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TOV Forums > Professional Motorsports > > Re: MotoGP Spoilers

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Neilap
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MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-04-2006 18:41
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LIVE TABLE
Driver Time
1 V. Rossi (ITA) Yamaha tyres 42:39.610
2 L. Capirossi (ITA) Ducati tyres 42:40.185
3 N. Hayden (USA) Honda tyres 42:40.345
4 D. Pedrosa (ESP) Honda tyres 42:41.617
5 S. Gibernau (ESP) Ducati tyres 42:42.680
6 M. Melandri (ITA) Honda tyres 42:51.403
7 A. Elias (ESP) Honda tyres 42:58.609
8 K. Roberts (USA) KR Honda tyres 42:58.782
9 M. Tamada (JPN) Honda tyres 42:58.841
10 J. Hopkins (USA) Suzuki tyres 42:59.431
11 S. Nakano (JPN) Kawasaki tyres 42:59.473
12 C. Edwards (USA) Yamaha tyres 43:10.288
13 R. De Puniet (FRA) Kawasaki tyres 43:16.808
14 C. Vermeulen (AUS) Suzuki tyres 43:21.322
15 C. Checa (ESP) Yamaha tyres 43:35.866
16 J. Ellison (ENG) Yamaha tyres 43:52.997
17 J. Cardoso (ESP) Ducati tyres 44:45.597
18 A. Hofmann (GER) Ducati tyres not classified
18 C. Stoner (AUS) Honda LCR tyres not classified


What a race!! My God these guys are nothing short of absoulte geniuses. NH did not really seem to be able to threaten for the win. He however rode better than I have ever seen him do. Even his win did not impress me as much. I feel he just lacks aggression. There are many times I saw him check up where someone like VR would have gone for it.

Is Rossi the best ever? Personally, I feel he is unbeatable at this point. Excellent. I dont feel Honda has the best bike anymore. Well they did not have the best bike this weekend. Things seem to have leveled off pretty well as far as bike performance.

I am glad I Tivoed this one! I may watch it twice. Only a Honda win could have made it better.

Roger1
Profile for Roger1
Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-04-2006 20:30
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Ducati is only up there on occassion because of the Bridgestone tyres and the work Bridgestone is doing with them. Honda has the best bike, and the most power. Look at where the other Yamaha is with Colin. VR (the annoying monkeyboy who needs a punch to his face) is on another level compared to anyone else.

I agree that Nicky is putting in nice performances, but he is not at the level of the fastest/smartest competitors in MotoGP. He doesn't lack in effort level, but his riding style on corner-entry is still hurting his performance.

danielgr
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-04-2006 20:38
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Neilap wrote:
LIVE TABLE
Driver Time
1 V. Rossi (ITA) Yamaha tyres 42:39.610
2 L. Capirossi (ITA) Ducati tyres 42:40.185
3 N. Hayden (USA) Honda tyres 42:40.345
4 D. Pedrosa (ESP) Honda tyres 42:41.617
5 S. Gibernau (ESP) Ducati tyres 42:42.680
6 M. Melandri (ITA) Honda tyres 42:51.403
7 A. Elias (ESP) Honda tyres 42:58.609
8 K. Roberts (USA) KR Honda tyres 42:58.782
9 M. Tamada (JPN) Honda tyres 42:58.841
10 J. Hopkins (USA) Suzuki tyres 42:59.431
11 S. Nakano (JPN) Kawasaki tyres 42:59.473
12 C. Edwards (USA) Yamaha tyres 43:10.288
13 R. De Puniet (FRA) Kawasaki tyres 43:16.808
14 C. Vermeulen (AUS) Suzuki tyres 43:21.322
15 C. Checa (ESP) Yamaha tyres 43:35.866
16 J. Ellison (ENG) Yamaha tyres 43:52.997
17 J. Cardoso (ESP) Ducati tyres 44:45.597
18 A. Hofmann (GER) Ducati tyres not classified
18 C. Stoner (AUS) Honda LCR tyres not classified
Is Rossi the best ever? Personally, I feel he is unbeatable at this point. Excellent. I dont feel Honda has the best bike anymore. Well they did not have the best bike this weekend. Things seem to have leveled off pretty well as far as bike performance.


Yeah, race was really great, but I definitelly don't share your last feelings. Ducati's are on different tyres, and that's for me the only reason they are up there.

And then well..., whenever you see a race with somebody like Hayden battling to the end of the race with somebody like Rossi, I can tell you that the bikes are not levelled !!!! Because there is a HUGE gap on the rider's skills, and Rossi really try hard to win this race, even though he was on the first row, and even though he was the only one up there at the end not to have missed the start.

WongKN
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 01:41
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Daniel,

I didn't watch the race as I am in China and they don't have live telecast of the MotoGP. But I am just curious on some points. From what you are saying is it that you feel Rossi had to work hard for his win again this race ? And that he had a good start while the rest didn't had a good start ? It's the 1st time in (I think) 4 or 5 races that Rossi has won a race so I am curious the situation he won this race under.

Honda Dream
Profile for Honda Dream
Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 02:18
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Rossi won the race but he was in no position to pull away from the rivals. Actually Capirossi was close to beat him but yet again smart drive from Rossi, who knew where he could get a slight advantage over LC, allowed him to hold on. VR made some mistakes during the race that made him drop occasionally but in fact he was up in front when it counted. There was however no adventage - definitely the Yamaha bike isn't good that much but Rossi is simply better enough then the others. That might be however close with the season progress.
The only Hondas that could have threaten Rossi where the ones in trouble - Melandri's and Stoner's. They fought for third position and first it was Stoner who crashed out and then Melandri ran wide dropping to 6th position and ending the win chances. Without that it would be a long shot but doable. NH Repsol was fast but yet again as the other say he is not aggressive enough. Dani settled for 4th - I believe he could not have gotten more this time. The good point is that while other bikes seem fast at the beginning Hondas seem to have a slight edge at the end of the race as I had a feeling that both Repsols where closing in on the leaders while in the middle section we were a little bit behind even though putting similar lap times. That might also be however the result of ongoing fight for leader position. Anyway, great race.

danielgr
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 03:15
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WongKN wrote:
Daniel,

I didn't watch the race as I am in China and they don't have live telecast of the MotoGP. But I am just curious on some points. From what you are saying is it that you feel Rossi had to work hard for his win again this race ? And that he had a good start while the rest didn't had a good start ? It's the 1st time in (I think) 4 or 5 races that Rossi has won a race so I am curious the situation he won this race under.


Well, Honda Dream already described what happened a little bit, but just in case, I'll directly answer your questions.

Basically, since the very begining of the race, Rossi went to the front with Gibernau, while Hayden, Capirossi, and Pedrosa all had bad starts and drop quite a lot of places (Capirossi had the worse part).

When Rossi got the front we were many thinking that was the end of the race, but it never hapened. In the past, Sete used to go in the front, with Rossi calmly waiting until the end of the race to put the hammer down and win the race. This time was different, and Gibernau gave Rossi the lead without trying to make a move on him for more than 10 laps. Rossi tried to get away, mainly because he was on softer compounds than most of the other riders, and because he knew Capirossi had a terrible start. But that never happened.

The Honda's progressivelly joined the party after all the other rivals faded as usual, and a group of up to 6 riders formed in the front. Then, the most livelly one, Stoner, had an spectacular crash just after taking the Honda lead.

Short afterwards Capirossi completed his come back, and took the Ducati lead from a fading Gibernau (that ultimatelly lose quite a few seconds on the lead).

After that, the other home rider, Melandri, ran wide while trying to pass Hayden (actually, I believe Melandri was faster, but Hayden was closing nicelly in the turns, and on the straight the Repsol Honda was just faster, Melandri got impatient and made the mistake).

From then on it was a battle between Capirossi and Rossi, the two local heros that were completelly crazy about wining on his home ground. Hayden was there, because the Honda was there, but he never quite seemed to be able to make a move on any of the two italians (as always), and that despite having clearly superior top speed on the long Mugello straight.

Pedrosa was the only rider that never really participate on the leading group battles, and he just seemed to be pleased since the begining to be close to the lead, and to remain close to it until the very end. He knows his time will come, and to me it's impressive showing that much mature approach to racing so soon.
After the race he explained that he was really happy, because Mugello, being one of the most physical circuits of the MotoGP calendar, was quite a challenge for him, and because there was too much people wanting to risk too much, so knowing he could not fight for the very lead, he decided not to enter the fight that might have caused him what happened to Stoner or Melandri.

So that was the race Rossi won, seemingly having to push to the very limit (we never know with Rossi, not as long as he wins, because he may have just played with everybody else to make some nice race for his fans in Italy !!!!) , and not being able to open a gap on the following 4 to 6 riders despite having been on the lead since the very begining of the race.

We'll see what happens in Spain in two weeks time.

WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 04:37
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Thanks guys. Spain in 2 weeks time then. Rather surprisingly, while we have live telecasts of MotoGP races in Malaysia, there don't seem to be any here in Shanghai. Or maybe I didn't check the channels carefully enough (there are almost 60 public TV channels) :).
JMU R1
Profile for JMU R1
Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 11:05
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Nicky really was in position to win this one but I think on one occasion where he left it really late coming into turn 1 and turn 2 he backed out of it rather than hanging on and taking a gamble. Of course, had he crashed out that would've really hurt him in the championship.

I would've liked to see Nicky beat the Italians on their home track but again he's riding a smart championship, especially at a track he's usually done poorly at. When we start getting on tracks Nicky likes we'll see where he's at.

Still, Marco or Dani could very well put together a string of wins to challenge for the title too. Either way Honda is all but guaranteed to win the constructor's title this year.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 11:50
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JMU R1 wrote:
I would've liked to see Nicky beat the Italians on their home track but again he's riding a smart championship, especially at a track he's usually done poorly at. When we start getting on tracks Nicky likes we'll see where he's at.


Oky JMU, so just for the record, and so that we can remember it in the futur. Appart from Laguna Seca, which are the races that Hayden likes ?? Just to see how many of them is he able to win this year ...

JMU R1
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 11:57
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danielgr wrote:
JMU R1 wrote:
I would've liked to see Nicky beat the Italians on their home track but again he's riding a smart championship, especially at a track he's usually done poorly at. When we start getting on tracks Nicky likes we'll see where he's at.


Oky JMU, so just for the record, and so that we can remember it in the futur. Appart from Laguna Seca, which are the races that Hayden likes ?? Just to see how many of them is he able to win this year ...


Philip Island, Saschenring, and Brno. Those are the places I'd expect him to have his strongest chances for a win other than Laguna.

danielgr
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 12:07
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JMU R1 wrote:
danielgr wrote:
JMU R1 wrote:
I would've liked to see Nicky beat the Italians on their home track but again he's riding a smart championship, especially at a track he's usually done poorly at. When we start getting on tracks Nicky likes we'll see where he's at.


Oky JMU, so just for the record, and so that we can remember it in the futur. Appart from Laguna Seca, which are the races that Hayden likes ?? Just to see how many of them is he able to win this year ...


Philip Island, Saschenring, and Brno. Those are the places I'd expect him to have his strongest chances for a win other than Laguna.


Four good races out of 17 is not much but..., luckily for him he already got rid of 6 of his non good ones and he is the leader of the championship !!!!

Hope for the better (because he rides a Honda), but I don't think he will win any of those races except MAYBE Laguna Seca.

Neilap
Profile for Neilap
Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 15:12
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In this race then the bikes seemed similar. If Ducati's pace was down to tires it does not matter. Its still a part of the bike. Rossi has not always had races easy. There are many occasions where he has had to fight. In hindsight the Yamaha must not totally be to his liking because he made more mistakes than usual.

As for NH, I still feel he can win races. I think he lacks confidence in his bike. He has had the most podiums this year of all the riders. Hopefully when he needs to take more chances he will. He does ride a lot more carefully now than his days in the AMA.

My opinion differs from some here about him. I hope I am right and he begins to win. He has progressed though so its not all bad.

roninsi02
Profile for roninsi02
Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 21:52
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All of the other Moto Gp riders have alot more experience then NH dont they? He came from AMA while the others came from 250cc which races on MotoGP tracks so of course they have more experience. They probably have ridden on those tracks since they were small children. If Nicky really was as terrible as you say he is I think Honda would have dumped him like they dumped Max.
He's no Rossi but really who is? Hes on a different developement bike and hes been very consistent so far this year.

JMU R1
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 22:12
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Well this is Nicky's 4th year in GP so he knows the tracks by now. Its starting to show in that he's consistently getting on the podium. The trick will be to start turning podiums into wins.
danielgr
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 23:10
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Neilap wrote:
As for NH, I still feel he can win races. I think he lacks confidence in his bike. He has had the most podiums this year of all the riders. Hopefully when he needs to take more chances he will. He does ride a lot more carefully now than his days in the AMA.

My opinion differs from some here about him. I hope I am right and he begins to win. He has progressed though so its not all bad.


Hey, don't take it that bad. This is American forum so it's normal that mosf of you like him. If you go to an italian forum you'll see that the image they have from Nicky is not much different from "fucking pretty american boy without blood in the veins".
Of course I've never said such things (because I don't think it), and I believe that if guys like Rossi or Pedrosa were not around, Nicky could be world champion, and he could win races. The problem is that it's not about making progress, it's about the raw material being made different.

But we've been having this discussion for years now, and all this board have kept on saying "give him time, he's getting better, he's learning, he's improving". Well, apparently he's not yet there, and he has still to prove me wrong, and as usual, I'll be happy about him doing that. But I'll keep waiting for the results and the races to speak for themselves. So far I've been doing well with my predictions about him.

Also, don't forget, that he has been 4 years in MotoGP, but that's almost as many as anybody else. And don't forget that current MotoGP bikes are much closer to 1000cc four-stroke superbikes than the old 500cc were, same goes when comparing to 125cc or 250cc. What were the bikes Hayden was riding in AMA ??

Again, even if he wins..., do you guys think he would if being in a satellyte Honda team? Or in Ducati ? Or in Yamaha? Personally I don't think so, but we may never know it. In any case, he still have to win with the best team/bike.

And for the comments about needing time to learn the tracks..., com'on, 4 years, how much do you want? Pedrosa has been riding 5 years including the lower classes, and four of them with 2-strokes, infinitelly less powerfull and heavy... I don't think that Hayden needs to learn where are the turns, and for everything else, everybody that has ridden a bike knows that with a different bike the circuit has to be learnt again from zero (with a really different bike). That's not the case for Hayden.

As for being on a development bike..., well, maybe that's the reason why this year he is doing better than past years. He has something that other Honda riders don't. So, is it a coincidence that he is doing better than ever ?? Or the bike has something to do with it ?? For the moment, Melandri was already saying something like "I couldn't get pass Hayden because his bike was faster than mine". I guess the ethernal fight between Honda riders for getting the best of Honda is back on the news.
Of course we will never know unless Hayden changes to the normal version and suddenly starts wining races.


JMU R1
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-05-2006 23:53
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Yeah I'll definitely agree that it doesn't take 4 years to learn tracks. One quality of a good racer is to adapt to new tracks quickly.

As for the development duties, Melandri had the option of riding the 06 bike and turned it down. Biaggi didn't like it and neither did Sete. Both of them complained about the HRC development parts in one way or another but basically it boils down to the fact that they didn't agree with HRC's philosophy. Let me explain.

HRC has always used GP racing as a playground to experiment with new ideas and to further their knowledge. Sometimes this means trying to do something the hard way (do more with less) or experimenting with a concept during the race season. Of course they want results but sometimes they putting learning above results.

Eddie Lawson had a fundamental difference of opinion with Honda over this back in the late 80's. Even before that, Honda's NR500 (which was a 4-stroke trying to compete with 2-strokes using the same displacement and cylinder count) ended up never being successful but they spent a lot of time trying anyway because they wanted to stick to their ideal of 4-stroke technology. In the end it resulted in them coming up with several innovative new technologies.

So fast forward to the modern era and they're doing the same thing. Biaggi didn't agree with it, Sete didn't agree with it, and Melandri didn't agree with it. Nicky may have also opted to pass on the 06 bike but he chose not to because he believed that it ultimately had more potential than the 05 RCV. I think that was a testament to his faith in HRC.

Maybe he'll fail but one of the HRC brass has already said that Nicky has outperformed their expectations with the 06 RCV. If they can realize the potential of the bike I think Nicky will have rightly earned a championship by developing the bike himself. Some detractors will say, "he only won because he had the best bike". Well, he developed that bike so he deserves it just as much as anyone else.

P.S. If Melandri thinks that Nicky beat him because he had a faster bike, that's his own fault because he could've been riding the same thing.

danielgr
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-06-2006 01:56
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JMU R1 wrote:
Yeah I'll definitely agree that it doesn't take 4 years to learn tracks. One quality of a good racer is to adapt to new tracks quickly.

As for the development duties, Melandri had the option of riding the 06 bike and turned it down. Biaggi didn't like it and neither did Sete. Both of them complained about the HRC development parts in one way or another but basically it boils down to the fact that they didn't agree with HRC's philosophy. Let me explain.

HRC has always used GP racing as a playground to experiment with new ideas and to further their knowledge. Sometimes this means trying to do something the hard way (do more with less) or experimenting with a concept during the race season. Of course they want results but sometimes they putting learning above results.

Eddie Lawson had a fundamental difference of opinion with Honda over this back in the late 80's. Even before that, Honda's NR500 (which was a 4-stroke trying to compete with 2-strokes using the same displacement and cylinder count) ended up never being successful but they spent a lot of time trying anyway because they wanted to stick to their ideal of 4-stroke technology. In the end it resulted in them coming up with several innovative new technologies.

So fast forward to the modern era and they're doing the same thing. Biaggi didn't agree with it, Sete didn't agree with it, and Melandri didn't agree with it. Nicky may have also opted to pass on the 06 bike but he chose not to because he believed that it ultimately had more potential than the 05 RCV. I think that was a testament to his faith in HRC.

Maybe he'll fail but one of the HRC brass has already said that Nicky has outperformed their expectations with the 06 RCV. If they can realize the potential of the bike I think Nicky will have rightly earned a championship by developing the bike himself. Some detractors will say, "he only won because he had the best bike". Well, he developed that bike so he deserves it just as much as anyone else.

P.S. If Melandri thinks that Nicky beat him because he had a faster bike, that's his own fault because he could've been riding the same thing.


I did not know that other people were eligible for riding the developping bike, but in any case, I agree on everything you said.

If Hayden did it and others had the opportunity for sharing duties with him but declined it, then Hayden will have earned his right to have a better bike, specially having helped to develop it.

But still, that would be a proffesionnal choice, and it might have been the right one (and I appreciate it because it follows Honda as you just mentioned), but it does not make him a better rider (although maybe a better proffessional).

Also, don't be too hard on Melandri. Past year was his first with the Honda (actually, first time ever in a Honda), and he spent some of it getting use to bike and team, it's normal that for his second one, he'd rather try to evolve on what he achieved past year, rather than asuming more mature tasks (like bike development). Hayden is much more experienced with both the Honda bike and the Team, and in a way, being on Repsol team, "he had to do it" (because this year Pedrosa could certainly not being up to it).

JMU R1
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Re: MotoGP Spoilers    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-06-2006 10:37
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You can almost never determine unequivocally who is the better rider or driver because equipment always plays a factor. Rossi is the rare exception but think about it, do you think Doohan would have won as many championships if he were not aboard the all conquering NSR500? How about Senna? Honda power dominated that era of Formula 1 and he was in the best chassis with the best engine. Schumacher? Same thing.

I think its kind of a cheap shot to try to take away anything from someone who wins at the top level of motorsport because they had the "best equipment". Truth is the pilot and machine together wins the championship, not either on their own. In this case Nicky would deserve all the credit (along with HRC) if he were to win the championship because he developed the bike that 3 others turned down.

As for Melandri I picked him as the man to lead the Honda charge this year over Nicky because of his break out speed but he just seems to struggle with setup and consistency. Maybe he felt the pressure of developing the 06 RCV would be too much but to win championships you've got to be willing to take risks and handle the pressure. No risk, no reward. I still think Marco could win it all though, same with Dani.


 
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