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  TOV News > i-DTEC to be seen first in TSX. 2.3 Turbo still in the cards for '09 TSX? > > Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in?

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Colin
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I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 19:50
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Sorry, I just can’t wrap my brain around the idea of where the turbo 4 fits in with what we already know as confirmed and what we "know” of how Honda works. Here’s my train of thought

-Fact: The ’09 TSX is arriving in April and will be available with a 5AT or a 6MT.
-Fact: The i-DTEC engine will come to the TSX in 2009, probably as a 2010.
-Fact: There is no current application of a 6MT and SH-AWD.
-Fact: The K23 in the RDX uses a transmission from the RL due to the torque output and it's use of SH-AWD
-Fact: Acura has successfully put 256 lb.ft. (@5000) through the Type-S manual.

What if the car coming in two months has the turbo 4 as the base engine? Has Acura found a way to manage the torque for the auto and a new manual because these transmissions are already confirmed?

What if the car coming in two months has a V-6? It is certainly doable because Acura has already done this in both the ’08 Accord and current TL but does this make marketing sense? Would you start with a V-6 then bring out the diesel 4 and turbo 4?

The only thing that makes sense is that the initial TSX will have an evolution of the NA K24 that the current car has. This means they can continue to use the existing 5AT and 6MT transmissions. In one year, they release the new diesel with a heavy duty automatic transmission (probably from the V-6 cars).

By this time the new TL is out, and if it priced like many expect, they can release a V-6 to satisfy all the existing V-6 customers unwilling to move to the newer price point for the TL.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something? Any thoughts?

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 20:14
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Colin wrote:
Sorry, I just can’t wrap my brain around the idea of where the turbo 4 fits in with what we already know as confirmed and what we "know” of how Honda works. Here’s my train of thought

-Fact: The ’09 TSX is arriving in April and will be available with a 5AT or a 6MT.
-Fact: The i-DTEC engine will come to the TSX in 2009, probably as a 2010.
-Fact: There is no current application of a 6MT and SH-AWD.
-Fact: The K23 in the RDX uses a transmission from the RL due to the torque output and it's use of SH-AWD
-Fact: Acura has successfully put 256 lb.ft. (@5000) through the Type-S manual.

What if the car coming in two months has the turbo 4 as the base engine? Has Acura found a way to manage the torque for the auto and a new manual because these transmissions are already confirmed?

What if the car coming in two months has a V-6? It is certainly doable because Acura has already done this in both the ’08 Accord and current TL but does this make marketing sense? Would you start with a V-6 then bring out the diesel 4 and turbo 4?

The only thing that makes sense is that the initial TSX will have an evolution of the NA K24 that the current car has. This means they can continue to use the existing 5AT and 6MT transmissions. In one year, they release the new diesel with a heavy duty automatic transmission (probably from the V-6 cars).

By this time the new TL is out, and if it priced like many expect, they can release a V-6 to satisfy all the existing V-6 customers unwilling to move to the newer price point for the TL.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something? Any thoughts?



I agree - it doesn't make a ton of sense, but over the past few days I've heard from some folks who claim to have received information from "above" talking about the next-gen TSX, mentioning both the i-DTEC and "RDX engine". Then there's the story from Automotive News which I'm almost certain came from a different source, so I can't ignore these things. Honestly, I hope the K23t rumor is false. Prior to this development, the latest info I had heard made it sound like there wasn't going to be a turbo, at least initially.

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 23:55
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Jeff wrote:
Colin wrote:
I don't know, maybe I'm missing something? Any thoughts?


I agree - it doesn't make a ton of sense, but over the past few days I've heard from some folks who claim to have received information from "above" talking about the next-gen TSX, mentioning both the i-DTEC and "RDX engine".....Prior to this development, the latest info I had heard made it sound like there wasn't going to be a turbo, at least initially.



We were speaking with those 'higher ups' a few months ago about the possibility of a turbo, He kinda smiled and said that 'we're on the right track'. I'm thinking that he was (slyly) referring the the turbo diesel.

see_ping
Profile for see_ping
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 01:05
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Honda shouldn't put a turbo into the TSX if it yields the same results as in the RDX. I thought Honda was all for NA and the benefits of VTEC?
blackstripe77
Profile for blackstripe77
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 03:31
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I thought so too. I hope they stick to that. But then again, this will be Acura, a company which they are trying to differentiate from Honda.
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 05:05
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Let's looks at this production wise;

They have homologated the K23T and it's only used in one vehicle that barely sells.

There is some rumour that their clockwork cams have seized up, so the KA24 isn't gonna be ready for the off.

What would you do?

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 05:47
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Nick Graves wrote:
Let's looks at this production wise;

They have homologated the K23T and it's only used in one vehicle that barely sells.

There is some rumour that their clockwork cams have seized up, so the KA24 isn't gonna be ready for the off.

What would you do?



I agree 100% that the costs of developing the K23 for the RDX should be shared with another car and that it is very un-Honda like to put it in only one vehicle. However, it is worth remembering that the current TSX engine is a 'one of a kind' engine as well, so there is some precedence for this.

I hadn't heard any news (good or bad) on the advanced VTEC, are they having reliability issues? Faced with the possibility that the existing K24 is maxed out, and that the A-VTEC isn't ready, they could turn to the turbo as a stopgap measure. BUT, I'm betting if a K23 makes it into a TSX chassis, it will pair with SH-AWD in the TSX based coupe.

archknight
Profile for archknight
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 07:01
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Colin wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
Let's looks at this production wise;

They have homologated the K23T and it's only used in one vehicle that barely sells.

There is some rumour that their clockwork cams have seized up, so the KA24 isn't gonna be ready for the off.

What would you do?



I agree 100% that the costs of developing the K23 for the RDX should be shared with another car and that it is very un-Honda like to put it in only one vehicle. However, it is worth remembering that the current TSX engine is a 'one of a kind' engine as well, so there is some precedence for this.

I hadn't heard any news (good or bad) on the advanced VTEC, are they having reliability issues? Faced with the possibility that the existing K24 is maxed out, and that the A-VTEC isn't ready, they could turn to the turbo as a stopgap measure. BUT, I'm betting if a K23 makes it into a TSX chassis, it will pair with SH-AWD in the TSX based coupe.




I agree that it wouldn't make any sense marketing wise if they brought out the K23T SH-AWD first (because that setup would be the only way to handle the torque produced by the turbo) unless they are not going to have the K24 FWD like everyone thinks. I just reflect back to what was said months ago about them trying to move Acura into tier1 category and separating themselves from Honda, it makes perfect sense. We all think that Acura will introduce all of it's most advanced technologies on it's larger sedans first, but now we know that the first diesel for the US is going into the TSX, so what would stop them from introducing the first 6sp or 7sp AT in the TSX. We all the know that a 6AT has been confirmed for the TL and Honda owns patents for both types of these ATs for a few years now, this would also be another step into the tier1 category. The introduction of the diesel engine mated to either the 6MT or 5-,6-, or 7AT could easily be managed look at VW's 6DSG and 6MTs. Most complaints about Acura are about hp, torque, and the fact that they are all FWD or FWD biased. I am the first to admit that's why I made the decision not to purchase one because of it's lack in power for price and nothing else at the time really interested me. The RDX was their first turbo application and it actually succeeded in it's sales projections despite it's heavy weight. Also, you have to think they would use this as a test bed and modify the engine as needed to suit their needs, they've had almost 3 years to do this. Seeing as how other manufacturers are using turbo technology and getting great fuel economy from their cars, I believe Acura could do the same. So if they are moving it slightly closer to the current TL's size adding a powerful turbo engine with lots of torque on something as lightweight as the TSX I say go for it. If they apply the same aluminum panels to keep the weight down as they did with the RL, then the additional weight of the SH-AWD system shouldn't be a problem. My view of things maybe a bit broader than most cause I see them not only taking sales from the likes of Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, etc., but also Mitsubishi & Subaru. Lastly if they introduced a powerful V6 later as a Type-S, I see it taking on the higher end models of vehicles in it's segment but still remaining the value leader. This gives them an extended range of choices without truly overlapping price ranges with their volume sellers. With the TL moving into the $41K-$43K range with it's larger size (SH-AWD) upon introduction it will more likely start competing in it's proper class (5-series, GS, M35/45, A6, etc.), leaving the TSX to truly fill the gap in the $30k-$40K range as Audi does with the A4 & A6.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 11:43
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Colin wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
Let's looks at this production wise;

They have homologated the K23T and it's only used in one vehicle that barely sells.

There is some rumour that their clockwork cams have seized up, so the KA24 isn't gonna be ready for the off.

What would you do?



I agree 100% that the costs of developing the K23 for the RDX should be shared with another car and that it is very un-Honda like to put it in only one vehicle. However, it is worth remembering that the current TSX engine is a 'one of a kind' engine as well, so there is some precedence for this.

I hadn't heard any news (good or bad) on the advanced VTEC, are they having reliability issues? Faced with the possibility that the existing K24 is maxed out, and that the A-VTEC isn't ready, they could turn to the turbo as a stopgap measure. BUT, I'm betting if a K23 makes it into a TSX chassis, it will pair with SH-AWD in the TSX based coupe.



hOW is the TSX engine one of a kind? It's shared with the Eu/JDM and the CR-V in essence. A turbo requires a LOT of changes.

Honda hasn't admitted it of course, but there are rumours of 'delays'. I can see some high stress areas of the design that would cause me concern.

Maybe it is fine & the mapping takes longer than they hoped...



Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 13:56
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Nick Graves wrote:
Colin wrote:
Nick Graves wrote:
Let's looks at this production wise;

They have homologated the K23T and it's only used in one vehicle that barely sells.

There is some rumour that their clockwork cams have seized up, so the KA24 isn't gonna be ready for the off.

What would you do?



However, it is worth remembering that the current TSX engine is a 'one of a kind' engine as well, so there is some precedence for this.




hOW is the TSX engine one of a kind? It's shared with the Eu/JDM and the CR-V in essence. A turbo requires a LOT of changes.

Honda hasn't admitted it of course, but there are rumours of 'delays'. I can see some high stress areas of the design that would cause me concern.




Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the European Accord share the valvetrain with the domestic Accord and CR-V and use the 2.4 with the 'simpler' i-VTEC with intake only VTEC. I've visited the euro site and looked at what I can but everything seems to point to no VTEC on exhaust.

As for the high hopes for the TSX and Acura's proposed 'Tier 1" initiative. I think that in 'hondaspeak' this means they want to offer 'tier 1' levels of performance and luxury but do it the Honda way.



RedBug
Profile for RedBug
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 15:18
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A 2.4 engine (K24A) in Europe and Japan is very similar to the TSX engine, has the VTEC both in intake and exhaust. FYI, Japanese has an Euro-R version, which has a 2.0 engine (K20A) with 220 PS/8,000rpm.
Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 17:18
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RedBug wrote:
A 2.4 engine (K24A) in Europe and Japan is very similar to the TSX engine, has the VTEC both in intake and exhaust. FYI, Japanese has an Euro-R version, which has a 2.0 engine (K20A) with 220 PS/8,000rpm.


Yeah, I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. I know they are similar, but I want to know if they're the same. If you go to this site: http://www.honda.co.uk/car/ and click on the Accord Tourer, then the "performance" tab, they show the available engines. If you click on the 2.0 they have a little animation that shows the valvetrain and it's not VTEC on exhaust. Unfortunately if you click on the 2.4 it gives a different animation that doesn't show the valvetrain. No help there.

RedBug
Profile for RedBug
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 18:18
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You need to trust me on this. Japanese Honda site (http://www.honda.co.jp/ACCORD/mechanism/index.html) says that the 2.4 engine has VTEC both on intake and exhaust. I-VTEC with only intake will not give 200 ps even with 2.4L....
Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 18:49
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I-VTEC on intake only can make 190 as in the new USDM Accord, but I believe you till I hear otherwise. I stand corrected on my assertion that the US TSX engine is unique in the Honda/Acura world.
R-Z
Profile for R-Z
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 18:51
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1. US TSX will get a V6
2. Japan/Euro Accord will get 2.3 Turbo
3. They will both get the i-DTEC, which is also a Turbo motor.

This make sense...

Colin
Profile for Colin
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-23-2008 19:04
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R-Z wrote:
1. US TSX will get a V6
2. Japan/Euro Accord will get 2.3 Turbo
3. They will both get the i-DTEC, which is also a Turbo motor.

This make sense...



I agree with #1 but not for 2009, I don't worry to much about #2, and I love how #3 might be confusing so many people into thinking the 2.3 Turbo is a 'slam dunk' for the TSX.


RedBug
Profile for RedBug
Re: I don't see where the turbo 4 fits in? [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-30-2008 13:35
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Honda announced that they show the new Euro Accord at the Geneva Motor Show in March. The engines are 2.0 and 2.4 i-VTEC and 2.2 i-DTEC engines.

 
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