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  TOV News > Several more '09 Acura TSX, RL, and TL updates > > Re: Is ToV in full revolt?!

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TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 23:40
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I know all the sensible reasons why Acura doesn't need a V8 or RWD, but like many have stated before, LUXURY isn't about being sensible...

I have been on this site for quite awhile and I have never seen so many unhappy enthusiasts...

I hope the folks at Honda take the comments on this site seriously and don't just read for amusement.

I like to think that true Honda/Acura enthusiasts are like any good early-adopters, they help build a brands reputation. And while many here are ok with the status quo, I'm seeing more and more frustration from a very loyal group of consumers/fans.

JMU R1
Profile for JMU R1
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 00:06
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I have to say I agree. I don't know the details of the next TSX and TL for sure but I know the Acura lineup does not sufficiently stir my loins right now. I really have zero motivation to buy any of Acura's sedans right now and I'm as devout a fan of Honda as any.
gogzy
Profile for gogzy
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 00:28
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cant fight this feeling anymore......
AK
Profile for AK
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 01:02
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Well it's very simple.. if you don't like it.. leave.
Let the market decide Acura's fate.

The fact that they can't touch BMW and Lexus has blown them away speaks volumes.

Why would only the RL have cooled seats?

If the new TSX sucks, I'm gonna get an Is250 with cooled seats for $32500 OTD. (they are selling them at invoice).

IS250 V6, 6 speed automatic. 18 inch wheels in CA, Cooled seats!!!! Did I mention the keyless start and cooled seats?

Powered by Honda
Profile for Powered by Honda
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 01:07
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AK wrote:
Well it's very simple.. if you don't like it.. leave.
Let the market decide Acura's fate.

The fact that they can't touch BMW and Lexus has blown them away speaks volumes.

Why would only the RL have cooled seats?

If the new TSX sucks, I'm gonna get an Is250 with cooled seats for $32500 OTD. (they are selling them at invoice).

IS250 V6, 6 speed automatic. 18 inch wheels in CA, Cooled seats!!!! Did I mention the keyless start and cooled seats?



ROFL @ U

The market will decide.

The new TSX will break all Honda sales records.

You forgot ppl love the TSX for what it is!!!!! Why does it sell so well? Honda was shocked aswell when they saw how amazing the TSX sold.

TSX is a GREAT CAR!!! Anyone would be lucky to own one! There is def a market for it.

I rather have a new TSX vs a IS

Power Of Dreams
Profile for Power Of Dreams
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 01:34
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Preaching to the choir ain't gonna cut it, cowboy.

Powered by Honda wrote:
AK wrote:
Well it's very simple.. if you don't like it.. leave.
Let the market decide Acura's fate.

The fact that they can't touch BMW and Lexus has blown them away speaks volumes.

Why would only the RL have cooled seats?

If the new TSX sucks, I'm gonna get an Is250 with cooled seats for $32500 OTD. (they are selling them at invoice).

IS250 V6, 6 speed automatic. 18 inch wheels in CA, Cooled seats!!!! Did I mention the keyless start and cooled seats?



ROFL @ U

The market will decide.

The new TSX will break all Honda sales records.

You forgot ppl love the TSX for what it is!!!!! Why does it sell so well? Honda was shocked aswell when they saw how amazing the TSX sold.

TSX is a GREAT CAR!!! Anyone would be lucky to own one! There is def a market for it.

I rather have a new TSX vs a IS



computernerd
Profile for computernerd
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 02:57
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To answer the original question posed by the creator of this thread, I think TOV might be in full revolt, but I don't think the people who actually buy Honda's cars are.

To listen to all the talk on this site you wouldn't think that Honda just set another annual sales record. I fully expected (at least the base models of) the TSX and TL to be fairly similar to the previous models, why? Because they sold a lot of copies of those cars. The previous TSX far exceeded Honda's expections for annual sales, why would you abandon those consumers who actually bought the car to please a bunch of "enthusiasts" who are probably going to biatch regardless of what you do. Sure, you can add a "hot" version with SH-AWD and a turbocharged engine (and cooled seats with keyless entry????) to make the "enthusiasts" happy. But are you "enthusiasts" willing to pay $36,000 for a TSX? Honda has got to make money and the dollar ain't gettin' any stronger.

I remember all the belly aching from people who wanted HID's, memory seats, and other such things in the Accord and then when the sticker of the top level model topped $30,000 those same people started saying they weren't going to pay that much money for an Accord.

Same thing with the new Pilot, that car has been pilloried on this site, but am I missing something? or doesn't the new model look pretty much like the old one? Seems to me the new Pilot is designed to please the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the previous model instead of the tens of thousands of people who will buy CX-9s. Isn't that just good business?





Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 04:17
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Computernerd, check all that logic at the door.... we only allow passion here ;-)
TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 07:44
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Colin wrote:
Computernerd, check all that logic at the door.... we only allow passion here ;-)


Being sensible is fine, but only when it's not...

That's why Acura is in such a pickle, they SHOULDN'T have to abandon the TSX market, but oh, wait, is that a Tier one market? Maybe if you are an established maker with the right ingredients you can dabble in the entry level lux market, but it's not helping Acura's 'new' cause to be fighting with the big boys...

And again, as Honda/Acura enthusiasts we have an important job - to influence friends and family, I see less and less of that happening if Acura continues to bring a knife to a gun fight...it makes perfect business sense, go after the intended market instead of just saying you will by offering competent but less than ground-breaking products.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 08:36
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computernerd wrote:
To answer the original question posed by the creator of this thread, I think TOV might be in full revolt, but I don't think the people who actually buy Honda's cars are.

To listen to all the talk on this site you wouldn't think that Honda just set another annual sales record. I fully expected (at least the base models of) the TSX and TL to be fairly similar to the previous models, why? Because they sold a lot of copies of those cars. The previous TSX far exceeded Honda's expections for annual sales, why would you abandon those consumers who actually bought the car to please a bunch of "enthusiasts" who are probably going to biatch regardless of what you do. Sure, you can add a "hot" version with SH-AWD and a turbocharged engine (and cooled seats with keyless entry????) to make the "enthusiasts" happy. But are you "enthusiasts" willing to pay $36,000 for a TSX? Honda has got to make money and the dollar ain't gettin' any stronger.

I remember all the belly aching from people who wanted HID's, memory seats, and other such things in the Accord and then when the sticker of the top level model topped $30,000 those same people started saying they weren't going to pay that much money for an Accord.

Same thing with the new Pilot, that car has been pilloried on this site, but am I missing something? or doesn't the new model look pretty much like the old one? Seems to me the new Pilot is designed to please the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the previous model instead of the tens of thousands of people who will buy CX-9s. Isn't that just good business?







This is sooo true.

I think there are two real schools of criticism;

1. That the products are not 'strong' (ie convincing) enough for more enthusiastic buyers not to be tempted into a BMW or somesuch.

2. There are the older-school Honda enthusiasts, who cannot accept the monstrosities demanded by the current market. They will probably never be satisfied, unless Honda does something mind-blowing, which is hard.

3. There is a third school, who are too damn poor to be able to afford what's on offer, so will join the other two as the mood suits them, in a forn of non-purchse justification.

I'm No.2. BTW!

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 08:36
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computernerd wrote:
To answer the original question posed by the creator of this thread, I think TOV might be in full revolt, but I don't think the people who actually buy Honda's cars are.

To listen to all the talk on this site you wouldn't think that Honda just set another annual sales record. I fully expected (at least the base models of) the TSX and TL to be fairly similar to the previous models, why? Because they sold a lot of copies of those cars. The previous TSX far exceeded Honda's expections for annual sales, why would you abandon those consumers who actually bought the car to please a bunch of "enthusiasts" who are probably going to biatch regardless of what you do. Sure, you can add a "hot" version with SH-AWD and a turbocharged engine (and cooled seats with keyless entry????) to make the "enthusiasts" happy. But are you "enthusiasts" willing to pay $36,000 for a TSX? Honda has got to make money and the dollar ain't gettin' any stronger.

I remember all the belly aching from people who wanted HID's, memory seats, and other such things in the Accord and then when the sticker of the top level model topped $30,000 those same people started saying they weren't going to pay that much money for an Accord.

Same thing with the new Pilot, that car has been pilloried on this site, but am I missing something? or doesn't the new model look pretty much like the old one? Seems to me the new Pilot is designed to please the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the previous model instead of the tens of thousands of people who will buy CX-9s. Isn't that just good business?


Amen...
What I will never understand is why there is always so much people to criticize Honda for what they are not... obviating the part that you can define anything by either what it is or what it is not...
As a matter of fact, most of the critics I've read in this forum (growing lately) can be summarized as:
- I don't like this or that style.
- I want RWD and a bigger engine.
- I want all the possible gadgets available in other automakers.

It's funny, because, Honda globally has always:
- built FWD cars (apart from a couple of sports models)
- used small engines, never ever built a V8.
- offered a limited amount of options and less gadgets than most automakers
- showed very limited focus in pure design (I mean design as a mean of making a car beautiful above all).

There are many automakers in the world that have spent most of their existence building RWD-powerful-styled-customizable cars; if that's what you need, go for it, and leave Honda for those that don't.

To me, all this ranting is like spending your life hoping for your wife to change... Hey, if you don't like her, why don't you go with someone else? Do you really think she deserves you to complain about how she is for decades ? Specially because she may be a beautiful person whose qualities many others would appreciate. So let her be, and find yourself one you like.

I mean, you can always be critic with some stuff, but there is a limit with everything... It's not about being enthusiast or not... It's like if some people needed to buy Honda's to justify their previous bought cars, and were frustrated because now their tastes have changed and they can't find anymore what they want.
Hey, I would say it's not very fair to change your wife every 5 years, but there is nothing wrong with buying a Toyota or a BMW after a Honda...

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 08:57
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danielgr wrote:
computernerd wrote:
To answer the original question posed by the creator of this thread, I think TOV might be in full revolt, but I don't think the people who actually buy Honda's cars are.

To listen to all the talk on this site you wouldn't think that Honda just set another annual sales record. I fully expected (at least the base models of) the TSX and TL to be fairly similar to the previous models, why? Because they sold a lot of copies of those cars. The previous TSX far exceeded Honda's expections for annual sales, why would you abandon those consumers who actually bought the car to please a bunch of "enthusiasts" who are probably going to biatch regardless of what you do. Sure, you can add a "hot" version with SH-AWD and a turbocharged engine (and cooled seats with keyless entry????) to make the "enthusiasts" happy. But are you "enthusiasts" willing to pay $36,000 for a TSX? Honda has got to make money and the dollar ain't gettin' any stronger.

I remember all the belly aching from people who wanted HID's, memory seats, and other such things in the Accord and then when the sticker of the top level model topped $30,000 those same people started saying they weren't going to pay that much money for an Accord.

Same thing with the new Pilot, that car has been pilloried on this site, but am I missing something? or doesn't the new model look pretty much like the old one? Seems to me the new Pilot is designed to please the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the previous model instead of the tens of thousands of people who will buy CX-9s. Isn't that just good business?


Amen...
What I will never understand is why there is always so much people to criticize Honda for what they are not... obviating the part that you can define anything by either what it is or what it is not...
As a matter of fact, most of the critics I've read in this forum (growing lately) can be summarized as:
- I don't like this or that style.
- I want RWD and a bigger engine.
- I want all the possible gadgets available in other automakers.

It's funny, because, Honda globally has always:
- built FWD cars (apart from a couple of sports models)
- used small engines, never ever built a V8.
- offered a limited amount of options and less gadgets than most automakers
- showed very limited focus in pure design (I mean design as a mean of making a car beautiful above all).

There are many automakers in the world that have spent most of their existence building RWD-powerful-styled-customizable cars; if that's what you need, go for it, and leave Honda for those that don't.

To me, all this ranting is like spending your life hoping for your wife to change... Hey, if you don't like her, why don't you go with someone else? Do you really think she deserves you to complain about how she is for decades ? Specially because she may be a beautiful person whose qualities many others would appreciate. So let her be, and find yourself one you like.

I mean, you can always be critic with some stuff, but there is a limit with everything... It's not about being enthusiast or not... It's like if some people needed to buy Honda's to justify their previous bought cars, and were frustrated because now their tastes have changed and they can't find anymore what they want.
Hey, I would say it's not very fair to change your wife every 5 years, but there is nothing wrong with buying a Toyota or a BMW after a Honda...



I understand that sort of logic, and if this were HONDA we were talking about I would agree. But, since this is Acura, by that logic, perhaps it would be best for Honda to abolish Acura then, and just name everything a Honda to begin with? People keep forgetting that there was *supposed* to be a difference between Acura and Honda, but it looks to me like Acura is still just a nicer Honda trim level. Not everyone is demanding a V8 and RWD (I'd simply be happy with a new V6 engine design and SH-AWD at this point), but in the premium luxury market for the North American market, this just seems like "good enough" mentality- Acura is complacent.

80honda
Profile for 80honda
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 09:22
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Powered by Honda wrote:
AK wrote:
Well it's very simple.. if you don't like it.. leave.
Let the market decide Acura's fate.

The fact that they can't touch BMW and Lexus has blown them away speaks volumes.

Why would only the RL have cooled seats?

If the new TSX sucks, I'm gonna get an Is250 with cooled seats for $32500 OTD. (they are selling them at invoice).

IS250 V6, 6 speed automatic. 18 inch wheels in CA, Cooled seats!!!! Did I mention the keyless start and cooled seats?



ROFL @ U

The market will decide.

The new TSX will break all Honda sales records.

You forgot ppl love the TSX for what it is!!!!! Why does it sell so well? Honda was shocked aswell when they saw how amazing the TSX sold.

TSX is a GREAT CAR!!! Anyone would be lucky to own one! There is def a market for it.

I rather have a new TSX vs a IS




AMEN, I test drove an IS. Yes, the RWD is nice, but damn the car is CRAMPED. The back seat is usless. Might as well buy an S2000.

The TSX is a great car. Fun, economical, great handling for PUBLIC roads......

wrussi
Profile for wrussi
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 10:08
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TSX compared to the is250 the tsx wins because of overall layout and comfort. i cross shopped these two and in my book the tsx won. thats why i have one.

the is 250 is as slow as the tsx didnt really felt much difference between the two. is250 is much more cramped and the interior plastics are horrible.
it is also more expensive, 38k for the same features i got on my 30k tsx 6sp nav. so for my 30k budget i would have gotten a base stripped down is250.


the tsx is the best bang for the buck.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 10:11
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I understand that sort of logic, and if this were HONDA we were talking about I would agree. But, since this is Acura, by that logic, perhaps it would be best for Honda to abolish Acura then, and just name everything a Honda to begin with? People keep forgetting that there was *supposed* to be a difference between Acura and Honda, but it looks to me like Acura is still just a nicer Honda trim level. Not everyone is demanding a V8 and RWD (I'd simply be happy with a new V6 engine design and SH-AWD at this point), but in the premium luxury market for the North American market, this just seems like "good enough" mentality- Acura is complacent.


Ok, but then, if you want Acura to be that different from Honda, you have to be reasonable. You may want a new high-performance V6, but there are other people waiting for a new diesel i4, others a diesel V6, others a new-gen hybrid, others a new-gen i4, etc (others like me waiting for a 400cc VCM motorcycle wonder!!!)

Right now, Acura IS Honda. It might not be in the future, Honda is taking the necessary steps for it (sadly for me, but they are), but all that is fresh new stuff. The industrial world doesn't turn as fast as the marketing fancy critics may think.

Acura is a simple brand, at the end of the day, it's the same people building all cars in the same factories, designed in the same place with the same available options and knowledge (again, this is going to change, but still has not).

You can't pretend that from day1 to day2 all the experience and knowledge that manufacturers like BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Toyota(Lexus) have in doing what they've been doing for decades suddenly finds its way to Acura. Think about it otherwise, when has Honda brought the American people a better heavy-duty truck choice (i.e. American manufacturers speciality)? Never, and it won't happen soon.
5 years ago BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Lexus had a tone of RWD/AWD cars with big engines and over 300Hp, Honda's FWD flagship was powered by a 215Hp 3.5L engine; 2nd to the top car was a FWD 220Hp 3.2L. Now they are telling you that you'll have a near 300Hp FWD TL and a 300+Hp one with SH-AWD.... In the mean time, BMW/Mercedes/Audi just have just mainly been refining the same stuff they've always do, building on what they had.

There is a learning curve, where companies have to maximize their current assets to be sensible. Honda has been refining their engine choices and FWD platforms for decades, now you want something different, IT WILL TAKE TIME.

So it's kind of pointless to come here every single month to say "what the hell!!!!". I would say, you rather sit down and be patient, buy something else if your consumer appetite is too fast for the large industries reaction capacity, you can always come back when your desired product is here, and come back from time to time to say "Oh, I wish ..." (like Jeff does, and he has been waiting for long for some stuff). Shawn bought a G35 because Honda didn't offer anything like that, and he stills spends an awful lot of time for TOV.


Honda posted yet a best ever profit this year, up more than 30% in the last quarter, certainly it is because they are able to maximize what they have, and to go step by step. This isn't the fashion industry, nor the i-Pod one...

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 10:30
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danielgr wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I understand that sort of logic, and if this were HONDA we were talking about I would agree. But, since this is Acura, by that logic, perhaps it would be best for Honda to abolish Acura then, and just name everything a Honda to begin with? People keep forgetting that there was *supposed* to be a difference between Acura and Honda, but it looks to me like Acura is still just a nicer Honda trim level. Not everyone is demanding a V8 and RWD (I'd simply be happy with a new V6 engine design and SH-AWD at this point), but in the premium luxury market for the North American market, this just seems like "good enough" mentality- Acura is complacent.



{snip}

5 years ago BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Lexus had a tone of RWD/AWD cars with big engines and over 300Hp, Honda's FWD flagship was powered by a 215Hp 3.5L engine; 2nd to the top car was a FWD 220Hp 3.2L. Now they are telling you that you'll have a near 300Hp FWD TL and a 300+Hp one with SH-AWD.... In the mean time, BMW/Mercedes/Audi just have just mainly been refining the same stuff they've always do, building on what they had.




Actually, just a minor correction - the TL Type-S came out in 2001 with 260hp, and before that we had the 2001 260hp CL Type-S, which went on sale in 2000, IIRC. Then of course there's the 270hp MR NSX, which we had since 1990, and a 290hp version that came in 1996 with the '97 model update...

Anyhow, people can be forgiven for thinking that Acura's been dragging their feet for far too long. But I agree, re-hashing it with each little news item gets really old.

Sometimes I look at Acura and where they are today, and then I look back and think maybe I wasn't moaning loud enough in the past here because it still seems like whatever has been said has been falling on deaf ears.

carcrazy84
Profile for carcrazy84
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 12:04
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I know all the sensible reasons why Acura doesn't need a V8 or RWD, but like many have stated before, LUXURY isn't about being sensible...

I have been on this site for quite awhile and I have never seen so many unhappy enthusiasts...

I hope the folks at Honda take the comments on this site seriously and don't just read for amusement.

I like to think that true Honda/Acura enthusiasts are like any good early-adopters, they help build a brands reputation. And while many here are ok with the status quo, I'm seeing more and more frustration from a very loyal group of consumers/fans.


You're forgetting that 75% of the vocal people here are not going to buy Acuras, they're just Civic owners and fanboys who like to be critics.

The core Acura buyers, whose average age is ~50, are largely not going to be represented here.


Mansa
Profile for Mansa
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 12:14
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computernerd wrote:
To answer the original question posed by the creator of this thread, I think TOV might be in full revolt, but I don't think the people who actually buy Honda's cars are.

To listen to all the talk on this site you wouldn't think that Honda just set another annual sales record. I fully expected (at least the base models of) the TSX and TL to be fairly similar to the previous models, why? Because they sold a lot of copies of those cars. The previous TSX far exceeded Honda's expections for annual sales, why would you abandon those consumers who actually bought the car to please a bunch of "enthusiasts" who are probably going to biatch regardless of what you do. Sure, you can add a "hot" version with SH-AWD and a turbocharged engine (and cooled seats with keyless entry????) to make the "enthusiasts" happy. But are you "enthusiasts" willing to pay $36,000 for a TSX? Honda has got to make money and the dollar ain't gettin' any stronger.

I remember all the belly aching from people who wanted HID's, memory seats, and other such things in the Accord and then when the sticker of the top level model topped $30,000 those same people started saying they weren't going to pay that much money for an Accord.

Same thing with the new Pilot, that car has been pilloried on this site, but am I missing something? or doesn't the new model look pretty much like the old one? Seems to me the new Pilot is designed to please the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the previous model instead of the tens of thousands of people who will buy CX-9s. Isn't that just good business?







Werd! You read my mind.

coldbivy
Profile for coldbivy
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 12:26
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carcrazy84 wrote:
I know all the sensible reasons why Acura doesn't need a V8 or RWD, but like many have stated before, LUXURY isn't about being sensible...

I have been on this site for quite awhile and I have never seen so many unhappy enthusiasts...

I hope the folks at Honda take the comments on this site seriously and don't just read for amusement.

I like to think that true Honda/Acura enthusiasts are like any good early-adopters, they help build a brands reputation. And while many here are ok with the status quo, I'm seeing more and more frustration from a very loyal group of consumers/fans.


You're forgetting that 75% of the vocal people here are not going to buy Acuras, they're just Civic owners and fanboys who like to be critics.

The core Acura buyers, whose average age is ~50, are largely not going to be represented here.



I doubt that is true. To me, it seems that many of the the appologizers are Honda fan boys who don't own Acuras. I'm pretty sure that danielgr doesn't own one and maybe hasn't even seen one, but he posts non-stop on the Acura threads.

I do own one (a 2007 TSX). I am much younger than 50. I like the TSX, but really want something with both a little more sport and more luxury, but I don't want any more size (no 08 Accord LARGE size car). I like Honda reliability and ease of maintainance, and would like that as well. At this point, I am pessimistic that Acura will deliver what I want (even though I really wish they would -- and it is still possible a TSX-S might do it). If Acura doesn't deliver, then with my next car purchase, I may have to look to BMW, Audi, or Lexus. And that would be sad, as it would be the first time since 1995 that my wife or I would not own a Honda vehicle.

BalIermd
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 12:44
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danielgr wrote:
computernerd wrote:
To answer the original question posed by the creator of this thread, I think TOV might be in full revolt, but I don't think the people who actually buy Honda's cars are.

To listen to all the talk on this site you wouldn't think that Honda just set another annual sales record. I fully expected (at least the base models of) the TSX and TL to be fairly similar to the previous models, why? Because they sold a lot of copies of those cars. The previous TSX far exceeded Honda's expections for annual sales, why would you abandon those consumers who actually bought the car to please a bunch of "enthusiasts" who are probably going to biatch regardless of what you do. Sure, you can add a "hot" version with SH-AWD and a turbocharged engine (and cooled seats with keyless entry????) to make the "enthusiasts" happy. But are you "enthusiasts" willing to pay $36,000 for a TSX? Honda has got to make money and the dollar ain't gettin' any stronger.

I remember all the belly aching from people who wanted HID's, memory seats, and other such things in the Accord and then when the sticker of the top level model topped $30,000 those same people started saying they weren't going to pay that much money for an Accord.

Same thing with the new Pilot, that car has been pilloried on this site, but am I missing something? or doesn't the new model look pretty much like the old one? Seems to me the new Pilot is designed to please the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the previous model instead of the tens of thousands of people who will buy CX-9s. Isn't that just good business?


Amen...
What I will never understand is why there is always so much people to criticize Honda for what they are not... obviating the part that you can define anything by either what it is or what it is not...
As a matter of fact, most of the critics I've read in this forum (growing lately) can be summarized as:
- I don't like this or that style.
- I want RWD and a bigger engine.
- I want all the possible gadgets available in other automakers.

It's funny, because, Honda globally has always:
- built FWD cars (apart from a couple of sports models)
- used small engines, never ever built a V8.
- offered a limited amount of options and less gadgets than most automakers
- showed very limited focus in pure design (I mean design as a mean of making a car beautiful above all).

There are many automakers in the world that have spent most of their existence building RWD-powerful-styled-customizable cars; if that's what you need, go for it, and leave Honda for those that don't.

To me, all this ranting is like spending your life hoping for your wife to change... Hey, if you don't like her, why don't you go with someone else? Do you really think she deserves you to complain about how she is for decades ? Specially because she may be a beautiful person whose qualities many others would appreciate. So let her be, and find yourself one you like.

I mean, you can always be critic with some stuff, but there is a limit with everything... It's not about being enthusiast or not... It's like if some people needed to buy Honda's to justify their previous bought cars, and were frustrated because now their tastes have changed and they can't find anymore what they want.
Hey, I would say it's not very fair to change your wife every 5 years, but there is nothing wrong with buying a Toyota or a BMW after a Honda...



I understand exactly what both of you are saying; however, just because you are an enthusiast of a particular automaker doesn't mean you have to go along with everything they do or pretend that sh*t don't stink!

And as a fan of a particular brand, it's not so easy to just abandon them and move on to someone else. It's sort of like your favorite football team - even when they suck, you still support them. That's part of what being a "loyalist" is all about. Look up the word loyalist and you'll see what I mean. In general, most of the criticism here has been from people who really want to see Honda do well. Very few criticisms have been out right malignant. Most of what I see is frustration from fans that know Acura has the potential to actually be a tier-1 marque, but instead, is lollygagging about, letting other automakers advance ahead.

xman
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 12:46
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AK wrote:
Well it's very simple.. if you don't like it.. leave.
Let the market decide Acura's fate.

The fact that they can't touch BMW and Lexus has blown them away speaks volumes.

Why would only the RL have cooled seats?

If the new TSX sucks, I'm gonna get an Is250 with cooled seats for $32500 OTD. (they are selling them at invoice).

IS250 V6, 6 speed automatic. 18 inch wheels in CA, Cooled seats!!!! Did I mention the keyless start and cooled seats?



Yuck. What a terribly boring choice. Simply too slow and lacking in performance. I'll take the current TSX over that. There is a reason why the IS is selling with huge rebates.

duncan
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 12:47
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danielgr wrote:
Ok, but then, if you want Acura to be that different from Honda, you have to be reasonable. You may want a new high-performance V6, but there are other people waiting for a new diesel i4, others a diesel V6, others a new-gen hybrid, others a new-gen i4, etc (others like me waiting for a 400cc VCM motorcycle wonder!!!)

Right now, Acura IS Honda. It might not be in the future, Honda is taking the necessary steps for it (sadly for me, but they are), but all that is fresh new stuff. The industrial world doesn't turn as fast as the marketing fancy critics may think.

Acura is a simple brand, at the end of the day, it's the same people building all cars in the same factories, designed in the same place with the same available options and knowledge (again, this is going to change, but still has not).

You can't pretend that from day1 to day2 all the experience and knowledge that manufacturers like BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Toyota(Lexus) have in doing what they've been doing for decades suddenly finds its way to Acura. Think about it otherwise, when has Honda brought the American people a better heavy-duty truck choice (i.e. American manufacturers speciality)? Never, and it won't happen soon.
5 years ago BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Lexus had a tone of RWD/AWD cars with big engines and over 300Hp, Honda's FWD flagship was powered by a 215Hp 3.5L engine; 2nd to the top car was a FWD 220Hp 3.2L. Now they are telling you that you'll have a near 300Hp FWD TL and a 300+Hp one with SH-AWD.... In the mean time, BMW/Mercedes/Audi just have just mainly been refining the same stuff they've always do, building on what they had.

There is a learning curve, where companies have to maximize their current assets to be sensible. Honda has been refining their engine choices and FWD platforms for decades, now you want something different, IT WILL TAKE TIME.

So it's kind of pointless to come here every single month to say "what the hell!!!!". I would say, you rather sit down and be patient, buy something else if your consumer appetite is too fast for the large industries reaction capacity, you can always come back when your desired product is here, and come back from time to time to say "Oh, I wish ..." (like Jeff does, and he has been waiting for long for some stuff). Shawn bought a G35 because Honda didn't offer anything like that, and he stills spends an awful lot of time for TOV.


Honda posted yet a best ever profit this year, up more than 30% in the last quarter, certainly it is because they are able to maximize what they have, and to go step by step. This isn't the fashion industry, nor the i-Pod one...



Daniel, your inability/unwillingness to distinguish Acura from Honda is symptomatic of what ails Acura today. You insist on seeing Acura as merely an appendage to the main body that is Honda, serving only a subset of Honda's mainstream market, rather than as a distinct individual serving in a completely different market altogether.

The whole raison d'etre of Acura was an alternative premium/lux brand that can take on the Germans, and initially Acura was able to do just that. Remember how Acura kicked the snot out of BMW and MB in sales when it first came out? Well it's been relatively downhill ever since with Acura perenially falling behind BMW. Yes, Honda is indeed doing great business, but it's doing so despite of Acura, not because of it.

We can argue the relative merits and success of Lexus and Infiniti products, but at least they more or less have comparable products (i.e.: RWD & V8s) to compete head on with the Germans. Meanwhile Acura trudges on with the same old one-size-fits-all philosophy that is barely good enough. That's well reflected in Acura's lack of brand identity, cache & legitimacy among luxury carbuyers now. There's no reason for continuing to have both the TSX AND the TL to compete against the entire 3 Series--that's just pure bush league. How can Acura play the game if it isn't even fielding a proper team?

I don't buy your argument for patience--Acura as a brand has been around for 20+ yrs. That's plenty of time to develop the right luxury products--Lexus certainly has. Besides, Honda isn't a stranger to RWD or V8s--the S2000 is RWD and Honda has V8 race engines. Acura interiors are already among the market leaders, so why can't Acura put all these elements together in one package? The problem here isn't ability but willingness, and the next gen TSX & TL are clearly saying Acura is too timid to take the next leap forward.

I realize I'm oversimplifying by boiling luxury car elements to merely RWD and V8s, but these are some of the key foundations in building a credible & comparable luxury brand.

What us critics are saying isn't that we want "our wife" to change into something she's not--we want her to realize the potential she clearly has grow into something better. What we want is the best of both worlds--Honda reliability & quality + German luxury and performance. This would've been possible today if Acura hasn't dithered and turtled.


iceman6
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 13:14
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I love my TSX and plan to buy another one when the diesel engine becomes available. However, I wish Honda would get off the fence and jump feet first into the sports enthusiast market. There is no car that Audi makes that Honda couldn't compete against if it chose to. Get on with it!
archknight
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 14:51
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carcrazy84 wrote:
The core Acura buyers, whose average age is ~50, are largely not going to be represented here.



I don't know where you got that average age from but you need to look at that again the average age of an Acura owner is mid 30's. Don't forget the average 30 year old makes somewhere between 45-60K a year, at least where I live and in most major cities. To be honest, anyone in their 50's is not looking at an Acura, unless it's the top model.



Last edited by RyanDL on 01-31-2008 15:20
NealX
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 15:15
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And I've forgotten what I started fighting for!
gogzy wrote:
cant fight this feeling anymore......

MasterOfDaDomain
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 15:23
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I agree with a lot of the old timers on TOV, Acura's TSX and TL models have their market, and it doesn't make sense to deviate too far by copying the formula of other premium brands.

Acura's vehicles offer a good mix of comfort, performance, luxury, value and reliability. They are not really for hard core enthusiasts. Hardcore people can go to BMW and get a bare bone 135i or 128i with 6sp and sport package or get used M3 to have fun, but Acura is not targeting that. I think people hope Acura can do that, but that's just not what Acura wants to or can afford to do.

That said, Acura needs to do something different about the RL car. It's in a market segment that Acura is not comfortable with, and Acura has to learn from MB and Lexus in that regard. Building a V10 sports car won't solve the problem of RL.

I do think that Acura needs an affordable coupe to please the enthusiasts. Let it be RWD based on S2000, offer a small V6, 6sp or auto with paddles, give it barebone and lux versions, and let it help with the brand image.

dampflok
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 15:28
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Neal wrote:
And I've forgotten what I started fighting for!
gogzy wrote:
cant fight this feeling anymore......
LOL. The fact that I recognize the reference really dates me.

Powered by Honda
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 15:32
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Power Of Dreams wrote:
Preaching to the choir ain't gonna cut it, cowboy.

Powered by Honda wrote:
AK wrote:
Well it's very simple.. if you don't like it.. leave.
Let the market decide Acura's fate.

The fact that they can't touch BMW and Lexus has blown them away speaks volumes.

Why would only the RL have cooled seats?

If the new TSX sucks, I'm gonna get an Is250 with cooled seats for $32500 OTD. (they are selling them at invoice).

IS250 V6, 6 speed automatic. 18 inch wheels in CA, Cooled seats!!!! Did I mention the keyless start and cooled seats?



ROFL @ U

The market will decide.

The new TSX will break all Honda sales records.

You forgot ppl love the TSX for what it is!!!!! Why does it sell so well? Honda was shocked aswell when they saw how amazing the TSX sold.

TSX is a GREAT CAR!!! Anyone would be lucky to own one! There is def a market for it.

I rather have a new TSX vs a IS





Thats space cowboy!! not Cowboy!


Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 15:35
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coldbivy wrote:
I do own one (a 2007 TSX). I am much younger than 50. I like the TSX, but really want something with both a little more sport and more luxury, but I don't want any more size (no 08 Accord LARGE size car). I like Honda reliability and ease of maintainance, and would like that as well. ......If Acura doesn't deliver, then with my next car purchase, I may have to look to BMW, Audi, or Lexus. And that would be sad, as it would be the first time since 1995 that my wife or I would not own a Honda vehicle.


Bivy, it is because you raise interesting points that I like to reply to you. Please don't think I'm singling you out because my reply is to many of the posts in this thread and not just to yours. Has it ever occurred to you or the others unhappy with Acura (and Honda) that it may not be possible to combine the qualities you like in the TSX (reliability, ease of maintenance, size etc. ) with your (and my) goals of more sport and more luxury?

Let me explain. Using the IS250 as the first example. The car uses the 'holier than thou' FR drivetrain in a compact size (like the TSX). It is chock full of luxury features and textures. On the surface it's everything everyone seems to be asking for. So why is everyone still looking to Acura to fill this automotive void? As others have pointed out, it's got a tiny back seat, with a little over 200 hp it's not that sporty, and oh my gosh, once you add some options, it can easily cost high 30's

How about a BMW 328? It is also FR, and probably the standard in the class. However, at 230 hp it's a far cry from some of the posts I've seen recently asking for a 300 hp TSX. Oh, and then theres that price and reliability issue. I nicely equipped car with navi and the sport package starts approaching 40k also.

G35? It is FR and available with a manual. It offers the rip snorting 300 hp engine, a decent sized back seat, and should offer good reliability. Oh, then theres the price and size issue. Add a premium package and navigation and you're at 40K too! At 187 in it is the largest of all the cars mentioned (so far) and for me, too large.

How about a Pontiac G8? V-8, RWD, 6MT, 361 HP and it's got a big back seat! Well, it's got no luxury content and no reliability. It checks in at 196 inches long and gets 15 mpg. At least its only 30k fully loaded.

So what do we want? We want a compact (183-185) inch, RWD, 250-300 hp, 6MT car with a good back seat, good luxury content, good reliability..... all for the same price as the current car (or maybe a little more). While we're at it, why don't we ask for 2.9 financing and special lease programs. Damn you Honda, why can't you give us what we want, don't you read these boards!?



computernerd
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Re: Is ToV in full revolt?! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-31-2008 15:57
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TurkMan71 wrote:
Colin wrote:
Computernerd, check all that logic at the door.... we only allow passion here ;-)


Being sensible is fine, but only when it's not...

That's why Acura is in such a pickle, they SHOULDN'T have to abandon the TSX market, but oh, wait, is that a Tier one market? Maybe if you are an established maker with the right ingredients you can dabble in the entry level lux market, but it's not helping Acura's 'new' cause to be fighting with the big boys...


But the TSX and the TL are not the problem. BMW makes cheaper, 4 cylinder variants of the 3 and 1 series that they sell in other markets and that doesn't keep them from being a tier one player globally. Acura's problems are all at the high end. If (and to me that's a big IF) Honda wants Acura to be a tier one player they probably will have to develop a rear wheel drive platform. They probably will do something modular like Audi that they can use for the next-gen RL, NSX, and a range-topping 7 series/S class competitor. They'll also need at least a V8 to power these models. But I question whether this makes sense for Honda. It takes them away from what they've always done best and it's inconsistent with their environmental focus. Moreover, with the 35 MPG CAFE standard coming, I think the other luxury makers will probably be forced into buildiing more fuel efficient cars with smaller engines.

Even if Honda does build a rear wheel drive platform and V8s or V10's for their Acura line, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to see any of that technology on a TSX and I question whether it makes sense to put SH-AWD and a 300 horsepower in that car. The problem with this "hot" TSX is that I think it will be hard for Acura to find a viable price point for the car. The weak dollar isn't helping. The car will also likely be heavy and thirsty.




 
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