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  TOV News > Guangzhou Honda reveals new propietary brand -- LiNian ("Idea") > > Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas

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CarPhreakD
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Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 10:14
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I think the main idea behind creating a new sub brand is because Honda doesn't want to tarnish its main company image by producing inexpensive, de-contented vehicles (that may not meet safety and emission standards in other parts of the world). By having Guanzhou Honda take the brunt of the R&D and manufacturing costs, it's also a low-risk, low investment and potentially high return business case.

To be honest though, the Guanzhong factory is highly modernized and the Honda Fits (er.. Jazzes) that flows out of there has quality on par with every other Honda plant out there in the world. Lean manufacturing, 5S+1, the famous white Honda work uniforms, it's all there. There is no reason to doubt, with the right R&D, that this new company can't make exciting, inexpensive vehicles to serve developing markets. It's pretty exciting to see Honda start a new chapter in their history and I certainly wish it great success.

Btw, it's written "理念" in Chinese, and yes, it more or less translates into idea.

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 10:41
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I think the main idea behind creating a new sub brand is because Honda doesn't want to tarnish its main company image by producing inexpensive, de-contented vehicles (that may not meet safety and emission standards in other parts of the world). By having Guanzhou Honda take the brunt of the R&D and manufacturing costs, it's also a low-risk, low investment and potentially high return business case.

To be honest though, the Guanzhong factory is highly modernized and the Honda Fits (er.. Jazzes) that flows out of there has quality on par with every other Honda plant out there in the world. Lean manufacturing, 5S+1, the famous white Honda work uniforms, it's all there. There is no reason to doubt, with the right R&D, that this new company can't make exciting, inexpensive vehicles to serve developing markets. It's pretty exciting to see Honda start a new chapter in their history and I certainly wish it great success.

Btw, it's written "—¯”O" in Chinese, and yes, it more or less translates into idea.


Ok, I think the other way CarPhreakD, my "IDEA" is that they are preping for a launch in the U.S. in 2010 or 2011 as a SCION challenger. After all SCION is made for Toyota with Dihatsu (spelled it wrong, but u get the idea) as a joint venture.

If Honda produces different looking hip cars like in the picture at or around a starting price in the 12 to 13k nicely equipt, then they got something.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 10:57
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Toyota OWNS Daihatsu.

It's not like Scion has been very successful... after Toyota screwed up the xB it has become a brand for old people, once again.

If the cars are developed specifically for the Chinese market, chances are the design won't (immediately at least) be transferable to North America. Not saying it won't happen... it would be interesting to see but I don't really see many benefits for Honda to bring cheap cars to the US, ones that might have to be extensively redesigned to pass emissions and safety here?

Also, I think with North American mentality towards the Chinese (since we're all evil apparently), that most would rather buy a 20 year old Buick than an all-new car built in China.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 11:02
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I think the main idea behind creating a new sub brand is because Honda doesn't want to tarnish its main company image by producing inexpensive, de-contented vehicles (that may not meet safety and emission standards in other parts of the world). By having Guanzhou Honda take the brunt of the R&D and manufacturing costs, it's also a low-risk, low investment and potentially high return business case.

To be honest though, the Guanzhong factory is highly modernized and the Honda Fits (er.. Jazzes) that flows out of there has quality on par with every other Honda plant out there in the world. Lean manufacturing, 5S+1, the famous white Honda work uniforms, it's all there. There is no reason to doubt, with the right R&D, that this new company can't make exciting, inexpensive vehicles to serve developing markets. It's pretty exciting to see Honda start a new chapter in their history and I certainly wish it great success. [...]


Well, I don't really agree with you.

I think that Honda is following the same philosophy that has rapidly moved them to the top China manufacturers league, which is preciselly: don't treat Chinese as second-level customers.

When Honda sales soared from literally nothing to the top at the beginning of the 2000's, the recipe was simple: stop bringing Chinese people old cheap cars as VW and PSA had been doing for years, bring them the same cars you sell globally. Sure you don't need to keep quality as high as in Europe or Japan (and that's why Honda Chinese plants only build cars for China with the exception of the small Europe-export-only one), but still, bring the same stuff. In a few years though, the competition has catched up, and they have more or less leveled at the top.

Now Honda is moving ahead again, by not only bringing their global products to China, but also developing and producing new ones specifically for them. It's not about making cheap-decontented stuff, it's about making 1st class products adapted for their tastes.

When in 2007 Honda started operations on their R&D centre in China, they were the first ones. Recently other automakers have announced similar plans, but now Honda goes even further and introduce a whole new brand. You can bet that others will follow.

As for the idea of why not simply using the Honda brand. I think again that you missed the point. It's not because it's going to be low-key cars when compared with Honda. Actually, if you look at that concept, it could be more Acura than Honda... it's not cheap stuff. To me the real point is to challenge one of the handicaps of Japanese companies in China against Europeans: Chinese people don't like Japanese. You may go as far as you want studying the mutual history of both countries to understand it, but it's still a fact. For the same reason Honda needed a new brand (Acura) in NA to sell their cars to reacher customers, it could help them much to use a "Chinese" brand to sell in China.
Those cars will certainly benefit of all the platform/hard-engineering technology of the mother Japanese Honda (like do the American "designed" Honda's), but they will be used in China developed, China built cars under a Chinese brand. There is a lot of "proudness-games" being played here, and I'm sure a Chinese buyer won't feel the same driving a "Honda" than a "Li Nian".
Sure there will be people saying "it's just a re-badged Honda" (does this remind you something?), but there will still be lots of people buying Li Nian's that may have never consider buying a Honda (as there are for Acura).

To me this is a major news for the company, and I will go as far as saying that it had an important role to play in today's Honda share's rise of almost 9% in the Japanese market (sure it was not the only one).


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 11:18
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I tried to keep the way Chinese people feel about Japanese people out of this, but yes, being Chinese I know the reasons why
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 11:29
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I think the main idea behind creating a new sub brand is because Honda doesn't want to tarnish its main company image by producing inexpensive, de-contented vehicles (that may not meet safety and emission standards in other parts of the world). By having Guanzhou Honda take the brunt of the R&D and manufacturing costs, it's also a low-risk, low investment and potentially high return business case.

To be honest though, the Guanzhong factory is highly modernized and the Honda Fits (er.. Jazzes) that flows out of there has quality on par with every other Honda plant out there in the world. Lean manufacturing, 5S+1, the famous white Honda work uniforms, it's all there. There is no reason to doubt, with the right R&D, that this new company can't make exciting, inexpensive vehicles to serve developing markets. It's pretty exciting to see Honda start a new chapter in their history and I certainly wish it great success. [...]


By the way, I also don't think that there is so much "risk sharing" reasoning behind this move, but more of a signal of consideration for the Chinese market. The fact that it's a joint-venture was imposed by China's government laws, and for practical reasons it makes more sense for Honda to keep on working on their ventures rather than developing a separate entity that may not even be legal (and wouldn't be "Chinese").

It seems that Honda has finally understood that as great as their R&D and engineering capabilities may be, customers around the globe are not seeking for the same cars as Japanese would. In the past they've been trying to let their Japanese staff figure out what would be better for each market. Nowadays you can see that Honda is increasingly transferring car development to their regional so called "R&D" centres.
It's not risk sharing, it's understanding that American's are the best positioned people to figure out what do American's want. So basic core technologies are developed in Japan and given to them to build a car for their markets. That's what has made AHM as successful as it has been, despite the understandable enthusiast critics for many things.

Honda's recent success in Europe could easily largely be attributed to the same approach, and now it seems that China is going to follow.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 11:34
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danielgr wrote:
[...] It's not risk sharing, it's understanding that American's are the best positioned people to figure out what do American's want. So basic core technologies are developed in Japan and given to them to build a car for their markets. That's what has made AHM as successful as it has been, despite the understandable enthusiast critics for many things.

Honda's recent success in Europe could easily largely be attributed to the same approach, and now it seems that China is going to follow.


And btw, that's not just "Honda's exclusivity", it's for sure also one of the main reasons why Ford and Opel/Vauxhall (GM) cars have been so successful in Europe for decades.

Honda-D
Profile for Honda-D
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 12:01
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Chinese law prohibits foreign ownership. Chinese will always own 51%.

Honda probably don't have much say in this other than play along.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 12:31
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Also, don't forget that China is a centralist, communist country;

there has been a diktat issued by the state that chinese companies must end their dependent relationships with foreign brands and develop their own 'patriotic' brands.

So despite the success of Shanghai VW, etc, they've developed Roewe as a home-grown brand and now Guangzhou is following suit.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 15:19
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It amazes me how blind capitalists can be to make a buck.

The Commie Chinese Gov. happily announces that they have a "stable" working force. Huh? Yeah, right... they better be stable or they get a bullet in the head... and the family will get to pay the cost of the bullet.

The bottomline is that the Communist Government of Mainland China has made a devil's pact with the hegemonist imperialists and, regardless of what it may look like on the surface, the Chinese people have little or no freedom and are subject to capricious police control.

Don't think so? Hmmm.... Tibet anyone?

Honda-D
Profile for Honda-D
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 15:30
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TonyE wrote:
Don't think so? Hmmm.... Tibet anyone?



This thread is not going to end well. If I'm a mod, I would delete it now. :D

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 15:56
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Toyota OWNS Daihatsu.

It's not like Scion has been very successful... after Toyota screwed up the xB it has become a brand for old people, once again.

If the cars are developed specifically for the Chinese market, chances are the design won't (immediately at least) be transferable to North America. Not saying it won't happen... it would be interesting to see but I don't really see many benefits for Honda to bring cheap cars to the US, ones that might have to be extensively redesigned to pass emissions and safety here?

Also, I think with North American mentality towards the Chinese (since we're all evil apparently), that most would rather buy a 20 year old Buick than an all-new car built in China.



Also, I think with North American mentality towards the Chinese (since we're all evil apparently), that most would rather buy a 20 year old Buick than an all-new car built in China.

I'm not so sure about that. Most people don't know where or care where their car was built, and if it is built in China and it's made by Honda, most wouldn't care as long as it's fuel efficent and has clean emissions. You can bank on Honda won't lower their enviromentle and safty standards for the Chinese market.

There is a market for small cheap cars, look at "SMART", who the hell would drive one of those things, but they are sold out.

HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN A 20 YEAR OLD BUICK? YOU WOULD BUY A CHINESE CAR IF YOU DID LOL!

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 23:39
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The truth hurts.

This has nothing to do with the people of China, it has everything to do with the government of China.

And yes, I am very concerned that Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, GE, Boeing, et. al. are all selling themselves to the Chinese Government.

Honda-D wrote:
TonyE wrote:
Don't think so? Hmmm.... Tibet anyone?



This thread is not going to end well. If I'm a mod, I would delete it now. :D



HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2008 23:47
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danielgr wrote:
danielgr wrote:
[...] It's not risk sharing, it's understanding that American's are the best positioned people to figure out what do American's want. So basic core technologies are developed in Japan and given to them to build a car for their markets. That's what has made AHM as successful as it has been, despite the understandable enthusiast critics for many things.

Honda's recent success in Europe could easily largely be attributed to the same approach, and now it seems that China is going to follow.


And btw, that's not just "Honda's exclusivity", it's for sure also one of the main reasons why Ford and Opel/Vauxhall (GM) cars have been so successful in Europe for decades.


YOU! can be my wing man any time! Good job of dysecting the reasoning of the move and the pride of the Japanese. Both Chinese and Japanese Are proud people and if this is a start in relations between countries to unite through business instead of devide through hate and past conflict, I'm all for it.

The more trade and business countries exchange the less likely they will have a conflict and start a war. I agree with you danielgr, I know it's rare, but you nailed this one and I still think Honda can use this as a future brand as an entery level carfor America.

vtecvroomvroom
Profile for vtecvroomvroom
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2008 19:03
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Funny name Honda chooses to use.
In Chinese culture puns are very commonplace and is somehow seen as an art if used correctly. Li Nian, IMHO, "Concept" is a better term to use than "idea" (even though they are very very similar).

So, it's just a "concept car".

I'm not surprised with this name.
Honda has the tradition of using 2 chinese characters that sound similar to the English name, but also has some meanings in the term.

e.g.
Fit is Fei Du -> "Like Flying"
Prelude is Pei Lu -> "To reveal"
and
Civic is Xi Wi(sp?) -> The little place inside your mind for high-level thinking.

blackstripe77
Profile for blackstripe77
Re: Power of Dreams, and now, ideas [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2008 08:11
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TonyE, that really isn't necessary, is it?

Look harder, and maybe you would see what the Chinese government is doing to continue to promote growth and improve standards in all aspects, while trying to keep the rate of inflation under control. China calls themselves communists, but really don't operate like one. And really, what would you consider a stable workforce, and how would you have to "act stable"? Being "unstable", if that is even possible, will not get you the death penalty. Although I'll give you that if you're stupid enough to find yourself in that situation I have heard you might have to pay for your own bullet. The people do have freedom, and regardless of what it may look like to your through the magnifiers of the foreign press, the Chinese are doing just fine, thank you very much.

Although there are many impoverished areas in the country, China's brought massive amounts of people out of poverty in the last ten years. China's growing at a really high rate, and no matter what their relationship with Japan is like, you still can't deny it.

Initially, I thought they were using a spin-off because it is designed and will be built by Guangzhou Honda, who have learned how to build cars through their partnership with Honda. Not Honda. But a Chinese company who also happens to build Honda's.

And Tibet. So tell me, how does sports and politics relate?


 
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