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  TOV News > i-DTEC to be seen first in TSX. 2.3 Turbo still in the cards for '09 TSX? > > Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual

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2007RC46SP2
Profile for 2007RC46SP2
SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 19:15
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lets hope that there going to use a 6spd manual or DSG type Gearbox.

some sort of DSG would be great.

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 19:42
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The 6-speed manual is already confirmed. Unless they spent a lot of money to develop a 5 speed DSG, it is not likely.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 19:43
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That's going to be the key factor. If Acura does not offer a manual tranny with the SH-AWD setups on their new sedans (TL and TSX) regardless of engine choice, they're going to be screwed and lose most of what little remains of their enthusiast market.

SC

Sasker
Profile for Sasker
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 22:41
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Without a real (3-pedal) manual transmission, Acura's SH-AWD system is severely handicapped. A real manual transmission can be used across the board, the TL the TSX, and the RDX (and even the RL - why not).

Then they can claim to be competing with the likes of BMW.




zapata
Profile for zapata
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 22:59
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DSG....though nice for some can't be the only choice. Slap a premium on it but for god sakes not on the 6MT.
2007RC46SP2
Profile for 2007RC46SP2
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 06:19
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why not offer it with 6spd manual
and
6spd DSG with full auto option. (or even 7spd)

and forget about a traditional automatic

archknight
Profile for archknight
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 08:34
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We all know Honda owns patents to 6- & 7-sp ATs, but whether they are DSG hasn't been confirmed. If Acura is serious about stepping into tier1, they have to ditch the 5AT and introduce a 6DSG or 7DSG. I have read in a few places the TL will have a 6AT but it hasn't been confirmed whether it's the same standard AT configuration. Question is, "Will they wait to introduce it on the TL or will it debut on the TSX?" We all thought the diesel would appear on a larger car first but now it's confirmed to appear on the TSX, who's to say they won't do the same with the new AT.
bbelding
Profile for bbelding
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 08:58
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It seems like most regular readers of TOV are very worried that Acura won't marry SH-AWD and 6MT. I get the same feeling, but I wonder if it's just because SH-AWD has shown up first on cars/trucks that have never had a 6MT (leaving aside the car formerly known as Legend in the US).

I have a feeling that Acura won't abandon us, the few and proud who jumped for joy when Honda and Acura announced a pair of 6MT and V6 pairings (Accord and TL). The current TL-S 6MT, with a simple addition of SH-AWD, would produce an automobile that could hold its ground and lead the pack with anything comparable from BMW, MB, Audi, etc.

outatimemk
Profile for outatimemk
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 11:16
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However, Acura stopped producing the TL 3.5 with a manual after the MMC, and stopped producing the Accord V6 6speed sedan for the FMC. It's been said by honda that they haven't been able to do the development work to mate SH-AWD to a manual tranny some time back, and seeing how their japanese competition doesn't offer a manual option + AWD (the euros are a different story) I don't think we're going to see it. My hope is that Acura will decide to bring something different to the table for the luxury enthusiasts who want the manual + AWD, but I think it's just hope at this point.
Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 14:15
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archknight wrote:
Question is, "Will they wait to introduce it on the TL or will it debut on the TSX?" We all thought the diesel would appear on a larger car first but now it's confirmed to appear on the TSX, who's to say they won't do the same with the new AT.


Since our order sheet clearly shows 5AT, I think the question has answered itself. I don't think that a diesel will need a lot of gears with the reported torque these things generate, so I'd look for a 6AT to debut on the TL.

Ivtec2
Profile for Ivtec2
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 18:45
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notyper wrote:
That's going to be the key factor. If Acura does not offer a manual tranny with the SH-AWD setups on their new sedans (TL and TSX) regardless of engine choice, they're going to be screwed and lose most of what little remains of their enthusiast market.

SC



I agree. While we are a smaller demographic overall we have a tremendous influence. I have said it before....Acura needs to keep growing its line-up with its buyers.

To abandon the enthusiasts would be brand suicide.

The lack of manual in their sportiest sedan would only keep the preception of the brand sorely where it is....behind everyone else.

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 19:07
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Ivtec2 wrote:
notyper wrote:
That's going to be the key factor. If Acura does not offer a manual tranny with the SH-AWD setups on their new sedans (TL and TSX) regardless of engine choice, they're going to be screwed and lose most of what little remains of their enthusiast market.

SC



I agree. While we are a smaller demographic overall we have a tremendous influence. I have said it before....Acura needs to keep growing its line-up with its buyers.

To abandon the enthusiasts would be brand suicide.

The lack of manual in their sportiest sedan would only keep the preception of the brand sorely where it is....behind everyone else.



It is ironic that they have to make a 6MT that will sell only 10% of the production volume to satisfy the vocal minority (us). Same thing with a V-8.... It's got to rub 'efficiency minded Honda' like we cannot imagine!

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 21:13
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I agree Colin, it probably pisses some people off inside Honda. OTOH, there are plenty of enthusiast engineers who probably love the idea.

What it comes down to though is business. There are probably those that make the case inside Honda that catering to a market that will increase sales so incrementally doesn't make financial sense. And on paper, they might even be right. The problem is, people like us are influencers. People come to us for insight and advice on what to buy. Others simply observe what we are driving. Others still like to know that a version of their car is particularly fast or potent performance wise, even if they chose the pedestrian version.

I think that Honda, particularly HMA, has forgotten about these factors in the last 5 years especially. And by simply looking at top line costs vs. sales on halo and performance models, they are missing the additional sales generated in the more pedestrian model range. It is shortsighted, but then again, Honda marketing in the US hasn't exactly been a shining example of the breed.

SC

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2008 00:33
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outatimemk wrote:
However, Acura stopped producing the TL 3.5 with a manual after the MMC, and stopped producing the Accord V6 6speed sedan for the FMC. It's been said by honda that they haven't been able to do the development work to mate SH-AWD to a manual tranny some time back, and seeing how their japanese competition doesn't offer a manual option + AWD (the euros are a different story) I don't think we're going to see it. My hope is that Acura will decide to bring something different to the table for the luxury enthusiasts who want the manual + AWD, but I think it's just hope at this point.



The 6MT is still available on the 3.5L TL-S, and it is still available on the Accord, just not with 4 doors.

outatimemk
Profile for outatimemk
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2008 02:18
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Sorry, I meant 3.2. The point is though, that I think they're phasing it out, the reason being that they either don't want to spend $$ on development work attaching it to SH-AWD, and/or they think the market isn't big enough. I still think they're only going to offer an auto option with SH-AWD. (My hope is that they will offer the 6MT + SH-AWD, otherwise I'm snapping up an A5 quattro or a 335xi coupe).
Chuck
Profile for Chuck
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2008 10:42
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Well said, Ivtec2,

IMO, capturing the enthusiast market helps brand equity in many latent ways that might not by an immediate pay-off. Look no further than visible and physical condition of the next Buick, Oldsmobile, Lincoln, Mercury, Pontiac etc... you notice on the road if you want to see the results of ignoring the enthusiast market. This is one of the many reasons why Imports are "En Vogue" right now...brand equity due to long-term quality. It's going to take GM years to get rid of the stereo-type that is stinking up their cars. Even used BMWs are in tremendous demand- arguably more so than many new cars. (Drive through Northern VA if you don't agree). It must be a coincidence that they offer a MT on almost every model they produce.

Ok, so I'm not saying that all car companies need to do is put a MT on their cars and they will instantly have brand equity. But, I will say that many enthusiasts will look elsewhere if "sporty" or "performance" models aren't offered with MT option.


Disclaimer: I apologize in advance to the enthusiasts out there that prefer paddle-shifters

Ivtec2
Profile for Ivtec2
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-26-2008 22:06
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notyper wrote:
I agree Colin, it probably pisses some people off inside Honda. OTOH, there are plenty of enthusiast engineers who probably love the idea.

What it comes down to though is business. There are probably those that make the case inside Honda that catering to a market that will increase sales so incrementally doesn't make financial sense. And on paper, they might even be right. The problem is, people like us are influencers. People come to us for insight and advice on what to buy. Others simply observe what we are driving. Others still like to know that a version of their car is particularly fast or potent performance wise, even if they chose the pedestrian version.

I think that Honda, particularly HMA, has forgotten about these factors in the last 5 years especially. And by simply looking at top line costs vs. sales on halo and performance models, they are missing the additional sales generated in the more pedestrian model range. It is shortsighted, but then again, Honda marketing in the US hasn't exactly been a shining example of the breed.

SC




The enthusiast market is what puts the buzz into products....
Even if the the guy that reads Car and Drive goes and buys the 335 or G35 with the automatic after reading the glowing review of the manual....its that buzz that puts people in the showroom and creates a product that is desired...

It's just confusing....the company that in 2000 made the GS-R, the Prelude, and the S2000 has not produced a product that those buyers could move up to.

At that time those where cars that really where the best buys in their segmant.

In 2008, the TSX and TL are really middle of the pack cars...and the S2000 has really not changed much....it is a "time less" sports car but its buyer need to have something more to move up too....

What I really don't understand is why Acura can't create a vehicle that is 8/10th of the 335 and 8/10th of the price??

I don't need a $45,000 car that hits 0-60 in under 5 seconds...i would just like a car that is well balanced, not FWD, have a manual and hit the 0-60 mark in 6 to 6.5 seconds

Sell it at 35K with NAVI and I think you have a home run on your hands.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-27-2008 13:42
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HMA? I think you mean AHM?

HMA builds whatever AHM tells them to.

Question...... How would a fully manual transmission mesh with SH-AWD? It seems to me that an SMG or AT with SS would mesh better with the software that drives SH-AWD.

Indeed, an SMG or AT with SS might make the car faster. Remember how Ferrari found out that its test drivers were faster in Fiorano with SMG because the shfits were much faster?

notyper wrote:
I agree Colin, it probably pisses some people off inside Honda. OTOH, there are plenty of enthusiast engineers who probably love the idea.

What it comes down to though is business. There are probably those that make the case inside Honda that catering to a market that will increase sales so incrementally doesn't make financial sense. And on paper, they might even be right. The problem is, people like us are influencers. People come to us for insight and advice on what to buy. Others simply observe what we are driving. Others still like to know that a version of their car is particularly fast or potent performance wise, even if they chose the pedestrian version.

I think that Honda, particularly HMA, has forgotten about these factors in the last 5 years especially. And by simply looking at top line costs vs. sales on halo and performance models, they are missing the additional sales generated in the more pedestrian model range. It is shortsighted, but then again, Honda marketing in the US hasn't exactly been a shining example of the breed.

SC



notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-27-2008 14:45
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An AT sucks too much power. SMG cars with a clutch are generally quicker because of reduced shift times.

However, SH-AWD doesn't depend upon transmission logic for its benefits. At its simplest, it biases torque and wheelspeed from one side to another. As long as it knows its torque input, vehicle speed and steering angle, everything else is pretty easy to take care of. That's why you can disconnect the driveshaft on an SH-AWD car and nothing happens other than you lose torque to the rear tires.

SC

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-27-2008 17:26
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outatimemk wrote:
Sorry, I meant 3.2. The point is though, that I think they're phasing it out, the reason being that they either don't want to spend $$ on development work attaching it to SH-AWD, and/or they think the market isn't big enough. I still think they're only going to offer an auto option with SH-AWD. (My hope is that they will offer the 6MT + SH-AWD, otherwise I'm snapping up an A5 quattro or a 335xi coupe).


I don't really think they are phasing it out, as much as they are rationalizing it.

It costs them money to put it in cars, and thus it makes sense to put it in the cars that would be most suited for it. Since the TL-S is the enthusiast model, and enthusiats buyers are likely to step up to the TL-S anyway, it still satisfies the enthusiasts, while simplifying production. Now that the TL-S is out, I wouldn't even CONSIDER a base model TL, because I would have to forego the extra power, the extra features, and the extra suspension tuning in order to do so. What is the point of the 6MT, if you don't get the other good stuff that compliments it? There is much more to being a driving enthusiast than just shifting for yourself. At least to me.

As for Accord, most enthusiasts there also looked to the coupe. I have seen tons of manual coupes, but only 1 or 2 manual 4 doors. And they sat on the lots for a long time before they finally sold. The one in my local town was there for almost a year. But they can't keep the V6 manual coupes in stock. So really, they save a little bit of money and 95+% of enthusiasts that would buy that model have what they would choose anyway.



Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-29-2008 10:32
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Ivtec2 wrote:
notyper wrote:
I agree Colin, it probably pisses some people off inside Honda. OTOH, there are plenty of enthusiast engineers who probably love the idea.

What it comes down to though is business. There are probably those that make the case inside Honda that catering to a market that will increase sales so incrementally doesn't make financial sense. And on paper, they might even be right. The problem is, people like us are influencers. People come to us for insight and advice on what to buy. Others simply observe what we are driving. Others still like to know that a version of their car is particularly fast or potent performance wise, even if they chose the pedestrian version.

I think that Honda, particularly HMA, has forgotten about these factors in the last 5 years especially. And by simply looking at top line costs vs. sales on halo and performance models, they are missing the additional sales generated in the more pedestrian model range. It is shortsighted, but then again, Honda marketing in the US hasn't exactly been a shining example of the breed.

SC




The enthusiast market is what puts the buzz into products....
Even if the the guy that reads Car and Drive goes and buys the 335 or G35 with the automatic after reading the glowing review of the manual....its that buzz that puts people in the showroom and creates a product that is desired...

It's just confusing....the company that in 2000 made the GS-R, the Prelude, and the S2000 has not produced a product that those buyers could move up to.

At that time those where cars that really where the best buys in their segmant.

In 2008, the TSX and TL are really middle of the pack cars...and the S2000 has really not changed much....it is a "time less" sports car but its buyer need to have something more to move up too....

What I really don't understand is why Acura can't create a vehicle that is 8/10th of the 335 and 8/10th of the price??

I don't need a $45,000 car that hits 0-60 in under 5 seconds...i would just like a car that is well balanced, not FWD, have a manual and hit the 0-60 mark in 6 to 6.5 seconds

Sell it at 35K with NAVI and I think you have a home run on your hands.



That is so on the point!

The answer is that they can, and they bloody well ought to be right now!

What I THINK happened was Fukui's predecessor must have been an accountant snuk in from Ford and we got this hiatus of 'halo' cars in favour of grey porridge models.

OK, the balance sheet growth stopped Honda being taken over, but the brand image is really suffering now. The next 2-3 years will make or break the business model.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: SH-AWD and 6spd manual [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-29-2008 14:51
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What I was thinking about is transient response.

 
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