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  TOV News > Several more '09 Acura TSX, RL, and TL updates > > Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement

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BB25
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Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 14:23
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I remember back in the day when Honda/Acura used to be able to exceed power outputs of every other manufacturer using the same or smaller displacement engines. Well not anymore if they are now going to stuff a 3.7L into a midsize sedan just to match the output of Lexus and Infinity's 3.5L while probably getting worse fuel economy.

Why haven't we seen any new technology coming out of Honda/Acura. Are there major design flaws with A-Vtec. Why no DOHC V6 with 90+ hp/L and 80lbs/L (3.5L producing 315+hp and 280lbs). Where is all the R&D money going to...XM Weather.

I was really looking forward to buying a new TL in 3-4 years from now but it looks like I may spend my money elsewhere.

ml
Profile for ml
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 14:38
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BB25 wrote:
I remember back in the day when Honda/Acura used to be able to exceed power outputs of every other manufacturer using the same or smaller displacement engines. Well not anymore if they are now going to stuff a 3.7L into a midsize sedan just to match the output of Lexus and Infinity's 3.5L while probably getting worse fuel economy.

Why haven't we seen any new technology coming out of Honda/Acura. Are there major design flaws with A-Vtec. Why no DOHC V6 with 90+ hp/L and 80lbs/L (3.5L producing 315+hp and 280lbs). Where is all the R&D money going to...XM Weather.

I was really looking forward to buying a new TL in 3-4 years from now but it looks like I may spend my money elsewhere.



I agree. I am planing to spend between 32~38k in 2008 for Acura and it seems like Infiniti and Lexus will be getting my money. Unless, TSX and TL have wow factors in design, they won't get my money for FWD TSX or 3.7L SOHC TL. I am just wondering what Honda R&D has been doing for last couple of years as they don't have new engines to introduce and don't have new transmission. Why??? While others have better and more efficient engines, Honda is still doing with same old same old.

Honda-D
Profile for Honda-D
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 14:55
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Can someone with more tech knowledge explain why Honda won't go DOHC? After all, the NSX had it. Like BB said, both Toyota and Nissan has it for YEARS and DECADES now. And it does show good fuel economy (at least what EPA number suggests). So why is Honda still so far behind on their V6 tech?

Is it strictly an accountant decision?

BTW, 3.7L does provide better torque than 3.5L, DOHC or not. So it does has it's merit for a SH-AWD application.

VTECRacer
Profile for VTECRacer
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 15:02
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So all this talk from the upper-execs that the new TL will show exactly the direction that Acura is headed as a brand was true... down the drain.

Honestly, how in the world can Acura claim to want to compete with BMW head-on when their bread-and-butter TL can't compete with ANYTHING in the BMW lineup? I could see offering FWD on the TSX still with an SH-AWD option, but FWD on the TL still also? Give me a F-in break. Nobody is going to pay over $40,000 for a FWD Acura "sports" sedan.

TSX to be offered with FWD only (seems like a MAYBE for SH-AWD later)? They should be offering SH-AWD INITIALLY only and then FWD later. While they have all the buzz for the new model going, this would be the BEST time for them to push the SH-AWD system on everyone also. Why bring out the SH-AWD model later when everyone has already forgotten that the car even exists?

Don't even get me started on the engines. This means that we are probably waiting ANOTHER 5-6 years before the TL has the opportunity to receive an all new V6 engine. I am so sick of that tired J-series. This is Acura "advancing"? By pushing the same old engines in their latest line-up of cars? They can keep it.

Acura, your pockets are MUCH DEEPER than BMW's. If you want to compete with BMW, how about you come out with a car that competes with any single BMW that actually matters (RDX vs. X3? Both cars are a joke and do nothing to advance the image of Acura). I never thought I would be saying this, but Acura should just throw the towel in already. No way they are gonna be tier 1 in the U.S. Forget about the U.S. and just work in markets where the people don't already know that you are LAME. Unless you enjoy having the same image as SAAB in the U.S.

Acura. "We're telling everyone we're Advancing to tier 1, but were still doing the same old tier 2.5 shit."

VinceThe1
Profile for VinceThe1
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 15:02
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i agree, i think honda is trying to take another route with cars, and they refuse investing any more money into the gasoline engine. I personally think it's a big risk because 1, i love gasoline engiens, and 2, the fuel cell stuff might not come into play as soon as honda hopes it does...or at all, although i think it eventually will.

Honda in my opinion is investing everything they got toward fuel cell technology, and although they will be 1st and best at fuel cell, their gasoline engines have begun straying from the competition because they've been the same for about a decade, mabe some even more.

Who knows when the gasoline engine will stop getting made in production vehicles??? If things change extremely fast, 5 years?, who knows, mabe 10,15,20? mabe more...if honda doesn't step up and atleast make one final new gneneration of gasoline engines, they will fall behind for the time being and mabe never be able to use the money they have invested in fuel cell....honda is just too early in the fuel cell business, HONDA, don't give up on the gas engine yet!!

btw, where's that confirmed V8 for the RL we've been hearing about?? honda thinks it's useless?? mabe it is, but not to the market, you can't have a serious luxury car and cross shop between a v6 and a v8, the mentality of it is different....just make what the market wants...there's a reason noone talks of acura like they do of lexus...and that should be a direct competitor because every one talks of honda and toyota with the same great respect.

trust me, i love honda & acura, but as of now, acura is starting to fall behind enginewise, honda is still on top of the game but that's cuz it uses the same engines acura uses, and that's what puts acura behind, i'd hate to see that...so come on, chop chop, make a high performance DOHC V6 with capabiliy of 350hp (like the 330hp 3.7L infiniti), and ANY v8 will do, DOHC, SOHC, PUSHROD, w/e...ppl want to see a honda V8..although i was j/k about the pushrod part lol

hondamattphx
Profile for hondamattphx
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 15:18
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I don't understand the need for a V8 in the RL. The V6 variants of the GS, 5-series, and E-Class are by far the best selling.
VTECRacer
Profile for VTECRacer
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 15:21
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hondamattphx wrote:
I don't understand the need for a V8 in the RL. The V6 variants of the GS, 5-series, and E-Class are by far the best selling.


IMAGE.

VinceThe1
Profile for VinceThe1
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 15:27
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btw has anyone ever noticed that no production honda or acura in history to date has over 300hp...and they reached 300 in 2005...or atleas a fake 300 cuz in 2006 they were back below 300 (RL)...then, finally the 3.7 in the new MDX gave them a solid 300hp.

look at lexus, in 1998 they had 300hp on their gs400, and that was a dohc v8....kinda sounds better than big ass sohc v6...then, infiniti..in 2003 they jumped lexus and made their 340hp v8...and now (as 2009 models), acura is making a big v6 with barely over 300hp, still no v8, and still no big power...

mabe i'm wrong, even though the news and numbers are not very exciting...the cars in the end actually are and honda has been getting bigger and bigger even though they are behind on engines...at the end they are making a lot of money...

then again, toyota is definatly not behind and that makes even more money...and that's all i want for acura...to be as premium as lexus.

the only way that can happen...is if they make some of their cars rwd, with sh-awd as an option...the tl is fine with fwd...look at it's competitor, the lexus ES350...that's a nice fwd luxury car...but acura should have more models, something between the tl and rl that's rwd, and something above the rl that's v8, rwd, with an sh-awd option...a higher flagship than rl, and then a performance rwd(with possibility of a v8) that's above the tl performance wise, but below the rl luxury wise.

VinceThe1
Profile for VinceThe1
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 15:31
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VTECRacer wrote:
hondamattphx wrote:
I don't understand the need for a V8 in the RL. The V6 variants of the GS, 5-series, and E-Class are by far the best selling.


IMAGE.



well said, my point exactly....the image, not of the car, but of the whole acura brand will go off the roof if they just had that v8 that noone buys...it gives ppl confidence in acura.

i'm sure audi's R8 is not a bestseller...infact a dealership will be lucky to sell a few a month...but that's not the point, it gives audi a higher image and helps out even their pos 2.0L turbos sell...because ppl think audi is bad ass, and now that the nsx is gone, there's nothing to look up to (not that the nsx was an image success because every1 ignored if because of it's 290hp v6...another bad image factor)

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 15:50
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hondamattphx wrote:
I don't understand the need for a V8 in the RL. The V6 variants of the GS, 5-series, and E-Class are by far the best selling.


I don't really mind the V6s, in the TL at least. But it sounds like Acura is still continuing with a J35/7 engine! That engine is decent enough for the lower end Hondas (and even there it's starting to get long in the tooth and would need to be replaced either next generation or the one after), but in supposedly premium vehicles like Acura it's not even CLOSE to being enough, especially in comparison to the competition. I would have expected more... a completely redesigned performance V6 engine specifically for the Acura brand... but it doesn't look like we're going to get it, if the "source" of this information is correct. Honestly, how is Acura expecting to compete against Infiniti, Audi and BMW with such weakness? I refuse to believe that the engineers would look at the J35/7 and go "yup, this will be good enough".

Perhaps the source was correct about a 3.5 litre engine outputting 306 hp, maybe it's a new engine. Or perhaps it's just my imagination and I'm too optimistic. It's hard not to be cynical when talking about Acura's sedans.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 15:57
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I have a lot to say to this:

BB25:
That's one of the things I used to admire most about Honda. Engines with high specific output, like a 1.6L in a Civic or 3.0L in an Accord that would spool up easily and kill competitors with 2.2L or 3.5L engines, respectively. Those days seem to be gone.

VTECRacer:
I TOTALLY agree that SH-AWD should come out first. If you're going to introduce a product that your brand image single-handedly depends on (like the TL), you need to do it with as much flare as possible and deliver goods that will set the competition back immediately. By doing FWD first, they are giving [whomever] a nice long time to size the new TL up.

I don't necessarily think the J-series is bad, though. If used and tuned properly, they are a model of refinement and power.

VinceThe1:
A V8 (like they promised) would be a perfect way to get back to a high specific output, industry-leading power plant.

But as for needing DOHC, I think they've proved very well with the J-series that they don't need DOHC to best the competion in acceleration, etc. These SOHC engines have such a perfect torque/power curve that others need DOHC to match Honda engineering.


RyanDL
Profile for RyanDL
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 16:11
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You guys are being idiots.

First, the Acura execs mentioned the Acura brand moving to tier 1 in the next 4-5 years. In that time frame, we'll have a new TSX, new TL, NEW RL (or new flagship), and supposedly a new sports car. While I don't expect a miracle from the upcoming TSX or TL, the next sports car and flagship should be interesting.

Second, you all bitch about the J-series engine. As I've mentioned in the forum thread(s), it's still an impressive engine, despite it's age. Even with no i-VTEC and SOHC, it remains smoother than the competition and just about as powerful. While we'd all like to see a next gen V6 from Honda, the J-series is still serving them well. It has quite a bit of potential available with just a few tuning applications.

Third, you don't ever want to offer the most expensive model of a particular vehicle before an entry level version. So offering a TSX with SH-AWD before a less expensive FWD version would kill the market perception. All of the momentum that would lead up to the vehicle launch would be lost when the more affordable mainstream version were introduced later. By that point, you've already lost the potential consumers who have shopped elsewhere due to their balking of the price and feature (SH-AWD) that they don't need.

Same goes for the TL. It doesn't need AWD, but I could certainly understand their applying SH-AWD on a Type-S model since they seem to be reluctant to offer a true FR platform. The entry level car, though, should remain FWD only. Most people don't need it, nor do they want to pay for it.

You can complain back and forth to each other all you want about it, but some of this stuff is basic marketing. Which I have an advanced degree in.

Ryan

hondamattphx
Profile for hondamattphx
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 16:17
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VinceThe1 wrote:
VTECRacer wrote:
hondamattphx wrote:
I don't understand the need for a V8 in the RL. The V6 variants of the GS, 5-series, and E-Class are by far the best selling.


IMAGE.



well said, my point exactly....the image, not of the car, but of the whole acura brand will go off the roof if they just had that v8 that noone buys...it gives ppl confidence in acura.

i'm sure audi's R8 is not a bestseller...infact a dealership will be lucky to sell a few a month...but that's not the point, it gives audi a higher image and helps out even their pos 2.0L turbos sell...because ppl think audi is bad ass, and now that the nsx is gone, there's nothing to look up to (not that the nsx was an image success because every1 ignored if because of it's 290hp v6...another bad image factor)



I agree that developing an eye-catching model draws attention to the entire lineup. The NSX will fill that position in the lineup as has the R8. A V8 RL won't. The NSX draws attention to the brand and sets the tone for design language, performance reputation, etc.

And IMHO the RL's problem is brand identity, not even performance so much. The TL has been a huge success for Acura. They should consider growing that model into the RL. There is clear design lineage from the TL to the TSX. The TL looks like a grown up TSX; The MDX looks like a TL with 8 seats and AWD. The RL lacks that clean, edgy, wedge design of the other models. The RDX suffers from a lighter case of the same problem.

The other issue with the RL was the price difference separating it from the other models. A customer can naturally progress from a TSX to the TL because the price difference is maybe $5-7k. But to move from a base TL to a base RL was almost a $16k difference. So people who couldn't swallow that big of a difference looked elsewhere.

Kaiso King
Profile for Kaiso King
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 16:23
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BB25 wrote:
I remember back in the day when Honda/Acura used to be able to exceed power outputs of every other manufacturer using the same or smaller displacement engines. Well not anymore if they are now going to stuff a 3.7L into a midsize sedan just to match the output of Lexus and Infinity's 3.5L while probably getting worse fuel economy.

Why haven't we seen any new technology coming out of Honda/Acura. Are there major design flaws with A-Vtec. Why no DOHC V6 with 90+ hp/L and 80lbs/L (3.5L producing 315+hp and 280lbs). Where is all the R&D money going to...XM Weather.

I was really looking forward to buying a new TL in 3-4 years from now but it looks like I may spend my money elsewhere.



How the hell can you read what was written in the update and determine the engine technology? All that is given is the possible displacements and HP. Nowhere does it say anything about whether the engine is SOHC or DOHC. YOU have NO knowledge of the engine technology. You comments are idiotic and simply shows your ignorance.

If you want to buy another manufacture's product just go and do so and stop dissing the Acura product based soley on your imagination!!!

So there.


Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 16:29
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RyanDL wrote:
You guys are being idiots.

First, the Acura execs mentioned the Acura brand moving to tier 1 in the next 4-5 years. In that time frame, we'll have a new TSX, new TL, NEW RL (or new flagship), and supposedly a new sports car. While I don't expect a miracle from the upcoming TSX or TL, the next sports car and flagship should be interesting.

Second, you all bitch about the J-series engine. As I've mentioned in the forum thread(s), it's still an impressive engine, despite it's age. Even with no i-VTEC and SOHC, it remains smoother than the competition and just about as powerful. While we'd all like to see a next gen V6 from Honda, the J-series is still serving them well. It has quite a bit of potential available with just a few tuning applications.

Third, you don't ever want to offer the most expensive model of a particular vehicle before an entry level version. So offering a TSX with SH-AWD before a less expensive FWD version would kill the market perception. All of the momentum that would lead up to the vehicle launch would be lost when the more affordable mainstream version were introduced later. By that point, you've already lost the potential consumers who have shopped elsewhere due to their balking of the price and feature (SH-AWD) that they don't need.

Same goes for the TL. It doesn't need AWD, but I could certainly understand their applying SH-AWD on a Type-S model since they seem to be reluctant to offer a true FR platform. The entry level car, though, should remain FWD only. Most people don't need it, nor do they want to pay for it.

You can complain back and forth to each other all you want about it, but some of this stuff is basic marketing. Which I have an advanced degree in.

Ryan



Thank you for saving me a lot of typing! ;-) can I steal this cause I think I'm going to need it sometime soon! :-O

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 16:44
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RyanDL wrote:

Second, you all bitch about the J-series engine. As I've mentioned in the forum thread(s), it's still an impressive engine, despite it's age. Even with no i-VTEC and SOHC, it remains smoother than the competition and just about as powerful. While we'd all like to see a next gen V6 from Honda, the J-series is still serving them well. It has quite a bit of potential available with just a few tuning applications.

Ryan



gofast182 wrote:

I don't necessarily think the J-series is bad, though. If used and tuned properly, they are a model of refinement and power.

But as for needing DOHC, I think they've proved very well with the J-series that they don't need DOHC to best the competion in acceleration, etc. These SOHC engines have such a perfect torque/power curve that others need DOHC to match Honda engineering.


Since Ryan's comes right after mine, I just want to clarify/reiterate what I said about the J-series engines.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 16:57
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Ryan, your comments are very thoughtful. Except for one thing: You're mentioning that the J-series is very good, for Honda. Acura is NOT Honda, and they want to push themselves away from Honda. I can't believe that in this day and age, with the Infiniti G37 and even some Lexus vehicles that they would continue using a bored and stroked J-series engine. As soon as this vehicle comes out it would be facing extreme competition- what happens when those competitors undergo their own FMC's? I don't think a J35/7 would be adequate for the task.
Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 17:06
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Ryan, your comments are very thoughtful. Except for one thing: You're mentioning that the J-series is very good, for Honda. Acura is NOT Honda, and they want to push themselves away from Honda. I can't believe that in this day and age, with the Infiniti G37 and even some Lexus vehicles that they would continue using a bored and stroked J-series engine. As soon as this vehicle comes out it would be facing extreme competition- what happens when those competitors undergo their own FMC's? I don't think a J35/7 would be adequate for the task.


Not to bust you balls on this but this makes no sense!? The engines in the cars you mentioned all have homes in their Toyota or Nissan family. In some cases, its not even bored or stroked! Also in the case of Infiniti, they just underwent their FMC and we'll have 4 years before then next one. Same for the IS which is relatively new.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 17:24
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Colin wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Ryan, your comments are very thoughtful. Except for one thing: You're mentioning that the J-series is very good, for Honda. Acura is NOT Honda, and they want to push themselves away from Honda. I can't believe that in this day and age, with the Infiniti G37 and even some Lexus vehicles that they would continue using a bored and stroked J-series engine. As soon as this vehicle comes out it would be facing extreme competition- what happens when those competitors undergo their own FMC's? I don't think a J35/7 would be adequate for the task.


Not to bust you balls on this but this makes no sense!? The engines in the cars you mentioned all have homes in their Toyota or Nissan family. In some cases, its not even bored or stroked! Also in the case of Infiniti, they just underwent their FMC and we'll have 4 years before then next one. Same for the IS which is relatively new.



So what are you saying? That while the G37 offers 330 hp and the Lexus IS350 which has already arrived since fall of 2005 already offers 306 hp (along with a sizeable amount of FE and torque), that Acura should just be "somewhat close" and call it a day because it's "good enough"?

Kn1ves
Profile for Kn1ves
Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 17:34
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Kaiso King wrote:
How the hell can you read what was written in the update and determine the engine technology? All that is given is the possible displacements and HP. Nowhere does it say anything about whether the engine is SOHC or DOHC. YOU have NO knowledge of the engine technology. You comments are idiotic and simply shows your ignorance.

If you want to buy another manufacture's product just go and do so and stop dissing the Acura product based soley on your imagination!!!

So there.




So you're telling us that Honda DID develop new technology and made a whopping 6 horsepower over the existing SOHC 3.7 liter offered in the MDX?

Or that our power of deduction is greater than your lack of imagination?

Karl O.
Profile for Karl O.
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 17:37
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CarPhreakD wrote:So what are you saying? That while the G37 offers 330 hp and the Lexus IS350 which has already arrived since fall of 2005 already offers 306 hp (along with a sizeable amount of FE and torque), that Acura should just be "somewhat close" and call it a day because it's "good enough"?


You're comparing apples and mountain goats, sort of.

The IS350 is a tiny, tiny car. I think it's smaller and more cramped than my TSX. It also costs a whole lot more than a TL-S. And doesn't perform all that much better than a TL-S.

The G37 does not compete with any Acura. The G35 has a terrible interior, still. Great value, roomy, great performer but it looks and feels cheaper than the older TL. And it still doesn't drive much better than a TL.

You can compare them all, but you can pick flaws in each car. I don't think any rational person would dislike any of those cars, or the A4 or E90. But they certainly aren't carbon copies.

Magazine race 'em all you want, with specs and numbers, etc etc. But in normal driving all those cars perform at a level that is far above what anybody really needs in a car.

shingles
Profile for shingles
Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 17:48
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Ryan, your comments are very thoughtful. Except for one thing: You're mentioning that the J-series is very good, for Honda. Acura is NOT Honda, and they want to push themselves away from Honda. I can't believe that in this day and age, with the Infiniti G37 and even some Lexus vehicles that they would continue using a bored and stroked J-series engine. As soon as this vehicle comes out it would be facing extreme competition- what happens when those competitors undergo their own FMC's? I don't think a J35/7 would be adequate for the task.


I'd venture to say that a LARGE majority of the buying public for the G and TL and BMW has NO Clue what DOHC will do for them... they ask things like "how many cylinders?" "how many hp?" Not how many cams, does it have cam phasing, etc. It's car geeks like us that give a rats arse about this stuff.

VinceThe1
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Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 17:51
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i agree that the j-series is an incredible engine, the smoothness and sound of it is simply something that grows on you and stays with you...but, when they start making 3.7s, with 300hp...then that's where it becomes a problem....the cylenders become too big for a high perfomrmance engine....

in my opinion they should go to the maximum of 3.5L in the high performance j-series v6s and let them rev to 8000-8500, increasing hp to 100hp/liter with other fine tunings....

now a 3.5L TL-S with 350hp is where honda (acura) needs to be..and no, i don't think it's impossible to get that performance out of a j-series....if you're not gonna invest into a new engine, invest in tweaking the current one to overcome the competition...from then on it's enough, infiniti can come out with a 3.7L 370hp...it wudn't matter because 350hp for a sport sedan is more than enough...and if it's not then you can go to the mad germans.

boston
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Re: Honda/Acura Enging Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 18:07
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So where does this leave the rumored diesel engine going to acura first scenario?
Honda-D
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Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 18:07
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Karl O. wrote:
You're comparing apples and mountain goats, sort of.

The IS350 is a tiny, tiny car. I think it's smaller and more cramped than my TSX. It also costs a whole lot more than a TL-S. And doesn't perform all that much better than a TL-S.

The G37 does not compete with any Acura. The G35 has a terrible interior, still. Great value, roomy, great performer but it looks and feels cheaper than the older TL. And it still doesn't drive much better than a TL.

You can compare them all, but you can pick flaws in each car. I don't think any rational person would dislike any of those cars, or the A4 or E90. But they certainly aren't carbon copies.

Magazine race 'em all you want, with specs and numbers, etc etc. But in normal driving all those cars perform at a level that is far above what anybody really needs in a car.



G35/37 isn't cheap inside. I would say it's better than BMW, Mercedes, on par with Acura, not quite up to Toyota and Audi in that price range. I love the interior of that car. Way more than last gen G.

Is350 may be tiny but so is 3 and C. When people shop for entry luxury, size doesn't really matter. It's price of entry.

Also Toyota has the balls (and the money too) to play with the big boys with the release of IS-F. They may sell less than probably 2000/year but those bat-shit insane halo cars is what pushing the brand up. Playing the value card can only get you SO far. Acura needs bat-shit insane cars to survive as a brand. And you really can't play the value card any more because Hyundai Genesis will be playing that card better than any Japanese can. (Although, Hyundai not starting a new brand for the luxury line is a mistake IMO).

The next NSX should fit the bill. Like the R8 has done for Audi.
But it's pointless if stuff on NSX doesn't trickle down to the sedan line.

aznstuart
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Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 18:55
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I believe a couple of reviews said that the J37 in the MDX wasn't as smooth as normal Honda engines. hmm. That's not good. Also, we all know Honda has lots of engine expertise. How come Infiniti can get 330hp out of its VQ37 while Acura can only get 300hp?

Also, if the base TL will be FWD, does that mean that the base engine will be a J35 putting out the same 286hp from this year's Type S? Or will it be tuned out even more to 290 or 306hp? And then how will the front tires do with some much power? How much will the J37 in the Type S put out? It better be sizably better or else there'd be no point; and by sizably I mean atleast better than the G37 (330hp). If it's 5-10 hp, why bother.

And then, as the article states, what about the RL? If it has the same, or less hp than the TL, yet cost more, Acura is still going to be gunning for a failure. I think Acura should look into Twin Turbo'ing their V6s if they're going to resist V8s so badly.

CarPhreakD
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Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 19:02
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shingles wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Ryan, your comments are very thoughtful. Except for one thing: You're mentioning that the J-series is very good, for Honda. Acura is NOT Honda, and they want to push themselves away from Honda. I can't believe that in this day and age, with the Infiniti G37 and even some Lexus vehicles that they would continue using a bored and stroked J-series engine. As soon as this vehicle comes out it would be facing extreme competition- what happens when those competitors undergo their own FMC's? I don't think a J35/7 would be adequate for the task.


I'd venture to say that a LARGE majority of the buying public for the G and TL and BMW has NO Clue what DOHC will do for them... they ask things like "how many cylinders?" "how many hp?" Not how many cams, does it have cam phasing, etc. It's car geeks like us that give a rats arse about this stuff.



Actually I never mentioned anything about DOHC, though that's probably required for a performance engine with A-VTEC? What I do expect to see is a new performance engine platform from which to build upon. I mean, if Honda is able to extract max potential from a SOHC, why can't they start off a new engine series with newer technology and start extracting even more power? This isn't Honda where simplicity works best. This is Acura where good applications of technology is critical (though you don't have to go overboard either...).

I'm personally not expecting much for the RL, because it's just a MMC. Besides some mild revisions I'm not holding my breathe for much of a miracle on that front until we see a new RL.

Colin
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Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 19:26
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Colin wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You're mentioning that the J-series is very good, for Honda. ..... what happens when those competitors undergo their own FMC's? I don't think a J35/7 would be adequate for the task.


Not to bust you balls on this but this makes no sense!? The engines in the cars you mentioned all have homes in their Toyota or Nissan family. In some cases, its not even bored or stroked! Also in the case of Infiniti, they just underwent their FMC and we'll have 4 years before then next one. Same for the IS which is relatively new.



So what are you saying? That while the G37 offers 330 hp and the Lexus IS350 which has already arrived since fall of 2005 already offers 306 hp (along with a sizeable amount of FE and torque), that Acura should just be "somewhat close" and call it a day because it's "good enough"?



Absolutely Not! You are the one saying that. I was just saying that the argument that Honda/Acura engines (compared to the others) are no good because they are shared within the family was invalid because all the others share engines.

I was also commenting on the FMC argument. Acura has an advantage because they already know what the G is doing and that FMC isn't going to happen anytime soon.

osaze
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Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 20:06
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RyanDL wrote:
You guys are being idiots.

First, the Acura execs mentioned the Acura brand moving to tier 1 in the next 4-5 years. In that time frame, we'll have a new TSX, new TL, NEW RL (or new flagship), and supposedly a new sports car. While I don't expect a miracle from the upcoming TSX or TL, the next sports car and flagship should be interesting.

Second, you all bitch about the J-series engine. As I've mentioned in the forum thread(s), it's still an impressive engine, despite it's age. Even with no i-VTEC and SOHC, it remains smoother than the competition and just about as powerful. While we'd all like to see a next gen V6 from Honda, the J-series is still serving them well. It has quite a bit of potential available with just a few tuning applications.

Third, you don't ever want to offer the most expensive model of a particular vehicle before an entry level version. So offering a TSX with SH-AWD before a less expensive FWD version would kill the market perception. All of the momentum that would lead up to the vehicle launch would be lost when the more affordable mainstream version were introduced later. By that point, you've already lost the potential consumers who have shopped elsewhere due to their balking of the price and feature (SH-AWD) that they don't need.

Same goes for the TL. It doesn't need AWD, but I could certainly understand their applying SH-AWD on a Type-S model since they seem to be reluctant to offer a true FR platform. The entry level car, though, should remain FWD only. Most people don't need it, nor do they want to pay for it.

You can complain back and forth to each other all you want about it, but some of this stuff is basic marketing. Which I have an advanced degree in.

Ryan



Its more than just maketing, its common sense, which I've been saying in these forums for some time now. Acura knows that we have a perennial fuel crisis on our hands going forward, so it makes good sense to offer the TL and TSX in FWD versions first, followed by another hot-rod version with SH-AWD and gobbs of power, hopefully Type S versions for both the TL and TSX.

RyanDL
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Re: Honda/Acura Engine Advancement [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 20:31
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osaze wrote:
Its more than just maketing, its common sense, which I've been saying in these forums for some time now. Acura knows that we have a perennial fuel crisis on our hands going forward, so it makes good sense to offer the TL and TSX in FWD versions first, followed by another hot-rod version with SH-AWD and gobbs of power, hopefully Type S versions for both the TL and TSX.

The new TL and TSX have been in development for quite a long time, well before the US congress announced the new CAFE standards for future vehicles. Since Honda already leads in CAFE ratings, it's not like they're under the gun to make sweeping changes to their powertrain lineup (like GM just did by cancelling an entire line of V8s). Sure, a FF will have better FE than an AWD version of a vehicle, but that's certainly not the sole reason for the difference.

Ryan


 
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