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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid

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Chris David
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Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2007 11:54
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On the Yahoo F1 site there's a article on Chris Klein. He casually mentions Honda completely screwed up by not properly calibrating their wind tunnel, thus making all their test data invalid.

"Klien acknowledged, however, that Brackley based Honda is far from its goal of winning with the uncompetitive RA107.

Our biggest problem is the aero," he explained. "The calibration of our wind tunnel was incorrect - the data we collected did not correlate with the data obtained on the track. It has set us back quite a lot and it will not now be easy to catch up.""

Uniflogger
Profile for Uniflogger
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2007 17:36
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Please explain to me how this could happen.

Invest all this money for incorrect data? I shake my head thinking about it.

It's an embarrassment.


floundericiousMI
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Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2007 18:02
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Uniflogger wrote:
Please explain to me how this could happen.

Invest all this money for incorrect data? I shake my head thinking about it.

It's an embarrassment.




People are involved... people make mistakes... even the best

Hell...how did a Lockheed group and a NASA group get their wires so crossed that one was using metric units, the other 'english' units...and the result was a $1Billion spacecraft slamming into Mars?! Some of the best and brightest and some of the best tools...but somewhere someone missed something and it never got caught.

That's the human factor, you never escape it...

It IS an embarassment...so what now? Give up? Get mad? Work to fix it?

Which would you choose if you'd made the mistake? I'd choose to go fix it and then NEVER FORGET IT.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2007 18:22
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They were in a rush to use their investment and didn't take the time to set it up properly. My guess anyway. These things happen all the time in a lot of industries. They wanted to take shortcuts in the present but ended up worse off in the long run. At least the team knows what was wrong and should be good to go now.
sadlerau1
Profile for sadlerau1
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2007 18:48
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Dren wrote:
They were in a rush to use their investment and didn't take the time to set it up properly. My guess anyway. These things happen all the time in a lot of industries. They wanted to take shortcuts in the present but ended up worse off in the long run. At least the team knows what was wrong and should be good to go now.



Maybe, maybe not.

Don't forget the aero problem was there before the new tunnel was commissioned. Is it the same problem? Apparently.

The rushing of the tunnel calibration was criminal, because everyone in the industry was saying it would takes months, even a year, but HF1 boffins commissioned it in weeks!!?

Hopefully they will have learnt from their mistakes, but I honestly believe this year is a write-off :( Oh the embarresment of being beaten by Toyota!

Dren
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Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2007 19:00
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I think they had some aero issues with the front of the car last year, but it was stable and they were able to work with the car. The car this year just sucks. I think they will be a lot better off with the windtunnel setup propperly.
Isamu77
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Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2007 22:32
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Flounder which company used which metric?
HONDA FANATIC
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Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 02:25
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This years car is much worse than what they had last year. proof is super aguri. They completely screwed up the design and its an undriveable car. I wonder why they did not sense that wind tunnel is giving wrong results during winter testing. I mean they did lots of testing and whitihin one month, lets say by Jan they couldve known that what they get at track is 180 degrees out of phase. Still they have 2 months for correction till opening GP and even now they cant sort this out. This year is I guess definitely a write off. I am afraid that with so many problems at hand, with current car, how can they produce a quick car for start of next season.... So basically in theory we are derailed for two years. 2009 may be better however with Honda, no two years can be related to each other. Each year its like a boolean operation, either they r FAST or NOT. (I am excluding that they usually close the gap a bit to front runners in last 4-5 races or so, thats not an incredible acheievement because by then teams concentrate on next years cars unless championship is a nail biter).

Ra005e
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Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 02:32
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sadlerau wrote:
Dren wrote:
They were in a rush to use their investment and didn't take the time to set it up properly. My guess anyway. These things happen all the time in a lot of industries. They wanted to take shortcuts in the present but ended up worse off in the long run. At least the team knows what was wrong and should be good to go now.



Maybe, maybe not.

Don't forget the aero problem was there before the new tunnel was commissioned. Is it the same problem? Apparently.

The rushing of the tunnel calibration was criminal, because everyone in the industry was saying it would takes months, even a year, but HF1 boffins commissioned it in weeks!!?

Hopefully they will have learnt from their mistakes, but I honestly believe this year is a write-off :( Oh the embarresment of being beaten by Toyota!


If you're referring to HF1's "boffins"(WTF) taking less time to calibrate the 2nd 100% wind tunnel than the 1st I don't see how that's criminal since one would tend to learn from the first experience and streamline the process a bit.
If you feel they rushed things the first time around I see what you mean but in either case it comes down to pushing the envelope and learning from any mistakes that are made. I can respect that :)

I remember Jaguar had a similar problem with the calibration of the tunnel they were using back in '01 or '02.

Plus, remember that Geoff Willis and crew managed to produce one of the most pig-like F1 cars, from an aerodynamic perspective, in history with the BAR 007. That was using a properly calibrated 50% wind tunnel so if the new tunnel(s) results were off considerably it makes the current performance even more impressive and shows there truly is a lot of potential in the package (as we all knew).

Neilap
Profile for Neilap
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 04:05
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Ditto!!

I've seen Surgeons make mistakes, so why is it so unbelieveable that Honda could make one?

I wonder how these 'superstar engineers' got their reputations? I think they came up the same way as the 'no name' ones at Honda. As soon as they deliver something unbelievable they will be granted with this title.

The Nick Fry debate gets old too. He is a part of the team. I dont see the point in singling him out and basing him. It seems it makes us feel better to have an individual to blame instead of Honda as a whole. Personally I like how open the team is to the press and the public. They are not giving away secrets. They are stating facts and intent; like I said its better than understating just to save face if your ambitions are not realized.

BMW did that. Now that they have inherited the 3rd place they are speaking much more confidently of their intentions and how well they want to perform this year. I think that is bullsh!t. They knew where they wanted to be. They saw how fast their car was and still they acted clueless. Its almost like reverse psychology. That aint modesty is covering their asses so they dont look as such when it hits the fan.

Oh and as for NF comparing us to Renault he is dead on! Renault evolved last year car which was a championship car. Naturally it will be better than us if we are running into the same issues. Even if Honda had done the same with an evolution, the car would more than likely be slower than the Renault.
Maclaren is back at the pointed end because they took chances with their designs. It cost them for a few years. It even cost them with a design that never saw a race, however, thats what has to be done to break new ground. The issue is getting it right.

I feel like I am watching cancer grow. Most comments are so destructive nothing constructive.

SonyFever
Profile for SonyFever
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 04:20
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The report from Autosport didn't report this part from the Thursday press release,

"Q: So was the basic problem a wrongly calibrated wind tunnel?
RB: No, no, but I think the tunnel is too new for us anyway. We are discovering that. Iím not saying it was wrongly calibrated, I think we had to have a better understanding of what it was giving us but right now itís giving us support, so thatís why I can say that I am confident that we can sort out the problem."


Neilap
Profile for Neilap
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 04:27
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Q. So was the basic problem a wrongly calibrated wind tunnel?

RB: No, no, but I think the tunnel is too new for us anyway. We are discovering that. I'm not saying it was wrongly calibrated, I think we had to have a better understanding of what it was giving us but right now it's giving us support, so that's why I can say that I am confident that we can sort out the problem


I dont know who is correct!

Did Honda ever say they were building a B car? I dont think so, if I remember they said there would be no single soultion but many small ones.

SonyFever
Profile for SonyFever
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 05:44
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Well I don't need to explain it coz I know you know where RA107-B comes from. It's from the media, like Autosport. They quoted source saying the Canadian package is supposely a bigger-than-ever updated package.

Quote:
"The Japanese manufacturer are pinning hopes of a revival this season on a heavily revamped RA107 - which sources suggest will be a B-spec car in all but name."

Using it is mostly for convenience sake and it wouldn't hurt. We don't need to get official approval on this. Besdies, have Honda ever told us how bad they were in pre-season testing?



SonyFever
Profile for SonyFever
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 05:46
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Well, I don't agree about the honesty. Nakamoto is honest in revealing the problems with the cars. That's postivie. Nick Fry has a record of talking things up while the team do not really deliver. And he always tells us the truth after we all learn what the real performance of the car is, doesn't he?

F1 is about strategy. There is nothing wrong in BMW's approach. Everyone, especially Honda, should know that testing doesn't totally refelect the true potential of each team. Why would someone brag about win win win in F1? Only newcomers, and many years Toyota, talk like that to comfort their sponsors/board members. You see, if you wan to attack BMW's attitude, then Ferrari had the same conservative attitude when Schumi was there. Let the result speak, if you win no one will not notice, if you perform badly, like now, you will find it difficult to find your cars get less and less attention, of course unless you have elephant ears on the car. (That sounds like sacarsm but I don't mean it. It's my personal experience as I find it harder now to find good pictures of RA107 on Sutton.)

Renault was a winning car, but didn't Nick Fry say Honda was full of potential last year? They had such a consistently fast car RA106 that was just behind Renault and Ferrari. So we should have the potential to be right behind Renault, not all the way down to where BAR007 was. And the revolution explanation... there are many way to interpret it. You can say it's Honda's spirit, keep on trying and learning. You can say Honda challenged themselves and didn't push RA106B out for a quick fix even though they knew they were in troubled very early. But I take no consolidation in thinking like that. Honda has gone backwards badly twice, with different technical leaderships. 006-007 and now RA106-RA107. And aero keeps on being one source of problems for how many years. For me, these justify the questions people put on the management and the technical department.

In short, Nick Fry doesn't need to talk about Renault or saying the team is young and inexperienced. He carries the image of HondaF1 and he talks like a child. And I don't think these talks by Nick Fry reflects Honda's attitude towards racing. I have no question about the never-give-up attitude the team has shown for so many years. But I also think this is a great opportunity for Honda to really think deep about what these ups and downs in recent years. I know this talk about Nick Fry's role is kind of old. But among the Honda people that talk to the media, it's not difficult to see who does the worst job.

In hindsight, Honda chose a bad timing to introuce the revolution. The tyres are changed, the engine is freezed (so no more power gain to offset the aero inefficiency), and the new tunnel has just started operating. Too many variables and unfortunately they did not handle them well. I speak more destructively probably because I am more conservative. Still I look forward to the improvements of the team. After all, the only way, at least for this year, is up up up.

Neilap
Profile for Neilap
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 06:57
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I understand your stance. ...dont necessarily agree but I understand.

Fry is promoting the team. Its part of what he does. He said that the aim was to win races. I dont see anything wrong with that. If he said we are going to win races that would be silly and ignorant. They state exactly what their expectations are. I feel its good for the fans. The people who hate us can use our failures are ammunition but our successes IMO will be even greater because we said what we meant and meant and then did it. I dont believe in mixing words.
Most believe in letting the results speak for themselves but imo it reduces the spectacle for people like me. I want to know everything I can about the team if it means they have to eat humble pie then so be it. Honda set a challenge to its drivers and engineers... to the entire company. They put pressure on themselves. Its not failure that I find disappointing its dishonesty. BMW lie about their intent. Ferrari knew they were on top but they would just say they were not taking anything for granted.

Fry did not lie to anyone. He spoke of what he knew. When he was wrong he admitted it publicly.

On a personal note I dont care about him at all. If the ditch him it means nothing to me. I dont want Honda to become like BMW thats all. I like the openness.

soniccar
Profile for soniccar
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 09:12
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It was JPL, right?
WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 11:27
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As one of the first people who wrote 'anti-Fry' posts, my point of view is that there are 2 ways to honesty and to saying things. Nakamoto's approach for e.g. was just plain infor and he was honest, down to earth, without any bullshit. Even when he ventures to make a prediction of how the car will fare, for e.g. he thinks we can catch Renault within a few race, we can see that it is his honest opinion and he has some factual basis to it.

My original problem with Nick Fry was how he keeps saying 'we fancy our chances' or 'we think we can win this race', and it was clear that we were sucking big time at that period. This was my biggest frustration with that fellow. We would be racing with the minnows in one race and suddenly Nick will say how he thinks we will be fighting for the win in the next race.

The other thing is about information. During the fuel tank set-up, I really got concerned when Nick Fry was practically telling everyone his defence plan even before the hearing at the FIA kangaroo court. Maybe it wouldn't have made any difference anyway but I for one thinks its silly to show your card before the final crucial confrontation. But Nick was telling everyone how he's got proof that every other team was using the same fuel tank and how every other team are giving him support and all those crucial stuff. Meanwhile the bastards in the FIA were of course quietly sitting back and soaking all those crucial infor in, developed a plan to circumvent those facts and came out with what was clearly a set-up. I mean, to me at least, it was so clear. Nick Big Mouth was telling everyone how he can show that Honda has telemetry data that shows that they never went below the minimum weight and the FIA just disregarded that and say that since they COULD HAVE, therefore they are guilty.

So being honest and giving infor is one thing. But which moron will tell the other guy all the cards he has in a poker game ?

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 11:53
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Give Nick some credit Wong...If it wasn't for him there would be 456245 posts fewer in this section =)
floundericiousMI
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Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 12:50
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Isamu77 wrote:
Flounder which company used which metric?


(CNN) -- NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.


Apologies...the probe wasn't $1Billion... they launched it on a Delta II (they never book the price of the launch vehicle, but call that $100M).

So it was ~$250M loss plus associated costs.. the biggest part of the mistake was so stupid...they sent NUMBERS WITHOUT UNITS...

That's like telling a waiter: "I'd like two....and a side of....with a .... to drink"

What do you think you'd get? What was damning about the incident was: the receiver *presumed* the units and didn't ask...and nobody went back and fact checked the specs to make sure.

floundericiousMI
Profile for floundericiousMI
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 13:03
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HONDA FANATIC wrote:
Each year its like a boolean operation, either they r FAST or NOT.



LOL

It DOES seem that way sometimes, doesn't it?

Neilap
Profile for Neilap
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2007 21:29
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Each time I venture off to some of the other links on this site I come back here with a new appreciation for the people on this forum.
After reading some of the replies to the posted pics of the new Accord I realize that differing opinions are one thing but my God some folks... anyway.

True NF has been a big talking point here. I am probably the only person who thinks he is the least of our issues. Anyway, I think the team on a whole claims to be headed in the right direction. Maybe that includes getting rid of Fry in the long run, maybe not. Either way at least everyone here is looking forward to the same thing and are not just here to talk because this is the only place they get listened to.

Ra005e
Profile for Ra005e
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-12-2007 03:15
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floundericiousMI wrote:
Isamu77 wrote:
Flounder which company used which metric?


(CNN) -- NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.


Apologies...the probe wasn't $1Billion... they launched it on a Delta II (they never book the price of the launch vehicle, but call that $100M).

So it was ~$250M loss plus associated costs.. the biggest part of the mistake was so stupid...they sent NUMBERS WITHOUT UNITS...

That's like telling a waiter: "I'd like two....and a side of....with a .... to drink"

What do you think you'd get? What was damning about the incident was: the receiver *presumed* the units and didn't ask...and nobody went back and fact checked the specs to make sure.


Sounds like something I would do. You should all be thankful I don't have an important job ;D

Ra005e
Profile for Ra005e
Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-12-2007 03:42
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Neilap wrote:


The Nick Fry debate gets old too. He is a part of the team. I dont see the point in singling him out and basing him. It seems it makes us feel better to have an individual to blame instead of Honda as a whole. Personally I like how open the team is to the press and the public. They are not giving away secrets. They are stating facts and intent; like I said its better than understating just to save face if your ambitions are not realized.



I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with you there. I too like the open style as long as it doesn't help the competition which NF and, more importantly, those around him know better than to do.

On the other hand, IMO there's nothing wrong with playing your cards close to your chest sometimes - except that it might starve us fanboys (meant w/ respect) for updates.
Neilap wrote:


Oh and as for NF comparing us to Renault he is dead on! Renault evolved last year car which was a championship car. Naturally it will be better than us if we are running into the same issues. Even if Honda had done the same with an evolution, the car would more than likely be slower than the Renault.
Maclaren is back at the pointed end because they took chances with their designs. It cost them for a few years. It even cost them with a design that never saw a race, however, thats what has to be done to break new ground. The issue is getting it right.



I was going to make the same point myself about McLaren and I agree that "breaking new ground" was the smarter route, at least in theory.

I think Renault and HF1 may in fact be suffering some of the same issues but I really do think it's a bit of an apples & oranges situation.
Let's assume both are suffering from how the tires react with their cars both mechanically and aerodynamically. Hopefully (at least in HF1's case) those problems will be sorted soon.
That still leaves the aero problems the Ra107 has which is very different from Renault who, in comparison to other top teams, may not be the areo powerhouse they were the last few seasons but still have a solid base to work with that they will either improve a lot throughout this season or ditch for '08.

Ra005e
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Re: Wind tunnel testing was invalid    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-12-2007 03:53
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Ra005e wrote:

...I too like the open style as long as it doesn't help the competition which NF and, more importantly, those around him know better than to do.


(lol @ quoting myself)

I should have been more clear, I don't mean to imply that Fry doesn't have a big mouth or that he hasn't revealed things that might otherwise have been better kept under wraps for a while.
I was referring more to the technical struggles and/or goings-on of the team being either kept a secret or described in a vague manner, as it should be in most cases.


 
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