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  TOV News > i-DTEC to be seen first in TSX. 2.3 Turbo still in the cards for '09 TSX? > > Re: bah! turbos blow

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archknight
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Keep hope alive!!! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 11:21
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I was hoping they would see the light on the K23T or maybe K24T with the A-VTEC engine going into the TSX. It would be reasonable to assume it can be tuned into the 270+hp range and give off 290+lb-ft of torque to make it a force in the entry level segment. With Acura refinement and tuning it would be the absolute best luxury sport compact in the segment.
RyanDL
Profile for RyanDL
Re: Keep hope alive!!! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 11:44
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archknight wrote:
I was hoping they would see the light on the K23T or maybe K24T with the A-VTEC engine going into the TSX. It would be reasonable to assume it can be tuned into the 270+hp range and give off 290+lb-ft of torque to make it a force in the entry level segment. With Acura refinement and tuning it would be the absolute best luxury sport compact in the segment.

I'd rather not see a turbo in the sportiest model. The throttle response and lag simply make for a vehicle that isn't as tractable as an equivalent naturally aspirated model. If they do wind-up with a K23T in the TSX, I'll immediately be convinced that they're targeting Audi. As it stands, I'm only moderately convinced that they're going in that direction by the presumption that they are deploying SH-AWD on all future sporty models.

But let me make a comment on the RDX's K23 engine: it uses an economy version of i-VTEC, similar to that used in the base RSX's K20A3. I wonder if the TSX gets a hot version of this engine with a sport tune of the i-VTEC implementation, using a head design similar to that of the K20A2, K20Z1, and K20Z3. That should be good for more top-end power with a minimal hit in low-end torque.

Ryan

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 11:49
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archknight wrote:
I was hoping they would see the light on the K23T or maybe K24T with the A-VTEC engine going into the TSX. It would be reasonable to assume it can be tuned into the 270+hp range and give off 290+lb-ft of torque to make it a force in the entry level segment. With Acura refinement and tuning it would be the absolute best luxury sport compact in the segment.


while acura clearly needed to up their game on the TSX's power levels, the last thing I wanted to see was a turbocharger. I'm holding out hope that the real performance model will have a hot NA motor.

ml
Profile for ml
Re: Keep hope alive!!! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 11:53
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RyanDL wrote:
archknight wrote:
I was hoping they would see the light on the K23T or maybe K24T with the A-VTEC engine going into the TSX. It would be reasonable to assume it can be tuned into the 270+hp range and give off 290+lb-ft of torque to make it a force in the entry level segment. With Acura refinement and tuning it would be the absolute best luxury sport compact in the segment.

I'd rather not see a turbo in the sportiest model. The throttle response and lag simply make for a vehicle that isn't as tractable as an equivalent naturally aspirated model. If they do wind-up with a K23T in the TSX, I'll immediately be convinced that they're targeting Audi. As it stands, I'm only moderately convinced that they're going in that direction by the presumption that they are deploying SH-AWD on all future sporty models.

But let me make a comment on the RDX's K23 engine: it uses an economy version of i-VTEC, similar to that used in the base RSX's K20A3. I wonder if the TSX gets a hot version of this engine with a sport tune of the i-VTEC implementation, using a head design similar to that of the K20A2, K20Z1, and K20Z3. That should be good for more top-end power with a minimal hit in low-end torque.

Ryan



I totally agree. My preference will be A-VTEC 220hp-200ft-lbs and strong NA V6. I want Acura to have something comparable to IS350 without Turbo. So i can have options between those two. In term of brand, i prefer Acura over Lexus based on handling and fun to drive factors.

zapata
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 11:54
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By hot do you mean larger displacement? I don't really mind but unless that's going to happen, other than NA fans, the reception will be, "Honda introduces another high revving motor, where's the torque in the intro lux box?".
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:14
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zapata wrote:
By hot do you mean larger displacement? I don't really mind but unless that's going to happen, other than NA fans, the reception will be, "Honda introduces another high revving motor, where's the torque in the intro lux box?".

Here is something they could do, that may have suited the TSX pretty well provided it is still light and nimble enough.
- Leave SH-AWD for the TL, put an LSD on it.
- Forget about torque-monsters (3.5L and Turbo engines), bring a higher revving NA SOHC 3.0L V6 with around 260-270Hp.

Sure they could do it, and:
- it wouldn't be much heavier than the DOHC Turbo 2.3L or the 2.4L DOHC, so driving dynamics should be healthy
- it wouldn't use that much gasoline (think 7th gen Accord V6).
- it would offer the needed performance upgrade, without mixing with neither Accord nor TL.
- it would have more than enough torque for a TSX (this isn't a heavy SUV),
- it would have instant response with some real character, but refined enough for an Acura (way more than the K23T), far from being a crazy revving I4.

That would be something nobody else is offering, and the most logical evolutionary step from current gen TSX core values.

But well, then would come American big-engine fans and claim that such car is underpowered when compared with the IS350 and so on... So it won't happen, although it is a real pity because it would have been enough to retune the now dead J30 the same way they retuned the J35.

RyanDL
Profile for RyanDL
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:19
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danielgr wrote:
Here is something they could do, that may have suited the TSX pretty well provided it is still light and nimble enough.
- Leave SH-AWD for the TL, put an LSD on it.
- Forget about torque-monsters (3.5L and Turbo engines), bring a higher revving NA SOHC 3.0L V6 with around 260-270Hp.

Sure they could do it, and:
- it wouldn't be much heavier than the DOHC Turbo 2.3L or the 2.4L DOHC, so driving dynamics should be healthy
- it wouldn't use that much gasoline (think 7th gen Accord V6).
- it would offer the needed performance upgrade, without mixing with neither Accord nor TL.
- it would have more than enough torque for a TSX (this isn't a heavy SUV),
- it would have instant response with some real character, but refined enough for an Acura (way more than the K23T), far from being a crazy revving I4.

That would be something nobody else is offering, and the most logical evolutionary step from current gen TSX core values.

But well, then would come American big-engine fans and claim that such car is underpowered when compared with the IS350 and so on... So it won't happen, although it is a real pity because it would have been enough to retune the now dead J30 the same way they retuned the J35.


While something like a J30 would make sense, if they're going to plop a V6 in a TSX, I would hope they'd use a J35 in a TSX (Type-S). Think about it: the weight penalty is nil since it's the same block. In fact, a J35 may be lighter since there's less metal in the block due to the larger bore.

A 3.5L TSX would compete with an IS350. With nearly 300HP on tap, it would be quite fast, too.

Ryan

98EX4cyl
Profile for 98EX4cyl
Re: Keep hope alive!!! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:26
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ml wrote:
RyanDL wrote:
archknight wrote:
I was hoping they would see the light on the K23T or maybe K24T with the A-VTEC engine going into the TSX. It would be reasonable to assume it can be tuned into the 270+hp range and give off 290+lb-ft of torque to make it a force in the entry level segment. With Acura refinement and tuning it would be the absolute best luxury sport compact in the segment.

I'd rather not see a turbo in the sportiest model. The throttle response and lag simply make for a vehicle that isn't as tractable as an equivalent naturally aspirated model. If they do wind-up with a K23T in the TSX, I'll immediately be convinced that they're targeting Audi. As it stands, I'm only moderately convinced that they're going in that direction by the presumption that they are deploying SH-AWD on all future sporty models.

But let me make a comment on the RDX's K23 engine: it uses an economy version of i-VTEC, similar to that used in the base RSX's K20A3. I wonder if the TSX gets a hot version of this engine with a sport tune of the i-VTEC implementation, using a head design similar to that of the K20A2, K20Z1, and K20Z3. That should be good for more top-end power with a minimal hit in low-end torque.

Ryan



I totally agree. My preference will be A-VTEC 220hp-200ft-lbs and strong NA V6. I want Acura to have something comparable to IS350 without Turbo. So i can have options between those two. In term of brand, i prefer Acura over Lexus based on handling and fun to drive factors.



Why not put the 7th Gen Accord 3.0LV6 into the TSX? It would now be exclusive to Acura (as its no longer used by Honda).

* Yes I realize this idea is not original and has been kicked around since 2003, I'm still just hoping HMC actually read our posts over the years and gave us what we wanted *

98EX4cyl
Profile for 98EX4cyl
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:33
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RyanDL wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Here is something they could do, that may have suited the TSX pretty well provided it is still light and nimble enough.
- Leave SH-AWD for the TL, put an LSD on it.
- Forget about torque-monsters (3.5L and Turbo engines), bring a higher revving NA SOHC 3.0L V6 with around 260-270Hp.

Sure they could do it, and:
- it wouldn't be much heavier than the DOHC Turbo 2.3L or the 2.4L DOHC, so driving dynamics should be healthy
- it wouldn't use that much gasoline (think 7th gen Accord V6).
- it would offer the needed performance upgrade, without mixing with neither Accord nor TL.
- it would have more than enough torque for a TSX (this isn't a heavy SUV),
- it would have instant response with some real character, but refined enough for an Acura (way more than the K23T), far from being a crazy revving I4.

That would be something nobody else is offering, and the most logical evolutionary step from current gen TSX core values.

But well, then would come American big-engine fans and claim that such car is underpowered when compared with the IS350 and so on... So it won't happen, although it is a real pity because it would have been enough to retune the now dead J30 the same way they retuned the J35.


While something like a J30 would make sense, if they're going to plop a V6 in a TSX, I would hope they'd use a J35 in a TSX (Type-S). Think about it: the weight penalty is nil since it's the same block. In fact, a J35 may be lighter since there's less metal in the block due to the larger bore.

A 3.5L TSX would compete with an IS350. With nearly 300HP on tap, it would be quite fast, too.

Ryan




I say leave it at 3.0L but like Daniel suggested blow it out to 260-270hp. While the 3.5 could compete with Lexus, the 3.0L would compete with BMW and isn't that the real target?

archknight
Profile for archknight
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:39
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I thought the same thing about having a revamped version of the J30, J32, or J35 engine to match the likes of the IS350, 335i, etc. at first, being a major horsepower fanatic especially in a car as light as the TSX. Then I thought about Subaru, Mitsubishi, and Audi each has a powerful 2.0T making high horsepower and torque but still delivering on the fun to drive factor. Acura has always delivered on the fun to drive factor but most complain their isn't enough horsepower or torque even in their most powerful engines, hence the turbocharger. I suggested early on in the original segment that they even turbo charge the J30 or J32 in the Type-S model to better compete with the IS350 & 335i, it would simply give everyone a taste of what they want. To keep Honda as the fuel efficient leader it is, the K23T makes the most sense, seeing as in the TSX it has less weight to propel and could render higher gas mileage mated to a 6MT or 6AT--which has been said will appear on the new TL. Either way, some customers with not be happy with what they decide. For me as long as it delivers great performance at an outstanding price I am all in.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:42
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98EX4cyl wrote:
RyanDL wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Here is something they could do, that may have suited the TSX pretty well provided it is still light and nimble enough.
- Leave SH-AWD for the TL, put an LSD on it.
- Forget about torque-monsters (3.5L and Turbo engines), bring a higher revving NA SOHC 3.0L V6 with around 260-270Hp.

Sure they could do it, and:
- it wouldn't be much heavier than the DOHC Turbo 2.3L or the 2.4L DOHC, so driving dynamics should be healthy
- it wouldn't use that much gasoline (think 7th gen Accord V6).
- it would offer the needed performance upgrade, without mixing with neither Accord nor TL.
- it would have more than enough torque for a TSX (this isn't a heavy SUV),
- it would have instant response with some real character, but refined enough for an Acura (way more than the K23T), far from being a crazy revving I4.

That would be something nobody else is offering, and the most logical evolutionary step from current gen TSX core values.

But well, then would come American big-engine fans and claim that such car is underpowered when compared with the IS350 and so on... So it won't happen, although it is a real pity because it would have been enough to retune the now dead J30 the same way they retuned the J35.


While something like a J30 would make sense, if they're going to plop a V6 in a TSX, I would hope they'd use a J35 in a TSX (Type-S). Think about it: the weight penalty is nil since it's the same block. In fact, a J35 may be lighter since there's less metal in the block due to the larger bore.

A 3.5L TSX would compete with an IS350. With nearly 300HP on tap, it would be quite fast, too.

Ryan




I say leave it at 3.0L but like Daniel suggested blow it out to 260-270hp. While the 3.5 could compete with Lexus, the 3.0L would compete with BMW and isn't that the real target?



I think a J30 would be sufficient, particularly if it were built to handle 8000+ rpms. It would sound like a little F1 motor and Acura could probably coax close to 300hp from it if they wanted to. My only concern would be that it would lose whatever it is that the current TSX has that makes it feel so much better than the TL.

RyanDL
Profile for RyanDL
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:43
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98EX4cyl wrote:
I say leave it at 3.0L but like Daniel suggested blow it out to 260-270hp. While the 3.5 could compete with Lexus, the 3.0L would compete with BMW and isn't that the real target?

That would be OK, but obviously to get that much out of a 3.0L, it would have to be a revver. That's going to take some additional engineering resources to tweak the bottom and and come up with a revised head design. I'd certainly prefer a higher-revving V6 than what the J35 currently offers, but being a penny-pinching company, you never know what Honda is going to approve.

It's now a waiting game.

Ryan

MasterOfDaDomain
Profile for MasterOfDaDomain
Re: Keep hope alive!!! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:45
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The info on the TSX has been confusing, since it could have 4 engine choices, I4, turbo 4, diesel, and V6. TSX volume wouldn't be high enough to offer too many choices, but maybe Acura moves all the sedans upmarket.

Acura probably sees the competition and say, definitely no I4 for the North America market. The next choice is turbo or V6. Since V6 is nothing new and overlaps with Accord, why not a turbo? Maybe this version is now improved, fuel economy and response wise. I don't know if this will have SHAWD, but LSD is a good way to go. Then TSX will get an economic diesel model in 2009 without SHAWD.

Not a bad combination, given what Acura has now.

coldbivy
Profile for coldbivy
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 12:55
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98EX4cyl wrote:
RyanDL wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Here is something they could do, that may have suited the TSX pretty well provided it is still light and nimble enough.
- Leave SH-AWD for the TL, put an LSD on it.
- Forget about torque-monsters (3.5L and Turbo engines), bring a higher revving NA SOHC 3.0L V6 with around 260-270Hp.

Sure they could do it, and:
- it wouldn't be much heavier than the DOHC Turbo 2.3L or the 2.4L DOHC, so driving dynamics should be healthy
- it wouldn't use that much gasoline (think 7th gen Accord V6).
- it would offer the needed performance upgrade, without mixing with neither Accord nor TL.
- it would have more than enough torque for a TSX (this isn't a heavy SUV),
- it would have instant response with some real character, but refined enough for an Acura (way more than the K23T), far from being a crazy revving I4.

That would be something nobody else is offering, and the most logical evolutionary step from current gen TSX core values.

But well, then would come American big-engine fans and claim that such car is underpowered when compared with the IS350 and so on... So it won't happen, although it is a real pity because it would have been enough to retune the now dead J30 the same way they retuned the J35.


While something like a J30 would make sense, if they're going to plop a V6 in a TSX, I would hope they'd use a J35 in a TSX (Type-S). Think about it: the weight penalty is nil since it's the same block. In fact, a J35 may be lighter since there's less metal in the block due to the larger bore.

A 3.5L TSX would compete with an IS350. With nearly 300HP on tap, it would be quite fast, too.

Ryan




I say leave it at 3.0L but like Daniel suggested blow it out to 260-270hp. While the 3.5 could compete with Lexus, the 3.0L would compete with BMW and isn't that the real target?


They won't because it has no advantage over the 3.5, plus it uses many parts that Honda is no longer manufacturing. Plus it would make TSX regulatory work more difficult. Why on Earth would Honda put the 3.5/3.7 in the Accord, Ridgeline, Odyssy, Pilot, Legend, TL-S, RL, and MDX and then decide to put a J30, which has been completely supplanted by the J35 in the TSX?

With the introduction of the 09 TL, the J30 and J32 will be gone.

RyanDL
Profile for RyanDL
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:07
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coldbivy wrote:
They won't because it has no advantage over the 3.5, plus it uses many parts that Honda is no longer manufacturing. Plus it would make TSX regulatory work more difficult. Why on Earth would Honda put the 3.5/3.7 in the Accord, Ridgeline, Odyssy, Pilot, Legend, TL-S, RL, and MDX and then decide to put a J30, which has been completely supplanted by the J35 in the TSX?

With the introduction of the 09 TL, the J30 and J32 will be gone.


I wouldn't say that Honda is no longer manufacturing parts for the J30 and J32. Those were heavily used in multiple platforms for several years, which means there needs to be a lot of support for them. I forget what the timeline is for a manufacturer to provide replacement parts for vehicles, but I think it's on the order of 10 years. Therefore, if they want to build a J30 or J32, they have all the necessary components.

I just think a 3.5L makes sense for a top trim TSX. Look at a couple of competitors (granted, these are really the only 2 that make my point):

IS250, IS350 -> GS350, GS430
A4 2.0T, A4 3.2 -> A6 3.2, A6 4.2
Therefore: TSX 2.4, TSX 3.5 -> TL 3.5, TL 3.7

Ryan

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:24
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RyanDL wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Here is something they could do, that may have suited the TSX pretty well provided it is still light and nimble enough.
- Leave SH-AWD for the TL, put an LSD on it.
- Forget about torque-monsters (3.5L and Turbo engines), bring a higher revving NA SOHC 3.0L V6 with around 260-270Hp.

Sure they could do it, and:
- it wouldn't be much heavier than the DOHC Turbo 2.3L or the 2.4L DOHC, so driving dynamics should be healthy
- it wouldn't use that much gasoline (think 7th gen Accord V6).
- it would offer the needed performance upgrade, without mixing with neither Accord nor TL.
- it would have more than enough torque for a TSX (this isn't a heavy SUV),
- it would have instant response with some real character, but refined enough for an Acura (way more than the K23T), far from being a crazy revving I4.

That would be something nobody else is offering, and the most logical evolutionary step from current gen TSX core values.

But well, then would come American big-engine fans and claim that such car is underpowered when compared with the IS350 and so on... So it won't happen, although it is a real pity because it would have been enough to retune the now dead J30 the same way they retuned the J35.


While something like a J30 would make sense, if they're going to plop a V6 in a TSX, I would hope they'd use a J35 in a TSX (Type-S). Think about it: the weight penalty is nil since it's the same block. In fact, a J35 may be lighter since there's less metal in the block due to the larger bore.

A 3.5L TSX would compete with an IS350. With nearly 300HP on tap, it would be quite fast, too.

Ryan


On it's current shape the J35 was heavily reworked with the introduction of the RL, whereas the J30 was left behind.

That said, I still think the J30 would serve them better:
- I don't have data, but I would be surprised if Honda couldn't work on the J30 and make it lighter than the J35.
- The J30 gets noticeably better fuel economy.
- Assuming Honda is not going to bring a new family of V6 engines this year, a J35 TSX will eat on the TL even if it started with the J37 (which I doubt), .
- With a J35 the TSX won't be that fundamentally different from the Accord either (specially when compared with the 6MT coupe).
- A higher revving J30 would suit better the TSX family/idea than a torquier J35.
- A J30 may seem alone in the line-up, but the TSX will be made in Japan, and I would be surprised if they switched all their V6 models to 3.5L over there. An improved J30 would be a welcome addition for a high-spec JDM Odyssey for example. If it's already too much (currently there is no V6 Ody), they could introduce it in VCM-2 trim for JDM models, and in aggressive one for the US-TSX (just as with the J35).
Again, if there is a V6 Ody with 3.5L, that would eat on Elysions' sales. The VCM J30 was too small for America's big cars, but it wouldn't be for Europe&Japan ones, specially if it can run on 4-cyls as well.
That VCM-2 J30 could even been sold in Europe, whereas a J35 could never be.

To me Honda had something like 3 'sensible' options (there would of course be a base-TSX as well):
1) J35 FWD TSX-S, AWD J35/J37 TL.
2) J30 FWD TSX-S, FWD J35 TL, AWD J37 TL-S.
3) K23T AWD TSX-S, FWD J35TL, AWD J37 TL-S.

I would say that:
- Option 1) wouldn't be good, because that will eat a possible base TL, which could benefit easily from current TL-S hardware (just as it happened with current TL). Honda needs to offer more choice to Acura customers, and this option minimizes it.
- Option 2) would have been the best balance for all the reasons below, although I don't think it's likely to happen, because that would simply be too good, and I'm not that positive anymore.
- Option 3) would make business sense (keep TSX on 4-cyls, make some profit from K23T investment, have an all AWD Type-S Acura line-up), but I simply don't like the formula. It may sell or not, it just mess up anything that was good on the TSX.


Anyway, who cares about all this stuff. No matter what, the car is already there, there won't be anymore changes to it. There will be people happy, there will for sure be detractors. We'll soon find out.

Varmint
Profile for Varmint
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:29
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RyanDL wrote:
While something like a J30 would make sense, if they're going to plop a V6 in a TSX, I would hope they'd use a J35 in a TSX (Type-S). Think about it: the weight penalty is nil since it's the same block. In fact, a J35 may be lighter since there's less metal in the block due to the larger bore.

Perhaps Shawn or someone more mechanically inclined can answer this, but does moving up displacement also require similar moves for related systems?

I mean, sure the J35 may have less metal in the block, but wouldn't that engine also move more air requiring larger intake and exhaust components? Wouldn't the J35 generate more heat, requiring a beefier cooling system... oil... fuel... transmission... etc.? While Acura could keep the mass of these components in check, doing so would probably require additional costs.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:31
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RyanDL wrote:
I just think a 3.5L makes sense for a top trim TSX. Look at a couple of competitors (granted, these are really the only 2 that make my point):

IS250, IS350 -> GS350, GS430
A4 2.0T, A4 3.2 -> A6 3.2, A6 4.2
Therefore: TSX 2.4, TSX 3.5 -> TL 3.5, TL 3.7

Ryan


I answered to why I believe the J30 to be a better choice in my other post, I'll just add a comment on this quote.

There is a fundamental difference on these two cases and the TSX-TL one. Unless something radically changes, TSX and TL share platform and are very close in size.

That given, I don't think Honda could find enough model differentiation between them as Audi can find on their A4-A6 or Lexus on their IS-LS. Not unless we are talking FWD-AWD, but, as I explained below, I don't think that would be wise.


coldbivy
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:32
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I agree. The car is already there. Jeff seems to now think it will be the 2.3T.

However, you said one thing that I keep hearing, but don't understand. If a TSX-S and base TL are priced to provide similar gross margins to Honda, why would they be worried about the TSX-S eating into TL sales? One seems just as good as the other to me.

danielgr
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:39
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coldbivy wrote:

However, you said one thing that I keep hearing, but don't understand. If a TSX-S and base TL are priced to provide similar gross margins to Honda, why would they be worried about the TSX-S eating into TL sales? One seems just as good as the other to me.


Well, no matter what you do, adding choices and options to the customer adds costs to the company. No matter if it goes in the factory, suppliers, marketing, or in simple logistics to handle one more variant, it always costs more. If you get same sales from two choices than with one, they you'd rather scrap one of them, you'll save costs and therefore make more money.

When adding any option, no matter what it is (engine, body, chassis, drivetrain, leather, heated seats, even metallic paint!), you have to be sure that you are going to add some sales or value to what you sell, otherwise you'd better not.

I hope my explanation was clear enough.

coldbivy
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:44
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danielgr wrote:
coldbivy wrote:

However, you said one thing that I keep hearing, but don't understand. If a TSX-S and base TL are priced to provide similar gross margins to Honda, why would they be worried about the TSX-S eating into TL sales? One seems just as good as the other to me.


Well, no matter what you do, adding choices and options to the customer adds costs to the company. No matter if it goes in the factory, suppliers, marketing, or in simple logistics to handle one more variant, it always costs more. If you get same sales from two choices than with one, they you'd rather scrap one of them, you'll save costs and therefore make more money.

When adding any option, no matter what it is (engine, body, chassis, drivetrain, leather, heated seats, even metallic paint!), you have to be sure that you are going to add some sales or value to what you sell, otherwise you'd better not.

I hope my explanation was clear enough.


Actually, your response is a little confusing. You answered a question that was not asked. Danielgr stated that the TSX-S would eat into TL sales with a J35. I don't agree that would be a bad thing since it would still be a unit sale.

You just answered why Honda would not produce a TSX-S at all, which may happen, but I was going on the assumption that they were going to make one regardless of whether it has a J35, J30, or K23T. Or were you attempting to state why Honda would not use the J30?

jsell
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:44
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Jeff

Seems to make sense with the information provided to us last week. The TSX base would have the 230-240 hp turboed with the small 6 producing upwards of 260-270hp hopefully wearing the TYPE-S badges. I can't see them getting upwards of 240hp with the current 2.4. Seems to make sense with the turbo. Granted if the car is a big as they say it is (very close to current TL), then the added power is a MUST. With that said, ACURA is generating some very positive buzz right now. Hopefully the cars will deliver.

V-10 NSX

98EX4cyl
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:47
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coldbivy wrote:
I agree. The car is already there. Jeff seems to now think it will be the 2.3T.

However, you said one thing that I keep hearing, but don't understand. If a TSX-S and base TL are priced to provide similar gross margins to Honda, why would they be worried about the TSX-S eating into TL sales? One seems just as good as the other to me.



Profit is profit you're right.

Daniel I love you're choice #2 but like you see choice #3 as more likely as I'm not that positive either, especially since the RDX came with a turbo 4 instead of a V6.

A TSX-S 2.3LT AWD shouldn't compete too much with a 3.5L FWD TL. Suspensions should be tuned in opposite directions and thus appeal to different consumers once they've test driven. I would expect the TSX-S suspension to be as harsh as the RDX.

Colin
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Re: Keep hope alive!!! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:49
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MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
The info on the TSX has been confusing, since it could have 4 engine choices, I4, turbo 4, diesel, and V6.


It was suggested to me several months ago that there would be 3 engines for the TSX: I4, Diesel, and V6. In this conversation, I questioned if it would be the turbo 4 from the RDX and the answer suggested not.

The reasoning suggested was we need the I4 as an entry level and to keep current TSX owners in the fold. The Diesel for reasons already stated, and the V6 to provide a V6 sedan at a reasonable price point for all our current TL owners cause the TL will grow in price and size.

When I suggested that there must have been a lot of money spent to develop the Turbo for only the RDX he replied that there were many within Honda that were disappointed with the K23. I have no idea if this was smokescreen but I have not doubts that the comment about 3 engine choices was true. SO... unless the base I4 IS the turbo, I still have my doubts.

If they do drop the Turbo I4 in the TSX, what kind of power would it have? If it was tuned for 240-260 hp, what kind of power would the (suggested) V6 have? Would they really bring out 2 sedans with HP in the same power range?

archknight
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 13:50
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Funny thing is, I don't see the Acura line ever being FWD again. If Acura is truly trying to move into the tier 1 segment and differentiate from Honda by adding SH-AWD to all their models why would a FWD variant be needed. I think with the global launch of Acura in a couple of years the TSX and Euro Accord will finally appear as two different vehicles. Both will still borrow cues from the other, but there will be differences in exterior and interior styling.

Secondly, someone always brings up a price overlap, if I go to buy a 335i and they have a 525i at the same price does that automatically make me want it more? No it doesn't I want the 335i because of it's lighter weight and handling, same can be said for any other number of models. If that's the way you shop, then more power to you but to buy a base model of one compared to a fully loaded version of another makes no sense to me. Especially since the next TL base will have SH-AWD and most likely the 3.7L as the base engine, seeing as how it's supposed main competition is the G37, (since it grew) 5-series, GS, M35/45, A6, etc.

archknight
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 14:03
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I forgot to mention that the next TL will surely have a base price in the low $40K range seeing as the outgoing Type-S is nearly $39K to start.
CarPhreakD
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 14:17
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In my magical dreams, Acura would come out with a completely redesigned DOHC V6, and drop that in the TSX and TL in 2.8 and 3.5 form. But SOHC J-series? Come on, don't you guys think that a J-series would be inadequate against the immediate competition now in the premium market? Acura is playing catchup, which means that if they are just going to be 'good enough' to beat the current crop of competitors, once those competitors release new cars in the next 3-4 years then the TSX and TL will suffer many of the same criticisms as they do today.

I'm still not completely convinced that the TSX will have a V6, but we'll wait and see. Acura has done a pretty good job keeping this (and the TL) under wraps so far.


hondacura
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 14:18
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TSX

TSX based: 2.4L turbo - 240hp/260lbs torque
TSX-D: 2.2L diesel - 220hp
TSX Type S: 3.5L 295hp/270lbs torque

archknight
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Re: Keep hope alive!!! [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 14:37
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Colin wrote:
MasterOfDaDomain wrote:
The info on the TSX has been confusing, since it could have 4 engine choices, I4, turbo 4, diesel, and V6.


It was suggested to me several months ago that there would be 3 engines for the TSX: I4, Diesel, and V6. In this conversation, I questioned if it would be the turbo 4 from the RDX and the answer suggested not.

The reasoning suggested was we need the I4 as an entry level and to keep current TSX owners in the fold. The Diesel for reasons already stated, and the V6 to provide a V6 sedan at a reasonable price point for all our current TL owners cause the TL will grow in price and size.

When I suggested that there must have been a lot of money spent to develop the Turbo for only the RDX he replied that there were many within Honda that were disappointed with the K23. I have no idea if this was smokescreen but I have not doubts that the comment about 3 engine choices was true. SO... unless the base I4 IS the turbo, I still have my doubts.

If they do drop the Turbo I4 in the TSX, what kind of power would it have? If it was tuned for 240-260 hp, what kind of power would the (suggested) V6 have? Would they really bring out 2 sedans with HP in the same power range?



Good to see ya here Colin!! IMO, it wouldn't make much since to have them in the same category so here's my take on what to expect.

TSX: 260-280hp/290+lb-ft K23T
TSx-S: 305-315hp/280 lb-ft 3.5L

TL: 330hp/310 lb-ft 3.7L V6
TL-S: 350+hp/325+lb-ft J37T

RL: 375hp/340lb-ft 4.5L V8

Seems to be the trend with all other manufacturers in the luxury segment. It goes without saying that the 3.7L hasn't seen it's full potential and the supposed 4.5L V8 has yet to be seen.

Nick GravesX
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Re: bah! turbos blow [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2008 14:53
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Varmint wrote:
RyanDL wrote:
While something like a J30 would make sense, if they're going to plop a V6 in a TSX, I would hope they'd use a J35 in a TSX (Type-S). Think about it: the weight penalty is nil since it's the same block. In fact, a J35 may be lighter since there's less metal in the block due to the larger bore.

Perhaps Shawn or someone more mechanically inclined can answer this, but does moving up displacement also require similar moves for related systems?

I mean, sure the J35 may have less metal in the block, but wouldn't that engine also move more air requiring larger intake and exhaust components? Wouldn't the J35 generate more heat, requiring a beefier cooling system... oil... fuel... transmission... etc.? While Acura could keep the mass of these components in check, doing so would probably require additional costs.



Yes. Well spotted.

A-VTEC might encourage a 3.0 engine though, to stop it getting 'too powerful' and to allow a 3.5 for the bigger cars. It could be shared with the S3000 as well.

Honestly though, I'm not gonna lose sleep over the J30/35 debate. In the words of Liam Lynch, "whatever."


 
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