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  TOV News > Next-gen NSX, TSX, Accord, Fit, and more sketches from a Japanese "Scoop" Magazine > > Re: Hondas & Turbos

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2K5TSX
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TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 12:17
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Looks sweet.. please no K23Turbo!!

SH-AWD yes please.

I was looking at the RDX last weekend while getting service @ Acura... and the salesman was trying to sell a couple on the RDX.... they were like why a 4 cylinder? hes like well a 2.3L Turbo was done to get the power of a V6 but the fuel economy of a 4cylinder (not exactly)

You should have seen there faces when he said it had a turbo... right away they were like no thanks to much trouble...

I feel the same way... normally aspirated PLEASE

jgdpsu
Profile for jgdpsu
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 12:43
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I agree...aerodynamics aside. I just don't see how they could get a 23mpg RDX engine to be a min. 30mpg car. 30mpg is my minimum consideration for a 4-banger. Plus the hassles of a turbo motor are not worth it IMHO neither. Keep the K24 and massage the power...it's not lacking by much.

Or...with the TL @ 3.2/3.5L V6...that still leaves room in the Acura family for a 3.0L V6 to make it's way into a TSX.

Mechanic
Profile for Mechanic
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 12:45
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I agree. The initial owners of these vehicles may not have too many maintenence issues, but the beyond-the-warranty owners -- i.e., 50k-60k on the odometer folks -- will rue the day they the bought a 2.3 liter turbocharged engine powering a 4000 lbs truck.
2K5TSX
Profile for 2K5TSX
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 13:11
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jgdpsu wrote:
I agree...aerodynamics aside. I just don't see how they could get a 23mpg RDX engine to be a min. 30mpg car. 30mpg is my minimum consideration for a 4-banger. Plus the hassles of a turbo motor are not worth it IMHO neither. Keep the K24 and massage the power...it's not lacking by much.

Or...with the TL @ 3.2/3.5L V6...that still leaves room in the Acura family for a 3.0L V6 to make it's way into a TSX.



If the next generation TSX has a 2.3L Turbo then this will be the last TSX that I own, and in my opinion the most reliable (K24). Id much prefer to upgrade to a TL and get the reliability of a V6 than a turbo 4 making similar output and fuel economy.

outersquare
Profile for outersquare
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 13:26
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this turbo reliability thing is overdone.

besides if you cook the turbo, it's an opportunity to get a bigger one afterward.


silverf161
Profile for silverf161
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 13:41
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I like the look in that it stays true to the Sports4 concept. the bulging fenders look muscular. The grill looks clean and unlike the wierd controvseral grills of the CRV and VW/Audi.

I hope they offer a Naturally Aspriated version. The turbo is just unnecessary if its fuel economy is going to be that poor like RDX. Why not a small V6, which will get better mileage than RDX engine.

I prefer to keep it with a F22C engine or redesign the K24 to put out around 240 NATURALLY Aspriated HP. Honda experience in Turbo is limited in Production cars. Let's not talk about INDY or CART. And the few turbos that exist in Diesels (Europe) and in Japan is limited. The turbo from the RDX is made by Mitsubishi. Go figure.

Honda is good at extracting Hp from naturally Aspriated engines. Stick with what you are good at and don't give us turbo until is has proven out with decent power and fuel mileage. Compared to the EVO and STi engine, the power and fuel economy disappoints on the Honda. Granted when the 2.3 Turbo is used on the TSX, the lighter weight may improve economy, but probably not by much. The car will weight in close to 3480 lbs with Sh-AWD.

2K5TSX
Profile for 2K5TSX
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 13:43
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If anyone were to make a turbo engine reliable it would be Honda/Acura... and I know this is not Honda's first turbo... but it has yet to be seen how reliable their most modern turbo application will be.

I have always liked Honda's Natually aspirated VTEC engines over their Turbo alternatives. It will take some time before I cross over. At least if I ever did buy a turbo car... it would be a Honda/Acura.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
let's clear something up about the mitsubishi turbo... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 13:55
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silverf16 wrote:
I like the look in that it stays true to the Sports4 concept. the bulging fenders look muscular. The grill looks clean and unlike the wierd controvseral grills of the CRV and VW/Audi.

I hope they offer a Naturally Aspriated version. The turbo is just unnecessary if its fuel economy is going to be that poor like RDX. Why not a small V6, which will get better mileage than RDX engine.

I prefer to keep it with a F22C engine or redesign the K24 to put out around 240 NATURALLY Aspriated HP. Honda experience in Turbo is limited in Production cars. Let's not talk about INDY or CART. And the few turbos that exist in Diesels (Europe) and in Japan is limited. The turbo from the RDX is made by Mitsubishi. Go figure.

Honda is good at extracting Hp from naturally Aspriated engines. Stick with what you are good at and don't give us turbo until is has proven out with decent power and fuel mileage. Compared to the EVO and STi engine, the power and fuel economy disappoints on the Honda. Granted when the 2.3 Turbo is used on the TSX, the lighter weight may improve economy, but probably not by much. The car will weight in close to 3480 lbs with Sh-AWD.



it's true that a Mitsubishi division supplies Honda with the turbos that are used in the RDX's K23, but don't think for a moment that Honda had any assistance from Mitsubishi Motors. A turbocharger is simply a component and they sourced it from a supplier, just like they source dampers from Showa and wheels from Enkei. Here's another news flash - the vast majority of turbocharged motors in the market use turbos that are sourced from suppliers such as Garrett, Mitsubishi, BorgWarner, KKK, IHI, and Bosch to name a few. Porsche, VW, Saab, Volvo, DaimlerChrysler, Mazda, etc... do not build their own turbochargers.

Torque
Profile for Torque
Re: let's clear something up about the mitsubishi turbo... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 14:06
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Hey Jeff, is there any word on if there is going to be only one engine choice for the TSX or might there be an option as well? Never gonna happen, but I'd like to see a normally aspirated 4, a turbo charged 4, then a V6 similar to how Audi markets the A4 (not counting the V8 engine of course).
Karl O.
Profile for Karl O.
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 14:11
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Mechanic wrote:
I agree. The initial owners of these vehicles may not have too many maintenence issues, but the beyond-the-warranty owners -- i.e., 50k-60k on the odometer folks -- will rue the day they the bought a 2.3 liter turbocharged engine powering a 4000 lbs truck.


That's a silly anecdote.

Barring mechanical manufacturing defects, turbos in general have been very reliable since the manufacturers have been able to use modern electronics to control them.

Karl O.
Profile for Karl O.
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 14:23
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silverf16 wrote:

I prefer to keep it with a F22C engine or redesign the K24 to put out around 240 NATURALLY Aspriated HP. Honda experience in Turbo is limited in Production cars. Let's not talk about INDY or CART. And the few turbos that exist in Diesels (Europe) and in Japan is limited. The turbo from the RDX is made by Mitsubishi. Go figure.


Have you driven any cars with those engines? The F series is great in the S2000, but it's ancient news and would be horrible in a luxury sedan. It might be humorous in a stripped down Civic sedan with no sound deadening, but keep it out of the Acuras, please.

And a K24 with 240hp - where is the powerband going to be? The TSX, at 3200+ lbs, is slow enough as it is. That thing is gonna need more grunt lower in the powerband, especially with the added weight of AWD. A small V6? That's gonna be expensive, and probably torqueless as well. A larger V6? I think you might be bumping into TL territory, although you can certainly argue that if the TSX creeps up in price another $3k or so (RDX prices) it's gonna be smack in the middle of G35/E90/IS territory where competition is gonna be fierce.

Anyway, it doesn't look like Honda will commit to a V6 in that car, and a high strung K24 TSX at $33k is gonna fare dismally against a grunty $35K G35 or E90.

Also, you guys need to understand that as MSRP increases, the importance of the EPA mileage numbers decreases. People that pay big bucks for cars couldn't care less about the cost of fuel.

silverf161
Profile for silverf161
Re: let's clear something up about the mitsubishi turbo... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 14:38
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Jeff, wow, where is this coming from? Did I offend you or Honda with the turbo comment? Didn't mean to. Apologize if I did.

Yes, i agree with you about the turbo unit. I was just disappointed with all the reported fuel economy numbers and wonder if Honda's got their act together with this engine calibration

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: let's clear something up about the mitsubishi turbo... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 14:57
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silverf16 wrote:
Jeff, wow, where is this coming from? Did I offend you or Honda with the turbo comment? Didn't mean to. Apologize if I did.

Yes, i agree with you about the turbo unit. I was just disappointed with all the reported fuel economy numbers and wonder if Honda's got their act together with this engine calibration



no, I wasn't offended but I've seen this misconception elsewhere and I want to be sure it's cleared up before other people read it and misunderstand the situation.

Tosa1962
Profile for Tosa1962
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 15:01
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2K5TSX wrote:
Looks sweet.. please no K23Turbo!!

SH-AWD yes please.

I was looking at the RDX last weekend while getting service @ Acura... and the salesman was trying to sell a couple on the RDX.... they were like why a 4 cylinder? hes like well a 2.3L Turbo was done to get the power of a V6 but the fuel economy of a 4cylinder (not exactly)

You should have seen there faces when he said it had a turbo... right away they were like no thanks to much trouble...

I feel the same way... normally aspirated PLEASE


I couldn't find SH-AWD on the article but appears they have 'hybrid' in the story. The 2.3 turbo and diesel are mentioned.

The current Japanes Accord 2.0 have 4WD option while 2.4 does not...FWD.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: let's clear something up about the mitsubishi turbo... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 15:04
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silverf16 wrote:
Jeff, wow, where is this coming from? Did I offend you or Honda with the turbo comment? Didn't mean to. Apologize if I did.

Yes, i agree with you about the turbo unit. I was just disappointed with all the reported fuel economy numbers and wonder if Honda's got their act together with this engine calibration



That engine in a 2WD Civic more than likely would return much higher fuel economy numbers. The SH-AWD eats up economy along with the stickier tires on the RDX, the hefty weight and the bigger body for aero efficiency reasons. I'm not surprised with the numbers. I would guess it would get 30+ in a Civic with little problems.

siegen
Profile for siegen
Re: let's clear something up about the mitsubishi turbo... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 16:40
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silverf16 wrote:
I was just disappointed with all the reported fuel economy numbers



Have you looked at the economy of the BMW X3 with 3.0L inline 6? Less TQ, less power, about 70 lbs heavier, and 16/23 compared to the RDX's 19/23. What's interesting is the 6sp manual version of the X3 gets 17/25. Acura should have really offered a 6sp version, as it would probably gain 1-2mpg better and be faster.

klossfam1
Profile for klossfam1
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 16:51
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Make sure you've taken a good long test drive in a RDX before making the "no turbo" statement...It's an awesome power plant and I trust the reliability should be better than most turbocharged power plants (although the turbo - like many nowadays - is a Mitsu product)...I own a TSX and got good seat time in a RDX and I dream of the day in late 2007 or early 2008 that I could buy a TSX with SH-AWD, a 6-speed and the 2.3 Turbo...

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 17:43
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Whats the use in having a SH-AWD equipped TSX if there isnt enough torque available to use it? The current J30/J32 dont supply enough torque to fully use the SH-AWD system. The K23T makes as much torque as the J35 (RL) and has good acceleration for a 4000lb vehicle. So imagine the next TSX equipped with SH-AWD coming in around 3450lbs with 250hp and 260lbft of torque from the K23 turbo. Doesnt sound bad to me at all.

Patrick

HappaSaiyan
Profile for HappaSaiyan
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 19:18
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its amazing what type of information spews out of the mouths of people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

have fun with sh-awd and a k24...and by fun i mean never using it. in order to shift torque from front to rear and side to side, you need to produce torque to actually move it.

when you were at the dealership, you apparently didnt drive it because if you did, you wouldve realized why they went with a turbo. heck, even if youve driven any other modern day turbocharged car (wrx / sti / evo / mazdaspeed3 / mazdaspeed6 / legacy gt / forester xt / etc etc etc), you would realize why they are using them. (smaller, more compact engine with the power of a much larger one).

the output (torque / horsepower) your engine puts out needs 2 crucial things. air and fuel. to make X horsepower, you need Y air and Z fuel (simplified version)...and it doesnt matter if you have 4 cylinders or 16. therefore, it doesnt matter if you have a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine or a v6 engine both making 240hp, they will both net very near the same gas mileage in the same car because they both require very near the same gas for the amount of air needed to attain 240hp.

what you consider a "partnership" between honda and mitsubishi is nothing more than mistubishi supplying the turbo to honda. honda is not partnered with brembo when they have brembo brakes. honda is not partnered with michelin when they use michelin tires. mistu supplies a product and honda buys it from them.

some of the people on this site really need to read more and talk less.


2K5TSX wrote:
Looks sweet.. please no K23Turbo!!

SH-AWD yes please.

I was looking at the RDX last weekend while getting service @ Acura... and the salesman was trying to sell a couple on the RDX.... they were like why a 4 cylinder? hes like well a 2.3L Turbo was done to get the power of a V6 but the fuel economy of a 4cylinder (not exactly)

You should have seen there faces when he said it had a turbo... right away they were like no thanks to much trouble...

I feel the same way... normally aspirated PLEASE



2K5TSX
Profile for 2K5TSX
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 19:47
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HappaSaiyan wrote:
its amazing what type of information spews out of the mouths of people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

have fun with sh-awd and a k24...and by fun i mean never using it. in order to shift torque from front to rear and side to side, you need to produce torque to actually move it.
the output (torque / horsepower) your engine puts out needs 2 crucial things. air and fuel. to make X horsepower, you need Y air and Z fuel (simplified version)...and it doesnt matter if you have 4 cylinders or 16. therefore, it doesnt matter if you have a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine or a v6 engine both making 240hp, they will both net very near the same gas mileage in the same car because they both require very near the same gas for the amount of air needed to attain 240hp.

some of the people on this site really need to read more and talk less.


2K5TSX wrote:
Looks sweet.. please no K23Turbo!!

SH-AWD yes please.

I feel the same way... normally aspirated PLEASE





I think you are confusing my post with the expressions of others. I didn't say anything about having a K24 mated with the SH-AWD system. I merely indicated that I prefer a Naturally Aspirated motor. The reason the K24 exists in the current TSX chasis is that a V6 will not fit! If a TSX based on the sports4 conept can fit a nice 3.0 or 3.2L I6 or V6 producing 260 hp and 220lbs of torque than why not?

As well if a turbo 4 is being added for the sole purpose to produce better fuel economy when a 3.0L V6 will match it...then why add it? Why tell customers that it gets better fuel economy... when it doesn't.... really.

If it works with the RDX then leave it in the RDX... just leave it out of my next TSX..... thanks

HappaSaiyan
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Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 20:18
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thats the thing- IT ISNT SUPPOSED TO HAVE BETTER MILEAGE. whoever said that obviously doesnt know anything about how cars work. (and yes, the vast majority of car dealers have absolutely no idea how cars work, let alone the details of the cars they are selling!).

2K5TSX wrote:
HappaSaiyan wrote:
its amazing what type of information spews out of the mouths of people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

have fun with sh-awd and a k24...and by fun i mean never using it. in order to shift torque from front to rear and side to side, you need to produce torque to actually move it.
the output (torque / horsepower) your engine puts out needs 2 crucial things. air and fuel. to make X horsepower, you need Y air and Z fuel (simplified version)...and it doesnt matter if you have 4 cylinders or 16. therefore, it doesnt matter if you have a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine or a v6 engine both making 240hp, they will both net very near the same gas mileage in the same car because they both require very near the same gas for the amount of air needed to attain 240hp.

some of the people on this site really need to read more and talk less.


2K5TSX wrote:
Looks sweet.. please no K23Turbo!!

SH-AWD yes please.

I feel the same way... normally aspirated PLEASE





I think you are confusing my post with the expressions of others. I didn't say anything about having a K24 mated with the SH-AWD system. I merely indicated that I prefer a Naturally Aspirated motor. The reason the K24 exists in the current TSX chasis is that a V6 will not fit! If a TSX based on the sports4 conept can fit a nice 3.0 or 3.2L I6 or V6 producing 260 hp and 220lbs of torque than why not?

As well if a turbo 4 is being added for the sole purpose to produce better fuel economy when a 3.0L V6 will match it...then why add it? Why tell customers that it gets better fuel economy... when it doesn't.... really.

If it works with the RDX then leave it in the RDX... just leave it out of my next TSX..... thanks



HappaSaiyan
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Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-13-2006 20:21
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agreed. give it 300hp, and i will kick my STi to the curb. ;)
klossfam wrote:
Make sure you've taken a good long test drive in a RDX before making the "no turbo" statement...It's an awesome power plant and I trust the reliability should be better than most turbocharged power plants (although the turbo - like many nowadays - is a Mitsu product)...I own a TSX and got good seat time in a RDX and I dream of the day in late 2007 or early 2008 that I could buy a TSX with SH-AWD, a 6-speed and the 2.3 Turbo...



Powered by Honda
Profile for Powered by Honda
Re: let's clear something up about the mitsubishi turbo... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2006 00:24
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Everyone loves a turbo. Look at AUDI A4 and EVERY VW EVER MADE. Even tho billions of vw's dont have turbos.

But you get the picture.

Turbos sell. I see tons of RDX's now on the road. HOME RUN HONDA!!!

longlivehonda
Profile for longlivehonda
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2006 01:52
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isnt this going to be the next gen japanese accord
2K5TSX
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Re: let's clear something up about the mitsubishi turbo... [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2006 08:35
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Powered by Honda wrote:
Everyone loves a turbo. Look at AUDI A4 and EVERY VW EVER MADE. Even tho billions of vw's dont have turbos.

But you get the picture.

Turbos sell. I see tons of RDX's now on the road. HOME RUN HONDA!!!



Last time I checked.... we weren't all driving Audi.... I wouldn't be caught dead in a VW. Non-turbo power made Honda unique.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2006 10:01
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longlivehonda wrote:
isnt this going to be the next gen japanese accord


no, since acura is launching as a brand in Japan, it appears that they will have a TSX that is distinct from the Accord, as it is currently in the US. That's why they show the next generation Accord in a sketch too.

2002CivicSi
Profile for 2002CivicSi
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2006 13:46
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You guys are forgetting the fact that the RDX weighs ~800 lbs. more than the TSX. The 2.3L turbo will get substantially better mileage in the TSX. Here's an example:

BMW X3: 16/23 mpg
BMW 330i: 20/29 mpg

The same engine in a 20% lighter car will get... surprise, 20% better fuel economy. Going by this rule, the TSX with a 2.3L turbo will get at least 23/28 mpg (also better aerodynamics may yield another 1-2 mpg on the highway).

CarPhreakD
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Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2006 14:01
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Honda USED to be renowned for it's naturally aspirated engine, but nowadays they're really not that special anymore. A high-revving nature and responsiveness is good, but it makes no difference if you're consistently slow on track day, or trying to over-take the jerk in the Mustang GT. To stay competitive, a turbo is a really good idea, ESPECIALLY for a supposed upscale division like Acura, where high-tech gadgetry is pretty much a must.

not to mention, this engine is extremely compact (2.3 litres is hardly larger than a RSX's engine), yet produces 240 odd HP and 260 lb. ft of torque... in the RDX, Road and Track magazine ran it to 60 mph in under 6.3 seconds... 6.3 seconds in a frickin SUV!!! Not to mention, with the variable vanes the lag is minimized. With this kind of power out of such a small engine, How can you complain about it not being naturally aspirated?

JIRZLEE
Profile for JIRZLEE
Re: TSX [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2006 14:14
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Acura uses variable nozzle, not variable vanes, to minimize lag.

MacGyver
Profile for MacGyver
Re: Hondas & Turbos [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-15-2006 05:40
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People keep forgetting that in the 80s when turbocharged engines were being used in F1 Honda (as engine supplier) was was winning A LOT! So that should put to rest questions on how well Honda could manufacture turbocharged engines, regardless if the turbine actually came from a 3rd-party manufacturer.

 
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