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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?

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thorium
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If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2006 14:15
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Acura/Honda need to do something about their lack of RWD. I'm not technical so I'm posing this question, those with a good understanding of the SH-AWD technicals please chime in!

Can SH-AWD be modified so its much more rear-biased? As I understand it, its 70/30 front/rear biased before detecting any slip, and it will give more power to the rear wheels and/or a single rear wheel during acceleration or turning.

Most people say with normal driving you'll never notice it on the RL, and its effects on the RDX have yet to be seen.

Can Honda tweak the SH-AWD system so its rear biased and it kicks in during normal driving conditions a lot more, not just taking corners super fast or wide open throttle?

It will be interesting to see any differences on the RDX's implentation of SH-AWD to see how adaptable/flexible it is and see if they have ratcheted the system up so it is active in more situations than the current RL.

thorium
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-23-2006 14:18
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Also, all the recent reports are saying that the new NSX will have a form of SH-AWD.

So if they put it in the NSX, they've GOT to make it more rear-biased right?

ocspray
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2006 04:05
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I'm sure Honda engineers can make SH-AWD put the power down wherever they deem it appropriate. Has SH-AWD diminished your driving experience?
Dren
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2006 08:32
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Why does Acura need to do something about not having RWD? Do their current cars perform bad without it?
thorium
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2006 10:16
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Acura needs RWD not because the average person needs/wants it, but because the INFLUENCERS want it (i.e., car writers, enthusiasists, reviewers, etc).

Its always a complaint about Honda/Acura from these people, and their feedback does effect other people.

I have never driven an RL so I havent driven SH-AWD.

BB25
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2006 11:10
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But the $1.2mil Buggetti 16.4 has a modified Audi AWD drivetrain which is FWD biased and I don't see the INFLUENCERS complaining about it.
Demitri434
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2006 12:27
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Ya but ask people who are enthusiasts what they think of the veyron. All it is is a straightline ICBM. It will not be able to out handle other cars in that class. It weighs tons and that bias isn't helping its cause. Honda needs to introduce RWD or RWD biased awd if they are going to make real M3, S4/ 6/ 8, and AMG beating cars. As for the NSX have SH-AWD If it is not at least rwd biased I don't think it will sell. Granted the current hondas don't do that badly without it but they would be better with it (RWD). Acura could then make a RWD RSX with 230+hp and be able to put it down effectively. They only Honda that really holds a very special place in the performance arena is RWD (S2000). Just imagine if that 240 hp was going to the front wheels?? Can you say ridiculous wheel spin.
-Alex

Demitri434
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2006 12:28
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Ya but ask people who are enthusiasts what they think of the veyron. All it is is a straightline ICBM. It will not be able to out handle other cars in that class. It weighs tons and that bias isn't helping its cause. Honda needs to introduce RWD or RWD biased awd if they are going to make real M3, S4/ 6/ 8, and AMG beating cars. As for the NSX have SH-AWD If it is not at least rwd biased I don't think it will sell. Granted the current hondas don't do that badly without it but they would be better with it (RWD). Acura could then make a RWD RSX with 230+hp and be able to put it down effectively. They only Honda that really holds a very special place in the performance arena is RWD (S2000). Just imagine if that 240 hp was going to the front wheels?? Can you say ridiculous wheel spin.
-Alex

Santoki
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2006 13:48
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to me, it's all about driving fun. assuming everything else is equal, an all wheel drive car will almost always out handle a rear or front wheel drive car, if you're only talking numbers. you can't defy the laws of physics. however, is it fun to throw an all wheel drive car around a track? not to me. neither is a front wheel drive car (although it's still more fun than an all wheel drive car). i do wish honda would make a rwd car very similar to my rsx-s. i like the general weight of my car, and imho, it looks a hell alot better than anything in the current honda lineup. but what i like most of all is its practicality. i can't tell you how many large, odd-shaped things i have hauled with my rsx. i don't think there is anything out there, for any amount of money that matches the performance and practicality of the rsx. it's light (relatively speaking), it has a smooth reving light four banger, and modest performance. i just wished this car came in rwd form, because despite everything good i've said about it, i don't like how you can still feel the weight of the nose when you are going into a turn, i don't like how i can't put all the power to the ground when the front wheels are busy trying to cope with all the weight in the front while steering. despite its lazy feeling engine and heavy feel, i get none of these feelings in my wife's z3. i would've gotten the s2k had it been a more practical car.
so yes, i wish honda would give me a rear wheel drive fast-back coupe.

ocspray
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-28-2006 14:47
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thorium wrote:
Acura needs RWD not because the average person needs/wants it, but because the INFLUENCERS want it (i.e., car writers, enthusiasists, reviewers, etc).

Its always a complaint about Honda/Acura from these people, and their feedback does effect other people.

I have never driven an RL so I havent driven SH-AWD.


Instead of focusing on giving people what they think they need, maybe Honda should focus on making cars that out perform the competition, then they can change the opinions of pig-headed people. From your posts, it seems you're in the MRF (Magazine Racing Federation), so Honda needs to work on you as well. IMO, Honda needs to improve overall performance and improve the trim level for their luxury offereings in the Acura line. Whether they do this with FWD (unlikely), RWD (possibly), SH-AWD (most likely), or something else is immaterial, as long as they deliver the goods.

Jeff wrote a fine article on the subject:
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=1&article_id=514370

Demitri434
Profile for Demitri434
Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2006 02:36
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But will they??? I don't think so. Honda has no balls when it comes to this kind of thing. Im just going on current trends. I just don't think they see their success in the performance vehicles because of what they are up against and how much money they are making now without diving into the performance game. I mean they do have some performanc offerrings but they aren't exactly dream cars in performance (except for the S2000 in my book). The next NSX will be cool but lets be realistic who the hell is going to buy it?? I drive a RSX Type-S because it is affordable performance. The NSX hasn't been and wont be. They seem to be killing off the RSX instead of doing something interesting with it. It also seems like they are going to drop the S2000. I just don't get it. They think oh there happy they got their 15000 SI's which they waited 10 months to get. The Acura's are sporty don't get me wrong but they are performance vehicles (M3, S 3/4/6/8, AMG). Why doesn't honda make performanc vehicles more affordable? I mean that what they do right?? Take what the Germans do and do it as well and make it cheaper right?? HONDA HAS NO BALLS. rant over. One of my pet peeves with honda. They can do these things. They just choose not to.
-Alex

roninsi02
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2006 17:36
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Then of course their die hards will say man max / machine min. Which imo translates to preaching sport luxury maximum / making performance cars minimum.

SH-AWD will only add un-needed weight and is a band aid for lack of rwd. The RL wouldnt need SH-AWD if it were rwd. It would be 400 lbs less and that in turn should help every single performance measurement. Imagine how crappy the TL would handle if it were even heavier. Oh wait we might not have to if they decontent the RL. Sure the TL can handle very well but is it as fun to drive as a 3 series? No. Why? FWD torque steer and poorer steering feel because the front wheels have to do both steer and provide power down to the road.

I can just see it now. With Hondas limp wristed sporting intentions we'll see a 4000 lbs fwd based NSX with sh-awd making 500 hp out of a 5.0 v-10 with a 5 spd transmission.
10 years after launch it will have 510 hp and a 6 speed. 5 years after that it might have a Mp3 adapter or something like that.


Patuww
Profile for Patuww
Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2006 17:48
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Not true, customers want it. Try taking a FWD, turn right out of a driveway in to traffic and floor it. Unfortunately this is about the only thing annoying about my TSX, the fact it has FWD.
ocspray
Profile for ocspray
Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-29-2006 21:16
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Hmmm...my Si's LSD seems to alleviate quite a bit of torque steer. At a minimum, maybe all FWD Honda/Acura products should step up to a standard LSD, much as Subaru has made AWD standard. It wouldn't address the RWD issue, but it would be good way to promote the brands.
roninsi02
Profile for roninsi02
Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 00:19
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Thats because your car has no torque. If you had a V-6 w/270 hp 220 lbft youd have a problem. Instead you have 197 hp 140ish lbft.
ocspray
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 00:40
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I understand, which is why I said LSD would help - not solve - the problem of torque steer.
ocspray
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 00:45
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roninsi02 wrote:
I can just see it now. With Hondas limp wristed sporting intentions we'll see a 4000 lbs fwd based NSX with sh-awd making 500 hp out of a 5.0 v-10 with a 5 spd transmission.
10 years after launch it will have 510 hp and a 6 speed. 5 years after that it might have a Mp3 adapter or something like that.

That's pretty harsh considering their recent engineering successes. Who knows, they may have a luxury coupe/sedan design waiting in the wings that'll catch folks as unaware as the Civic and Ridgeline.

FMKorg
Profile for FMKorg
Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 01:33
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Demitri434 wrote:
But will they??? I don't think so. Honda has no balls when it comes to this kind of thing. Im just going on current trends. I just don't think they see their success in the performance vehicles because of what they are up against and how much money they are making now without diving into the performance game. I mean they do have some performanc offerrings but they aren't exactly dream cars in performance (except for the S2000 in my book). The next NSX will be cool but lets be realistic who the hell is going to buy it?? I drive a RSX Type-S because it is affordable performance. The NSX hasn't been and wont be. They seem to be killing off the RSX instead of doing something interesting with it. It also seems like they are going to drop the S2000. I just don't get it. They think oh there happy they got their 15000 SI's which they waited 10 months to get. The Acura's are sporty don't get me wrong but they are performance vehicles (M3, S 3/4/6/8, AMG). Why doesn't honda make performanc vehicles more affordable? I mean that what they do right?? Take what the Germans do and do it as well and make it cheaper right?? HONDA HAS NO BALLS. rant over. One of my pet peeves with honda. They can do these things. They just choose not to.
-Alex


I agree 100%

Its difficult to understand why not one Acura sedan is RWD. Toyota and Nissan understood the need for it in their luxury divisions and don't have to worry about criticisims or complaints from enthusiasts. Its been 20yrs now and a RWD sedan may or may not be on the drawing board for Acura.
I still have my GSR but am unable to move up and stay with Acura. I have a 328is as well and I may trade it in for one of the yet to be released 3 series coupes or possibly the next G35.

I think its okay for the TSX to be FWD because its a n/a 4 banger but the RL's SHAWD should be rear biased and the TL should be RWD with AWD as an option. I've driven the TL and if it were RWD it would be sooo much more fun. Yes I'd have a big smile on my face as I murder dudes in my posh Acura with a Vtec V6 pushin the rear wheels.

By the way if Hyundai comes out with RWD V8 sedan before Acura.........its gonna hurt real bad. If my Lexus fanboy friend mentions it to me I'll have no choice but to put my head down and walk away quietly. I will then ponder as to "why" and "how" this has happened.

Patuww
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 11:40
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Thats because your car has no torque. If you had a V-6 w/270 hp 220 lbft youd have a problem. Instead you have 197 hp 140ish lbft.


If this is in reference to the TSX, it is because the front wheels get no traction and just spin up the inside tire. LSD would help but not fix the problem, but more torque would be much worse. I also have a S2000 and believe me, RWD is superior. I used to think front wheel drive was just as competent, but I think this no more.

With all of the TSC/VSA technologies, RWD can even do well in inclement weather.

Wizard
Profile for Wizard
Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 12:55
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roninsi02 wrote:
Thats because your car has no torque. If you had a V-6 w/270 hp 220 lbft youd have a problem. Instead you have 197 hp 140ish lbft.

Torque at the engine, or at the wheels, while not forgetting the curb weight? You've taken two important aspects out to present your opinion. In case you missed one of them, that would be gearing.

Demitri434
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 13:04
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Inclement not winter. Here in the North East it doesn't make much sense to have a RWD car unless you have a winter car as well. I mean sure if you know how to drive RWD cars well you should be fine most of the time. But sometimes its a joke when I cruise by all the spun out BMWs and see all the other RWD cars barely staying on the road. AWD is a response to those of us who have a winter.
-Alex

alva
Profile for alva
Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 13:20
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Last week, on one of these car show, can remember which one, Hyundai stated that they will be coming out with a V8. Not sure if it will be RWD, but definitely a V8.
Varmint
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 13:29
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FMKorg wrote:
By the way if Hyundai comes out with RWD V8 sedan before Acura.........its gonna hurt real bad. If my Lexus fanboy friend mentions it to me I'll have no choice but to put my head down and walk away quietly. I will then ponder as to "why" and "how" this has happened.

And here we have the real reason for all the V8 talk.

ocspray
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 15:19
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Varmint wrote:
FMKorg wrote:
By the way if Hyundai comes out with RWD V8 sedan before Acura.........its gonna hurt real bad. If my Lexus fanboy friend mentions it to me I'll have no choice but to put my head down and walk away quietly. I will then ponder as to "why" and "how" this has happened.

And here we have the real reason for all the V8 talk.


Another member of the MRF (Magazine Racing Federation)...

roninsi02
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 17:00
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The civic's not exactly light on its feet and barely makes peak torque north of 5k. Unless you really launch the car off the line you wont feel it at a stop light. A fwd V6 is a whole different ball game from a fwd i4.
siegen
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-30-2006 17:13
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Patuww wrote:
Not true, customers want it. Try taking a FWD, turn right out of a driveway in to traffic and floor it. Unfortunately this is about the only thing annoying about my TSX, the fact it has FWD.


I know what you mean, try doing that and all you get is inside wheel spinning =\ Better tires will also help with that problem.

FMKorg
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-31-2006 01:54
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ocspray wrote:
Varmint wrote:
FMKorg wrote:
By the way if Hyundai comes out with RWD V8 sedan before Acura.........its gonna hurt real bad. If my Lexus fanboy friend mentions it to me I'll have no choice but to put my head down and walk away quietly. I will then ponder as to "why" and "how" this has happened.

And here we have the real reason for all the V8 talk.


Another member of the MRF (Magazine Racing Federation)...


Yeah me and my friends read mags all day. I wonder what you're doing here? Are you part of the Honda racing federation.

FMKorg
Profile for FMKorg
Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-31-2006 02:49
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Varmint wrote:
FMKorg wrote:
By the way if Hyundai comes out with RWD V8 sedan before Acura.........its gonna hurt real bad. If my Lexus fanboy friend mentions it to me I'll have no choice but to put my head down and walk away quietly. I will then ponder as to "why" and "how" this has happened.

And here we have the real reason for all the V8 talk.


It was partly a joke Varmint lol. I was expecting to see my post in quotes with lol's. I stand by my Hyundai statement but the Lexus fanboy part was a joke.

Anyway, I do have a relative who is an enthusiast and owns 3 cars. He could care less about a V8 but he was the first to tell me about RWD many yrs back. He told me of the advantages and disadvantages of it. He learned of it from his uncle and did'nt believe and argued with him until he got his hands on a used 280Z and then understood.

About the V8, it has a halo effect and Acura needs it. Thus the reason Hyundai is considering selling one.

Dren
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-31-2006 07:27
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Honda needs to put casters on the front and independantly driven rear wheels. That way it can do 360s like those riding lawn mowers and also it will be RWD. I mean, how can you out perform that???
Selektaa
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Re: If not RWD, Better SH-AWD?    (Score: 1, Normal) 03-31-2006 09:03
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Dren wrote:
Honda needs to put casters on the front and independantly driven rear wheels. That way it can do 360s like those riding lawn mowers and also it will be RWD. I mean, how can you out perform that???


LOL


 
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