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TOV Forums > Civic > > Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...

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KaySee
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A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:08
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This is a quick article on the mazdaspeed3 check it out and see what you think.

http://cars.ign.com/articles/730/730560p1.html

Computer programs used to quell torque. Interesting stuff, another solution to high power FWD cars. The sport compact market is having some fun.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:18
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KaySee wrote:
This is a quick article on the mazdaspeed3 check it out and see what you think.

http://cars.ign.com/articles/730/730560p1.html

Computer programs used to quell torque. Interesting stuff, another solution to high power FWD cars. The sport compact market is having some fun.



the TL 6MT has been using that sort of thing for a year or two already.

chenslee
Profile for chenslee
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:30
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Sports Compact magazine gave the MS3 a positive review, but like many of the cars that I have window shopped before, there is always a fatal flaw. For me, the MS3's fatal flaw is the limited production. They are only making 5000 a year. Maybe there is only a market for 5000 a year, but that makes parts scarce 10 years from now. I havn't seen a MSProtege in over a year. Though I doubt that I would keep a car more than 5 or 6 years, I prefer serviceability to exclusivity.
KaySee
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:33
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Jeff wrote:
KaySee wrote:
This is a quick article on the mazdaspeed3 check it out and see what you think.

http://cars.ign.com/articles/730/730560p1.html

Computer programs used to quell torque. Interesting stuff, another solution to high power FWD cars. The sport compact market is having some fun.



the TL 6MT has been using that sort of thing for a year or two already.



Yeah I was gonna mention that but the TL is not really tuned for as sporty driving as the MS3. And the TL is how much more money? I just thought it was interesting in this application, that is all.

watermelon
Profile for watermelon
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:39
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chenslee wrote:
Sports Compact magazine gave the MS3 a positive review, but like many of the cars that I have window shopped before, there is always a fatal flaw. For me, the MS3's fatal flaw is the limited production. They are only making 5000 a year. Maybe there is only a market for 5000 a year, but that makes parts scarce 10 years from now. I havn't seen a MSProtege in over a year. Though I doubt that I would keep a car more than 5 or 6 years, I prefer serviceability to exclusivity.


And completely aside from servicability... I tried to get a MazdaSpeed Protege a few years back. It wasn't going to hit dealerships for another 2 months, but I couldn't find a single one. They were all sold before they hit the ground. I probably called every dealership within 300 miles. I left my name at a few in case a deal fell through, but I never heard anything. Really, that's the only reason I'm still a Honda owner instead of a Mazda owner right now.

I think the Si's estimated 15000 units a year is a good compromise between limiting production and having enough to be able to actually get one at a reasonable price, and ensure a source of future parts.

RyanDL
Profile for RyanDL
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:40
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chenslee wrote:
Sports Compact magazine gave the MS3 a positive review, but like many of the cars that I have window shopped before, there is always a fatal flaw. For me, the MS3's fatal flaw is the limited production. They are only making 5000 a year. Maybe there is only a market for 5000 a year, but that makes parts scarce 10 years from now. I havn't seen a MSProtege in over a year. Though I doubt that I would keep a car more than 5 or 6 years, I prefer serviceability to exclusivity.

Any Mazda dealer should either stock or be able to get parts for this car many, many years down the road. It also helps that the "regular" 3 is mass-produced and the engine is shared across multiple platforms (MS3, MS6, and CX-7). I don't think you'd have to worry about finding parts in this day and age.

Ryan

JeffX
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:50
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KaySee wrote:
Jeff wrote:
KaySee wrote:
This is a quick article on the mazdaspeed3 check it out and see what you think.

http://cars.ign.com/articles/730/730560p1.html

Computer programs used to quell torque. Interesting stuff, another solution to high power FWD cars. The sport compact market is having some fun.



the TL 6MT has been using that sort of thing for a year or two already.



Yeah I was gonna mention that but the TL is not really tuned for as sporty driving as the MS3. And the TL is how much more money? I just thought it was interesting in this application, that is all.



Actually I just looked at the article you posted. From that it sounds like they're simply bleeding boost or cutting timing or somethign to manage wheelspin. Volvo and others have been using that trick for maybe a decade or more on their FWD turbocharged cars. On the TL, the torque management only comes into play when you're steering the car, and the amount varies upon degree of steering angle, slip, etc... In a straight line it still gets full power. In the TL Type-S it works pretty well.

As for the Mazdaspeed 3 - I haven't driven one, but for $22k it appears to be a screaming performance/$ deal. And it looks great. While I'm sure I'd appreciate the huge advantage in power that the turbo provides, I've driven the Mazdaspeed6 and I wasn't all that impressed with the actual power delivery of that motor. It sounds like this version of it splits the difference between the Mazdaspeed6 and the CX-7 motor, so it probably has a wider powerband than the peaky Mazdaspeed6, and that's good. But it still may be too narrow for my tastes.

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:50
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..and the 5000 built means you better get ready to grab your ankles and take it like a man when the "mark up monster" comes for some candy.


JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:53
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DCR wrote:
..and the 5000 built means you better get ready to grab your ankles and take it like a man when the "mark up monster" comes for some candy.




yeah, there were something like 15-20000 Civic Sis built in the first year and it's still difficult to find one at even MSRP in many large markets.

marecki7
Profile for marecki7
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 09:53
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I think Mazda is trying to create demand on their products. If you recall from your Econ 101, (supply & demand), when supplies are limited then demand increases = good for mazda, bad for customer (average customer) You know that there are people who will pay top $$$ for something...

IMHO, Mazda has improved since their old days of making crappy cars (except the rx7), but it has not improved so much that I would go and buy one. (Im sure that some will say that Mazda alway made great cars???---MX3 V6, MX6 and a few others) Sure the new 3 & 6 (and of course the rx8) look interesting, both on paper and on the road, but I am still sceptical about their long term reliability.

Thats my .2 $

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 10:00
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marecki7 wrote:
I think Mazda is trying to create demand on their products. If you recall from your Econ 101, (supply & demand), when supplies are limited then demand increases = good for mazda, bad for customer (average customer) You know that there are people who will pay top $$$ for something...

IMHO, Mazda has improved since their old days of making crappy cars (except the rx7), but it has not improved so much that I would go and buy one. (Im sure that some will say that Mazda alway made great cars???---MX3 V6, MX6 and a few others) Sure the new 3 & 6 (and of course the rx8) look interesting, both on paper and on the road, but I am still sceptical about their long term reliability.

Thats my .2 $



It doesn't help that Mazda is having to recall and replace ALL '04 and '05 and even some '06 RX-8s to COMPLETELY REPLACE the engines in them. TWO FULL model years. That's unheard of and is going to be very costly for them in terms of dollars and reputation.

marecki7
Profile for marecki7
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 10:07
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It doesn't help that Mazda is having to recall and replace ALL '04 and '05 and even some '06 RX-8s to COMPLETELY REPLACE the engines in them. TWO FULL model years. That's unheard of and is going to be very costly for them in terms of dollars and reputation.



I wasnt aware of those recalls (I just dont pay much attention to Mazda)

However, due to resent discoveries, ie Mazda's recalls, I would like to offically withdraw my previous statement from my earlier post, and declare that: "Mazda still makes crappy cars..." LOL




Last edited by RyanDL on 09-06-2006 10:59
JoeFromPA
Profile for JoeFromPA
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 10:10
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It's funny...the r32 was produced in only 5000 units and it sat on the lots at the end of the year for heavy discounts (of course, now it's being marked UP as it's become "desirable")....

I think the MS3 will sell out quickly...and I just pray they make at least one model year of this car...I think the interior is great looking in pictures (which is not always the best indicator) and the 4-dr hatchback utility could definitely come in handy :)

I never understood why some people were/are so anti-computer control of torque in 1st and 2nd gear? As long as it's not intrusive, and it maximizes the capability of the car instead of limiting it, then it's beneficial. Isn't it?

Unlike the so-called Limited Slip in the GTI (which I became intimately familiar with on a recent test drive) which deters performance.

I'm not crazy about the 5-door hatchback looks....though it does look better than my saab 9-2x aero....but they have a great blend of price/performance/features. Xenons, leather, etc. for 24k? And some Mazdaspeed aftermarket support under warranty?

That's pretty nice....

Joe

P.s. I agree with parts availability...it's an extremely common platform with an engine and drivetrain bits sourced out of the rx-8, MS6, and CX-7....

chenslee
Profile for chenslee
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 10:12
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Jeff wrote:
marecki7 wrote:
I think Mazda is trying to create demand on their products. If you recall from your Econ 101, (supply & demand), when supplies are limited then demand increases = good for mazda, bad for customer (average customer) You know that there are people who will pay top $$$ for something...

IMHO, Mazda has improved since their old days of making crappy cars (except the rx7), but it has not improved so much that I would go and buy one. (Im sure that some will say that Mazda alway made great cars???---MX3 V6, MX6 and a few others) Sure the new 3 & 6 (and of course the rx8) look interesting, both on paper and on the road, but I am still sceptical about their long term reliability.

Thats my .2 $



It doesn't help that Mazda is having to recall and replace ALL '04 and '05 and even some '06 RX-8s to COMPLETELY REPLACE the engines in them. TWO FULL model years. That's unheard of and is going to be very costly for them in terms of dollars and reputation.



I wanted a RX-8 real bad untill I started reading the forums. Not only have they had over 10 reflash versions, but in certain dry and hot conditions, the engines fail. A co-worker gave me a ride in his and when he started it up, all I could smell was raw petrol. LOL@18mpg.

Anyway, I have to admit that though the MSProteges were limited production and scarce, I bought my Accent off the used lot of a Mazda dealer that had at least 6 of them and marked WAY down about the time the M3 was released. I think what happend was everyone who wanted a MSProtege had gotten one already, or just gave up and bought a WRX (thats what I did at least) and the casual buyers were turned off by the turbo.

KaySee
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 10:20
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I never said this was new tech(torque management). Just interesting in this vehicle. Anyway, I like the hatch better than the sedan. Maybe that would change if I saw a done up sedan. But mazda canada smokes several crack pipes before they release pricing on their cars in the north. The executives are not the only things that end up way too high.
JoeFromPA
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 10:22
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I can see why people who like "driver's cars" like the rx-8....it's got a dreamy weight and weight distribution, a rev happy engine, and lots of the other components of a sports car (plus the "4 door" part is pretty nice).

And I support Mazda for continuing to try to develop the rotary engine....the fact that they can get that much power out of that size engine (in naturally aspirated form, no less) is still impressive.

That being said....it needs alot more development. It still isn't reliable. It delivers horrible emissions (for it's size and year of build). And it's fuel economy is terrible, even for it's high power output.

I was sorry to hear about the recall. It's going to hurt Mazda, who I like as a brand (I like brand's that strive to be a little different, and who stick by their philosophies). It's going to hurt the willingness of the consumer to buy their next rotary engine. And it's going to hurt the development of the rotary engine.

Joe

P.s. Jeff, I kinda laughed when you said you wanted a less peaky engine than MS6 and a wider powerband....what type of car forum are we on again? :)

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 10:35
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JoeFromPA wrote:
I can see why people who like "driver's cars" like the rx-8....it's got a dreamy weight and weight distribution, a rev happy engine, and lots of the other components of a sports car (plus the "4 door" part is pretty nice).

And I support Mazda for continuing to try to develop the rotary engine....the fact that they can get that much power out of that size engine (in naturally aspirated form, no less) is still impressive.

That being said....it needs alot more development. It still isn't reliable. It delivers horrible emissions (for it's size and year of build). And it's fuel economy is terrible, even for it's high power output.

I was sorry to hear about the recall. It's going to hurt Mazda, who I like as a brand (I like brand's that strive to be a little different, and who stick by their philosophies). It's going to hurt the willingness of the consumer to buy their next rotary engine. And it's going to hurt the development of the rotary engine.

Joe

P.s. Jeff, I kinda laughed when you said you wanted a less peaky engine than MS6 and a wider powerband....what type of car forum are we on again? :)



the difference is that peakiness in the MS6 is very difficult to drive around. While Honda motors have always been accused of being peaky their torque curves have actually always been pretty broad and flat compared to others. Since they don't tend to roll off at the top end as much as competing motors, they keep making power until nearly the redline, which yeah, can feel a little peaky. But the kind of peaky I'm takling about is when the torque spikes with a huge ramp up and then falls off almost as rapidly. This is "peakiness" and the MS6 motor has it. Part of the problem with the MS6 is the mass of the vehicle. Add that to the grippy AWD system and it's very difficult to launch the MS6 without bogging it out. So you tach it up to 5000 or so and then bleed the clutch out and it will get it moving nicely that way but then you have to shift very quickly because it runs out of steam well before the redline. At a full boil acceleration run it's not bad, but in most everyday driving situations the motor feels really flat more often than not. Lots of turbo lag and the really narrow powerband make driving the car smoothly a challenge.

I agree about Mazda in general - their corporate philosophy is ideal for the enthusiast market. Thank god they have the balls to build the Miata and RX-8. And I do like the Mazda 3 as well.

Too bad the product is somewhat corrupted by the Ford money that they had to take to remain solvent, though.

JoeFromPA
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 11:32
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It's funny...the ford money corrupts, but it also helps them get a great dynamic platform (the euro-focus platform) and easier safety accolades since the platform was joint-developed by volvo (at least the passenger cell was).

So...there may be corruption (though I didn't like Mazda's that much before the miata, the RX-7, and the Mazda 3), but I guess they benefit from it too.

It was nice to read about the guys who developed it. True car lovers....I think the only sacrifices they truely made were using a top-mount intercooler instead of FMIC, and I feel the tires could've benefited from about 10 more mm of width. Aside from that, I've always found FWD to be a favorite challenge among this tuning crowd.

Joe


JensenB9
Profile for JensenB9
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 11:49
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Well the recall information on the RX8 is a bit flawed.

The recall is to do a compression test on the motor. Those that don't pass get new motors. Mazda expects only 1% to not pass the test.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 12:10
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JensenB9 wrote:
Well the recall information on the RX8 is a bit flawed.

The recall is to do a compression test on the motor. Those that don't pass get new motors. Mazda expects only 1% to not pass the test.



sorry, you're correct - I misstated it. ALL '04-'05 (and some '06) RX-8s have been recalled, but not all will get engine replacements.

This is what a story from 8.21.06 in Automotive News says:

MONTEREY, Calif. -- After suffering a black eye from disclosing that it won't count RX-8 owners' opinions in its internal customer-satisfaction scores, Mazda says it may have to replace the engines in many of its flagship sports cars.

The voluntary recall of all 2004 and 2005 vehicles, and some 2006s, is expected to be announced this week or next. It involves damage to the catalyst resulting from oil leaks in the RX-8's rotary engine.

Any engine that does not pass a vacuum test must be replaced, said Robert Davis, head of product development and quality at Mazda North American Operations.

Engines prone to failing the test are mostly in hot climates and use synthetic oils.

Romco06si
Profile for Romco06si
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 12:41
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To add to the recalls for this car, I also heard that if you left the car idling for extended time you could actually melt the exhuast in some way. I am not a fan of the rx-8 too much (the car looks cheap material wise), but I do feel the Miata is still the best car they make in terms of reliability and fun factor.
watermelon
Profile for watermelon
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 12:51
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chenslee wrote:
Anyway, I have to admit that though the MSProteges were limited production and scarce, I bought my Accent off the used lot of a Mazda dealer that had at least 6 of them and marked WAY down about the time the M3 was released. I think what happend was everyone who wanted a MSProtege had gotten one already, or just gave up and bought a WRX (thats what I did at least) and the casual buyers were turned off by the turbo.

Wow, really? 6 is quite a few. I would have jumped on one... the WRX was quite a bit more expensive. It must have been a huge volume dealership. Most places only got 1 or 2 for a whole model year (I know the first model year one I was trying to find was limited to 2000 cars), and I think they only made them 2 years.

TuanNguyen
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 15:25
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[this is off topic but..]

anyone going to zoom zoom live? im going october 22 in San Francisco. get to test drive cars for free autox and all. i think they have the mazdaspeed6 awd turbo and the mazda cx-7. and im not sure if the mazdaspeed3 will be able to drive.

sign up at www.zoomzoomlive.com

CivicB18
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 17:37
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Since Im a prime candidate for an Si sedan Ill be testing the MS3 also. I dont really care for wagons but this looks really sporty and agressive, yet has that high end sport compact design....I like it. For the money it might be even a better bargain than the slighty cheaper Si and its seriously fast. I think it runs in the high 13's in stock trim.

On top of that you have 2 models, Sport and the (GT) Grand Touring. The GT offers Bose stereo, auto on/off HID's, leather seats, and a theft deterrent system. The options or accessories are about the same as Hondas, navi, floor mats, auto mirror, ETC. But for 22k PLUS, wheres the sunroof Mazda?

Although I personally wouldnt directly compare this car with the Si sedan, it seems as the GT MS3 would be more comparable to an Audi A3 or a VW given some of its high end options.

Patrick

blu
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 17:55
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Jeff wrote:
It doesn't help that Mazda is having to recall and replace ALL '04 and '05 and even some '06 RX-8s to COMPLETELY REPLACE the engines in them. TWO FULL model years. That's unheard of and is going to be very costly for them in terms of dollars and reputation.



Perhaps that's why Mazda is limiting production of the MS3 to 5K a year; hoping mark-ups and an increase in demand over supply will help soothe the sting of RX-8 recall. ;) j/k


I was so close to owning an RX-8 early last year, but I think the deal fell through. And now I'm glad it did. Sheesh...

blu
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 18:07
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CivicB18 wrote:
Since Im a prime candidate for an Si sedan Ill be testing the MS3 also. I dont really care for wagons but this looks really sporty and agressive, yet has that high end sport compact design....I like it. For the money it might be even a better bargain than the slighty cheaper Si and its seriously fast. I think it runs in the high 13's in stock trim.

On top of that you have 2 models, Sport and the (GT) Grand Touring. The GT offers Bose stereo, auto on/off HID's, leather seats, and a theft deterrent system. The options or accessories are about the same as Hondas, navi, floor mats, auto mirror, ETC. But for 22k PLUS, wheres the sunroof Mazda?

Although I personally wouldnt directly compare this car with the Si sedan, it seems as the GT MS3 would be more comparable to an Audi A3 or a VW given some of its high end options.

Patrick



My guess is to keep weight to a minimum. I think it weighs around or just under 3G's or something like that. That makes for a pretty dang good power-to-weight ratio.

AznSupastar
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 21:33
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i just hate the fact that for $2k more (if they can buy 1), some dude will be a lot faster than our si.

unless we get turbo, but that adds $5k more and no factory warrenty. mazda got us on this one. but still i buy a si just cuz it's much sexier and it's a honda!

CivicB18
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 22:12
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I doubt you will need a turbo to match its acceleration, Im sure the TOV Si can keep up or possibly outrun it.

Patrick

notyper
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Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 22:35
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If Mazda's hp ratings continue their disappointing trend, I'd bet that Project Si makes as much power as the new MS3. If the ratings are accurate (not a common occurence for Mazda), we'll be within 10 hp of the MS3 with no turbo and the Si is 300 lbs lighter.

SC

TraXtaR614
Profile for TraXtaR614
Re: A bit more info on an Si rival...    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-06-2006 23:00
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marecki7 wrote:
I think Mazda is trying to create demand on their products. If you recall from your Econ 101, (supply & demand), when supplies are limited then demand increases = good for mazda, bad for customer (average customer) You know that there are people who will pay top $$$ for something...



Haha i hate to call you out on this, but being a perosn TAKING econ 101 (actaullyecon 2 and 100a) thers some flaws there. in a simple perfectly competitive market. a decrease in supply does not affect demand. the supply curve shifts to the left and the demand curve remains unchanged. I think what you mean is due the the shift, the equilibrium price or prevailing market price for that good increases due to the shortage of supply. Now in the real world, this increase may ACTUALLY decrease demand slightly due to the consumer's tendancy to avoid a good percieved as "overpriced" but you are right in, the end Mazda may make larger revenure, possibly profit (if limited production does not affect prodcution cost significantly) by doing this :P



 
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