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  TOV Articles > TOV Dyno Test: 2009 Acura TSX 6MT > > Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks.

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siegen
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Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2008 19:25
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Looking at this graph, the low and mid-range improvements are impressive, however at the same time I am wondering. The torque dropoff at 5700rpms~ is considerable. Compare the torque that is being made at 4400rpms~ with torque being made at 6300rpms~ between each engine. The new engine drops considerably while the old engine doesn't (ignoring the vtec drop that is).

What if Honda were to use more aggressive high-rpm cam profiles, and move vtec engagement up a little further? This would improve the overall flatness of the powerband and increase high-rpm performance with only a small sacrifice during the dip prior to vtec crossover (as seen in the old model). This would have also increased considerably the all-important peak horsepower number by 10-20hp, and silenced many critics.

However, I do see the advantage of the new engine for gear splits. Shifting in the old model would have landed you well below vtec crossover, while the new model will land you in the thick of the powerband. Still, I think Honda could have flattened it out some. What do the experienced TOV tuners think? Are performance cams in order?

Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-16-2008 21:40
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I agree, like Jeff said, it seems like Honda is doing that on purpose, for marketing reasons perhaps as this might be the base engine.

Anyways, the increase in torque is quite decent given the same displacement. I guess we can't say Honda/Acura didn't "advance" now.

xcess
Profile for xcess
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 01:16
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i have no time to give credit and praise for a lousy 13ft lbs of torque increase.
Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 01:56
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xcess wrote:
i have no time to give credit and praise for a lousy 13ft lbs of torque increase.


As well as better fuel economy, emissions level, refinement, NVH, etc.

RyanDL
Profile for RyanDL
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 09:19
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xcess wrote:
i have no time to give credit and praise for a lousy 13ft lbs of torque increase.

Considering the previous TSX had plenty of torque and this is a nearly 10% increase, it's pretty significant. But, to each his own...

Ryan

wrussi
Profile for wrussi
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 10:16
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while honda did improve the power before vtec. more tq its still not impressing considering all the gains will be eaten up by the added weight of the car.

here are my numbers on my bone stock tsx with 12k miles:

first pull was a third gear pull second was a 4th



Last edited by JeffX on 04-17-2008 10:48
wrussi
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Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 10:17
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Bepperb
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Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 10:41
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The previous TSX didn't have plenty of torque. It had as much as a four banger accord, or camry. That's not competitive with other cars in this segment.

While this gain is significant, it's completely eaten up by the weight gain. So an underpowered car stays the same while the competition improves. In fact, the only strong suit of this car, handling, won't benifit from the weight gain either.

DrS2k
Profile for DrS2k
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 11:26
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No Biggie .... just means you can't have any passengers :) ... besides, if twisties performance and fast drag strip times is what you're after, this probably is not your vehicle. However, looks like this car will shine in everyday drivability. Perhaps with the diesel engine introduction, we'll have a high mpg car as well.
zapata
Profile for zapata
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 11:32
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xcess wrote:
i have no time to give credit and praise for a lousy 13ft lbs of torque increase.



but you have time to criticize it :) lol....thanks for wasting your time.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 12:10
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Looking solely at the engine, this is a substantial improvement. Yes, the new car is heavier, but the motor definitely has moved the game on from the last gen motor. _If_ Honda had kept weight down, the new car would be faster in every situation. At least the engine department at HOnda is still doing its job.

SC

Bepperb wrote:
The previous TSX didn't have plenty of torque. It had as much as a four banger accord, or camry. That's not competitive with other cars in this segment.

While this gain is significant, it's completely eaten up by the weight gain. So an underpowered car stays the same while the competition improves. In fact, the only strong suit of this car, handling, won't benifit from the weight gain either.



Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 13:19
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Bepperb wrote:
The previous TSX didn't have plenty of torque. It had as much as a four banger accord, or camry. That's not competitive with other cars in this segment.

While this gain is significant, it's completely eaten up by the weight gain. So an underpowered car stays the same while the competition improves. In fact, the only strong suit of this car, handling, won't benifit from the weight gain either.



The previous gen already made 85% torque at 2000rpm. The new one gains more torque throughout. The peak torque increased by 12-13lbft at the wheels, or 8-9% improvement. Weight gained by 150lbs, or a 4-5% increase. So, technically, it's not really "completely eaten up" by the weight gain. The 2004 190-195hp (yes, 190-195hp because it's measured under the old system) was able to post a 90mph trap speed, which is the same as the 204hp IS250. The 2006-2008 TSX had 10 more hp and thus a bit faster. The new TSX lost 1-2whp, but gained 12-13wtq, it would be more or less as fast as the 06-08 model.

GTR weighs close to 4000lbs, how does it handle?

hndajnkie1
Profile for hndajnkie1
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 17:40
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Are you serious?!?
Tell me you are not comparing a gas mileage TSX to a GT-R?
A 28,000 car versus a 70,000 supercar that no one is buying.....hmmmm
You guys are amazing! Give Acura time, rome was not built in a day! I think Honda realized (allbeit) too late that the line was scary stagnant.....This is why the meetings with dealer GM's and Owners were so hush mouthed.

fortan
Profile for fortan
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-17-2008 19:08
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It's a better engine.

Not the screamer, or the A-Vtec people were hoping for(yet) but that torque curve is better across the board and the power curve is better everywhere except up a the really top.

If what he's saying in the video about the break-in is true, it could be that this engine actually is better across the board than the 06-08 one it replaces at 10 or 20k miles.

Seeing that flat torque curb makes me want to order the Hondata flash for my 04 TSX right now. I think I will.

Also: bragging rights vs actual performance: as pointed out here under the new SAE rules my 04 an 05 TSX would probably be closer to 190HP than 200HP, so from my perspective this engine is +10 and +10-15 in the HP and torque and category over how this car debuted.

My only minor beef is over the VTEC surge, which probaly they should have been saved a little of for marketing percepton reasons and the engine note which from the video is more rumble-like than the turbine whine/valvetrain note of the 05 to my ear. Different kind of NVH to my ear rather than a "reduction"




Hondarulez
Profile for Hondarulez
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-18-2008 00:13
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hndajnkie wrote:
Are you serious?!?
Tell me you are not comparing a gas mileage TSX to a GT-R?
A 28,000 car versus a 70,000 supercar that no one is buying.....hmmmm
You guys are amazing! Give Acura time, rome was not built in a day! I think Honda realized (allbeit) too late that the line was scary stagnant.....This is why the meetings with dealer GM's and Owners were so hush mouthed.



lol well I was just saying that increasing weight doesnt' mean handling would become worse. I mean usually that's the case, but I was just giving an example where that might not be true!

2K5TSX
Profile for 2K5TSX
Re: Honda could have improved 6k-7k performance me'thinks. [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2008 10:21
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fortan wrote:
It's a better engine.

Not the screamer, or the A-Vtec people were hoping for(yet) but that torque curve is better across the board and the power curve is better everywhere except up a the really top.

If what he's saying in the video about the break-in is true, it could be that this engine actually is better across the board than the 06-08 one it replaces at 10 or 20k miles.

Seeing that flat torque curb makes me want to order the Hondata flash for my 04 TSX right now. I think I will.

Also: bragging rights vs actual performance: as pointed out here under the new SAE rules my 04 an 05 TSX would probably be closer to 190HP than 200HP, so from my perspective this engine is +10 and +10-15 in the HP and torque and category over how this car debuted.

My only minor beef is over the VTEC surge, which probaly they should have been saved a little of for marketing percepton reasons and the engine note which from the video is more rumble-like than the turbine whine/valvetrain note of the 05 to my ear. Different kind of NVH to my ear rather than a "reduction"






On the dyno the 2006 TSX gained approx 9-10hp so the 2004/2005 TSX would have no less than 195hp.... especially since the 2006+ Civic Si was rated at 200hp but dipped to 197 after conversion.


 
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