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  TOV News > Vote in our Acura Advanced Sports Car Concept Polls > > Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER

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R-Z
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This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-12-2007 18:40
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There is no shame in having a front engine sports car. We are talking like this is something that "waters down" a vehicle. What about: Aston Martin? Ferrari 599 GTB or the 612 Scaglitti? Panoz? Nissan Skyline? etc…

I have 100% confidence that Acura will deliver us a vehicle that will dance freely on the track with any mid and front engine vehicle. This is not the new NSX, this is the vehicle that is going to raise the bar in the same fashion the NSX did when it was first introduced.

Remember, Ferrari laughed at the notion that a Japanese car company could make a competitive sports car. Then Acura/Honda gave the world the NSX. I didn't see any grins after that.

I am looking forward to this V-10 beast to come into the market with the balance, performance, precision, refinement, and reliability that will once again raise the bar in its segment.

RyanDL
Profile for RyanDL
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-12-2007 21:17
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R-Z wrote:
What about: Aston Martin? Ferrari 599 GTB or the 612 Scaglitti? Panoz? Nissan Skyline? etc…


Each of these cars you mention are GT-type cars, which are NOT true sports cars. While these are great cruising vehicles with lots of sporting characteristics, they would be put to shame by something like a Carerra GT or F430.

The NSX is a pure sports car. The ASCC, in its current guise, is not.

Ryan

HONDAxACURA
Profile for HONDAxACURA
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-12-2007 22:07
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Honda better get this right. I want to see the Japan Super GT NSX team win 1st place. So far, the 4wd Skyline and supra has beaten the expensive NSX.
Acura Type S'in
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Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-12-2007 22:29
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RyanDL wrote:
R-Z wrote:
What about: Aston Martin? Ferrari 599 GTB or the 612 Scaglitti? Panoz? Nissan Skyline? etc…


Each of these cars you mention are GT-type cars, which are NOT true sports cars. While these are great cruising vehicles with lots of sporting characteristics, they would be put to shame by something like a Carerra GT or F430.

The NSX is a pure sports car. The ASCC, in its current guise, is not.

Ryan


Although I agree with you entirely at this point........who knows how Acura's elite Sh-AWD system actually closes that performance gap or actually blurs the lines in defining the first front mid engined car to out perform those types..............So on paper it's a dissappointing looking configuration for us hard core drivers but in application it could be quite a bar lifting and line blurring vehicle.........I'll reserve verdict till it drops.

roninsi02
Profile for roninsi02
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-12-2007 23:19
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Its gonna be a porker. V10 + SH-awd is gonna make it at least 3500+ lbs. I would not be surprised to see a 4k AASC. Honda took too damn long to do a thing about the NSX. Its pretty sad how Honda ALWAYS drops the ball on sports cars in the long run. They hit a home run and talk about how great that single homer was 10-15 years later. IMO Honda has lost its spirit and are now simply Toyota Mini.

Acura Type S'in wrote:
RyanDL wrote:
R-Z wrote:
What about: Aston Martin? Ferrari 599 GTB or the 612 Scaglitti? Panoz? Nissan Skyline? etc…


Each of these cars you mention are GT-type cars, which are NOT true sports cars. While these are great cruising vehicles with lots of sporting characteristics, they would be put to shame by something like a Carerra GT or F430.

The NSX is a pure sports car. The ASCC, in its current guise, is not.

Ryan


Although I agree with you entirely at this point........who knows how Acura's elite Sh-AWD system actually closes that performance gap or actually blurs the lines in defining the first front mid engined car to out perform those types..............So on paper it's a dissappointing looking configuration for us hard core drivers but in application it could be quite a bar lifting and line blurring vehicle.........I'll reserve verdict till it drops.


CiaoVA
Profile for CiaoVA
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-12-2007 23:26
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R-Z wrote:
There is no shame in having a front engine sports car. We are talking like this is something that "waters down" a vehicle. What about: Aston Martin? Ferrari 599 GTB or the 612 Scaglitti? Panoz? Nissan Skyline? etc…

I have 100% confidence that Acura will deliver us a vehicle that will dance freely on the track with any mid and front engine vehicle. This is not the new NSX, this is the vehicle that is going to raise the bar in the same fashion the NSX did when it was first introduced.

Remember, Ferrari laughed at the notion that a Japanese car company could make a competitive sports car. Then Acura/Honda gave the world the NSX. I didn't see any grins after that.

I am looking forward to this V-10 beast to come into the market with the balance, performance, precision, refinement, and reliability that will once again raise the bar in its segment.



Exactly our sentiments. GO HONDA !!!

BIG-JG
Profile for BIG-JG
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-13-2007 00:53
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Honda needs a good FR platform (or FR base AWD). And this is perfect... instead of spending tons of money on one car. They can modify this platform to produce many different vehicles... and if they made it MR ... only one car can benefit form it..... Not wise... like the last NSX... beside the fact that it is not a sales success... none of the Honda cars even benefit form the platform. Not even the engine. look at Nissan’s FM platform... The Z, G35, M35/45, FX35/45 and now the GT-R, all bases off form a true sports car platform. Look at the sales success. Not to mention it upscale the entire brand. All those with minimal amount of spending… Acura need to share fewer platforms with Honda... look at Acura… TL is a fancier accord, RL is a bigger accord, RDX is CRV, RSX is now the Civic, TSX is Japanese Accord, and the old MDX is Odyssey. Honda’s platform (not engine) is design with more economy in mind then performance (not to say it doesn’t have any). And this is what Honda came up with. An all new platform which eventually the entire Acura brand should base off form, (I wish & hope)……or else Acura will always be view as a more expansive Honda(entry level luxury). And who say FR can’t be sports car…. Supra, Z, Skyline, M3, they are all pure sports car but not super cars. But why should Honda build a super car just for fan boys who will never even own one… brand name has a lot to do with it. If Kia build a 60k car… would it sell??? So before Acura establish it self as a tier 1 luxury car maker. Not many will want a 100k Acura… People are like that…
roninsi02
Profile for roninsi02
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-13-2007 10:16
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A pure sports car should not be based off a luxury sedan. If it is then it is comprimised to begin with. The NSX and S2000 are not comprimised with having to modify anything to "fit" other cars. If Honda wants to save money spread the engines around in detuned versions, dont spread the chassis around. There is no way they can make the car light weight if it also has to be the chassis for TL/RLs of the future. Honda is good at engineering but they arent miracle workers.

BIG-JG wrote:
Honda needs a good FR platform (or FR base AWD). And this is perfect... instead of spending tons of money on one car. They can modify this platform to produce many different vehicles... and if they made it MR ... only one car can benefit form it..... Not wise... like the last NSX... beside the fact that it is not a sales success... none of the Honda cars even benefit form the platform. Not even the engine. look at Nissan’s FM platform... The Z, G35, M35/45, FX35/45 and now the GT-R, all bases off form a true sports car platform. Look at the sales success. Not to mention it upscale the entire brand. All those with minimal amount of spending… Acura need to share fewer platforms with Honda... look at Acura… TL is a fancier accord, RL is a bigger accord, RDX is CRV, RSX is now the Civic, TSX is Japanese Accord, and the old MDX is Odyssey. Honda’s platform (not engine) is design with more economy in mind then performance (not to say it doesn’t have any). And this is what Honda came up with. An all new platform which eventually the entire Acura brand should base off form, (I wish & hope)……or else Acura will always be view as a more expansive Honda(entry level luxury). And who say FR can’t be sports car…. Supra, Z, Skyline, M3, they are all pure sports car but not super cars. But why should Honda build a super car just for fan boys who will never even own one… brand name has a lot to do with it. If Kia build a 60k car… would it sell??? So before Acura establish it self as a tier 1 luxury car maker. Not many will want a 100k Acura… People are like that…

BIG-JG
Profile for BIG-JG
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-13-2007 15:10
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The 1st platform is not compromised in any way because its soul purpose is to be the best spots car out there. It’s the sedan that base off it that’s compromised. But that’s good because that’s a compromise in a good way. I will buy a RL that base its platform off form one of the best sports car in the world. Would you? You can modify a platform in many ways. Make it longer, wider. Its performance spec may only be half of the original. But the performance is still there. Instead of making accord’s platform better, they can now detune the ASCC platform and get a much better result. It’s easier to go down then to go up. And that is the smart way. And Honda is the smart company. Why not make a world class sports you can benefit form it. i think people who want honda to build a MR supercar is kind selfish. because thay only want honda to build what they like but not what's best for honda or acura as a brand.
sajicd
Profile for sajicd
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-14-2007 13:20
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RyanDL wrote:
R-Z wrote:
What about: Aston Martin? Ferrari 599 GTB or the 612 Scaglitti? Panoz? Nissan Skyline? etc…


Each of these cars you mention are GT-type cars, which are NOT true sports cars. While these are great cruising vehicles with lots of sporting characteristics, they would be put to shame by something like a Carerra GT or F430.

The NSX is a pure sports car. The ASCC, in its current guise, is not.

Ryan



Actually the 599 alhtough a GT car runs circles around the F430 on a track. indeed a January 2007 issue of Motor Trend had it going around a track full 1.5 seconds faster then the F430. So if Acura comes out with the ASC that is better than that and has the everyday drivability and reliability of a civic, which im sure they will.... I WANT ONE.

My only beef remains with the styling as it just doesnt do it for me in its current guise. And for 100K it better be a stunner.

D

R-Z
Profile for R-Z
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2007 12:19
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Have you ever seen podium of a ALMS GT1 race? If not, I think you will be a little shocked that there are no mid-engine platforms. Sorry, but this vehicle is going to work, and it is going to work well. As I said before, it will set a new standard. It has to because you know it will not go through an MMC for another 15 years!
Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2007 13:20
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R-Z wrote:
Have you ever seen podium of a ALMS GT1 race? If not, I think you will be a little shocked that there are no mid-engine platforms.

There were only two cars that competed in GT1 class over the season (Aston Martin and Corvette), and neither was mid-engined. As a result, you're not going to see any podium finishes for mid-engined cars.

That said, why didn't Acura participate in this class instead of going to "midengined" LMP2? Would be a good question to ask them.

R-Z
Profile for R-Z
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2007 13:38
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As they work to elevate the brand, I would be shocked if they didn't. However, they first have to produce the car. In addition, I can see them going to LMP1 once the V10 is available. They entered LMP2 because they already had the motor, and they are looking to expand the brand to Europe. There is no better way to introduce your brand than to strut your stuff within a respected racing program.
It is a great time.

Wizard wrote:
R-Z wrote:
Have you ever seen podium of a ALMS GT1 race? If not, I think you will be a little shocked that there are no mid-engine platforms.

There were only two cars that competed in GT1 class over the season (Aston Martin and Corvette), and neither was mid-engined. As a result, you're not going to see any podium finishes for mid-engined cars.

That said, why didn't Acura participate in this class instead of going to "midengined" LMP2? Would be a good question to ask them.




Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2007 15:52
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The normally aspirated Acura 3.4-liter V8 to be used in LMP2 is actually a brand new engine. LMP1 requires 6.0-liter engine (normally aspirated) and AFAIK the chassis isn’t based off a production vehicle. The AASC design direction is more along the lines of GT1 class (in which Chevrolet with its Corvette and Aston Martin compete) than either LMP1 or LMP2. In fact, the LM (P1 and P2) chassis, like those in F1 and IRL, are represented better in a mid-engine performance car like the NSX.

Acura has suggested that it will eventually tread into LMP1 class too (meaning, that they will develop a normally aspirated 6.0-liter or, perhaps, 4.0-liter turbo charged motor to go with it).

Speaking of Honda/Acura racing effort in…
Le Mans
Formula 1
IRL

Nothing would have represented the brand better than an NSX successor.
.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2007 17:57
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I seriously beg to differ.

The Nissan FM platform is seriously compromised as a sporting platform, in no small part because it has to be able to meet the needs of sedans, luxo coupes, SUVs, etc.

The number one issue is its weight. There is no reason in the world that the 350Z, with a lightweight aluminum V6 and only two seats, should weigh in at 3300+ lbs. It isn't like this is some refined, luxurious car with lots of sound deadening and features to add weight. It is raw and hard edged. By comparison, the 2+2 Porsche 911 starts almost 300 lbs lighter than a 350Z. There's more than one reason for that, but you are starting to see the point I hope.

Additional compromises are the non-adjustable suspension on the FM platform (non-adjustable suspensions are stronger, but they don't allow you the flexibility to dial in the car, as you might have on something like, oh, an S2000 or NSX).

As for the whole mid vs. front - here it is plain and simple. For maximum performance (acceleration, braking, cornering), mid-engine will always be better than front engine because of weight distribution. You simply can't argue that. You can build a stunning front engine car (see Honda S2000 for something close to home), but if you're going to build an exotic to compete with the best, you only have one choice in terms of chassis config.

To do otherwise is a big compromise and a serious insult to the NSX's roots.

SC

BIG-JG wrote:
The 1st platform is not compromised in any way because its soul purpose is to be the best spots car out there. It’s the sedan that base off it that’s compromised. But that’s good because that’s a compromise in a good way. I will buy a RL that base its platform off form one of the best sports car in the world. Would you? You can modify a platform in many ways. Make it longer, wider. Its performance spec may only be half of the original. But the performance is still there. Instead of making accord’s platform better, they can now detune the ASCC platform and get a much better result. It’s easier to go down then to go up. And that is the smart way. And Honda is the smart company. Why not make a world class sports you can benefit form it. i think people who want honda to build a MR supercar is kind selfish. because thay only want honda to build what they like but not what's best for honda or acura as a brand.


R-Z
Profile for R-Z
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2007 18:20
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Wizard wrote:
The normally aspirated Acura 3.4-liter V8 to be used in LMP2 is actually a brand new engine. LMP1 requires 6.0-liter engine (normally aspirated) and AFAIK the chassis isn’t based off a production vehicle. The AASC design direction is more along the lines of GT1 class (in which Chevrolet with its Corvette and Aston Martin compete) than either LMP1 or LMP2. In fact, the LM (P1 and P2) chassis, like those in F1 and IRL, are represented better in a mid-engine performance car like the NSX.

Acura has suggested that it will eventually tread into LMP1 class too (meaning, that they will develop a normally aspirated 6.0-liter or, perhaps, 4.0-liter turbo charged motor to go with it).

Speaking of Honda/Acura racing effort in…
Le Mans
Formula 1
IRL

Nothing would have represented the brand better than an NSX successor.
.



Honda/Acura actually did have the motors. The LMP2 motor is just a re-stroked IRL motor, and the LMP1 engine will probably be a re-stroked V10. The stampings are the same, but the internals are certainly different. Look-out GT-1 class. There is going to be some exciting racing coming up…

BIG-JG
Profile for BIG-JG
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2007 21:50
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notyper wrote:
I seriously beg to differ.

The Nissan FM platform is seriously compromised as a sporting platform, in no small part because it has to be able to meet the needs of sedans, luxo coupes, SUVs, etc.

The number one issue is its weight. There is no reason in the world that the 350Z, with a lightweight aluminum V6 and only two seats, should weigh in at 3300+ lbs. It isn't like this is some refined, luxurious car with lots of sound deadening and features to add weight. It is raw and hard edged. By comparison, the 2+2 Porsche 911 starts almost 300 lbs lighter than a 350Z. There's more than one reason for that, but you are starting to see the point I hope.

Additional compromises are the non-adjustable suspension on the FM platform (non-adjustable suspensions are stronger, but they don't allow you the flexibility to dial in the car, as you might have on something like, oh, an S2000 or NSX).

As for the whole mid vs. front - here it is plain and simple. For maximum performance (acceleration, braking, cornering), mid-engine will always be better than front engine because of weight distribution. You simply can't argue that. You can build a stunning front engine car (see Honda S2000 for something close to home), but if you're going to build an exotic to compete with the best, you only have one choice in terms of chassis config.

To do otherwise is a big compromise and a serious insult to the NSX's roots.

SC




this car is not a super car and it's definitely not the next gen NSX.. it replace NSX as Honda’s flag ship, and that’s yet. It’s a sports GT car. The reason why Honda didn't build the next gen NSX is because it won't do Honda or Acura any good... it's just going to be another NSX ... a great car that no one want. And stay the same way for 15 years.... MR is by far the best layout for performance. But again why should Honda build it???? Tell me a reason?? other then to satisfy some fan boys who will never own one..... FR platform is a much better choice, for Honda not fanboys…. And I don’t care how bad the FM platform is.. the Z out sell S2000 by far. Both are in the same price range and both are 2seater. And the Z race car is beating NSX in superGT……. And the next GT-R are using the modified FM platform….

Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2007 22:46
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BIG-JG wrote:
The reason why Honda didn't build the next gen NSX is because it won't do Honda or Acura any good... it's just going to be another NSX ... a great car that no one want.

What good spending millions in ALMS, Formula 1 and IRL does, if Honda doesn't want to build a car to represent its racing effort? No, I don't buy into racing inspired Honda Odyssey thing that we occasionally see on TV.

Even though NSX didn't sell in huge volume (was it supposed to?), it represented Honda's core values, and a passion in racing. Where are those values now? There have been plenty of occasions when test drive of some supercars have found mention of NSX somehow that a certain car reminds them of NSX etc. Now THATs heritage. And thats the return, where people automatically develop respect for Honda. At this point it seems Acura is more keen on chasing Lexus's LF-A than continuing the pride that was NSX.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 02:02
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Your logic is flawed JG, seriously flawed.

1) Lots of people wanted the NSX. They were selling thousands/year the first few years. But then Honda made the mistake of letting it stagnate. Old, unchanged cars rarely have continued sales success - regardless of price. If Honda had taken a regular update approach like they do with their lower priced models they would have been able to have sales approaching that of the Porsche 911. The problem is not the platform, the problem is Honda's unwillingness to update it.

2) Your continued bemoaning of fanboys shows a distinct lack of awareness of the readership of this site. There's a reason TOV is the only Honda specific enthusiast site to get press car access, invitation to launches and all the inside info we get - its because our readers buy lots of new cars. And they buy expensive cars too. I guarantee you that more than a few of us would pony up for a $100k NSX successor (a real successor, not the ASCC) - including me.

3) The Z outselling the S2000 shouldn't be surprising - first, it starts nearly $6k cheaper (that's a 20% difference). Second, most of its sales are hardtops - convertibles are a much smaller market. Finally, sales do not indicate performance superiority, else we'd certainly be claiming that the Mustang is a superior chassis to both the FM and AP1/2 chassis.

4) Lastly, SuperGT cars bear little resemblance to the cars they're based on. And their performance is highly regulated to ensure parity. The series and its results have no relevance to the relative merits of production car chassis and attributes.

SC

Varmint
Profile for Varmint
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 14:09
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notyper wrote:
1) Lots of people wanted the NSX. They were selling thousands/year the first few years. But then Honda made the mistake of letting it stagnate. Old, unchanged cars rarely have continued sales success - regardless of price.

Not to be too picky, but I'm not 100% on board with a couple of things in there.

According to what I've been able to find on the web, the NSX sold well in the last half of 1990, with 1,119 units sold; all of 1991, with 1,940 sold; and at least part of 1992, with 1,154 sold . Following those years, the NSX sold 652 ('93) and 533 ('94).

So, it seems to me that sales started falling sometime in 1992. I have a hard time accepting the notion that the lack of updates on a two year-old car was the most salient cause for slow sales.

1992 was the first year for the Dodge Viper. Technically, the very first rolled off the assembly line in December 1991, but 1992 was really the first year for the car.

Incidentally, the best year for the NSX following the decline was 1995 (884 units). That was the year they added the performance-degrading targa top.

I understand that "Old, unchanged cars rarely have continued sales success," but these cars are pretty rare to begin with. We'd never find a car with exactly the same longevity, price-point, and target audience. Having written that, the Viper makes a compelling argument about there being more than one way to approach the market: It sells well; it lasted 10-11 years without a complete overhaul; it's based on a FR platform; and it still provides the desired halo effect for the brand. The fact that the Viper's introduction coincides with the decline of the NSX sorta puts a slammer at the end of the lesson. Even if the story of the Viper is a rarity, I would not be surprised if Acura felt that lesson was worth learning.

I'm in the camp who believes this ASC should not be the successor to the NSX. But as a brand new halo car for the company, I don't have a problem with it.

the insider
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Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 16:07
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The Viper also had a price tag around 50K when it was introduced. At the time it offered more bang for the buck then the competition.
JMU R1
Profile for JMU R1
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 16:50
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Varmint wrote:
Not to be too picky, but I'm not 100% on board with a couple of things in there.

According to what I've been able to find on the web, the NSX sold well in the last half of 1990, with 1,119 units sold; all of 1991, with 1,940 sold; and at least part of 1992, with 1,154 sold . Following those years, the NSX sold 652 ('93) and 533 ('94).


Where'd you get your numbers from? US sales numbers from NSX Prime:

91: 3163
92: 1270
93: 608
94: 512
95: 780

Apparently US sales made up approximately half of worldwide sales.

Varmint
Profile for Varmint
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 18:05
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the insider wrote:
The Viper also had a price tag around 50K when it was introduced. At the time it offered more bang for the buck then the competition.

Yes, it was cheaper and by a significant amount. But the NSX also started off at $65K or so. More expensive? Yes. But when you get into exotics, you find more buyers who don't care.

Varmint
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Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 18:11
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You may have factory production numbers, not sales figures.

I got my figures from Hondanews.com.

notyper
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Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 18:33
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Several items you missed historically Varmint.

1) 1993 market the release of the 993 variant of the 911. It saw a marked power increase (putting it on par with the NSX vs. the 964's power deficit) and improved refinement. Furthermore, in the 4 short years that the 993 was produced, Porsche introduced a turbo variant, a convertible, a targa and AWD models - lots of updates and improvements. In fact, some Porsche historians question why the 993 was introduced as the 996 was already on the drawing board in 1991. Given that the 993 model run was the shortest for any 911 at the time, it is an interesting question. Sales were slow at that time though for Porsche, who knows why?

2) 1993 also saw the first photos of the soon to be released (mid 1994) Ferrari 355, the successor to the 348 which the NSX pretty much obsoleted. While the 355 was no Honda in terms of build quality and reliability, it was vastly improved over the 348, had much better handling and significantly improved acceleration.

3) The Viper, while similarly priced, really wasn't competition for the NSX or 911. It offered stonking acceleration for the $$$ (as most American sports cars seem to), but it was poorly built, not particularly reliable and highly uncomfortable (cabin heat, cramped pedal box, etc.). Nonetheless, it was definitely a supercar in the American mold and it sold about 10k units worldwide in its first 6 years (not that different than the NSX.....). However, it was significantly updated in 1995 (adding 50 more hp and a Coupe model), and later updates saw the ACR package and a variety of small runs of specialty models such as that celebrating Viper's LeMans success with Oreca.

The point of all this being that even in the supercar market, you can't stand still for long. The 911 (which I think is the NSX's closest competitor) certainly didn't (nor does it today). Even Dodge, with its relatively unique Viper, saw fit to do regular updates, including a major one after 4 years. Correspondingly, it took Honda over 6 years, and while the changes are noticeable, 20 hp and 1 more tranny speed don't sound too significant to the end user.

Unfortunately for Honda, they seem to have a habit of this sort of thing with their halo cars. They've followed almost the exact same pattern with the S2000 - a car which has had very healthy sales and could have become a flag carrier for Honda.

SC

BIG-JG
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Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 23:11
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notyper wrote:
Your logic is flawed JG, seriously flawed.

1) Lots of people wanted the NSX. They were selling thousands/year the first few years. But then Honda made the mistake of letting it stagnate. Old, unchanged cars rarely have continued sales success - regardless of price. If Honda had taken a regular update approach like they do with their lower priced models they would have been able to have sales approaching that of the Porsche 911. The problem is not the platform, the problem is Honda's unwillingness to update it.

2) Your continued bemoaning of fanboys shows a distinct lack of awareness of the readership of this site. There's a reason TOV is the only Honda specific enthusiast site to get press car access, invitation to launches and all the inside info we get - its because our readers buy lots of new cars. And they buy expensive cars too. I guarantee you that more than a few of us would pony up for a $100k NSX successor (a real successor, not the ASCC) - including me.

3) The Z outselling the S2000 shouldn't be surprising - first, it starts nearly $6k cheaper (that's a 20% difference). Second, most of its sales are hardtops - convertibles are a much smaller market. Finally, sales do not indicate performance superiority, else we'd certainly be claiming that the Mustang is a superior chassis to both the FM and AP1/2 chassis.

4) Lastly, SuperGT cars bear little resemblance to the cars they're based on. And their performance is highly regulated to ensure parity. The series and its results have no relevance to the relative merits of production car chassis and attributes.

SC



What I am trying to say is Honda build ASCC not as a technology show case but more of a car that can make a difference. Like the 1st civic and accord did.......... and for right now Acura need it more then any one. Look at Lexus and Infiniti. I love Acura. But I hate to see her fall behind. Lexus is way beyond and Infiniti is growing really fast. Few years back Acura was way ahead of Infiniti. and look at now. And how many people on this website actually when out and got a brand new NSX??? As a proudly owner of a 2004 S2000 I can tell you I have beaten many Z’s both in drag race and autocross. But that don’t make S2000 more successful. Same with ASCC, I think it will be more successful if the engine is in the front. And I know any one here want Honda to be successful because we are all fan boys right………. I love the idea of an F1 originate mid engine super car power by Honda. But I love the idea of an Acura flagship sedan that can compete with the M-Benz, BMW, and Lexus MORE. I dream of when Acura become a tier one luxury auto maker and when people assuming you have status just because you drive a brand new Acura. With ASSC and ASC concept, I think that dream well become reality very soon………….

Wizard
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Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2007 23:37
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If it were a matter of selling more cars, Honda could have done without Acura brand. There is more to selling cars, and when we talk about a company like Honda (not Toyota), we also speak of the heritage that the company (rightfull)y brags about.

Tell me, in what way is AASC provides for a better direction to Acura, and Honda in general than NSX did in the past? Is that car (potential at this point) representative of Honda's core values?

Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2007 00:30
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Varmint wrote:
According to what I've been able to find on the web, the NSX sold well in the last half of 1990, with 1,119 units sold; all of 1991, with 1,940 sold; and at least part of 1992, with 1,154 sold . Following those years, the NSX sold 652 ('93) and 533 ('94).

I think this explains it:

"The code name NS-X, already well-known due to the successful promotion of the prototype vehicle, had been adopted as the official model designation, NSX. But orders had already been pouring in prior to the launch, and the car was soon such a hit that buyers would have to wait as long as three years to get their very own dream machines."

NSX sales did slow down quite a bit in the fifth year, and the sixth year makeover (despite a substantial increase in price) provided some boost up to 884 units in 1995 (calender year sales). BTW, NSX's price grew a lot in first five years too. It started with $62K and was up at $83.5K for the 1996 model.

Needless to say, reading NSX's history raises the bar for the "NSX successor" even more. Excerpts:

“What particular qualities would a sportscar have in representing the Honda name?” This was the ultimate question facing the development team, and they repeatedly engaged in long discussions in the hope of finding an answer. Eventually, once their direction had been identified through the use of a conceptual diagram, they began to define key words in the development of their new car, code-named the NSX. The diagram was a means of representing power-to-weight ratio (running performance) along the Y-axis and wheelbase-to-weight ratio (turning and stopping performance) along the X-axis in clear, accessible terms.

“What we need is a midrange, midship car that provides superior performance yet requires equally superior driving skills in order to be controlled. We can then maximize the dynamic performance of this car to a degree that’s as close as possible to an F-1 machine.”


It seems, the engineers had a target and not unlike that of the H1300 (Honda's first sedan whose history is a must read), it was more of an exercise in engineering than making sales the sole target.

All this simply makes me wonder, what is the primary motivation behind the NSX successor?

Varmint
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Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2007 15:56
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Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that the Viper was solely responsible for the downward spiral of the NSX. I just think it poses a good question for Acura to ponder. There are many factors which add up to tell the story of the NSX's decline.

The fact that Acura allowed the NSX to stagnate is a good one. I just have a hard time accepting that it is the primary reason, given that sales slowed after only 2 years. Did others update their products faster and more significantly? Yes. But in several of those cases, the changes were made long after the NSX was already in decline.

One could also point to the 1993 RX7 and argue that performance similar to the 911 and NSX could be had for far fewer dollars. But the RX7 died after three years. Reason? Slow sales. Even the bargain market wasn't having a big impact.

SUVs? Yeah, the 1990's was the rise of the sport utility. Many blame Honda's attempts at bringing over an SUV for sucking the funding out of the NSX program. Whether that's true or not, I have no idea. It is certain that mid-range sports cars (Prelude, Supra, 300Z, etc.) died off during that time. Whether there was a significant impact on the exotics, I dunno.

Anyway, there are lots of potential reasons.

I focused on the Viper because it's a GT with the much-maligned FR layout and the timing of its launch lines up so perfectly with the decline of the NSX. Clearly, there is a large portion of the market looking for a hi-po GT. While true driving enthusiasts would not cross-shop an NSX and a Viper, I'll bet that more than half the buyers for exotics don't know a clutch from a dead pedal.

I'm just saying that Acura may have learned a lesson from the Viper. I'm not saying the Viper is a better car. I'm not even saying they are direct competitors. I'm saying there is a lesson in the Viper's story and that it may explain Acura's choice for the ASC.

Varmint
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Re: This is not the NSX, this is BETTER [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2007 16:27
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Wizard wrote:
NSX sales did slow down quite a bit in the fifth year, and the sixth year makeover (despite a substantial increase in price) provided some boost up to 884 units in 1995 (calender year sales).

5th year? More like 3rd year. Heck, the first full calendar year for sales was nearly 2K. The second full year was just over 1K. That's a drop of more than 40%.

Wizard wrote:
It seems, the engineers had a target and not unlike that of the H1300 (Honda's first sedan whose history is a must read), it was more of an exercise in engineering than making sales the sole target.

As you wrote over at Edmunds. Honda learned that engineering is a tool for building good products, not an end in and of itself.

Wizard wrote:
All this simply makes me wonder, what is the primary motivation behind the NSX successor?

To sell more copies of the RL, TL, MDX, RDX, and TSX by advancing the image of Acura technology and luxury.

Now ask yourself another question. What technology does Acura have today which they can claim exclusively as their own? I'll give you a hint... it aint RWD or mid-engine platforms.


 
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