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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great

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Grebu
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Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 20:52
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While I give chevy alot of respect for there recent rennasaince of new models I fear it is too late. It seems that everything they do is an attempt to keep up with Ford who is biting off of Honda in there sedan/coupe/performance market (agrreably Honda is not very strong in the truck market).

And now this Chevy Cobalt that will be arriving late this year is another feeble attempt. When I look at it, it seems it is built to compete with the RSX line (at least in the coupe), the 140 hp sedan couldn't even touch the TSX or Accord (although it would likely be priced significantly lower).

As usual these cars will sell for a year and a half and then become another in the long line of poor competetors to imports. But hey, what's an American automaker to do.

On a side note, at least they got rid of the cavalier. Maybe we can get rid of the Dodge Neon too.

thunderbird1100
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Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 21:42
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The Cobalt will be a big hit....engine options range from a 140hp ecotec to a 200+hp supercharged ecotec (with a 170hp ecotec mid-pack)...it looks like an RSX from the side.I think it's ten-fold better than the cavalier....i think it will be a big hit for Chevy. I'd definatley buy the 170hp version over ANY current Civic we get.
OHV
Profile for OHV
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 22:18
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Cobalt will be a hit, it will offer more power and better mileage (laughs at toyota) than the Scion tC while looking more traditional with a sportyier pose. besides why are you comparing a ECOTEC designed for TORQUE to a HO strung out engine? (altho i do believe a ECOTEC can go to 1.6L, so that would make a perfect engine for the Aveo, instead of that old POS Opel engine in there ATM)

The Equinox is selling at 200% predictions, ive seen a TON of thses things already.

when they get rid of the old 3.4L for a newer engine they will rock (altho the 3.4L is a decent engine for the car) not to mention the V6 gets a whopping 1 less mpg than the CR-V while offering a lot more power.

Redesign on the 3rd most popular car in the US, impala, might merge Monte Carlo and Impala lines for a lot more sales and a large update on the revised "Mid-Lux" platform, for MY2006.

Trucks redesign for MY2008 i think or 7... anyways a GM engineer was quoted as saying "ford didnt go far enough with their interiors" so thats a good sign.

Malibu could use a better interior, but its selling well if you combine the Malibu with the Classic (the fleet version of the previous gen malibu) sales are wayyy over last years level.

Ford on the other hand is designing boring Toyota like cars.

besides when 2007 rolles around, what would you rather have? a Scion tC with about 190hp(sounds reasonable in 3 years right?) for 17.5K or a Camaro with a 225+hp V6 (prolly more...) with DoD that ends up getting about 20/30 gas mileage... for about 19-20k?

besides with the recent Unification of GM Europe, GM America will be able to benefit from German/Sweedish/British/Italian benefits, plus GM just made a small road testing course for testing new models b4 they go to neuremburg, so im sure their new models will be niceee to handle.

just my 2 cents. the Camaro WILL be back tho, mark my words...

eiurrutia
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Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 22:40
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yeah without european help their cars would be nothing. Smart move for them to buy some european automakers out.
OHV
Profile for OHV
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 23:07
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Im sorry but you obviously dont know anything about GM.

Opel has been a member of GM since 1928. Saab since the early 90s and Vaxuall is just Opel Britian ATM.

Therefore, your statement doesnt make much difference. GMs a worldwide company and uses its assets, itd be foolish not to.

Grebu
Profile for Grebu
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 23:17
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Although I am not a big fan of chevy, I do agree that the Cobalt will probably sell because it is offered in 2 and 4 door and has many different engine options. But it's not like it's the first time that a manufacturer has taken a platform and done this. Doesn't the cavalier come in 2 and 4 door, it's not a great car in any aspect, But....

It did have a 15 year run in production. That's the beauty. We can argue with each other till were blue in the face but they'll still keep selling domestics. the reason, "Buy America" sells.

However, let me get a hold of a ecotec Cobalt VS. my RSX-S at the track and I think I may take it (Boost or not).

that's my 3 cents.

P.S. I love my Sony T.V. (Zenith where you at?)


notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 23:29
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Ahh dear boy, you just don't get it. 19/25 vs. 22/26 That 1 mpg on the freeway is a matter of gearing. The 3 mpg in town (15% difference) is a matter of weight and efficiency.

And the "lots" more power...please. The Equinox is rated at 185 hp. The CRV at 160 hp, but we already know that the actual output of the latter is between 170-175 hp. Which is why the 400 lbs _lighter_ CRV will walk away from the Equinox.

Slower, heavier, worse fuel economy, no more interior room than a CRV and Chevy is trying to charge more for an Equinox than what a CRV goes for? Guess that's what those $4000 rebates are for, eh?

SC

Grebu
Profile for Grebu
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 23:44
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OHV,
Your comment

"besides when 2007 rolles around, what would you rather have? a Scion tC with about 190hp(sounds reasonable in 3 years right?) for 17.5K or a Camaro with a 225+hp V6 (prolly more...) with DoD that ends up getting about 20/30 gas mileage... for about 19-20k?"

Where can you get a new camaro for 19 grand, and plus how can you compare it to a Scion. That's apples and oranges.

Grebu
Profile for Grebu
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-28-2004 23:50
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It's amazing how they come up with their mileage ratings for their new auto's. I have to actually make an effort and granny shift just to come close to the fuel economy that so called manufacturers advertise.

You try shifting gears at 2500 rpms in an RSX-S just to get 30 mpg. It's quite a chore to do it for a whole week. Must......keep........ willpower, I can do it.

Then..... Ahhh Friday!

OHV
Profile for OHV
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 00:01
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Yeah but the 'Nox has torque... 210 lbs of it. the CRV doesnt have as much.

besides tall gearing works cause these cars make enough torque to do that. 3mpg is not too bad and 19/25 is still good for its category, espically considering its a V6 and an old one at that! with the 3.5L im sure it could get 21/28 no prob.

There are no rebates on the 'Nox, its sales are way higher then predicted and i doubt there will be any rebates.

plus the Nox has class leading rear headroom and Legroom, and slightly less overall cargo. Plus it looks meaner ;-)

besides i was just using that as an example, the public seems to love it so far, i mean its a good lookin car.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=Agorg1jbxhE1SN07X2x20svDy5DPjKU2DEWwqB3lxUHKSYhNXgB7!939124074?basestyleid=100350447&styleid=100370220&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=pricing

heres a comparison of the EX AWD vs the LT AWD, both top of the line, the Nox is slightly under 2K more, but u get more for it.

Therefore, the nox is a better "value" with more flexible options if you need, like towing.

mac_powah
Profile for mac_powah
*Bisle* Camaro    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 00:35
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I agree... Um let me think...I'd rather take a toyota product first any day. I'm really interested in the TC because I think it's a truly beautiful car and you can't beat the price with a stick, either.
Gee...if they do bring back the *cough* Camaro expect it to be a hideous deisgn similar to the 2005 "Stang", which is utterly disgusting and shameful. Plus, I'm not one for big, floppy and ineffecient American sofas that you call cars. Sorry.

Grebu
Profile for Grebu
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 00:52
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I checked out your link and compared the Equinox VS. the Honda Pilot (A 3.5L 6 Cyl) and your right. It seemed to stack up rather decent against the competition. The Pilot cost 2 grand more but I believe it had 40 more horses in it. I didn't see the fuel economy numbers though.

I will not change my stance that Chevy products are not progressing, but I also won't rag on them as much as I do Ford or Dodge.

I did however notice that the Saturn Vue seems to be the Best in class for this platform. I think the Vue looks sporty although I've never been inside one. Plus they have the Redline Version (an obvious attempt to cash in on a fad).

Any opinions?

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 02:42
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Sorry skippy, but I had already looked at that comparo when I made my post.

Torque is irrelevant, plus you're evading by changing the subject. Just like the 10 hp advantage or so doesn't matter given the weight difference, neither does the torque advantage. The CRV is still quicker and more fuel efficient.

And speaking of irrelevant, so is the 3.5 argument. It ain't in there now, so like your future Camaro, it isn't a valid comparison.

Chevy already has a 2.9% financing offer on the Equinox, and I'm sure more incentives will come up in short order. I mean, when you look at it, it actually has less overall space than a CRV (even though you want to cherry pick a couple measurements), costs more and is actually missing key standard features like a moonroof, 6cd changer, etc. which are all standard on the CRV EX. Start adding in options like leather, etc. and you end up in the $28k-$29k range - which, oh my, happens to be right in the middle of the Pilot lineup (Pilot EX w/leather is $30k). Now you get seating for 8, lots more hp and torque (take your pick) that more than offset the weight gain and hey, you only lose 2 mpg around town ;) - and the 3.5 is already there...

Incidentally, the Pilot is the same length as the Equinox and actually has a tighter turning circle. Who woulda thunk it?

Good for Chevy that they can sell some Equinox's, but perhaps it is on style rather than merit. Go figure.

SC

OHV wrote:
Yeah but the 'Nox has torque... 210 lbs of it. the CRV doesnt have as much.

besides tall gearing works cause these cars make enough torque to do that. 3mpg is not too bad and 19/25 is still good for its category, espically considering its a V6 and an old one at that! with the 3.5L im sure it could get 21/28 no prob.

There are no rebates on the 'Nox, its sales are way higher then predicted and i doubt there will be any rebates.

plus the Nox has class leading rear headroom and Legroom, and slightly less overall cargo. Plus it looks meaner ;-)

besides i was just using that as an example, the public seems to love it so far, i mean its a good lookin car.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=Agorg1jbxhE1SN07X2x20svDy5DPjKU2DEWwqB3lxUHKSYhNXgB7!939124074?basestyleid=100350447&styleid=100370220&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=pricing

heres a comparison of the EX AWD vs the LT AWD, both top of the line, the Nox is slightly under 2K more, but u get more for it.

Therefore, the nox is a better "value" with more flexible options if you need, like towing.



uhhhh
Profile for uhhhh
this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 05:57
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these cars were always a poor attempt at the sports car market, get a real sports car, american car companys are idiots why do they need v8's in every sports car(i wouldnt call them that there such a poor attempt) take a look @ how sucessfull the jap sports cars are, nissan 350 z, nissan 300 zx , nissan skyline, nsx etc and they're all 6's imo we should wait till the jap manufacturers start throwing in v8's , jap manufacturers are putting american manufacturers to shame by being able to compete with 6 cylinder sports cars , it is going to be so nice when we see a 6.2 Liter V8 in skylines, a 6.5 liter V8 in the resurected supra, etc etc haha ford and chevy will be outta business soon.
thunderbird1100
Profile for thunderbird1100
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 07:35
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OHV wrote:
Cobalt will be a hit, it will offer more power and better mileage (laughs at toyota) than the Scion tC while looking more traditional with a sportyier pose. besides why are you comparing a ECOTEC designed for TORQUE to a HO strung out engine? (altho i do believe a ECOTEC can go to 1.6L, so that would make a perfect engine for the Aveo, instead of that old POS Opel engine in there ATM)

The Equinox is selling at 200% predictions, ive seen a TON of thses things already.

when they get rid of the old 3.4L for a newer engine they will rock (altho the 3.4L is a decent engine for the car) not to mention the V6 gets a whopping 1 less mpg than the CR-V while offering a lot more power.

Redesign on the 3rd most popular car in the US, impala, might merge Monte Carlo and Impala lines for a lot more sales and a large update on the revised "Mid-Lux" platform, for MY2006.

Trucks redesign for MY2008 i think or 7... anyways a GM engineer was quoted as saying "ford didnt go far enough with their interiors" so thats a good sign.

Malibu could use a better interior, but its selling well if you combine the Malibu with the Classic (the fleet version of the previous gen malibu) sales are wayyy over last years level.

Ford on the other hand is designing boring Toyota like cars.

besides when 2007 rolles around, what would you rather have? a Scion tC with about 190hp(sounds reasonable in 3 years right?) for 17.5K or a Camaro with a 225+hp V6 (prolly more...) with DoD that ends up getting about 20/30 gas mileage... for about 19-20k?

just my 2 cents. the Camaro WILL be back tho, mark my words...



I'd probably take the Supercharged Scion tC (which by the way will have the same power as the Cobalt SS..200+hp) over the ecotec supercharged Cobalt SS. Why? Scion does look a little better...and I was just never an Ecotec fan (I mean, we are talking Toyota vs. Chevy for reliability here). All my friends have had such horrid problems with theirs in their Cavaliers I always try and stay away from them. Hopefully GM gets it right with the Cobalt. Nice car.

Equinox looks like every other Chevrolet in my opinion...therefore...something I would never buy.

Impala and Monte Carlo are being sold soley based on 'made in america' at this point. They offer ZERO advantages over an Accord...and at times cost more. Let's not forget a EX V-6 6spd coupe Accord will whip up on a Supercharged SS Impala or Monte Carlo (even a Grand Prix GTP).

I hope they actually 'redesign' their trucks this time. They've looked the same for 2 decades now. Right now I put them last in the 1/2 ton market when comparing Ford/Dodge/Nissan/Toyota to them. Then in the HD market with diesels...Dodge owns all with the Cummins :)

The only things I can honestly think that are driving sales of the Malibu have to be relaibility and again 'made in america'. My driver's ed car (years ago) was a malibu. It was god awful. It felt 100% like a cheap rental car.

Ford is designing 'boring' cars? HELLO, 2005 MUSTANG....FORD GT...Ford Five-Hundred. Just to name a few 'boring toyota-like' cars.

They won't bring back the Camaro. GM has no plans too. They will make concept after concept for the next 5 years and then just stop even making concepts of it. The Mustang is too strong of a product now for the Camaro to compete against. And I think GM knows this. Although a 4.2 I-6 Camaro would be nice (275hp). Mark my words. The Camaro is DEAD.

thunderbird1100
Profile for thunderbird1100
Re: *Bisle* Camaro    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 07:40
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Are you insane? The 2005 Mustang is the first Mustang i'd buy SINCE 1973 (looks wise). I personally deemed the decades of Mustangs from 1974-2004 the tri-decades of fugliness for the Mustang. The Mustang has real power now (300hp from the 4.6)..and the interior is god-like (maybe they stole those F150 designers). The exterior brings back the olden days perfectly. It actually HANDLES really well. All-in-all it's an awesome car.

thunderbird1100
Profile for thunderbird1100
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 07:41
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Vue Red-Line is 3.5 Honda powered. Probably won't have the 'we only got 50 Ion Red-Lines out on the market and we already recalled them all' spell again.
hmpower
Profile for hmpower
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 07:50
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The Equinox is already available with discounted financing (4.9%). I'm sure that by the end of summer, you'll see money laid out on the hood in addition to that.
The Cobalt will need big incentives to get out the door, there is so much competition in that part of the market now, they'll need to do something to get people to take a chance on a new model name. And to me, the coupe looks just like a Cavalier with round tail lights. Just my 2 cents.

kablamo
Profile for kablamo
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 08:36
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I think it will be a strong selling car (at least at first), but not as strong as you seem to think.

Chevy has split their cavalier market in two: Aveo and Cobalt. Either way, cavaliers need incentives to sell (whether they are the base or loaded versions), and i suspect in a year or two at the most it will be the same with the cobalt. The car isn't anything beyond the corolla with VVTi or mazdaspeed protege (in the upper trim levels) and still nothing better than those cars in the lower trim levels. No matter how you look at it, it's not a breakthrough car, simply a "keeping up with competition" car.

Grebu
Profile for Grebu
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 08:36
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If the Camaro did come back IMO it would be as a smaller Import type sports car and not as the behemoth it once was. That way Chevy could use the recent import inspired designs but still attach a well known badge to it.

But a camaro as small as a 300Z would look weird.

CivicB18
Profile for CivicB18
Re: this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 09:22
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That was a very IGNORANT statement. As much as I love Japanese cars, especially Hondas, I have to disagree with your statement. I wouldnt call the Japanese sports cars "sucessful". Im positive that there are WAY more Camaros, Trans Ams, Mustangs, and Corvettes on US roadways than any car you've mentioned. The reason the Japanese care WERENT sucessful was their price. The Supra, RX-7, and 300ZX all died in the US market because of this. All these cars were much more than a Camaro,Mustang or even a Corvette at the time.

As far as "needing a V8", these cars are built to show the muscle car heritage. GM and Ford tried the turbo route once before and it flopped, so the inexspensive, V8, RWD formula is a must if they wanted to stay in that market. The Mustang is still the #1 seller in that area. Look at the C5 Vette, it matches or beats car twice its price and it uses that formula.

I give respect where its due. I dont care for any of the domestic cars I mentioned, but if it wasnt for them I dont think the import performance market (in US) would be as near as big as it is today.

Patrick


thunderbird1100
Profile for thunderbird1100
Re: Chevy can't keep up    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 09:23
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300z's arent small...well, too small..they weigh 3400+lbs.
whip
Profile for whip
no Camaro    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 09:47
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There will NOT be a Camaro.When Chevy stopped production of the F cars the agreement between the union and GM was that If GM ever brought back the Camaro or Firebird ( in all its plastic glory ) that they would be built in the same Canadian plant and that plant has been closed.It would cost way to much for GM to reopen the plant hire all the workers and all the EPA nightmares.However they may bring something similiar with a different name but I doubt it.Chevy couldn't develop the platform to its best potential.If they would it would cannabalize sells from the Vette.With all the time and money Chevy has put into the Vette I don't think they will create competition within their own brand.
whip
Profile for whip
Re: this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 10:06
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Do you realize that if Ford and GM go out of business the economic impact would be so great that you and I probally wouldn't be able to afford any cars? Would Honda be here if it wasn't for Henry Ford? Be careful what you wish for.
How succesful are these cars you listed?Nissan didn't even have a sports car for most of the 90's.They still will not import the Skyline.The autocrosses that I go to the 350Z isn't all that great.Some front wheeldrive cars with 4 cylinders beat them.The NSX is a great car,but it sells all of 5 cars a year.I really doubt that ANY Japanese car company will make any engine bigger than 5 liters.The Vette will keep up with or beat most cars costing more than double the price.By the way I'm on my 4th Honda.I will own more but there are other cars out there


LilChowWow
Profile for LilChowWow
Re: Colbat SS    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 10:10
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In the latest sports compact car magazine. I read about an article were they talk about the upcoming chevy Colbat SS. They talk about all supercharged ecotec 4 cylinders are built in germany. And how the upcoming Colbat SS will use a supercharged 2 litre ecotec, eaton M64 blower. 12 pounds of boost, air to water intercooler. The result is 205hp and 200ib of torque. They have pictures which you can see it sits on a nice set of wheels 17 inch or maybe bigger. and large brakes. To me, this is a chevy version of the dodge SRT-4 which by the way is a turbocharged and intercooled version of the neon, of course with lots of exterior modifications!
99SI
Profile for 99SI
Re: this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 10:23
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Nissan didn't have a sports car for most of the 90's? What was the Twin Turbo Z if it wasn't a sports car? And Nissan does have a 5.6L V8 in their trucks now. Just to clarify. Seems like everyone is forgetting the S2000 in this discussion. Sales avg 8-9K a year. You are right on the NSX. Looks like 200/yr is about the rate they sell. Not b/c it is a bad car, but rather the fact that it fits a very small market.
thunderbird1100
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Re: this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 10:34
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Can we say a Vk56De powered version of the Z? :) I can.

560z!

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 10:45
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my God, what a PIG that would be. The 350Z is porky enough as it is, thanks.

thunderbird1100 wrote:
Can we say a Vk56De powered version of the Z? :) I can.

560z!



kablamo
Profile for kablamo
Re: this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 10:55
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By that logic we wouldn't be able to afford lightbulbs if GE went out of business.

Ford and GM are major employers in the US (and Canada), no doubt, but there are many others - and their overall share of the labour market is increasing, unlike the big 2 that are closing plants and explanding in China instead.

by the way, the automotive industry accounts for about 3% of the US total GDP. that includes all factories (import and domestic brands), parts suppliers - but not dealers or repair shops. a 1-2% change in GDP is significant, but hardly a huge impact. On its own, -1 or -2% GDP year over year is a mild recession.

uhhhh
Profile for uhhhh
Re: this is mainly for ohv and everyone else who thinks american car manufacturers are so great    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-29-2004 12:23
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well the only american cars i mainly like is the ford crown victorias, call me a idiot but them are good cars.

 
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