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  TOV News > i-DTEC to be seen first in TSX. 2.3 Turbo still in the cards for '09 TSX? > > Re: A-VTEC

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xlude
Profile for xlude
A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:08
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And what about the new A-VTEC engines? I've heard about some delays
osaze
Profile for osaze
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 20:39
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xlude wrote:
And what about the new A-VTEC engines? I've heard about some delays


Yeh, what about A-Vtec. I thought that the '09 TSX was supposed to present new Acura engineering like new engine technology?! Has Acura engineers met with some hurdles in regards to A-Vtec, or did Audi beat then to it? These and other questions TOV'ers would like to know

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 20:47
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Yeah, A-VTEC would make a lot of sense for a base engined TSX!
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 22:05
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osaze wrote:
xlude wrote:
And what about the new A-VTEC engines? I've heard about some delays


Yeh, what about A-Vtec. I thought that the '09 TSX was supposed to present new Acura engineering like new engine technology?! Has Acura engineers met with some hurdles in regards to A-Vtec, or did Audi beat then to it? These and other questions TOV'ers would like to know




Did Audi beat Honda to what? Audi doesn't have a system that works the same way that A-Vtec does

osaze
Profile for osaze
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 00:22
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CarPhreakD wrote:
osaze wrote:
xlude wrote:
And what about the new A-VTEC engines? I've heard about some delays


Yeh, what about A-Vtec. I thought that the '09 TSX was supposed to present new Acura engineering like new engine technology?! Has Acura engineers met with some hurdles in regards to A-Vtec, or did Audi beat then to it? These and other questions TOV'ers would like to know




Did Audi beat Honda to what? Audi doesn't have a system that works the same way that A-Vtec does



An article published in Car and Driver sometime last year, the issue I cannot remember, indicated that Audi had indeed developed a variable timing system that was quite similar to Honda's engineering vision of A-Vtec. According to the article, the technology will be in production soon. I remember when I read it I was stunned and wanted to post it for discussion, but never got around to it. The article only said that Audi's technology was similar to A-VTEC.

King77
Profile for King77
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 04:39
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It will be bad if TSX will not come with it...
silverf161
Profile for silverf161
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-24-2008 00:08
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Here's my guess at what happened to A-VTEC. The technology is undergoing final tweaks. Delays were a result of reliability problems. AVTEC has been in working Honda test beds for at least a couple years now.

Back when Fukui was developing the CVCC technology, Soichiro Honda show case the technology to the world and promised delivery of CVCC in a short time frame even though development was not complete. This put the fire under the design team lead by the engineer Fukui. Fukui succeed and brought the technology to market in time.

Fukui is putting this same fire on his engineering staff and it flopped on timing. This engine was to be ready by Fall 07 for JDM accord. Different people, different leaders.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-24-2008 05:27
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osaze wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
osaze wrote:
xlude wrote:
And what about the new A-VTEC engines? I've heard about some delays


Yeh, what about A-Vtec. I thought that the '09 TSX was supposed to present new Acura engineering like new engine technology?! Has Acura engineers met with some hurdles in regards to A-Vtec, or did Audi beat then to it? These and other questions TOV'ers would like to know




Did Audi beat Honda to what? Audi doesn't have a system that works the same way that A-Vtec does



An article published in Car and Driver sometime last year, the issue I cannot remember, indicated that Audi had indeed developed a variable timing system that was quite similar to Honda's engineering vision of A-Vtec. According to the article, the technology will be in production soon. I remember when I read it I was stunned and wanted to post it for discussion, but never got around to it. The article only said that Audi's technology was similar to A-VTEC.


It's funny, what Audi was presenting in past years French Auto Show (September) was a system that was doing the same as VTEC, nothing to do with A-VTEC. Might be two different things though.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2008 00:30
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osaze wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
osaze wrote:
xlude wrote:
And what about the new A-VTEC engines? I've heard about some delays


Yeh, what about A-Vtec. I thought that the '09 TSX was supposed to present new Acura engineering like new engine technology?! Has Acura engineers met with some hurdles in regards to A-Vtec, or did Audi beat then to it? These and other questions TOV'ers would like to know




Did Audi beat Honda to what? Audi doesn't have a system that works the same way that A-Vtec does



An article published in Car and Driver sometime last year, the issue I cannot remember, indicated that Audi had indeed developed a variable timing system that was quite similar to Honda's engineering vision of A-Vtec. According to the article, the technology will be in production soon. I remember when I read it I was stunned and wanted to post it for discussion, but never got around to it. The article only said that Audi's technology was similar to A-VTEC.



The article published in Car and Driver said no such thing. I read it. Audi's new valve timing system is much closer in implementation to traditional VTEC. It switches from low lift to high lift and back. The main difference is that the Audi system can vary its engagement point so that you don't FEEL it switch.

AVTEC is entirely different. AVTEC works much like BMW's Valvetronic, which can not only infinitely vary timing, but also lift. A camshaft for all speeds basically. It just so happens that Honda's version is much more compact and less massive than BMW's system, which should be more friendly on high revving engines.

Audi didn't invent anything that hasn't already been done.

osaze
Profile for osaze
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2008 02:47
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owequitit wrote:
osaze wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
osaze wrote:
xlude wrote:
And what about the new A-VTEC engines? I've heard about some delays


Yeh, what about A-Vtec. I thought that the '09 TSX was supposed to present new Acura engineering like new engine technology?! Has Acura engineers met with some hurdles in regards to A-Vtec, or did Audi beat then to it? These and other questions TOV'ers would like to know




Did Audi beat Honda to what? Audi doesn't have a system that works the same way that A-Vtec does



An article published in Car and Driver sometime last year, the issue I cannot remember, indicated that Audi had indeed developed a variable timing system that was quite similar to Honda's engineering vision of A-Vtec. According to the article, the technology will be in production soon. I remember when I read it I was stunned and wanted to post it for discussion, but never got around to it. The article only said that Audi's technology was similar to A-VTEC.



The article published in Car and Driver said no such thing. I read it. Audi's new valve timing system is much closer in implementation to traditional VTEC. It switches from low lift to high lift and back. The main difference is that the Audi system can vary its engagement point so that you don't FEEL it switch.

AVTEC is entirely different. AVTEC works much like BMW's Valvetronic, which can not only infinitely vary timing, but also lift. A camshaft for all speeds basically. It just so happens that Honda's version is much more compact and less massive than BMW's system, which should be more friendly on high revving engines.

Audi didn't invent anything that hasn't already been done.



I stand corrected. In what issue of CAR and Driver was that article?

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-25-2008 05:40
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I should imagine Audi's is similar to Porsche's, since there is only really one car company in Germany!

I wish Honda's engineers all the best with fixing the bugs. The customers need that engine as much as Honda does!

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-27-2008 17:40
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Nick Graves wrote:
I should imagine Audi's is similar to Porsche's, since there is only really one car company in Germany!

I wish Honda's engineers all the best with fixing the bugs. The customers need that engine as much as Honda does!




I believe Porsche uses a traditional camshaft phasing system. I know it is called VarioCam.

Audi's is similar to Honda's VTEC in that it actually has seperate cam lobes and can switch between the two.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-27-2008 18:30
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osaze wrote:
owequitit wrote:
osaze wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
osaze wrote:
xlude wrote:
And what about the new A-VTEC engines? I've heard about some delays


Yeh, what about A-Vtec. I thought that the '09 TSX was supposed to present new Acura engineering like new engine technology?! Has Acura engineers met with some hurdles in regards to A-Vtec, or did Audi beat then to it? These and other questions TOV'ers would like to know




Did Audi beat Honda to what? Audi doesn't have a system that works the same way that A-Vtec does



An article published in Car and Driver sometime last year, the issue I cannot remember, indicated that Audi had indeed developed a variable timing system that was quite similar to Honda's engineering vision of A-Vtec. According to the article, the technology will be in production soon. I remember when I read it I was stunned and wanted to post it for discussion, but never got around to it. The article only said that Audi's technology was similar to A-VTEC.



The article published in Car and Driver said no such thing. I read it. Audi's new valve timing system is much closer in implementation to traditional VTEC. It switches from low lift to high lift and back. The main difference is that the Audi system can vary its engagement point so that you don't FEEL it switch.

AVTEC is entirely different. AVTEC works much like BMW's Valvetronic, which can not only infinitely vary timing, but also lift. A camshaft for all speeds basically. It just so happens that Honda's version is much more compact and less massive than BMW's system, which should be more friendly on high revving engines.

Audi didn't invent anything that hasn't already been done.



I stand corrected. In what issue of CAR and Driver was that article?



I will have to go back and find that article, I don't seem to have it handy. It seems to me that it was a sidebar included in their review of the A5.

If I find it, I will let you know.



owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-27-2008 18:31
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owequitit wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
I should imagine Audi's is similar to Porsche's, since there is only really one car company in Germany!

I wish Honda's engineers all the best with fixing the bugs. The customers need that engine as much as Honda does!




I believe Porsche uses a traditional camshaft phasing system. I know it is called VarioCam.

Audi's is similar to Honda's VTEC in that it actually has seperate cam lobes and can switch between the two.




Correction. Porsche also has VarioCam Plus, which is essentially very similar to i-VTEC.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-27-2008 18:44
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Here are a couple of good links to it, and then back to topic for me:

http://www.audiworld.com/news/06/paris-audi-28fsi-v6-engine/

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0707_2008_audi_a5_s5_first_drive/photo_13.html

Does anybody have any new information on the availability of AVTEC?

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-28-2008 13:46
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An intriguing system, different from Porsche's.

Not entirely sure that slinging the outer sleeve on the camshaft back & forth's entriely a good idea, but it reduces that worrying point wear on Porche's low-speed cams.

It's nice to see they've caught up with Honda. In about 1986.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-28-2008 14:02
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As far as A-VTEC goes, it's gonna need incredibly accurate assembly, to get the valve clearances right on & off cam.

Which is fine until wear sets in, since there's some funny angles off-cam.

I still feel I'd like to see some sort of hydraulic lash adjuster in there, somewhere.

Maybe they've simplified the patent app., so that even an idiot like me can understand it.

Adv
Profile for Adv
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-28-2008 14:31
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Nick Graves wrote:
As far as A-VTEC goes, it's gonna need incredibly accurate assembly, to get the valve clearances right on & off cam.

Which is fine until wear sets in, since there's some funny angles off-cam.

I still feel I'd like to see some sort of hydraulic lash adjuster in there, somewhere.

Maybe they've simplified the patent app., so that even an idiot like me can understand it.


LOL. Self-irony is a great quality to have!

I'm not an automobile engineer but can't stop thinking about an electronically controlled valvetrain. It would be chip based; the front end of the chip receives input from the throttle and translates that input via a suitable algorithm to the right valve opening and lift. The algorithm would be hard wired (essentially being the chip's circuit). That means you can use the same front end of the chip for different engines, even for different manufacturers, and the back end of the chip would be engine based to accommodate for engine specifics.

Is that science fiction? Am I talking out of my ass now? Such as system would not be a two stage VTEC but essentially an infinite stage valve opening and lift. Of course, one could pull it off with an ingenious mechanical design but it might have reliability problems (complex design, wear and tear, etc.)

Maybe I should be posting this in the strictly tech forum but I doubt I would be able to understand the replies!







owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-29-2008 00:25
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Adv wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
As far as A-VTEC goes, it's gonna need incredibly accurate assembly, to get the valve clearances right on & off cam.

Which is fine until wear sets in, since there's some funny angles off-cam.

I still feel I'd like to see some sort of hydraulic lash adjuster in there, somewhere.

Maybe they've simplified the patent app., so that even an idiot like me can understand it.


LOL. Self-irony is a great quality to have!

I'm not an automobile engineer but can't stop thinking about an electronically controlled valvetrain. It would be chip based; the front end of the chip receives input from the throttle and translates that input via a suitable algorithm to the right valve opening and lift. The algorithm would be hard wired (essentially being the chip's circuit). That means you can use the same front end of the chip for different engines, even for different manufacturers, and the back end of the chip would be engine based to accommodate for engine specifics.

Is that science fiction? Am I talking out of my ass now? Such as system would not be a two stage VTEC but essentially an infinite stage valve opening and lift. Of course, one could pull it off with an ingenious mechanical design but it might have reliability problems (complex design, wear and tear, etc.)

Maybe I should be posting this in the strictly tech forum but I doubt I would be able to understand the replies!









That would be the ideal evolution, but I don't think they are quite there yet. There are a few prelim systems running, but I don't think they are working as well as promised, or on some level they would have caught on.

From what I have read, the biggest hurdle is making an actuator that is light, reliable, durable, compact and can move quickly enough to keep the valves where they need to be. Currently F1 racing seems to be the closest, and they are still using bumpsticks to open the valves, and then drawing them closed using pneumatic pressure, to prevent valve float. So they are maybe half way there, or almost that far.

The ideal system would eliminate the camshaft all together, and save all of its associate mass, friction, inertia etc. Maybe Hydrogen is easier. LOL!

Adv
Profile for Adv
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-29-2008 09:05
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Thanks for the update. I needed that! I didn't know that F1 used these exciting technologies. I stopped watching when the late Ayrton Da Silva Senna died back in 1994. I think Honda left in 1993 and at the time they had the best engines. Perhaps the most powerful and reliable V12s ever made. I think now the use V8s and I heard a rumor they want to challenge them even further and force V4s!

Back to Honda and Senna, the usual scenario would be Senna 1st and Gerchard Berger in second place. One year the McLaren Honda team had won 15 out of 16 grand prix circuits, which is still a standing record. No other manufacturer has achieved that, not even Ferrari.

As for the Hydrogen technology that is definitely more exciting than an ICE. What I find fascinating is that there are no cylinders, no pistons, no internal combustion chamber. Maintenance would be so much easier. No oil changes any more! Such an engine, being electric, can probably last for two decades! Maybe you don't need to buy more than 3 cars in your lifetime! Don't know though if they would be suitable for racing.






Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: A-VTEC [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-29-2008 10:24
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FIAT are alleged to have a similar air system ready for their smallest 8-valve engines. But you need an air pump, etc.

A-VTEC is the simplest & most robust-looking system I have seen as yet. I'm sure it could be linked directly to the throttle pedal, in its simplest instal.

I suspect Valvetronic's wear problems might yet manifest themselves, but so far, so good.


 
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