A c e
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Pos Rider Team Time Laps
1. Casey Stoner Ducati Marlboro Team 1:55.870 19
2. Jorge Lorenzo Fiat Yamaha Team 1:55.924 + 0.054 22
3. Andrea Dovizioso JiR Team Scot MotoGP 1:56.221 + 0.351 15
4. Valentino Rossi Fiat Yamaha Team 1:56.269 + 0.399 22
5. Dani Pedrosa Repsol Honda Team 1:56.478 + 0.608 23
6. Randy De Puniet LCR Honda MotoGP 1:56.525 + 0.655 22
7. Colin Edwards Tech 3 Yamaha 1:56.574 + 0.704 22
8. James Toseland Tech 3 Yamaha 1:56.950 + 1.080 21
9. Nicky Hayden Repsol Honda Team 1:57.069 + 1.199 22
10. John Hopkins Kawasaki Racing Team 1:57.085 + 1.215 20
11. Marco Melandri Ducati Marlboro Team 1:57.137 + 1.267 21
12. Loris Capirossi Rizla Suzuki MotoGP 1:57.287 + 1.417 21
13. Alex De Angelis San Carlo Honda Gresini 1:57.561 + 1.691 22
14. Shinya Nakano San Carlo Honda Gresini 1:57.588 + 1.718 23
15. Chris Vermeulen Rizla Suzuki MotoGP 1:57.639 + 1.769 20
16. Toni Elias Alice Team 1:58.130 + 2.260 17
17. Anthony West Kawasaki Racing Team 1:58.912 + 3.042 21
18. Sylvain Guintoli Alice Team 1:59.006 + 3.136 16
After first practice. Did Dani run an 07 bike? Don't know but doesn't seem to be happy start for works Repsol Honda.
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floundericiousMI
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65536
Team Rizla Suzuki are believed to be experimenting with a development version of its 2007 bike in free practice in Qatar as the team continue to search for a competitive aerodynamic solution for their new '08-spec GSV-R.
Like Repsol Honda, the team are running both chassis back-to-back in an attempt to see where they can find new prototype is lacking in top-end speed.
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JMU R1
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Yeah for some reason the 2008 bike has not been working well at all at Qatar. The 08 bike has been doing okay for the most part but at Qatar neither Hayden or Pedrosa could post times much higher than the mid-teens. Hopefully the problems are only because of the cool temperatures at night in Qatar.
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brunobati
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Can someone tell me WTF is happening at Honda motorsports?
Now they are struggling in moto gp too?? incredible.
Even in super gt, it seems they are slower than nissans, and toyotas also are not looking bad at all this year.
Honda need to do something to stop this torture. It is too painfull to watch them struggle in their most important championships.
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CarPhreakD
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You can't expect Honda to win every single year. As long as they keep racing and trying to find success, I'm happy.
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CarPhreakD
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brunobati wrote:
Even in super gt, it seems they are slower than nissans, and toyotas also are not looking bad at all this year.
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The first official testing session was very strange. The top time in the first test session was about a second off the pace from last year's times. There is only one Nissan in the top, followed by a Lexus, and then ALL FIVE NSXs, then another Nissan.
On day 2 the times were equally eratic. Two Nissans in the top, followed by the REAL NSX (which is usually the slowest of the 5), a Lexus, and then three NSXs, two more GT-R's, then the ARTA NSX. The top 5 positions are separated by less than 2/10th of a second.
I wouldn't say that Honda is necessarily slower than the Nissans... not at all. In fact, since the times are so erratic and off the pace compared to last years, it's hard to determine how everyone is running to begin with.
HRC hasn't been doing well since Nicky Hayden won the championship. The combination of Ducati and Stoner is really something to behold- luckily, it just seems to be a specific combination of Stoner and Ducati, as the other Ducati riders are more or less struggling.
In this practice session, I think it has more or less to do with the tire temperatures and cross winds (being a night race and all)
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brunobati
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Their knowledge and experience in moto gp is enourmous! So it was a shock to me that they were unable to produce a bike better than last year's. Of course I'm not expecting them to win every year. But if you look at super gt... how many titles Honda have (since they entered the series) compared to Nissan and toyota?
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A c e
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Dude, this became very sick. Honda didn't do well since Rossi leave, did you heard what they've said. 7 wins, only 7 wins from Honda works riders after Rossi stoped riding for Honda.
And this thing with the engine bacame a very much pathetic for a Honda... painfull to watch. I saw somewhere, someone said that 07 guys didn't build this bike... WTF is going On? Honda can't make pneumatic valve engine that is competetive, that is a very much apsurd.
Srry abt grammar.
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JMU R1
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Yeah the lack of performance from the pneumatic valve engine is a bit puzzling considering all of the experience the Formula 1 team has with the technology. Really, one would have thought that Honda would've showed up with a pneumatic valve engine and rode off into the sunset.
I think that part of the problem is that pneumatic valves for the motorcycle application is significantly different than it is for the Formula 1 application. I think Aprilia ran into this a few years back when they tried to run a pneumatic valve engine designed by Cosworth.
Honestly though Honda just underestimated the competition before the 2007 season and its still hurting them now. I don't think they're in terrible shape, but its going to be difficult to topple Stoner to say the least.
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brunobati
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Exactly! that's why I'm saying "wtf is going on?", because they have what it takes to be constantly at the top but they seem to be underestimating the competition thinking they are the best so the others cant match them. They need to face every season like it going to be the hardest season of all.
I really hope they can improove the bike a lot in a few races so that Pedrosa can fight Stoner to try to get the title. Sorry but I don't think Hayden will do it. Pedrosa is clearly faster. Even the Yamahas seem to be ahead at this point, so they really must be desperate right now. I hope they learn once for all that they must never underestimate the other teams.
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brunobati
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practice 2
1. Casey Stoner Ducati 1:55.442
2. Jorge Lorenzo Yamaha 1:55.453 + 0.011
3. James Toseland Yamaha 1:55.812 + 0.370
4. Colin Edwards Yamaha 1:55.942 + 0.500
5. Andrea Dovizioso Honda 1:55.963 + 0.521
6. Alex de Angelis Honda 1:56.120 + 0.678
7. Randy de Puniet Honda 1:56.234 + 0.792
8. Chris Vermeulen Suzuki 1:56.279 + 0.837
9. Valentino Rossi Yamaha 1:56.395 + 0.953
10. Loris Capirossi Suzuki 1:56.922 + 1.480
11. Daniel Pedrosa Honda 1:56.962 + 1.520
12. Shinya Nakano Honda 1:57.011 + 1.569
13. Nicky Hayden Honda 1:57.045 + 1.603
14. Marco Melandri Ducati 1:57.091 + 1.649
15. Toni Elias Ducati 1:57.311 + 1.869
16. John Hopkins Kawasaki 1:57.416 + 1.974
17. Anthony West Kawasaki 1:57.934 + 2.492
18. Sylvain Guintoli Ducati 1:58.500 + 3.058
thats right... the yamahas have the pace too... and the hondas seem to be struggling to say the least.
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danielgr
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JMU R1 wrote:
Yeah for some reason the 2008 bike has not been working well at all at Qatar. The 08 bike has been doing okay for the most part but at Qatar neither Hayden or Pedrosa could post times much higher than the mid-teens. Hopefully the problems are only because of the cool temperatures at night in Qatar.
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Pedrosa has missed the whole pre-season and is still recovering from his accident. That's Honda's main problem, because he is Honda's main rider. For the neumatic engine alone he was quoted to like it better than the old, but then he crashed, and Nicky never liked it, so for sure that didn't help.
Today he crashed in FP2 due to a stupid move from Rossi (easing off the throttle at a corner's exit in the middle of the racing line) and that ruined again some of the practice time he had.
As we/he said a lot during pre-season, Nicky's work isn't really profitable for Pedrosa, so for him the whole preseason is almost lost.
I certainly hope that there is something special about Quatar, because Dani aside, it's not normal that the fastest Honda rider is a rookie in a satellite team. It is encouraging to have Dovi up there though, I hope that he will keep up working hard and that Honda will give him what he deserves despite being a rookie.
Anyway, there is still a lot to come tomorrow, so let's keep our fingers crossed. Still amazed by Stoner's job though, even more so that now Melandri rides the same bike and Rossi the same tires.
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JMU R1
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danielgr wrote:
Pedrosa has missed the whole pre-season and is still recovering from his accident. That's Honda's main problem, because he is Honda's main rider. For the neumatic engine alone he was quoted to like it better than the old, but then he crashed, and Nicky never liked it, so for sure that didn't help. |
Nicky said he liked the pneumatic engine as well, just that there were holes in the powerband. HRC decided that the engine needed more work, not Nicky.
Nicky also said that the 08 chassis worked better with the pneumatic valve engine. I think maybe part of the problem is that the 08 chassis was designed for the air-valved engine so putting the spring engine back in there took them a step backwards.
I hope I can somehow get a chance to ask one of the HRC folks some questions about the situation. On the surface of it Honda should have the most powerful engine on the grid since they have the most experience with pneumatic valves by a wide margin. But as I said, the motorcycle application presents different challenges than Formula 1. I remember reading that traction control has to be much more refined for the motorcycle application because of the extremely small contact patch and the power to weight ratio involved. Also with motorcycles a more broad, usable powerband is much more important than with F1 cars for the same reasons.
| As we/he said a lot during pre-season, Nicky's work isn't really profitable for Pedrosa, so for him the whole preseason is almost lost. |
Probably. That crash was really costly from a development and fitness standpoint for Dani. Hopefully this won't allow Stoner to get away with too many wins to start the season.
Anyway, there is still a lot to come tomorrow, so let's keep our fingers crossed. Still amazed by Stoner's job though, even more so that now Melandri rides the same bike and Rossi the same tires.
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I'm kind of glad that Melandri is struggling and that Rossi hasn't been terribly fast with the Bridgestones. It just helps drive the point home that Stoner is the one making the difference, not some technical advantage. Of course the next excuse is going to be that he trusts the traction control more than the others and that's why he's fast. Or maybe that Ducati has built the bike around his style.
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JMU R1
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Yeah after watching the crash with Pedrosa and Rossi that was definitely Rossi's fault. It seems like Rossi let off a bit on corner exit, he didn't even track all the way out. I think he was going to turn around to check for other riders as he let off but he messed up and let off before he turned around, not unlike what Kurtis Roberts did to Marco Melandri at Laguna Seca last year.
Rotten luck.
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A c e
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OR there is only one explanation for Honda's reason for puting off penumatic valve engine aside, and the one I would like to be true one. Maybe engine is powerfull but they insist that engine must be more powerfull then those that Ducati and Yamaha have. Destroy first few races and then later in season come with dominant engine and demolish everyone. I would like that to be scenario. :-D
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Neilap
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Pos Rider Make Time
1. Jorge Lorenzo Yamaha 1:53.927
2. James Toseland Yamaha 1:54.182 + 0.255
3. Colin Edwards Yamaha 1:54.499 + 0.572
4. Casey Stoner Ducati 1:54.733 + 0.806
5. Randy de Puniet Honda 1:54.818 + 0.891
6. Nicky Hayden Honda 1:54.880 + 0.953
7. Valentino Rossi Yamaha 1:55.133 + 1.206
8. Daniel Pedrosa Honda 1:55.170 + 1.243
9. Andrea Dovizioso Honda 1:55.185 + 1.258
10. John Hopkins Kawasaki 1:55.263 + 1.336
11. Chris Vermeulen Suzuki 1:55.540 + 1.613
12. Alex de Angelis Honda 1:55.692 + 1.765
13. Loris Capirossi Suzuki 1:56.070 + 2.143
14. Toni Elias Ducati 1:56.251 + 2.324
15. Shinya Nakano Honda 1:56.434 + 2.507
16. Marco Melandri Ducati 1:56.730 + 2.803
17. Sylvain Guintoli Ducati 1:57.198 + 3.271
18. Anthony West Kawasaki 1:57.445 + 3.518
...actually about what I expected for Honda but Yamaha looks really strong in qualifying at least. Again its the satellite team and a new rider that seems to be more on the pace. I hope Dovi gets at least a podium, he deserves it thought it seems unlikely.
As for the WTF statements, we need to realize that this is racing. Some of us are new to it so it may seem that Honda is failing at everything. Honda won the SuperGT series last year and this year are running with what some suspect is 100kilos of ballast on a car that is already the heaviest with the smallest motor. Money, experience, talent and luck all have to be in place just to be able to compete in racing and to win it takes even more. Honda had its days of domination in each sport and they also have slumps. It will always be that way. We have to understand competition, its not easy nor straightforward. Enjoy the sport and relax, Honda will not always be struggling just as they will not always win.
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san-tokie
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Neilap wrote:
Honda won the SuperGT series last year and this year are running with what some suspect is 100kilos of ballast on a car that is already the heaviest with the smallest motor. Money, experience, talent and luck all have to be in place just to be able to compete in racing and to win it takes even more. Honda had its days of domination in each sport and they also have slumps. It will always be that way. We have to understand competition, its not easy nor straightforward. Enjoy the sport and relax, Honda will not always be struggling just as they will not always win.
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I wonder why the SuperGT NSXs are going from a V6 to a 4 cylinder this year after such a dominant 07 season. Also the ARTA team losing Daisuke Ito to Toyota is sure to piss off a lot of fans. Toyota's solution of making a crap machine, buy a better driver... sigh
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Neilap
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Honda
Freshman Izawa driving for ARTA. Speculations are on for Honda's new engine
Last year, Honda's NSX showed dominant speed from the pre-season and recorded over 50% in winning percentage scoring 5 wins out of 9 races. The story may change for this year owing to the performance adjustment that may be applied to the car before the season kick-off. The car is assumed to start the season 50 Kg heavier than last year. Based on the assumption, talks are going on that, to fulfill its requirement, Honda might had been running with over 100 Kg ballast at the test in Sepang, Malaysia. Despite the rumor, their NSX lapped the track with the time as almost good as their rivals.
The engine might be another element in the list of changes Honda will apply for this season. Honda implemented a new 4-liter engine to REAL RACING's NSX at the Round 8 Autopolis and finished the rest of the season with the engine last year. It is most likely that all NSX's of Honda teams will be loaded with the new engine this season.
from SuperGT.net
The cars are using a 4.0 motor.
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brunobati
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I would like someone clarified some things to me...
-Were the NSX's last year racing heavier than their rivals?
-Why the NSX's are assumed to start this season 50 Kg heavier than last year?
-This thing about the NSX being always heavier than their rivals is that because of the (Toyota/Nissan?) rules??
That 4-cilinder talk is rubbish, I don't know where you heard that but it is completely rubbish. That makes no sense at all, it would be their worst season. Honda will use as always a V6 engine, pheraps a 4.0 litter from the already amazing 3.5L as SuperGT.com are speculating.
As for Ito I hoppe ALL the Hondas finnish in front of him. I was one of the people who was pissed of when he switched from the team that gave him a title to join Toyota.
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Neilap
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Wong would be the best to answer these questions. However, the NSX being a super car has the advantage of better weight distribution and a smaller frontal area, among others. After winning in 02 (I think) the car received penalties to make the competition 'equal'. For many years Honda has come close but has not won for varying reasons. I remember a few years ago when Toyota switched to a v8 for the first time reading that the smaller 3.5 NSX motor had a smaller restrictor than the much larger v8 Toyota was running.
Honda has been hindered just because they brought better equipment to the show. Maybe now the rules have changed a little since Nissan and Toyota have changed their cars while the NSX remains.
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CarPhreakD
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brunobati wrote:
Their knowledge and experience in moto gp is enourmous! So it was a shock to me that they were unable to produce a bike better than last year's. Of course I'm not expecting them to win every year. But if you look at super gt... how many titles Honda have (since they entered the series) compared to Nissan and toyota?
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In SuperGT? In the early years of JGTC, many. Then regulations changed and they were basically forced to go twin-turbo; since then, not many. Now with their new 3.5 litre NA engine? The total dominance by Honda last year (and actually, the stunning catchup the year before) needn't be said. The competition is struggling to catch up, if anything, IMO
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CarPhreakD
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brunobati wrote:
I would like someone clarified some things to me...
-Were the NSX's last year racing heavier than their rivals?
-Why the NSX's are assumed to start this season 50 Kg heavier than last year?
-This thing about the NSX being always heavier than their rivals is that because of the (Toyota/Nissan?) rules??
That 4-cilinder talk is rubbish, I don't know where you heard that but it is completely rubbish. That makes no sense at all, it would be their worst season. Honda will use as always a V6 engine, pheraps a 4.0 litter from the already amazing 3.5L as SuperGT.com are speculating.
As for Ito I hoppe ALL the Hondas finnish in front of him. I was one of the people who was pissed of when he switched from the team that gave him a title to join Toyota.
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He said 4 LITRE engine, not 4 CYLINDER engine
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CarPhreakD
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While I cannot confirm that Honda's base NSXs were heavier than the competition's, I can say that the ARTA NSX, despite being saddled by the maximum amount of ballast, managed to finish in the top 3 in a couple of races, IIRC. That is quite a stunning result...
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Neilap
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warm up results...
MotoGP News - Mar 9th, 16:21 GMT
Lorenzo stays on top in the warm-up
By Michele Lostia
Fiat Yamaha's Jorge Lorenzo has shown his pole position was not just a flash in the pan by topping the times in the warm-up ahead of tonight's motorcycling Grand Prix of Qatar.
The reigning 250cc champion set the fastest time of the session (1:55.849) with just a couple of minutes remaining, and showed that he has the pace by setting two more laps under the one minute 56 seconds barrier.
The only other rider able to do that feat was Ducati Marlboro's Casey Stoner, who ended the session 12 thousandths of a second behind the Spaniard.
Valentino Rossi, on the other Fiat Yamaha, had to settle for the third fastest time of 1:56.000. Both Stoner and Rossi are fitted with Bridgestone tyres, while Lorenzo is on Michelins.
John Hopkins set the fourth fastest time with his Kawasaki, ahead of the Rizla Suzukis of Chris Vermeulen and Capirossi, the two separated by only 0.003 seconds, over half a second behind Lorenzo.
Tech 3 Yamaha's Colin Edwards, who will start the race from the third spot, set the seventh fastest time, ahead of Alex de Angelis's Honda Gresini, Dani Pedrosa's works Repsol Honda, and Randy de Puniet's LCR Honda rounding up the top ten.
The other works Honda, that of former champion Nicky Hayden, was down in 14th place, ahead of the Tech 3 Yamaha of James Toseland, who qualified second for the race.
Ducati Marlboro's Marco Melandri continued with his dismal weekend by setting the slowest time of the warm-up, 2.3 seconds behind Lorenzo.
autosport.com
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brunobati
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CarPhreakD wrote:
brunobati wrote:
I would like someone clarified some things to me...
-Were the NSX's last year racing heavier than their rivals?
-Why the NSX's are assumed to start this season 50 Kg heavier than last year?
-This thing about the NSX being always heavier than their rivals is that because of the (Toyota/Nissan?) rules??
That 4-cilinder talk is rubbish, I don't know where you heard that but it is completely rubbish. That makes no sense at all, it would be their worst season. Honda will use as always a V6 engine, pheraps a 4.0 litter from the already amazing 3.5L as SuperGT.com are speculating.
As for Ito I hoppe ALL the Hondas finnish in front of him. I was one of the people who was pissed of when he switched from the team that gave him a title to join Toyota.
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He said 4 LITRE engine, not 4 CYLINDER engine
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Read again the post by san-tokie. From where I'm sitting it says 4 CYLINDER.
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Neilap
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http://www.importtuner.com/features/0410it_race_track_acura_nsx/index.html This import tuner article illustrates how the rules were adjusted to keep competition 'fair' in the sport. It also shows that they could have been the reason Honda had such a long drought. This year Honda has suffered a similar fate after having the fastest car for two years.
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brunobati
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CarPhreakD wrote:
brunobati wrote:
Their knowledge and experience in moto gp is enourmous! So it was a shock to me that they were unable to produce a bike better than last year's. Of course I'm not expecting them to win every year. But if you look at super gt... how many titles Honda have (since they entered the series) compared to Nissan and toyota?
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In SuperGT? In the early years of JGTC, many. Then regulations changed and they were basically forced to go twin-turbo; since then, not many. Now with their new 3.5 litre NA engine? The total dominance by Honda last year (and actually, the stunning catchup the year before) needn't be said. The competition is struggling to catch up, if anything, IMO
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Many? source please.
In JGTC era they only won in 2000 with the great Ryo Michigami in his Mugen and in 2002 they won the teams title.
In SuperGT era they won only last year. But I reckon they should have won at least 3 more titles if it wasn't for bad luck. Lets hope they win again this season. TAKATA DOME must win this season to compensate last years (mechanical?) failures. Michigami well deserves it!
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brunobati
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Nice read IMO. Thats what I thought. Rules made by Toyota and Nissan adepts to penalise NSX.
Neilap, what you mean with "This year Honda has suffered a similar fate". You're saying that in 2008 JAF changed the rules AGAIN to penalise the NSX even more?!!
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Neilap
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Honda
Freshman Izawa driving for ARTA. Speculations are on for Honda's new engine
Last year, Honda's NSX showed dominant speed from the pre-season and recorded over 50% in winning percentage scoring 5 wins out of 9 races. The story may change for this year owing to the performance adjustment that may be applied to the car before the season kick-off. The car is assumed to start the season 50 Kg heavier than last year. Based on the assumption, talks are going on that, to fulfill its requirement, Honda might had been running with over 100 Kg ballast at the test in Sepang, Malaysia. Despite the rumor, their NSX lapped the track with the time as almost good as their rivals.
The engine might be another element in the list of changes Honda will apply for this season. Honda implemented a new 4-liter engine to REAL RACING's NSX at the Round 8 Autopolis and finished the rest of the season with the engine last year. It is most likely that all NSX's of Honda teams will be loaded with the new engine this season.
from supergt.net
Its assumed they will receive a 50kg penalty basically for winning.
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san-tokie
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My bad guys, made a typo. (still no edit button?)
The SuperGT NSX are V6 4 litre engines this year.
brunobati wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
brunobati wrote:
I would like someone clarified some things to me...
-Were the NSX's last year racing heavier than their rivals?
-Why the NSX's are assumed to start this season 50 Kg heavier than last year?
-This thing about the NSX being always heavier than their rivals is that because of the (Toyota/Nissan?) rules??
That 4-cilinder talk is rubbish, I don't know where you heard that but it is completely rubbish. That makes no sense at all, it would be their worst season. Honda will use as always a V6 engine, pheraps a 4.0 litter from the already amazing 3.5L as SuperGT.com are speculating.
As for Ito I hoppe ALL the Hondas finnish in front of him. I was one of the people who was pissed of when he switched from the team that gave him a title to join Toyota.
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He said 4 LITRE engine, not 4 CYLINDER engine
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Read again the post by san-tokie. From where I'm sitting it says 4 CYLINDER.
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