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TOV Forums > Civic > > Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si

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blue99si
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Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 10:09
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Why oh Why can't Honda bring us something that has this type of styling?

http://www.freshalloy.com/site/cars/nissan/2005/nsc-hatch/home.shtml

Compare the current Si or even the new 06 Si to this and I think everyone can see why Honda seems to have lost its way in the market they created.....If the current Si looked like this car it would have sold like hot cakes. The Hatch market is hot and getting hotter and Honda seems to be about ready to trip over their own Marketing stupidity.....

Anyone who thinks otherwise should look at the competition.....Honda has yet to realize that people do not want bland styling.....do they really think that if you make your hatch back look like a minivan that their target market will embrace the vehicle? Bland styling are for people interested in owning an appliance not an automobile. Has Honda decided to get into the refrigerator market? I am sure they could build the best damn refrigerator on the market but, come on......we want automobile styling!

By the way this web site also had 4 door Civic sedan pictures.....Beyond the dual exhaust on a 140hp car is anyone else excited about this one? I want 200hp with a 6 spd in a smaller 4 door car. I am shopping for something that has 4 doors not two but, the idea of owning something like this Nissan could be intriguing... Honda and Acura might just lose me as a customer......I have been loyal to this company but, am really growing tired of not being able to get their hot products and being force fed bland coupe or sedan styling......Ok, Honda I admit it, I have a family but, does that have to mean that I have to drive a damn Minivan? Bring me the Euro 5 door and keep me as a customer....Knowing how Honda thinks they will bring us the three door hatch instead of the 5 door hatch to compete with this Nissan....Anyone have any ideas how to get a job in Honda's Marketing group? Whatever happened to creative thinking, strategic products and hot styling? Honda Europe is far more progressive and seems to be light years ahead styling wise verse the US Honda. Does anyone else feel this way?

(Sorry for the rant but, it makes me damn angry to see Honda and Acura ignore this market completely)



Last edited by RyanDL on 04-11-2005 12:25
newdecon
Profile for newdecon
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 10:20
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I agree 100%. Honda does not realize they are loosing the customers who put them in the spotlight (sport compact segment)

Who the hell is honda using for their market research? who is doing product planning? My suggestion, is get yourselves checked in at The Betty Ford Clinic. Whatever you're smoking is getting to your heads!

That sequential Golf is looking mighty nice!

meature
Profile for meature
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 12:07
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Great post, well said.
I think Honda/Acura focuses too much on limiting competition between their models instead of just giving the customer what they want. They are too internally focused about positioning their models in an internal line-up and not focused enough externally on customers and competitiors. If Honda offered a 200 hp five door CIVIC they would clean-up. Would it compete with Accord/TSX, yes a little, but deal with it. This will pressure the other models be even better. As you point out if Honda doesn't do it someone else will...Nissan, Mazda (they came very close with the 3 hatch).

JMU R1
Profile for JMU R1
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 12:15
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I'm still not sure that the Euro 5 door would be successful here because of its divisive styling but I definitely agree that we need a 4-door Si. I think there are a lot of Honda owners who were CRX, Integra, and Prelude owners in the past who like to stay with the Honda sport compacts but cannot because they need something with 4 doors for the family.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 12:40
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Hmm, well style is a personal preference, but you're talking about hatchbacks looking like minivans and that thing looks a lot like a Quest if you ask me. Plus, take off the showcar dubs and fender flares, and how is the styling going to hold up?


Btw, the photo on that site isn't the Civic sedan - it's the restyled '06 Accord.


otherwise, I hear ya on the complaint. It's a long standing issue I've held - the TSX does me well, but I know it can be out of reach for a lot of buyers. Why no Civic Si 4-door??? The Integra GS-R sedan was a nice option but it seems to have been timed poorly for the market. A solid sport wagon or a fastback sedan (like the old Euro accords or 1st gen integras, or current Mazda6) would be a cool choice.

blue99si wrote:
Why oh Why can't Honda bring us something that has this type of styling?

http://www.freshalloy.com/site/cars/nissan/2005/nsc-hatch/home.shtml

Compare the current Si or even the new 06 Si to this and I think everyone can see why Honda seems to have lost its way in the market they created.....If the current Si looked like this car it would have sold like hot cakes. The Hatch market is hot and getting hotter and Honda seems to be about ready to trip over their own Marketing stupidity.....

Anyone who thinks otherwise should look at the competition.....Honda has yet to realize that people do not want bland styling.....do they really think that if you make your hatch back look like a minivan that their target market will embrace the vehicle? Bland styling are for people interested in owning an appliance not an automobile. Has Honda decided to get into the refrigerator market? I am sure they could build the best damn refrigerator on the market but, come on......we want automobile styling!

By the way this web site also had 4 door Civic sedan pictures.....Beyond the dual exhaust on a 140hp car is anyone else excited about this one? I want 200hp with a 6 spd in a smaller 4 door car. I am shopping for something that has 4 doors not two but, the idea of owning something like this Nissan could be intriguing... Honda and Acura might just lose me as a customer......I have been loyal to this company but, am really growing tired of not being able to get their hot products and being force fed bland coupe or sedan styling......Ok, Honda I admit it, I have a family but, does that have to mean that I have to drive a damn Minivan? Bring me the Euro 5 door and keep me as a customer....Knowing how Honda thinks they will bring us the three door hatch instead of the 5 door hatch to compete with this Nissan....Anyone have any ideas how to get a job in Honda's Marketing group? Whatever happened to creative thinking, strategic products and hot styling? Honda Europe is far more progressive and seems to be light years ahead styling wise verse the US Honda. Does anyone else feel this way?

(Sorry for the rant but, it makes me damn angry to see Honda and Acura ignore this market completely)



ACCORDLOVER
Profile for ACCORDLOVER
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 12:55
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WOW Are you serious Jeff? That is a sexy looking Accord if it is. Love the dual exhaust setup not to mention the rear LED brake light, and the taillight. They finally fixed the smiling "butt" on the Accord. Im wondering what kind of changes they made to the front and interior.

This is what the Accord should have looked like from the beginning.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 13:38
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Well.... I like my Si hatch.

And there's nothing wrong with it that (a) a price reduction or (b) more power couldn't fix.

Again, for the umpteenth time, most folks that complain about the EP3 have not driven it nor even sat in it.

Then there's the subgroup that call the hatch a mini-minivan (and I though that included you).

Plus AHM marketing confused the whole deal when it didn't produce the Si hatch in NA and instead put it on the 2 door coupe. This after a history that all S/Si's were hatchbacks back to '81. Indeed the first gen Civic CVCC 5 speed was the hatchback. Remember that the first gen Civics came in wagon, three door hatchback and two door coupe (with a small trunk door).

So how can you deal with all of that baggage that the Si moniker conjures?

First of all, the hatch is not selling very well in NA. The five door style, which is my favorite btw, is just about dead. And the small wagon has been taken over by small SUVs or low balled Explorers.

By and by, the compact five door is dead in our country, and only 3+ dollar a gallon gas will bring it back.

Maybe.

So, forget the hatch. The only way a hatch will sell would be as a $25K CTR. And then it'd be small volume.

So, this brings it back to the four door 200bhp Si. Great idea, really, but again, I don't think it will sell in great numbers either. Otherwise examine -as Jeff noted- the sales of the GSR sedan.

Abysmal.

Now, I'm all for AHM to start fragmenting the Civic line a bit more. In essence, offer lots more combinations. And yes, maybe offer a 180 or 200bhp motor in a sedan and coupe Si version. Maybe even offer a 5 door too?

But I think AHM's answer to a five door Civic is the Element or CRV.

Anyhow.. back to the hatch. Many times I've looked at my EP3 and wondered if they could put it short back doors like the ones offered in the Saturn coupe. You know, those half doors that open suicide style... like the Element too. That addition, plus 180bhp, 16 inch rims and an MT6 would go a long way to make a new Si hatch.

And that Nissan hatch might sell 2000 per year in the US.... as much as I like the Group B rally cars, the insurance on something like that would be astronomical for young people, and older folks might just pass it over for a less extrovert design.

That Nissan might sell magazines but not much more.

Jader88EX
Profile for Jader88EX
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 16:47
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Can you give me a link to the Civic 4 door on that site, i cant find it anywhere
hondaracer
Profile for hondaracer
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 18:12
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something about it looks faintly 'Cadillac' for some reason...
aznstuart
Profile for aznstuart
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 19:14
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TonyE wrote:

But I think AHM's answer to a five door Civic is the Element or CRV.




That's the point! We want the Utility of an SUV but the Fuel economy of a Sedan. Then we get a wagon. The Element uses as much fuel as the Ridgeline! The CR-V is getting better but will never reach the coveted 30mpg mark that wagons/hatchbacks can. That's why we want a wagon/hatchback.






aznstuart
Profile for aznstuart
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 19:17
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Jeff wrote:
Hmm, well style is a personal preference, but you're talking about hatchbacks looking like minivans and that thing looks a lot like a Quest if you ask me. Plus, take off the showcar dubs and fender flares, and how is the styling going to hold up?


Btw, the photo on that site isn't the Civic sedan - it's the restyled '06 Accord.


otherwise, I hear ya on the complaint. It's a long standing issue I've held - the TSX does me well, but I know it can be out of reach for a lot of buyers. Why no Civic Si 4-door??? The Integra GS-R sedan was a nice option but it seems to have been timed poorly for the market. A solid sport wagon or a fastback sedan (like the old Euro accords or 1st gen integras, or current Mazda6) would be a cool choice.



Are you sure, Jeff, that that's the refreshed Accord? Would that be a little too dramatic to be an Accord, especially since this is only a refresh?

I personally was fine with the rear of the Accord, just not the front.

aznstuart
Profile for aznstuart
H    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 19:30
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If you look really really closely, you can see the covered up "H" emblem right below the middle brake light.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 19:58
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aznstuart wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Hmm, well style is a personal preference, but you're talking about hatchbacks looking like minivans and that thing looks a lot like a Quest if you ask me. Plus, take off the showcar dubs and fender flares, and how is the styling going to hold up?


Btw, the photo on that site isn't the Civic sedan - it's the restyled '06 Accord.


otherwise, I hear ya on the complaint. It's a long standing issue I've held - the TSX does me well, but I know it can be out of reach for a lot of buyers. Why no Civic Si 4-door??? The Integra GS-R sedan was a nice option but it seems to have been timed poorly for the market. A solid sport wagon or a fastback sedan (like the old Euro accords or 1st gen integras, or current Mazda6) would be a cool choice.



Are you sure, Jeff, that that's the refreshed Accord? Would that be a little too dramatic to be an Accord, especially since this is only a refresh?

I personally was fine with the rear of the Accord, just not the front.



It appears to be a Honda. And if it's a Honda, I'm 99% sure it's an Accord. As we reported over a year ago(has it been that long?!) the '06 Accord is going through a more significant than normal MMC. As I heard way back, the rear end is being revised heavily. So that looks like a pretty heavy revision to me.

ACCORDLOVER
Profile for ACCORDLOVER
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 20:30
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Jeff wrote:
aznstuart wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Hmm, well style is a personal preference, but you're talking about hatchbacks looking like minivans and that thing looks a lot like a Quest if you ask me. Plus, take off the showcar dubs and fender flares, and how is the styling going to hold up?




Btw, the photo on that site isn't the Civic sedan - it's the restyled '06 Accord.


otherwise, I hear ya on the complaint. It's a long standing issue I've held - the TSX does me well, but I know it can be out of reach for a lot of buyers. Why no Civic Si 4-door??? The Integra GS-R sedan was a nice option but it seems to have been timed poorly for the market. A solid sport wagon or a fastback sedan (like the old Euro accords or 1st gen integras, or current Mazda6) would be a cool choice.



Are you sure, Jeff, that that's the refreshed Accord? Would that be a little too dramatic to be an Accord, especially since this is only a refresh?

I personally was fine with the rear of the Accord, just not the front.



It appears to be a Honda. And if it's a Honda, I'm 99% sure it's an Accord. As we reported over a year ago(has it been that long?!) the '06 Accord is going through a more significant than normal MMC. As I heard way back, the rear end is being revised heavily. So that looks like a pretty heavy revision to me.






It does have the profile of Accord especially the rear quarter panel. Looks nice I must say.

PwrOfDreams07
Profile for PwrOfDreams07
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 22:23
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i think it looks like an old Infiniti M45
CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-10-2005 22:40
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This rear is nice but I cant see it blending into the Accords more rounded shape, these are crisp lines. The side profile does look like an Accord, plus the plate holder looks as if its been lifted from the coupe.

Patrick

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 00:12
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You're preaching to the choir.

The day that AHM sees the logic to my arguments and hires me as deputy chief for NA I will make sure that we get a 200 bhp Civic wagon... and a TSX sport wagon too.

And a TL state wagon with SH AWD too.

aznstuart wrote:
TonyE wrote:

But I think AHM's answer to a five door Civic is the Element or CRV.




That's the point! We want the Utility of an SUV but the Fuel economy of a Sedan. Then we get a wagon. The Element uses as much fuel as the Ridgeline! The CR-V is getting better but will never reach the coveted 30mpg mark that wagons/hatchbacks can. That's why we want a wagon/hatchback.







TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 00:17
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where's the picture of the new, improved! Accord?
SIVELOZ
Profile for SIVELOZ
Re: wagons.... hatch or SUV cross-over??    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 00:30
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I don't know....... wagons can get pretty butt ugly....

The Mazda 6 is a good looking sedan.... but this is ugly i'm sorry.




A TSX wagon looks even worse.......



Look what Honda made back in 1986....... yuck




I think a Hatch will do...... at least you can barely tell Mazda's 5 door from the sedan.... if you really need utility a cross-over is your best answer (Matrix, Vibe....... etc) just give it more than 130hp sheesh.

whip
Profile for whip
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 00:33
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newdecon wrote:
I agree 100%. Honda does not realize they are loosing the customers who put them in the spotlight (sport compact segment)

Who the hell is honda using for their market research? who is doing product planning? My suggestion, is get yourselves checked in at The Betty Ford Clinic. Whatever you're smoking is getting to your heads!

That sequential Golf is looking mighty nice!


Does Honda even care? For every one enthusiast that they lose, they gain two or more regular buyers. Most people just want a good efficient and reliable car. They don't care about lateral G's. If the car is fast enough to out accelerate the SUV they just pulled out in front of then it's fast enough. Every car that Honda has made in the last ten years has been a compromise(S2000 excluded). The cars are decent handling and decent power. Mix in a little bland styling so that no one is offended. Why no sporty sedans? I would love a four door V-6 6speed. The only cars that are truly performance cars are the S2000 and The ITR. The Japanese and Euro markets get all the fast hardcore Type-R cars. Why not the US? It is the largest market. Honda knows that if you appeal to the masses and don't push the envelope, they sell a million cars. Make no waves or controversy and everyone is happy. Honda is in the business to make money. What makes more money? $32,000 Pilot or a $14,000 fit? A $36,000 TL(An upgraded Accord) or A $26,000 TSX?

The bottom line is the bottom line. Honda does not care about the few people that want a low profit high performance car.
Honda was brilliant. They got an entire generation hooked on small displacment hot rods. I would say they created the catagory. Now they have you hooked on the reliabilty, they know you will keep buying and hope for the one great sports car. I doubt it will happen. The only way to get the message to Honda is with your check book. If you want a five door wagon, buy a Mazda 3 or a 6. Subaru makes a living selling wagons. If you want a fast hatch, go to your local Nissan dealer and put a deposit down.
Stop buying Honda's and they will listen.




whip
Profile for whip
Re: H    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 00:36
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Also not too many companies would have an Ohio manufacter plate.
whip
Profile for whip
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 00:40
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aznstuart wrote:
TonyE wrote:

But I think AHM's answer to a five door Civic is the Element or CRV.




That's the point! We want the Utility of an SUV but the Fuel economy of a Sedan. Then we get a wagon. The Element uses as much fuel as the Ridgeline! The CR-V is getting better but will never reach the coveted 30mpg mark that wagons/hatchbacks can. That's why we want a wagon/hatchback.



I think a Toyota Matrix would be perfect for you. Read My post above for more .

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 00:54
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PLEASE!

I have an EP3 hatch.

Two of my coworkers commute in Matrices.

IMHO the Civic is much nicer inside and out. I think the Matrix is a confusion of lines and curves, whereas the Civic flows with very few lines and a minimum of detail.

And I got 160bhp with an MT5, they got less power and an AT... yuck!

Like I said, I want a five door EP3 but I also want 180-200bhp.

A man must keep his priorities straight.

whip wrote:
aznstuart wrote:
TonyE wrote:

But I think AHM's answer to a five door Civic is the Element or CRV.




That's the point! We want the Utility of an SUV but the Fuel economy of a Sedan. Then we get a wagon. The Element uses as much fuel as the Ridgeline! The CR-V is getting better but will never reach the coveted 30mpg mark that wagons/hatchbacks can. That's why we want a wagon/hatchback.



I think a Toyota Matrix would be perfect for you. Read My post above for more .


whip
Profile for whip
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 11:31
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I've ridden in two EP3's. They are great cars, but for some reason the y didn't sell.
Sasker
Profile for Sasker
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 14:06
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whip wrote:
I've ridden in two EP3's. They are great cars, but for some reason the y didn't sell.


How about their hmm.. "peculiar" headlamps? :-)

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 15:17
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Huh? Those "peculiar" headlamps... the Zsa Zsa Gabor Facelifted style, are pretty much standard in japanese cars nowadays... Hell, just check out the Nissan lineup.

And they didn't sell well for many reasons.... as I already listed before in this thread. In a word, the EP3 hatch and the Civic Si branding have been a marketing fiasco at AHM.

Sasker wrote:
whip wrote:
I've ridden in two EP3's. They are great cars, but for some reason the y didn't sell.


How about their hmm.. "peculiar" headlamps? :-)


Sasker
Profile for Sasker
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 15:29
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TonyE wrote:
Huh? Those "peculiar" headlamps... the Zsa Zsa Gabor Facelifted style, are pretty much standard in japanese cars nowadays... Hell, just check out the Nissan lineup.

And they didn't sell well for many reasons.... as I already listed before in this thread. In a word, the EP3 hatch and the Civic Si branding have been a marketing fiasco at AHM.



Yes, this style of headlights have become a norm, but Honda is gradually diverting from it. They are going towards longer and narrower headlights, a la TSX, TL, and the new civic.

blue99si
Profile for blue99si
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 23:38
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TonyE..... Maybe I was a little too harsh on the Si hatch.....I have driven it a few times and I like it too. I really think that this vehicle has improved in looks from 02 to current. Most of the upgrades to current have been Type Rish. I personally believe that if Honda is going to be successful in the hatch market, they are going to have to bring a 5 door. Styling and only 3 doors really hurt the current vehicle's sales.

Comparing this new Nissan to your Si.....Do you think that if your Si looked like this Nissan that it would have suffered thru the discounting and slow sales that have saddled the Si since its launch? The Nissan is fresh and the styling is Hot. I am not a Nissan fan from a quality standpoint but, I do appreciate the styling of this vehicle.....

blue99si
Profile for blue99si
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-11-2005 23:46
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Jader88EX wrote:
Can you give me a link to the Civic 4 door on that site, i cant find it anywhere


You can go to the Accord form....The 4 door pictures were identified as the refreshed Accord.....

howlinbjk
Profile for howlinbjk
Re: Nissan Sport Hatch vs. Honda Si    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-12-2005 00:38
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Give it up Tony. We all tired of you and Honda telling us that it's our fault that we don't like the Hatch. Honda blew it on the styling, sizing, pricing, and porkiness of the car. Fix all that and it aint the same car. It's not the LEGIONS of former and current hatch buyers that are wrong, it's you and Honda.
Attractive hatches and five doors will sell Honda makes neither.
The car abandoned all of the good points of it's predecessors.
We've gone over it again and again. I could not buy it in Canada if I wanted to anyway.
If this Nissan makes it up here I'm in it. I see a lot of 5G in the design. Nissan has taken some cues off the flagship 350Z and why not. I'll bet the door sill isn't at ear level and one can see over the dash. Honda is obviously no longer interested in my money or other hatch lovers.
Looks like it will be a 9g maybe in 2011 if they have clued in by then.


 
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