[home][rumors and news][model release matrix][dealer network][desktop calendar][exhaust notes][tov forums][links][search][sponsors][garage][login]

Tire Rack Upgrade Garage
 Search for a Dealer:
 Canadian Flag US Flag
 Honda Acura
 ZIP  
NSX GT3 Evo To Compete Globally in 2019
More.......................
2019 Acura ILX Arrives with Dynamic New Styling, Major Technology Upgrades and New A-Spec Treatment
More.......................
Honda Joins with Cruise and General Motors to Build New Autonomous Vehicle
More.......................
Honda reports September 2018 sales numbers
More.......................
Honda recalling 232,000 2018 Accords and 2019 Insights for rear camera software update
More.......................
2019 Accord arriving in showrooms by November
More.......................
Is a base trim of the Civic Type R finally arriving for MY 2019? (More MY2019 info inside)
More.......................
Team Honda Research wins ST2 at NASA Nationals with their NC1 NSX
More.......................
General Talk --> Re: Fixing SH-AWD
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: F1 - 2018 United States Grand Prix
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: CDX
Join Discussion......
Fuel Cell Technology --> Re: DMV Stickers, we don't need no stinking stickers
Join Discussion......
RDX --> Re: 3rd Generation Acura RDX Reviews
Join Discussion......
TLX --> Re: My TLX so far
Join Discussion......
Odyssey --> Re: 2016 Odyssey SE
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: European CO2 madness and why electromobility is pointless
Join Discussion......
Strictly Technical --> Re: Pre-DWB S2000 Engine Management
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: 2019/2020 Honda FR GT500
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: Model Release Matrix?
Join Discussion......
Amateur Racing & Driving --> Re: TSX @ NCCAR Apexfest
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> The Dirt on Clean Electric Cars
Join Discussion......
2019 Honda Pilot PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Honda Insight
Read Article....................
2019 Honda Insight PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Acura RDX
Read Article....................
2019 Acura RDX Features & Specifications
Read Article....................
PR Photo Gallery - 2019 Acura RDX Advance
Read Article....................

[fancy] [flat] [simple]
  TOV News > Union of Concerned Scientists Name Honda 2004 'Greenest Automaker' > > Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules

Viewing Threshold (What is this?)

Thread Page - [1]
Author
    
civic_cx_92
Profile for civic_cx_92
Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 12:22
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
"The lawsuit was filed in US district court in Fresno by 13 California car dealerships and the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents nine automakers, including General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., DaimlerChrysler AG, Toyota Motor Co., BMW AG and Volkswagen AG."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&e=10&u=/afp/us_auto_environment

The 9 manufactures are...

BMW GROUP, DAIMLERCHRYSLER, FORD MOTOR COMPANY, GENERAL MOTORS, MAZDA, MITSUBISHI MOTORS, PORSCHE, TOYOTA AND VOLKSWAGEN.

Whoa! Good for Honda for not joining this group!


dodole
Profile for dodole
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 12:50
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
civic_cx_92 wrote:
"The lawsuit was filed in US district court in Fresno by 13 California car dealerships and the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents nine automakers, including General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., DaimlerChrysler AG, Toyota Motor Co., BMW AG and Volkswagen AG."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&e=10&u=/afp/us_auto_environment

The 9 manufactures are...

BMW GROUP, DAIMLERCHRYSLER, FORD MOTOR COMPANY, GENERAL MOTORS, MAZDA, MITSUBISHI MOTORS, PORSCHE, TOYOTA AND VOLKSWAGEN.

Whoa! Good for Honda for not joining this group!



i see someone losing battle in protecting the earth instead they just go to court to save themselves

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 13:50
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
yeah but the CARB has rediculous regulations half the time. i can see why honda doesn't want to be a part of the group because they have a lead on emission technology over other companies it seems. the next CARB regulation is to reduce the amount of CO2 that comes out of the engine. this can only be reduced by reducing the amount of gas consumed by the engine, it cannot be reduced with scrubbers (cat converters). I hear that CARB wants to reduce the CO2 emissions by 30%...that translates into a reduction of gas consumed by 30%. that is indeed rediculous.
Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 13:55
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
consumers usually don't care how much pollution cars put out. the new cars put out little to almost no pollution. some tree huggers out in california think that it isn't good enough so they seek to use their power to make things the way they want them. i don't see this as a good thing. just wait until you all complain why car prices have increased and power has decreased and you sit there scratching your head...but by god the cars will be a little bit cleaner putting a great big smile on CARBs face.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 14:40
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Sorry but you are completely out of the ballpark with your comments.

This is not about tree huggers out in California... this is about millions of people living very close to each other on vast coastal plains ringed by high mountains... our cities are built on areas that were known to trap smoke pollutants even when the indians lived here by themselves.

Hence, it's not tree huggers, but ordinary citizens, Red, Blue and Green alike that have a vested interest in cutting down smog.

So unless you've experienced a smoggy summer afternoon in Pasadena, please shut up.

And, before you go on... smog is not just native to California. Some of the worst smog I've even seen was in Denver during the winter. That place got worse than Pasadena on a smog 1 alert day.

No, CARB has got it right. And AHM has got it right too.

I appreciate my lungs, and if the byproduct is lower oil comsumption, hey, that's great.

BTW- before you get on the bandwagon... let me tell ya that my politics are pretty much to the right, not quite an anarchist but pretty much laisez faire. However, I do appreciate trees... Have you ever visited Sequoia National Park? Have you ever stood in an old growth forest. Those tree huggers do make some very good points. And, yes, cutting down on material acquisitions and wasteful activities frees up time and money for better endeavors.. like buying more computers!

Dren wrote:
yeah but the CARB has rediculous regulations half the time. i can see why honda doesn't want to be a part of the group because they have a lead on emission technology over other companies it seems. the next CARB regulation is to reduce the amount of CO2 that comes out of the engine. this can only be reduced by reducing the amount of gas consumed by the engine, it cannot be reduced with scrubbers (cat converters). I hear that CARB wants to reduce the CO2 emissions by 30%...that translates into a reduction of gas consumed by 30%. that is indeed rediculous.




notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 17:48
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Tony,

I appreciate living in smog free areas as much as anyone, but Dren has a point.

CARB regulations are designed to target the average tax paying, law abiding citizen. As such, each new regulation reaches new levels of diminishing returns. Car and Driver, using government research data, showed several years ago that 50% of all pollutants come from only 10% of the vehicles on the road. This 10% was not old cars only. Rather they were distributed almost perfectly through the range of cars on the road. They were poorly maintained vehicles that polluted all out of proportion to the rest of the world.

But rather than target these 10 percenters, the remaining 90% of us have to pay increasingly high fuel costs (for our special blend), licensing and inspection costs and new technology costs. Yet, even if all these things reduce our ridiculously low pollutant levels (about 1% of those emitted in the 60's) by 10%, we still don't come close to having the impact that cleaning up those 10 percenter people.

If the government would focus on enforcing existing laws and cracking down on those people smoking down the street or bypassing emissions tests (it happens more than you think - although stops of cars that are visibly smoking and requiring _state_ inspection would probably end that) we'd probably cut pollution by 20%. But that would mean that many people wouldn't be able to drive anymore. Those people would be proportionately minority and we'd have Jesse Jackson in town bitching about civil rights violations.

An attempt to limit CO2 is, AFAIK, a backdoor way to mandating higher fuel mileage. That clashes with the Fed's CAFE power which means a state vs. federal battle at some point. Much like the Zero emissions mandate (how many cars were supposed to be electric by now), this one has some serious issues and is likely to be amended or fail completely.

Honda is playing it smart though. They have a competitive advantage in pollution technology, so more regulation is good. And if they feel the initiative is likely to fail or be toned down, they still score PR and brownie points for not opposing it in the first place. This is good press management for sure.

SC

cobalt
Profile for cobalt
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 18:40
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
notyper wrote:
If the government would focus on enforcing existing laws and cracking down on those people smoking down the street or bypassing emissions tests (it happens more than you think - although stops of cars that are visibly smoking and requiring _state_ inspection would probably end that) we'd probably cut pollution by 20%. But that would mean that many people wouldn't be able to drive anymore. Those people would be proportionately minority and we'd have Jesse Jackson in town bitching about civil rights violations.


In the Bay Area we have a way to report gross polluters (here's the link). I can say I've used it a number of times, and while I have no idea if it does any good, I have this wonderful dream of a late night knock on someone's door from a man wearing a black suit and no sense of humor thanks to me.

I feel little pain for those whose cars can't pass. I can stand being near them -- I can barely stand diesels. Ruining the environment is a big one on my list of concerns, and this is no civil rights violation. I think there are solutions that don't require destroying the earth.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 18:57
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
As I recall, that was the article where it said that it'd be cheaper to buy a brand new car and swap it for every beater than to make the rest of us pay through the nose.

Yes, the laws are a bit quixotic, but what can you do? You can't just tax poor people driving old jalopies to work... you have to let the old cars work their way through the system. At some point, poor folks simply can't maintain them and they will stretch a bit and buy a newer car that pollutes less. So we all pay a bit to keep the "car poor" in their ever cleaner jalopies to go to work. I look at it as a hidden tax. But I'd rather have it this way that yet fund another bureaucracy to purchase and distribute new high efficiency cars in exchange of all clunkers.

Can you imagine the stink that Ford and GM would make then because CARB's new cars för clunkers"program wouldn't include SUVs and pickups?

No, let CARB do its social work by manipulating the marketplace. I think that's the smarter way to do it.

There's a new wrinkle in the old car laws that I think finally made it through our legistature. A change that says that cars that are 30 years old must be maintained at the smog levels when they were new. It used to be that a car older than 30 years old was free from any such restrictions.

Another wrinkle to the smog battle is that when CARB pushes low CO2 output, it pushes high efficiency. This is a perhaps a way around the Fed's CAFE and a somewhat backhanded way to kill the SUV craze. Insofar as the Feds and CARB are concerned, I'll put my money on CARB because of our grandfathered clause. I think the Feds don't have the spine, they are too controlled by Detroit's interestests.

CARB, OTOH, looks at Detroit like a foreign country. If you think about it, AHM, TM, Nissan, etc... are our "domestics". I find it sad that the Toy Boat Factory joined that sorry bunch of apologists. It reminds me of how HMC introduced the CVCC motor to do what everyone else (in particular Detroit's messengers to the US Congress) said was impossible.

Now, when it comes to HMC/AHM I don't think they're playing the game. I think it really runs into their core engineering values. That's why we don't have a V8. Why waste when you can do better?

notyper wrote:
Tony,

I appreciate living in smog free areas as much as anyone, but Dren has a point.

CARB regulations are designed to target the average tax paying, law abiding citizen. As such, each new regulation reaches new levels of diminishing returns. Car and Driver, using government research data, showed several years ago that 50% of all pollutants come from only 10% of the vehicles on the road. This 10% was not old cars only. Rather they were distributed almost perfectly through the range of cars on the road. They were poorly maintained vehicles that polluted all out of proportion to the rest of the world.

But rather than target these 10 percenters, the remaining 90% of us have to pay increasingly high fuel costs (for our special blend), licensing and inspection costs and new technology costs. Yet, even if all these things reduce our ridiculously low pollutant levels (about 1% of those emitted in the 60's) by 10%, we still don't come close to having the impact that cleaning up those 10 percenter people.

If the government would focus on enforcing existing laws and cracking down on those people smoking down the street or bypassing emissions tests (it happens more than you think - although stops of cars that are visibly smoking and requiring _state_ inspection would probably end that) we'd probably cut pollution by 20%. But that would mean that many people wouldn't be able to drive anymore. Those people would be proportionately minority and we'd have Jesse Jackson in town bitching about civil rights violations.

An attempt to limit CO2 is, AFAIK, a backdoor way to mandating higher fuel mileage. That clashes with the Fed's CAFE power which means a state vs. federal battle at some point. Much like the Zero emissions mandate (how many cars were supposed to be electric by now), this one has some serious issues and is likely to be amended or fail completely.

Honda is playing it smart though. They have a competitive advantage in pollution technology, so more regulation is good. And if they feel the initiative is likely to fail or be toned down, they still score PR and brownie points for not opposing it in the first place. This is good press management for sure.

SC






aznstuart
Profile for aznstuart
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 20:20
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
notice Nissan and Hyundai aren't there.

OHV
Profile for OHV
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-08-2004 20:34
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
aznstuart wrote:
notice Nissan and Hyundai aren't there.



ironic as their engines arent exactly clean either.

oh well, CARB goes way overboard in some regulations. cant say i really blame the group, but then again its the truck makers that are going to get hit the hardest since they have V8s designed for heavy duty (lol yeah right).

if CARB gets their way california will be back in the 70s and 80s, powerless cars and scarcity of V8s, once again turbo 6s and 4s will be the "powerful" cars, then youll run into a lot of... illegal... cars.

besides all new cars are incredibly clean compared to cars of the past.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-09-2004 09:34
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Nissan is accross the 405 from Toyota... just down the street.

Hyundai is down the freeway at Fountain Valley in The OC.

I believe all of the asian car manufacturers' NA headquarters are in Southern California. Daewoo used to be up the street from I used to work in Dominguez Hills.

Insofar as powerless cars... well, if you want to buy a truck from GM, perhaps. But I believe the likes of Honda and Toyota will manage quite well to deliver efficiency and power with low pollutants. The are a lot of differences between the late 70s and today.. the most important one is the widespread use of microcontrollers which do allow minute control over the engine components. Something that would have been unheard of in the days of the Ricardo Montalban's Corinthian Leather Cordoba.

Now, those trucks... well, one of the plans is to run the rail away from the Ports of LA and LB up to some place further NE. That way a lot of the smog caused by heavy trucks on the Harbor Fwy will go away.

OHV wrote:
aznstuart wrote:
notice Nissan and Hyundai aren't there.



ironic as their engines arent exactly clean either.

oh well, CARB goes way overboard in some regulations. cant say i really blame the group, but then again its the truck makers that are going to get hit the hardest since they have V8s designed for heavy duty (lol yeah right).

if CARB gets their way california will be back in the 70s and 80s, powerless cars and scarcity of V8s, once again turbo 6s and 4s will be the "powerful" cars, then youll run into a lot of... illegal... cars.

besides all new cars are incredibly clean compared to cars of the past.



notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-09-2004 11:24
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
But Tony, the critical point is that gross polluters were made up of older and newer cars. It was the lack of proper maintenance and care that resulted in them becoming gross polluters.

So, in the end, as long as there are people not able to afford much in the way of cars, or lazy people unwilling to obey the inspection laws despite financial resources (again, more of those than you might think), you're going to have these gross polluters. Thus, CARB is increasingly making us pay for their inability/unwillingness to comply. Unfortunately, its not just a case of shifting the burden because no matter how clean our cars become, those ten percenters are going to be stinking it up.

I abhor social engineering, especially when I'm supposed to pay a disproportionate share of the cost. You don't like our "progressive" tax system do you? You know, the one that penalizes you for making more money? Why would you like the CARB policies then?

SC

RayChuang
Profile for RayChuang
Mind you, Honda has done very well on emissions technology. [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-09-2004 12:38
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I mean, take a look at the vehicles that Honda sells in the US market today.

Thanks to VTEC and i-VTEC, Honda now has engines that for the most part meet at least ULEV regulations. And the K24 engine on the Honda Accord with i-VTEC sports 160 bhp and is good enough to qualify for Partial-Zero Emissions Vehicle (PZEV) certification, something you normally associate with the Toyota Prius! :-) With the mandate of drastic reductions in sulfur compounds in motor fuels, Honda will likely take the lead in building next-generation i-VTEC engines that will sport direct fuel injection, stratified combustion, and new ceramic-based catalytic converters that will sport 10-15% better fuel economy than current engines and still meet PZEV requirements.

Also, removal of sulfur from motor fuels makes it possible for Honda to import the i-CTDi turbodiesel engine sell in all 50 states by the fall of 2006. Imagine driving a Honda Accord with much more torque than the current K24 engine, gets over 40 mpg in freeway driving and very likely passes SULEV emissions certification; people will line up to buy this car in no time flat.

RayChuang
Profile for RayChuang
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-09-2004 12:49
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE wrote:
Another wrinkle to the smog battle is that when CARB pushes low CO2 output, it pushes high efficiency. This is a perhaps a way around the Fed's CAFE and a somewhat backhanded way to kill the SUV craze.



Actually, the mandated removal of sulfur from motor fuels starting in 2006 may actually keep the SUV craze going for a while. The reason is simple: it allows the application of new gasoline engine technologies that reduce fuel consumption as much as 15% compared to today's gasoline engines and allows the switch of SUV's, light trucks and minivans to clean-burning turbodiesel power with 40-45% better fuel efficiency than gasoline-powered engine equivalents.

Take for example the upcoming Honda Ridgeline truck; AHM could now switch to a 3.5-liter V-6 turbodiesel engine using Honda's own i-CTDi turbodiesel technology and get a vehicle with 22 mpg city, 30 mpg highway! :-) I think both Ford (using its Cummins connections) and GM (using its Isuzu connections) may push for clean-burning turbodiesel engines on the majority of their light truck, SUV and minivan fleet by the fall of 2007.

Klingon_dog
Profile for Klingon_dog
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-09-2004 12:58
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE, thank for providing a degree of sanity. You really hit it on the nail.
camaroz28
Profile for camaroz28
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-10-2004 04:33
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
The CARB rule is all about California trying to make national policy about gas mileage when the Federal government would not.

CO2 produced is directly proportional to fuel consumed.

California is not allowed to regulate gas mileage, only pollutants. The Federal government says CO2 is not a pollutant (for obvious reasons).

Whether you agree with the California legislature (legislate higher gas mileage) or the Federal government (leave things as they are) probably determines how you feel about the CO2 emission regulation.

I don't see that California has much of a case, and I'm a little angry that they are using my taxpayer dollars to create and now defend in court regulations that federal law pretty clearly says they can't write.

I would be okay with California regulating CO2 output if federal law permitted it, and I would also be fine with stricter federal CO2 emission standards. I don't like to spend money we don't have to make political points.

Btw, the regs seemed to be fairly reasonable. I think that maybe CARB was hoping that they were reasonable enough that the manufacturers would go along because they wouldn't want to look bad. Didn't work.

George Madison
Profile for George Madison
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-10-2004 16:03
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
You make some excellent points. I'm a member of the Green party and consider myself a pretty hard-core environmentalist - but some of CARB's actions strike me as ineffective and badly targeted.

I don't know if this came from CARB or EPA, but how about the recent attempts to force catalytic converters onto street motorcycles? There are vastly fewer motorcycles than cars, and for many people who ride, it's a leisure vehicle not their primary transportation. The fraction of fuel burned by motorcycles is tiny compared to that burned by cars, and I can think of much bigger, more effective targets. Forcing horribly polluting cars off the road is one way, and forcing better efficiency and emissions standards onto gas guzzlers (especially the SUVs big enough to elude the automobile standards) is another.

Of course, motorcyclists are used to being crapped on as a PR stunt because of the perception that there's not enough of us to matter.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Auto industry seeks to block tough California emissions rules [View News Item]    (Score: 1, Normal) 12-13-2004 15:19
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyE wrote:
Sorry but you are completely out of the ballpark with your comments.

This is not about tree huggers out in California... this is about millions of people living very close to each other on vast coastal plains ringed by high mountains... our cities are built on areas that were known to trap smoke pollutants even when the indians lived here by themselves.

Hence, it's not tree huggers, but ordinary citizens, Red, Blue and Green alike that have a vested interest in cutting down smog.

So unless you've experienced a smoggy summer afternoon in Pasadena, please shut up.

And, before you go on... smog is not just native to California. Some of the worst smog I've even seen was in Denver during the winter. That place got worse than Pasadena on a smog 1 alert day.

No, CARB has got it right. And AHM has got it right too.

I appreciate my lungs, and if the byproduct is lower oil comsumption, hey, that's great.

BTW- before you get on the bandwagon... let me tell ya that my politics are pretty much to the right, not quite an anarchist but pretty much laisez faire. However, I do appreciate trees... Have you ever visited Sequoia National Park? Have you ever stood in an old growth forest. Those tree huggers do make some very good points. And, yes, cutting down on material acquisitions and wasteful activities frees up time and money for better endeavors.. like buying more computers!





I have lived 2 years in Seoul, Korea. A city occupied by more than 12 million. You cannot see the sun on a "clear" day because the pollution is so bad. You have to wash your car once a week because it gets caked with gray dust, sort of like how tree pollen coats your car in the spring. I understand the importance of reducing the smog, which takes place with out regulation. CARB is just too rediculous, especially with what it is asking for now.


 
Thread Page - [1]
Contact TOV | Submit Your Article | Submit Your Link | Advertise | TOV Shop | Events | Our Sponsors | TOV Archives
Copyright © 2018 Velocitech Inc. All information contained herein remains the property of Velocitech Inc.
The Temple of VTEC is not affiliated with American Honda Motor Co., Inc. TOV Policies and Guidelines - Credits - Privacy Policy
30 mobile: 0