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  TOV Articles > TOV Dyno Test: 2009 Acura TSX 6MT > > Re: Sensible

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Neilap
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Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 10:09
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Its nice to see that Honda has built a car that has improvement in the way of refinement not just the search for power. Everything has its place and while many of us await Honda/Acura to build cars to compete with the G37 etc. there are still cars that deliver all that most would ever need from a car. The fact is that power figures sell cars but are useless and more of an ego builder for the driver than anything else.

Its inevitable that Honda will build cars for the self aggrandizing and true hp/performance fanatics. The TL may be the first to aim in that direction. However, the core of Acura buyers are not BMW buyers so I think their progressive approach is prudent.

Bepperb
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 10:32
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I don't. I think people will test drive this, and it will turn them off to the entire brand. Unless you have been driving a sub 2 liter car, this will feel like a complete dog. Test driving this back to back with a V6 Camry/Accord/Altima/Maxima/Malibu will make that even more apparent. Any luxury car in the 32k range will blow this away completely.

Honestly, can you name me one car that someone would test drive back to back with this and prefer this powertrain?

Prudent? Creating a product that will have strong demand is prudent. This is equivelant to someone releasing a mp3 player with 512mb of memory for $199 and hoping people won't notice anything else. Or selling Jeans with only one back pocket.

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 13:27
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Bepperb wrote:
I don't. I think people will test drive this, and it will turn them off to the entire brand. Unless you have been driving a sub 2 liter car, this will feel like a complete dog. Test driving this back to back with a V6 Camry/Accord/Altima/Maxima/Malibu will make that even more apparent. Any luxury car in the 32k range will blow this away completely.

Honestly, can you name me one car that someone would test drive back to back with this and prefer this powertrain?

Prudent? Creating a product that will have strong demand is prudent. This is equivelant to someone releasing a mp3 player with 512mb of memory for $199 and hoping people won't notice anything else. Or selling Jeans with only one back pocket.



If all you want is more power, there's the TL. Have you driven the new TSX yet? How do you know it feels like a "complete dog"?

Just one car? I can name a few: IS250, 323i, C230.


80honda
Profile for 80honda
Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 14:42
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Bepperb wrote:
I don't. I think people will test drive this, and it will turn them off to the entire brand. Unless you have been driving a sub 2 liter car, this will feel like a complete dog. Test driving this back to back with a V6 Camry/Accord/Altima/Maxima/Malibu will make that even more apparent. Any luxury car in the 32k range will blow this away completely.

Honestly, can you name me one car that someone would test drive back to back with this and prefer this powertrain?

Prudent? Creating a product that will have strong demand is prudent. This is equivelant to someone releasing a mp3 player with 512mb of memory for $199 and hoping people won't notice anything else. Or selling Jeans with only one back pocket.




How about the 168hp Volvo S40. Same price range.....

Hondarulez
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 16:01
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And 170lbft of torque too, which is gain less than the TSX.

And yea, the S40 might start at $31.5k CAD, but that does not include that's not including leather seats, 17" wheels, power seats, sunroof, heated seats, automatic climate control, premium audio system, automatic transmission, and a lot of other things that come standard on the TSX. Adding those (HID cannot be chosen) and price is $39245CAD. That does not include the $1615CAD freight and dealer preparation. However, that's including the package discount of $1600, and cash incentive of $1500. Otherwise, it would have been a lot more.

Bottom line is, TSX might not be the best car on Earth or in its own segment, but it's far from the worst.

Bepperb
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 17:06
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How do you know it feels like a "complete dog"?

Because I've driven an Accord with a K24 in it. 10 ft lbs isn't enough to make a difference. Now I'm shopping for a 06/07 6-6 Accord Sedan. I don't need to test drive this, it will have the same transmission and give up quite a bit of power. If you think gaining 12 ft lbs of torque is good, you'll have to agree that gaining 50 is better. The extra 43 hp don't hurt the Accord either. But I still wouldn't put that J30 into the league of the G35, CTS, Legacy GT or other entry level "sport sedans" and I sure wouldn't charge 32k for it.

Yup, the TL is much nicer. You'd think a company that clearly knows how to make a decent luxury car would be able to make two. Instead we'll see six months of good sales from repeat customers, then an indefinate malaise until they can put some spark into this otherwise good vehicle.

Maybe they're sticking us with this so the 2.2l diesel looks fast in a paper comparison!

Seriously, you don't think the K23 or a reworked J30 would have been much better choices? I think AVTEC didn't make it in time, and this is a stop gap measure.

Hondarulez
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2008 00:24
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Bepperb wrote:
How do you know it feels like a "complete dog"?

Because I've driven an Accord with a K24 in it. 10 ft lbs isn't enough to make a difference. Now I'm shopping for a 06/07 6-6 Accord Sedan. I don't need to test drive this, it will have the same transmission and give up quite a bit of power. If you think gaining 12 ft lbs of torque is good, you'll have to agree that gaining 50 is better. The extra 43 hp don't hurt the Accord either. But I still wouldn't put that J30 into the league of the G35, CTS, Legacy GT or other entry level "sport sedans" and I sure wouldn't charge 32k for it.

Yup, the TL is much nicer. You'd think a company that clearly knows how to make a decent luxury car would be able to make two. Instead we'll see six months of good sales from repeat customers, then an indefinate malaise until they can put some spark into this otherwise good vehicle.

Maybe they're sticking us with this so the 2.2l diesel looks fast in a paper comparison!

Seriously, you don't think the K23 or a reworked J30 would have been much better choices? I think AVTEC didn't make it in time, and this is a stop gap measure.



Obviously, if you are comparing to a V6, then the TSX is slow. But it's on par with say, the IS250, 323i, C230, and faster than the S40 2.4 for sure.

And of course, I wouldn't compare an Accord to G35, CTS etc as it clearly competes with Camry and Altima.

I guess my point is that, its price isn't really that high for what it offers. Its base price, which is already pretty much fully loaded, is well below its competition, such as the IS250. If offers pretty much the same kind of power and performance too if that's what you are interested in. What you don't get is the Lexus name, but that's why the TSX is a few grand cheaper than a base IS250.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, as I have mentioned in other posts, they better have a more powerful engine. There's going to be a big gap between the TSX and the next gen TL (200hp vs 280hp). And I agree, having a J30 for 32k wouldn't be that bad of an idea for competing against 328i, C300, ,S40 T5, and possibly the non-DI CTS. Remember, the non-DI CTS isn't that fast due to its 4000+lb curve weight.

Bepperb
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2008 09:25
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I just think that if they had put the J30 from the last gen Accord, then required premium that's 250hp and 215 ftlbs right there. Some new cams to move the powerband up, or leave it as is. And the last gen Accord V6 and TSX had the same mileage, so there wouldn't be a huge penalty. That would have had me in the showrooms.

Also, keep in mind for 28,500 msrp, one can have the Volvo S40 with a turbo making 225hp and 236ftlbs.

Hondarulez
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2008 13:26
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Bepperb wrote:
I just think that if they had put the J30 from the last gen Accord, then required premium that's 250hp and 215 ftlbs right there. Some new cams to move the powerband up, or leave it as is. And the last gen Accord V6 and TSX had the same mileage, so there wouldn't be a huge penalty. That would have had me in the showrooms.

Also, keep in mind for 28,500 msrp, one can have the Volvo S40 with a turbo making 225hp and 236ftlbs.



I would definitely agree that the J30 would be a good option on the TSX.

I priced out a S40 in Volvo Canada yesterday. I used the 2.4i as the base, which is $31-31k CAD. The problem is, it's a base model, meaning no leather interior, no automatic, no sunroof, no power seats, no memory seats, no premium audio system, no automatic climate control, 170hp, no HID's, 16" wheels, as well as many other things that come standard on the TSX. I added some of those features, and the price went to over $40k CAD, you can try it out. If you were to have the T5, then the price would go even higher. In Canada, the TL starts at $42k, by the time you load the S40 base model similar to the TSX, you can pretty much get a TL. Go to Volvo, give it a try. I mean if you don't need all those options, then obviously that's gonna be ok.

Hondarulez
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2008 13:27
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By the way, you do know that the S40 is based on Mazda3/Ford Focus right? At least the TSX is based on the Accord, not Civic.
enemy
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2008 14:48
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Bepperb wrote:
I just think that if they had put the J30 from the last gen Accord, then required premium that's 250hp and 215 ftlbs right there. Some new cams to move the powerband up, or leave it as is. And the last gen Accord V6 and TSX had the same mileage, so there wouldn't be a huge penalty. That would have had me in the showrooms.

Also, keep in mind for 28,500 msrp, one can have the Volvo S40 with a turbo making 225hp and 236ftlbs.



I am pretty sure Honda has communicated that the J30 and and K23 Turbo won't fit. Besides, the TSX probably doesn't need anymore weight up front. I think the current specs are fine given the price and vehicle content. More power in the form of a higher revving engine would be nice for a Type-S. People buy Acuras for the value, not to go racing with other entry level luxury cars.

Hondarulez
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Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2008 23:18
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hmm, if I recall correctly, Jeff said that he talked with some Honda folks during the Auto Show and they said that the K23T wouldn't fit, but a V6 will. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
chuchurocket
Profile for chuchurocket
Re: Sensible [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-30-2008 03:54
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is250 323 and c230 are all small(ish) RWD cars, and behind the wheel that's what distinguish them form the masses of FWD's out there. whether that person test driving the car will prefer RWD or FWD is up to him, but the difference can be felt.

 
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