't going to put that huge of a distance on the AV6.

Not to mention that in the real world, things like the interior quality, fit and finish, build quality etc are going to hold far more sway than which car finishes a couple lengths ahead of the others in the 1/4 mile.

I hate to say it, because I am one, but most enthusiasts who don't temper their tastes of reality, end up with a very skewed version of it.

Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2008 01:57
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CivicB18 wrote:
With the current Accord V6 setup you get the power robbing (dyno proven) VCM system and the "fuel economy" wide geared 5AT. Youre telling me that you would give up the added performance and fuel economy of a non VCM V6 and 6AT combo to the current Accord drivetrain? The Toyota Camry V6 has proven that you can have the best of both worlds why should Accord owners expect or accept less? Everyone here knows Honda can do better, much better.

How much more performance do folks need? J35/VCM appears comparable to J32 in my TL which is more than is necessary to keep up with the Joneses. Why must Honda offer the best drag racer in the business?

Toyota is fine for those who couldn't care less about aggressiveness. Often to the extent that it sucks (especially in FWD models, and AWD based on it). Honda's logic is usually more aggressive.

BTW, you don't need 6AT to do what Camry accomplishes. Accord could do the same with 5AT, but is that the whole point? One of the things I have liked about Honda is that it rarely takes complete control away from the driver. VCM is another prime example of it. You know how to use it, you can get the best out of it. Toyota is "nanny-driven" approach.

6AT, for all it can offer, is better suited to likes of TSX and SH-AWD/RWD drive trains. Those are the kind where its wide span would come in handy. Interestingly enough, Toyota's FWD/6AT has a very 5AT like gear span.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2008 02:19
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Wizard wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
With the current Accord V6 setup you get the power robbing (dyno proven) VCM system and the "fuel economy" wide geared 5AT. Youre telling me that you would give up the added performance and fuel economy of a non VCM V6 and 6AT combo to the current Accord drivetrain? The Toyota Camry V6 has proven that you can have the best of both worlds why should Accord owners expect or accept less? Everyone here knows Honda can do better, much better.

Interestingly enough, Toyota's FWD/6AT has a very 5AT like gear span.



This is actually quite true, in fact, I believe that through the first 3 or so gears, the Camry and the Accord practically redline at the same speeds, which considering the Camry has a lower redline, would indicate even potentially higher gearing.

My main complaint about the Accord tranny is that there are certain places where you get stuck in a whole between gears. 55-60MPH is a good example. It is too high to drop down to 2nd, but 3rd isn't doing its best pulling yet. Perform the same pass at 70, and it isn't a problem, but at 55-60 you are left wanting. Of course, that is based on a 3 liter 7th gen, although what seat time I do have in an 08, it only felt marginally stronger.

Really, my only hope for a 6AT in the Accord would be to lower 1st gear some, and then help to eliminate the 1 or 2 gearing holes that you run into. Of course, depending on how the 6 speed was setup, it wouldn't necessarily eliminate those problems just because it was a 6 AT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GODBd-e1X1U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-Y_vSuU0UI&feature=related

Notice that they are shifting at very similar speeds, although the 7th gen Accords shift slightly shy of redline.

I have also noticed, because we have an 04 V6 and an 06 V6, that Honda DID revise the gearing slightly. 1st gear on the 04 shifts about 5MPH higher than on the 06, but the 06 has a bigger 2nd to 3rd gear hole.





CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2008 10:22
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owequitit wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
So the Honda Accords V6 numbers look good on paper but the VCM model will still get its arse handed to it by just about all the major players in the segment. The Camry, Malibu and Altima should still be faster.

Honda should have left the numbers alone until they can figure out how to implement the VCM without effecting performance and the power under the curve while still getting better than average fuel economy. Better yet... dump the VCM and implement a nice 6AT.



-Patrick




Define "arse" handed to it, because none of the cars in the segment really outrun it enough to make that much of a difference. Every number I have seen for the Malibu, puts it within a few 10ths in the 1/4 mile. That will seriously be less than a car lenght. Some have been slightly slower, some have been slightly faster. The overall consensus seems to be that the Malibu pulls a little better off the line, and the Accord brings it back in up top, which would jive with the power curve on the VCM J35, the extra displacement of the Malibu, and its 6 speed auto, vs the Accords 5 speed with a tall 1st gear. Don't forget too that the Malibu is heavier than the Accord as well, as well as making less HP, and equal torque at a lower RPM.

As for the Altima and Camry, I am still waiting to see some video of these cars running each other, because again, assuming the Camry really is running 13's stock (in most cases mid to high 14's is probably far more realistic), it still isn't going to put that huge of a distance on the AV6.

Not to mention that in the real world, things like the interior quality, fit and finish, build quality etc are going to hold far more sway than which car finishes a couple lengths ahead of the others in the 1/4 mile.

I hate to say it, because I am one, but most enthusiasts who don't temper their tastes of reality, end up with a very skewed version of it.




Camry running 13's? Gathering from all the articles Ive read on the Camry V6 they pretty much consistently run 14.50s with a trap in the 95 mph range, thats pretty quick. To add to that Toyota V6 is pretty efficient also as it gives up NOTHING to the Accord regarding efficiency yet it delivers the performance expected.


Im certainly not saying that overall power is a deal breaker in this segment but I dont think the current VCM V6/5AT is anywhere near Honda best effort.



-Patrick

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: V6 Power Revisions [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2008 11:01
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Wizard wrote:
CivicB18 wrote:
With the current Accord V6 setup you get the power robbing (dyno proven) VCM system and the "fuel economy" wide geared 5AT. Youre telling me that you would give up the added performance and fuel economy of a non VCM V6 and 6AT combo to the current Accord drivetrain? The Toyota Camry V6 has proven that you can have the best of both worlds why should Accord owners expect or accept less? Everyone here knows Honda can do better, much better.

How much more performance do folks need? J35/VCM appears comparable to J32 in my TL which is more than is necessary to keep up with the Joneses. Why must Honda offer the best drag racer in the business?

Toyota is fine for those who couldn't care less about aggressiveness. Often to the extent that it sucks (especially in FWD models, and AWD based on it). Honda's logic is usually more aggressive.

BTW, you don't need 6AT to do what Camry accomplishes. Accord could do the same with 5AT, but is that the whole point? One of the things I have liked about Honda is that it rarely takes complete control away from the driver. VCM is another prime example of it. You know how to use it, you can get the best out of it. Toyota is "nanny-driven" approach.

6AT, for all it can offer, is better suited to likes of TSX and SH-AWD/RWD drive trains. Those are the kind where its wide span would come in handy. Interestingly enough, Toyota's FWD/6AT has a very 5AT like gear span.



I dont expect or ask Honda to be the fastest in each segment. I do however expect similar or top of the class drivetrain performance and fuel efficiency and I was let down with the VCM V6. As everyone knows the bottom end / midrange power sucks as the implementation of the VCM system limits torque production substantially. The lack of power/torque is right where the average driver would keep engine speeds on a daily basis. I would have absolutely no problem with the system if it didnt have its performance penalties with little to no real world gains in fuel efficiency.

The Accord V6/5AT doensnt have the fun, peppy, eager drivetrain experience that that Ive come to expect from Honda. The V6 offered with the 6MT is a whole different animal all together and its been proven by the dyno, almost a night and day difference.

When my father and step mother first purchased their 2005 Toyota Avalon Limted (268hp V6/5AT) I kept it for about 6 days as I had to drive them to the airport in northern Ky. near Cincinatti, OH. We live about 110 miles south of Cinci and the car had around 5500 miles on it. Im by no means a fuel miser when it comes to driving but I got 30-31mpg on the way back with the A/C on and my speed was around 75mph. In a car larger than even the current Accord, similar ON PAPER power and a 5AT I got better numbers with ALL cylinders firing from the Toyota.

As said many many many times before on TOV, a 6AT would certainly help the Honda and Acura line so Im not sure why one would think it would only benefit or be better suited for the Acura vehicles. They have similar drivetrains (just more powerful versions) which would help with performance and effieciency accross the board, Honda or Acura.

In the end Toyota/Lexus have a refined class leading 3.5L V6 and it doesnt sacrifice performance or economy as you get the best of both worlds. I expected similar or even better (performance/economy) from Honda. Is that too much to ask?



-Patrick



 
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