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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: German GP SPOILER

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WongKN
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German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2007 17:19
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I suppose everyone is too pissed off at Honda's dismal qualy performance to even bother to post. RB qualified P14. JB in P17 (i.e. didn't even make it into Q2). After all the positive talk over friday testing. RB says traffic in Q2 was such that he didn't get an entirely good run. JB is says he's 'massively dissapointed'. LH's luck seems to be running out as he suffered a massive head-on crash into the tyre barriers, due to a tyre puncture (suspected to be caused by a loose wheel nut). At this time, he's still not cleared to race tomorrow. KR takes pole. FA takes P2 and Massa P3.

Looks like we are starting to hit the bottom of the barrel. We are a couple of races early this year compared to last year. Hopefully history repeats itself just like last year.

VTEC_Inside
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2007 18:32
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WongKN wrote:
I suppose everyone is too pissed off at Honda's dismal qualy performance to even bother to post. RB qualified P14. JB in P17 (i.e. didn't even make it into Q2). After all the positive talk over friday testing. RB says traffic in Q2 was such that he didn't get an entirely good run. JB is says he's 'massively dissapointed'. LH's luck seems to be running out as he suffered a massive head-on crash into the tyre barriers, due to a tyre puncture (suspected to be caused by a loose wheel nut). At this time, he's still not cleared to race tomorrow. KR takes pole. FA takes P2 and Massa P3.

Looks like we are starting to hit the bottom of the barrel. We are a couple of races early this year compared to last year. Hopefully history repeats itself just like last year.



I was encouraged by the practice times so I woke up early to watch the qualifying this morning.

Suffice it to say I dozed off again after Q1... sigh....

Chris David
Profile for Chris David
Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2007 20:02
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It was nice to see SA improve compared to the last two races. Did they change something on the car?
Ra005e
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2007 23:21
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lol, I was going to correct your title until I realized it is in fact the German round, no European :o

No comments on either session though :-\


Neilap
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2007 01:37
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This will be the biggest test for Hamilton this season. He does not have the advantage of changing fuel strategy either. In some ways 11th would have been better. I can see him dusting off the Toy cars, Red Bull and maybe even the Renault but then things will get pretty tough. He was simply amazing in GP2 coming up the grid. He never lost his cool and always made the best of his situation. Now he is against people that are every bit as talented as he is. Can he be mentally stronger? Cant wait.

I expected both Honda's to miss the top ten but for JB to miss the 2nd round is, well, 'massively disappointing'. Let me guess the strategy this time. Full tank, lap at a mediocre pace (at best) hope for mistakes from the others.

If nothing else I still want to see us up to Toyotas pace by years end. Lately it seems that NF and others are hinting that this is the end of the road for the 07. In other words I don't think it will be developed too much more. Whats troubling to me is the suggestion that next years car will be an evolution... shit!

Mechanic
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2007 05:25
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Yes, it is "massively disappointing," that's for sure. But the very first race of the season signaled clearly where we'd be now. The layoffs and personnel changes lopped off muscle and bone. A mid-season turnaround was always a chimera. It only goes to prove how difficult it is to compete at this level. Everything has to be in place -- design, execution, commitment, a bit of genius now and then and, perhaps most important, team chemistry.

I feel bad for the lads. Can you imagine how difficult it must be to go to work these days?

Mechanic
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2007 05:27
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Yes, it is "massively disappointing," that's for sure. But the very first race of the season signaled clearly where we'd be now. The layoffs and personnel changes lopped off muscle and bone. A mid-season turnaround was always a chimera. It only goes to prove how difficult it is to compete at this level. Everything has to be in place -- design, execution, commitment, a bit of genius now and then and, perhaps most important, team chemistry.

I feel bad for the lads. Can you imagine how difficult it must be to go to work these days?

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2007 07:57
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For those watching... the race got redflaged...

Too bad the rain killed the race, Jenson had dealed with the start of the race impressivelly... believe it or not, he had reached 4th place when crashed (it would have been 5th if Kimi had pited in a normal way)... And it was all on-track action...

Certainly he made a mistake, but he was the first out of 5 or 6 drivers (including Hamilton) to get off-track at the same place..., so there was certainly something special on that part of the track.

Anyway, for sure the Honda guys could get a point after such a disgrace and so many cars knocked out, but I don't care much in such races...

Neilap
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2007 08:17
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I really thought this race could not have gotten any worse. Then, I saw JB near the front, I think "wait he is good in the wet" and then reality strikes, again. Yeah, the race got worse. LH a lap down too. LH too made a good start.

Watch, a Toyota is going to win to top off the weekend

Neilap
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2007 10:05
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I came back are read the text below the link for the Professional Sports link here.

"Discuss Honda/Acura race cars participating in professional motorsports including: Formula 1..."

I see why there is no discussion here.

Anyway, I still think it was the most exciting race this season so far. At the same time the most disappointing. IMO this was our best chance when JB was close but we know how that ended. Barichello=unremarkable. Nothing really for us to see here.

Alonso, well, he showed why he is the two times champion and why Massa IMO will never be. He has the balls to race hard and the skill to win. Still dont like him but he is a talent, a great talent. Massa was acting like a Bitch IMO he needs to go cry to Schumi and suck his thumb for awhile. LH, man he drove really hard, its a shame the weekend started out so poorly. A podium was at least at hand.

CarPhreakD
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2007 13:43
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Neilap wrote:
I really thought this race could not have gotten any worse. Then, I saw JB near the front, I think "wait he is good in the wet" and then reality strikes, again. Yeah, the race got worse. LH a lap down too. LH too made a good start.

Watch, a Toyota is going to win to top off the weekend



Haha... a Toyota winning... that's funny

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2007 19:19
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Neilap wrote:
Whats troubling to me is the suggestion that next years car will be an evolution... shit!


You have to remember that the packaging of this years car is really advanced. It's the aero, suspension and brakes that suck. So having next years car based on this years packaging, but with different aero ect may not be too bad.

And Barrichello was unlucky. The hit he got from Rosberg would have damaged his rear diffuser which would have affected his balance massively. Too bad, but it sums up Honda's luck in motorsport this year. We keep finding new ways to f... it up :)

rayyu882
Profile for rayyu882
Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 09:24
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I bit disappointed on the race results, we'll just have to see how much progress our team will make in the remaining 7 races.

Ray

Dren
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 10:07
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Yeah, I thought Button would be fighting for that last point or two. The weather really threw things for a loop.
sjava
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 11:46
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Did you see Alonso pass on Massa? Alonso skipped the chicane and let Massa pass him so he won't get penalized but Alonso stayed behind Massa close enough to pass him again on the next corner. That was really stupid. FIA should force a racer to get behind other racer he passed by skipping chicane long enough (or a lap) so he doesn't get any advantage.
sjava
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 12:08
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I found it hard to believe that out of those 6 drivers that got off-tracked on the 1st corner, only Hamilton waited for the crane to pull the car out of the gravel. Did the other cars got damaged so bad? Liuzzi didn't appear to get any damage so why didn't the crane pull him out? Did they have to keep the engine running? What is the rule regarding this? It's quite confusing. I was so excited to see Button on P4.

Man, what a disappointing weekend. None of the races (F1, Moto, ALMS) came to Honda's way.

Neilap
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 12:46
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Its because LH kept the car running. JB hit the wall so he was out of it. I have seen the same thing happen when MS beached the car and workers pushed him back on the track.

This is definitely a tough racing season. Now, I feel we have hit the bottom. This season is finished as far as I am concerned with HondaF1. I hope I am wrong though. The good news is that they are seeking stability and more technical staff. I am guessing next year will be more of a rebuilding year. I dont think we know the 1/2 of what was going on within the team on the off season and the previous year. Obviously, we are being kept in the dark on some fronts.

This was a bizarre weekend. I don't have an issue with what Alonso did. He is a great racer and I think he showed that he is never afraid to do what it takes. I like that in a racer. Massa had more to lose and Alonso knew that.

One more thing, I hope this place does not remain as dead as its been this weekend. I am surprised its like this. I suppose its a case of having nothing good to say so saying nothing. I like racing, Honda does not have to win for it to be worth watching for me.

Sean
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 13:32
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It looked like Luizzi was airborne and then almost hit the safety car and then hit the crane. I doubt that car was OK to move on. Button hit the wall and then was I believe hit by someone else.

sjava wrote:
I found it hard to believe that out of those 6 drivers that got off-tracked on the 1st corner, only Hamilton waited for the crane to pull the car out of the gravel. Did the other cars got damaged so bad? Liuzzi didn't appear to get any damage so why didn't the crane pull him out? Did they have to keep the engine running? What is the rule regarding this? It's quite confusing. I was so excited to see Button on P4.

Man, what a disappointing weekend. None of the races (F1, Moto, ALMS) came to Honda's way.



Sean
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 13:39
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Whenever they show the fastest apex speeds in the slowest corner the 4 Hondas are always in the top 6. To me that says that they at least know what they're doing when it comes to mechanical grip.

sadlerau wrote:
Neilap wrote:
Whats troubling to me is the suggestion that next years car will be an evolution... shit!


You have to remember that the packaging of this years car is really advanced. It's the aero, suspension and brakes that suck. So having next years car based on this years packaging, but with different aero ect may not be too bad.

And Barrichello was unlucky. The hit he got from Rosberg would have damaged his rear diffuser which would have affected his balance massively. Too bad, but it sums up Honda's luck in motorsport this year. We keep finding new ways to f... it up :)



WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 22:21
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Neilap wrote:
Its because LH kept the car running. JB hit the wall so he was out of it. I have seen the same thing happen when MS beached the car and workers pushed him back on the track.

This is definitely a tough racing season. Now, I feel we have hit the bottom. This season is finished as far as I am concerned with HondaF1. I hope I am wrong though. The good news is that they are seeking stability and more technical staff. I am guessing next year will be more of a rebuilding year. I dont think we know the 1/2 of what was going on within the team on the off season and the previous year. Obviously, we are being kept in the dark on some fronts.

This was a bizarre weekend. I don't have an issue with what Alonso did. He is a great racer and I think he showed that he is never afraid to do what it takes. I like that in a racer. Massa had more to lose and Alonso knew that.

One more thing, I hope this place does not remain as dead as its been this weekend. I am surprised its like this. I suppose its a case of having nothing good to say so saying nothing. I like racing, Honda does not have to win for it to be worth watching for me.



Isn't the rule written such that if you need the help of marshalls, then you will be out of the race, irregardless of whether you kept the engine running or not. I think there's really no easy way to determine if the engine is running or not but that in an 'off', the driver must keept the engine running because the car has not engine starter, so once the engine stalls, then the car is dead. But I think I remember in race in recent years where MS went off and he got stuck and he kept gesturing the marshalls to come over to help push him out but the marshalls stayed away and Martin Brundle keep asking why MS is gesturing for the marshalls because obviously he wants to continue the race but once any marshall touches his car, then he's automatically out. However, I could swear I also remember situations where marshalls helped get a car out and the car still continued the race. Maybe someone knows.

I don't usually post when the race is on. Also I was at a dinner function when the local T.V. station telecasted the race. Annoyingly, of all the race they pick to telecast at an earlier hour, they chose this one, just when I'm not free to watch (normal telecast is at 12am but for this race, they did it at 10:30pm :( ). Anyway, I came back from my function at 12:00am, switched the thinkpad on and popped over to formula1.com to check the live timing. The race was over and the final positions were showing on the browser. I then checked this forum and was surprised that no-one bothered to post at all.

I'd agree with Neilap, that I hope that even when the times are tough, everyone will still be around rallying around the team. Actually I know there are plenty of us around, just that for some reason, no-one had the mood to post for this race. Maybe next race.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2007 22:37
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Wong the rule is you can not receive outside assistance to resume in the race, but if in the course of the marshall's assistance to move the vehicle from a dangerous position, you manage to get going, then well and good. This would include restarting the car as it is pushed by the marshalls, something I seem to remember happening to one M Schumacher once.

Regardless, if the marshalls need to move your car, and you manage to take advantage of it, your home free.

The interesting new bit of info for me was the new ruling which allows lapped cars to un-lap themselves while under a safety car. I think this is a NASCAR type rule. Very interesting because they are only released at a given time, as a form of handicaping. Something out of left field for me :)

Ra005e
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2007 05:25
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Sean wrote:

Whenever they show the fastest apex speeds in the slowest corner the 4 Hondas are always in the top 6. To me that says that they at least know what they're doing when it comes to mechanical grip.



As has been the case for years, you're right on track IMO.

There's a variety of reasons the Ra107 is sucking but suspension isn't one of them.

When LH was passing Barrichello, anyone else notice how well the Ra107 accelerates out of slow speed corners? - Especially compared to some of the other "midfielders" that LH had to get by.

Good too see that even with all the troubles this year, they've managed to preserve some of their core strengths.


Ra005e
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2007 05:30
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sadlerau wrote:
Wong the rule is you can not receive outside assistance to resume in the race, but if in the course of the marshall's assistance to move the vehicle from a dangerous position, you manage to get going, then well and good. This would include restarting the car as it is pushed by the marshalls, something I seem to remember happening to one M Schumacher once.

Regardless, if the marshalls need to move your car, and you manage to take advantage of it, your home free.

The interesting new bit of info for me was the new ruling which allows lapped cars to un-lap themselves while under a safety car. I think this is a NASCAR type rule. Very interesting because they are only released at a given time, as a form of handicaping. Something out of left field for me :)


I recall those instances and each time MS had kept the car running.

It would take some very deliberate pushing on the part of the marshals in order to restart an F1 car, which they simply wouldn't do, and even then I'm not so confident.

As far as the other cars making it back into the race along with Hamilton, even if they had been undamaged I'm not so sure they could have safely kept the engines running long enough like the Mclarens and Ferraris are able to.

Honda Dream
Profile for Honda Dream
Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2007 08:12
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Well we are back into f1 business. It looks like you are again very much interested in it even though you probably still like Super GT more. Anyway that's fine as your passion to Honda and its racing spirit is an asset hard to assess for any discussion board.
I will go to Hungarian GP in August and you can count on photos and report. Hopefully I will bring as much luck to Honda as I did last time watching live Jenson's first and still the only f1 win of Honda's 3rd era.

Neilap
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2007 19:31
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Question. Is it the the Honda drivers, or is it JB? I know JB has always been near or at the top to that stat just because of his driving style. He carries much more speed through the apex and moderates the throttle. While RB is more point and shoot.
sadlerau
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2007 22:01
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sadlerau wrote:
Wong the rule is you can not receive outside assistance to resume in the race, but if in the course of the marshall's assistance to move the vehicle from a dangerous position, you manage to get going, then well and good. This would include restarting the car as it is pushed by the marshalls, something I seem to remember happening to one M Schumacher once.

Regardless, if the marshalls need to move your car, and you manage to take advantage of it, your home free.

The interesting new bit of info for me was the new ruling which allows lapped cars to un-lap themselves while under a safety car. I think this is a NASCAR type rule. Very interesting because they are only released at a given time, as a form of handicaping. Something out of left field for me :)



Hate to quote myself, especially to admit I'm wrong Wong, but apparently the Stewards did make a boo boo with Hamilton.

According to another forum, namely Autosport, it is in the general regulations of motorsport that a crane can only be used on an abandoned vehicle!! When you think about it, it is not normally considered safe practice to lift things with a crane with a person in the article being lifted [I'm thinking industrial situations]. Thus, they should not have lifted the Mac while Hamilton was in the car.

Now I wonder if we will get a clarification from the FIA about this? I bet if it had been a Red Bull, Honda or Toyota, they would not have allowed the car to continue. Or am I becoming too cynical in my dottage?

Neilap
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-25-2007 02:29
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No sir, I dont believe you are too cynical at all. In fact I believe it was JPM that had the same issue as MS did where they both got beached with the motor running. Guess who was pushed back into the race and who was not. In fact when MS was beached a fan also ran out to help!!

Maybe we can find it on youtube. I will search.

rayyu882
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Re: German GP - live thread    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-25-2007 06:49
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Neilap wrote:
No sir, I dont believe you are too cynical at all. In fact I believe it was JPM that had the same issue as MS did where they both got beached with the motor running. Guess who was pushed back into the race and who was not. In fact when MS was beached a fan also ran out to help!!

Maybe we can find it on youtube. I will search.




If I remember correctly, that should be European GP 2003, when MS and JPM tango and MS ended up in the gravel. Michael kept the engine running and asked for a push, then the corner workers pushed MS away.

Later on that procedure approved by the FIA and it's legal.

Ray

Sean
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-25-2007 12:55
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Neilap wrote:
Question. Is it the the Honda drivers, or is it JB? I know JB has always been near or at the top to that stat just because of his driving style. He carries much more speed through the apex and moderates the throttle. While RB is more point and shoot.


In my opinion it's the car. I do think JB is a much smoother driver than most but every single time I've seen that stat in the last couple of years all the Hondas are always at the top. And it always sticks out to me because it's generally the only piece of good news I come away with from whatever session I'm watching. I don't recall ever hearing the SPEED commentators mention it though. It could just be this stat in my head that's making me think it but it always seems to me that Honda does better at tracks or in sectors with slower speed corners.

Ra005e
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Re: German GP SPOILER    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-26-2007 00:42
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Sean wrote:
Neilap wrote:
Question. Is it the the Honda drivers, or is it JB? I know JB has always been near or at the top to that stat just because of his driving style. He carries much more speed through the apex and moderates the throttle. While RB is more point and shoot.


In my opinion it's the car. I do think JB is a much smoother driver than most but every single time I've seen that stat in the last couple of years all the Hondas are always at the top. And it always sticks out to me because it's generally the only piece of good news I come away with from whatever session I'm watching. I don't recall ever hearing the SPEED commentators mention it though. It could just be this stat in my head that's making me think it but it always seems to me that Honda does better at tracks or in sectors with slower speed corners.


Right on there IMO Sean.

The most recent ex. would of course be the German/European GP where the fastest apex speeds for turn 6 where topped by the two Super Aguris and then the two Hondas :)

If I remember correctly that was during the GP itself.


 
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