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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps

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A c e
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Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2008 13:34
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1 3 Nick Heidfeld BMW 55 16:33:59 209.244 1:35.366
2 1 Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 37 16:03:37 209.158 1:35.405
3 22 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 53 16:30:43 209.033 1:35.462
4 16 Jenson Button Honda 56 16:36:11 208.481 1:35.715
5 2 Felipe Massa Ferrari 15 15:27:45 208.048 1:35.914
6 4 Robert Kubica BMW 39 16:07:14 208.033 1:35.921
7 23 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 19 15:34:36 208.031 1:35.922
8 11 Jarno Trulli Toyota 53 16:30:41 207.715 1:36.068
9 9 David Coulthard Red Bull-Renault 55 16:34:25 207.417 1:36.206
10 5 Fernando Alonso Renault 40 16:09:29 207.240 1:36.288
11 17 Rubens Barrichello Honda 55 16:35:19 206.372 1:36.693
12 10 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 53 16:31:02 206.366 1:36.696
13 7 Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 55 16:35:28 206.182 1:36.782
14 15 Sebastian Vettel STR-Ferrari 37 16:05:09 205.995 1:36.870
15 6 Nelsinho Piquet Renault 52 16:29:48 205.812 1:36.956
16 21 Giancarlo Fisichella Force India-Ferrari 52 16:30:24 205.800 1:36.962
17 8 Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 19 15:35:38 204.222 1:37.711
18 19 Anthony Davidson Super Aguri-Honda 55 16:36:16 203.265 1:38.171
19 18 Takuma Sato Super Aguri-Honda 53 16:33:14 202.578 1:38.504

20 20 Adrian Sutil Force India-Ferrari 3 15:08:43 198.891 1:40.330

Wohooo, at least fourth fastest time proves that this Honda have a lot of potential. :-) So, I'm pretty confident that like Ross said Honda will make bigger step with next aero package and with suspension components.

TJ
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Re: Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2008 14:50
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Looking Good, as long as we keep moving foward we are on the right track to the promise land "World Champion" Keep up the good work Ross
Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2008 21:51
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A c e wrote:

4 16 Jenson Button Honda 56 16:36:11 208.481 1:35.715

8 11 Jarno Trulli Toyota 53 16:30:41 207.715 1:36.068


I'm more interested on these lap times. I didn't watch the race, just saw the final result. Trulli managed to snag 4th place while having the 8th fastest lap, while Button only managed 10th place. Does fastest lap contribute to anything? Does Button shows inconsistency or there is something wrong with the race? Perhaps there is an accident that halted the race, those yellow flags can make or break a race.

musicmanvin
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Re: Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2008 22:59
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i think button was inconsistent, i was watching his times on live timing

his times did not gradually drop like they should due to fuel being burned.. not until a few laps before the pits did i see his times suddenly dramatically drop by over .7 seconds...

floundericiousMI
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Re: Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2008 01:52
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musicmanvin wrote:
i think button was inconsistent, i was watching his times on live timing

his times did not gradually drop like they should due to fuel being burned.. not until a few laps before the pits did i see his times suddenly dramatically drop by over .7 seconds...



I was watching this, also...several drivers were struggling with tyre graining. If they were on the ragged edge lap after lap, the tyres might very well have slid back and forth from good to blistering to good from lap to lap.

musicmanvin
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Re: Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2008 11:07
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well that could explain things, if the tires were graining in that odd-ish way, is that why they were using harder compounds than normal?
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2008 11:49
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Yeah the Speed crew mentioned that for the first couple of laps after the tires are warmed up, there's lots of tire graining and it doesn't subside until a few laps afterwards. This plagued Lewis Hamilton for a couple of laps too
JeffX
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pit strategy Re: Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2008 20:08
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musicmanvin wrote:
well that could explain things, if the tires were graining in that odd-ish way, is that why they were using harder compounds than normal?


every time I watch a race, it seems my instincts are at complete odds with our pit strategy. I don't understand why if we're going to run on a 2-stopper strategy, why the hell we run so long on the first stint - I mean just stay out for a few more laps and you could make it a one-stopper. But instead, we waste half of the race heavy on fuel, stuck behind rolling blockades, possibly get caught out by safety cars, and still make two stops. It seems like the worst possible compromise - we can't clear Q2, we're heavy on fuel forever, we always seem to get caught up in slow traffic, and then it seems like when it's finally time to come in, it's just a bad time somehow or another. I'd rather go for a shorter first stint, maybe get a bit more fuel for the middle stint, and then use the fuel padding to time the last stop optimally and then go balls out.

WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-24-2008 22:53
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In this particular race, I believe its a calculated risk, which didn't pay off. It has been raining every single day here. And when it rains, it really pours. And rain was forecasted for the weekend. So they were taking the hit of a heavier car for the sake of a more flexible pit-stop window. During the race, black clouds covered the pits area (though not the part of the track I was sitting at) and thunder was rolling all through the race after around 10 laps. So IF it had rained, Honda would've been amongst the few cars which would have been able to capitalize on it whilst the front runners would all have to go for 1 extra pit-stop for wet or intermediates. As it was, it just refused to rain. It rained, HEAVILY, during the night though.

Well, I believe sometime soon, luck will have to go our way. Better to have it when our car is more competitive than here at Sepang where the most we would have netted would have been a point or two. But in my viewpoint, it was a gamble worth taking, as expectations at this point is so low, so even if things didn't work out and we finish as expected (which we did), it was still considered 'good news'.

hondaracer
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Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2008 12:04
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Jeff wrote:
musicmanvin wrote:
well that could explain things, if the tires were graining in that odd-ish way, is that why they were using harder compounds than normal?


every time I watch a race, it seems my instincts are at complete odds with our pit strategy. I don't understand why if we're going to run on a 2-stopper strategy, why the hell we run so long on the first stint - I mean just stay out for a few more laps and you could make it a one-stopper. But instead, we waste half of the race heavy on fuel, stuck behind rolling blockades, possibly get caught out by safety cars, and still make two stops. It seems like the worst possible compromise - we can't clear Q2, we're heavy on fuel forever, we always seem to get caught up in slow traffic, and then it seems like when it's finally time to come in, it's just a bad time somehow or another. I'd rather go for a shorter first stint, maybe get a bit more fuel for the middle stint, and then use the fuel padding to time the last stop optimally and then go balls out.



Seriously, why not qualify on 10 laps or so worth of fuel, get well into Q3, see how the race develops during the first few laps, then devise the real strategy based on traffic. Seems to me anything could help at this point...

But what do I know?

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2008 12:32
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hondaracer wrote:
Jeff wrote:
musicmanvin wrote:
well that could explain things, if the tires were graining in that odd-ish way, is that why they were using harder compounds than normal?


every time I watch a race, it seems my instincts are at complete odds with our pit strategy. I don't understand why if we're going to run on a 2-stopper strategy, why the hell we run so long on the first stint - I mean just stay out for a few more laps and you could make it a one-stopper. But instead, we waste half of the race heavy on fuel, stuck behind rolling blockades, possibly get caught out by safety cars, and still make two stops. It seems like the worst possible compromise - we can't clear Q2, we're heavy on fuel forever, we always seem to get caught up in slow traffic, and then it seems like when it's finally time to come in, it's just a bad time somehow or another. I'd rather go for a shorter first stint, maybe get a bit more fuel for the middle stint, and then use the fuel padding to time the last stop optimally and then go balls out.



Seriously, why not qualify on 10 laps or so worth of fuel, get well into Q3, see how the race develops during the first few laps, then devise the real strategy based on traffic. Seems to me anything could help at this point...

But what do I know?


I don't get your point... All teams are on as little fuel as they can in Q1 and Q2, if Honda's don't get into Q3 is not because they carry too much fuel, it's because they are slow.

That said, to answer Jeff, to me the point is that you need to be very fast and/or with a clear track in front to make the most of a short first stint (or even a 3-stop strategy). For teams in the middle pack, overtaking is almost impossible during races, and in the end those emerging on top after the 1st round of pitstops are those that managed to stay longer, because they can get those extra fast-laps while their competitors are on heavy loads.

Back to Malaisia, Jenson had less fuel than Coulthard (not much less but still), but he was still unable to put the pressure on him. If he had been even lighter, I don't think it would have helped much, Hamilton spent a race behind Webber and he had a McLaren to overtake him. If he had have more fuel than David he could have got pass him after the pit-stops though.

Moreover, those pitting earlier are those that get the worse traffic conditions, unless they had a clear track in front of them to pull away since the beginning (something that never happens in the mid-pack).

Finally, about not putting a bit more and switching to a 1-stop strategy, I think it's about not dropping too far away, about time-slots between cars. Pitstop time is proportional to loaded fuel, and one needs about 15sec to fill the tank for half a race distance. That's too much while racing, and one risks getting stuck behind very slow traffic with a car heavy as hell and tires in horrible average conditions. You'll notice at the same time that virtually anyone that has to change a nose-cone switches to 1-stop (they've already lose that time anyway). At the start though, fueling time is for free if you don't get into Q3, and those are precious seconds that you are wining vs. other cars.

hondaracer
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Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2008 12:37
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Jesus, have a fit about it.

You're right, I was totally confused in thinking fuel strategies had any impact on Q3. Duh on my part.

Carry on.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2008 12:45
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hondaracer wrote:
Jesus, have a fit about it.

You're right, I was totally confused in thinking fuel strategies had any impact on Q3. Duh on my part.

Carry on.


I'm not sure I understand your English, but it feels like if I seemed angry or something at you.

If so, I apologize in advance, nothing further from my intentions... I was just saying so much stuff and answering two different posts, that I used bold style to made it easier to separate the main ideas for those reading.

hondaracer
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Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2008 13:00
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No problem, sorry I got a little snippy....
JeffX
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Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2008 14:26
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danielgr wrote:
hondaracer wrote:
Jeff wrote:
musicmanvin wrote:
well that could explain things, if the tires were graining in that odd-ish way, is that why they were using harder compounds than normal?


every time I watch a race, it seems my instincts are at complete odds with our pit strategy. I don't understand why if we're going to run on a 2-stopper strategy, why the hell we run so long on the first stint - I mean just stay out for a few more laps and you could make it a one-stopper. But instead, we waste half of the race heavy on fuel, stuck behind rolling blockades, possibly get caught out by safety cars, and still make two stops. It seems like the worst possible compromise - we can't clear Q2, we're heavy on fuel forever, we always seem to get caught up in slow traffic, and then it seems like when it's finally time to come in, it's just a bad time somehow or another. I'd rather go for a shorter first stint, maybe get a bit more fuel for the middle stint, and then use the fuel padding to time the last stop optimally and then go balls out.



Seriously, why not qualify on 10 laps or so worth of fuel, get well into Q3, see how the race develops during the first few laps, then devise the real strategy based on traffic. Seems to me anything could help at this point...

But what do I know?


I don't get your point... All teams are on as little fuel as they can in Q1 and Q2, if Honda's don't get into Q3 is not because they carry too much fuel, it's because they are slow.




yeah, after re-reading that I guess it sounded like I was implying we were also running heavy in Q2 - I am aware that the race fuel load is based upon what is run in Q3.

At this point I'm not even sure why I put that confusing item in there - I guess I was emphasizing that since we're starting out somewhere behind P10, that going heavy for the first stint doesn't seem to make sense unless we're contemplating a 1-stopper. I would rather be light enough that we can overtake some of the guys who are slower and/or heavier and then hope to put enough distance on them to survive the first pit cycle. At least not be stuck behind them for 26 laps or whatever.

But it's just a passing observation from somebody who doesn't have all the data :^)


Neilap
Profile for Neilap
Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2008 21:12
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I think with the change in regs next year we will see more of your ideas put into practice but only if the changes have made passing easier. I am sure LH in free air is at least .5 sec faster than MW but aero limitations ruin the ability to pass.
floundericiousMI
Profile for floundericiousMI
Re: pit strategy Fastest Laps    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-25-2008 22:49
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Jeff wrote:

yeah, after re-reading that I guess it sounded like I was implying we were also running heavy in Q2 - I am aware that the race fuel load is based upon what is run in Q3.

At this point I'm not even sure why I put that confusing item in there - I guess I was emphasizing that since we're starting out somewhere behind P10, that going heavy for the first stint doesn't seem to make sense unless we're contemplating a 1-stopper. I would rather be light enough that we can overtake some of the guys who are slower and/or heavier and then hope to put enough distance on them to survive the first pit cycle. At least not be stuck behind them for 26 laps or whatever.

But it's just a passing observation from somebody who doesn't have all the data :^)




I think what's not been said here...to address the 1 stop question...is that the regulations REQUIRE every team to run at least one stint on both sets of tires.

Typically, teams find that only one tire type works well around the track they're at for the long race stints. This means they craft the setup of the car to work best with that one good tire type. They then try to meld a strategy around it that allows them to minimize time on the crappy tire and get the most out of their preferred tires with the right amounts of fuel.

Remember, this is what Super Aguri did at Canada last year to get Takuma in position to make the move on Alonso. They had just changed to their crappy tire when the safety car was deployed, so they pulled Takuma in and immediately swapped him back onto the good tire...and then he was on the good tire with a balanced car and low fuel. Instant winner and a great passing maneuver!


 
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