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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC

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outersquare
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Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-15-2019 22:30
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The evolution of the design from prototype to production would be impacted by a late change to the engine specification – from the prototype's SOHC V6, shared with the Acura Legend sedan, to the production NSX's bespoke DOHC V6 with VTEC valvetrain.

Prior to the press conference, the president of Honda Motor Co., Ltd., Tadashi Kume, unexpectedly decided to fire up the prototype's engine, a sound that could be heard in an adjacent room, where a competing automaker was holding its own press preview. While the noisy blast attracted media attention, Kume turned to the NSX engineering team and asked why the NS-X Concept didn't use the new VTEC technology that had been recently developed at R&D. When told that it was only planned for a 4-cylinder engine application, Kume pushed the team for a VTEC V6 design.


In retrospect the press was right, the original NSX would have had almost no legacy with just a SOHC engine C series like the Legend/Accord. The DOHC VTEC V6 makes the NSX still special today and Honda's president then apparently still had balls.

https://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1376426
https://acuranews.com/acura-automobiles/releases/acura-marks-30-years-since-debut-of-iconic-nsx-supercar
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a26201411/original-nsx-engine-history/

fishchan
Profile for fishchan
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-15-2019 22:51
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outersquare wrote:


Prior to the press conference, the president of Honda Motor Co., Ltd., Tadashi Kume, unexpectedly decided to fire up the prototype's engine, a sound that could be heard in an adjacent room, where a competing automaker was holding its own press preview.



This video reenact that scene in the best way possible. (6:25)





Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-16-2019 05:23
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It's the reason the car got longer and everyone apparently moaned.

Funny how history certainly echoes, in the case of the NC.

Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-16-2019 06:02
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Nick GravesX wrote:
It's the reason the car got longer and everyone apparently moaned.

Funny how history certainly echoes, in the case of the NC.


Yeah, apparently Honda product planner has similar mindset, even decades apart! I'm beginning to think Honda product planning aren't the brightest around, making me questions if the global core model like the Civic, CR-V, Accord, were a strike of genius or just dumb luck.

LemieT
Profile for LemieT
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-16-2019 11:38
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Midi_Amp wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
It's the reason the car got longer and everyone apparently moaned.

Funny how history certainly echoes, in the case of the NC.


Yeah, apparently Honda product planner has similar mindset, even decades apart! I'm beginning to think Honda product planning aren't the brightest around, making me questions if the global core model like the Civic, CR-V, Accord, were a strike of genius or just dumb luck.



I don't think it's that they aren't the brightest. I think they may be too bright for their own good. Often the brightest people are the most conservative and even afraid to do something "out there". It's the reason a V8 or V10 as never carried an H badge past prototype stage except in race form.

Accord, Civic and CR-V are exactly what a smart product plannig office produces... It's just people sometimes need a little emotion to go with their smart every now and then.

In contrast: "Originally engineered to be a performance car, the Viper contained no exterior-mounted door handles or key cylinders and no air conditioning (however, this was added as an option in later models, and climate controls featured a "snowflake" icon, which indicated a potential setting for the A/C). The roof was made from canvas, and the windows were made from vinyl and used zippers to open and close, much like the Jeep Wrangler."

Brilliant or just brazen?

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-16-2019 12:12
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LemieT wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
It's the reason the car got longer and everyone apparently moaned.

Funny how history certainly echoes, in the case of the NC.


Yeah, apparently Honda product planner has similar mindset, even decades apart! I'm beginning to think Honda product planning aren't the brightest around, making me questions if the global core model like the Civic, CR-V, Accord, were a strike of genius or just dumb luck.



I don't think it's that they aren't the brightest. I think they may be too bright for their own good. Often the brightest people are the most conservative and even afraid to do something "out there". It's the reason a V8 or V10 as never carried an H badge past prototype stage except in race form.

Accord, Civic and CR-V are exactly what a smart product plannig office produces... It's just people sometimes need a little emotion to go with their smart every now and then.

In contrast: "Originally engineered to be a performance car, the Viper contained no exterior-mounted door handles or key cylinders and no air conditioning (however, this was added as an option in later models, and climate controls featured a "snowflake" icon, which indicated a potential setting for the A/C). The roof was made from canvas, and the windows were made from vinyl and used zippers to open and close, much like the Jeep Wrangler."

Brilliant or just brazen?


Being really conservative and using engines that are too small to be competitive may be your definition of smart or bright but most people don't consider that to be smart or bright. Bright is using the best engine for the intended purpose, smart is building competitive products that the market wants and will buy and enjoy. Not everyone wants econo hatches, econo cuv's, and family sedans especially when it comes to luxury vehicles or vehicles they are willing to spend more money on.

What is really dumb is saying you are smart or doing something smart when you are clearly not. Trying to compete with balanced RWD cars that don't reek of cost cutting in the luxury market with a lineup based on compromised FWD family sedans and econo cars with blatant cost cutting, fake wood, etc is the last thing I would call smart or bright. Naming your compromised cost cut mostly un competitive lineup "Smart Luxury" really reeks of stupidity. Trying to compete with high performance cars with smaller engines that get tapped out power wise pretty quick is not very smart either, especially when they then just lot them rot and die because there is not much else to do while the competitors leap frog you.

Spending perhaps billions of dollars developing a 8 andr 10 cylinder, RWD platforms, RWD vehicles, Sports car and then killing them permanently because of a temporary economic situation does not sound bright either.

You would think if they were bright they would learn their lesson after trying to use a SOHC 6 cylinder engine in the original NSX but they then tried to do the same exact thing with the next generation and had the same basic results.

Trying to get away with using a family sedan SOHC 6 cylinder that would be un competitive right from the get go and have nowhere to go for future iterations in your exotic "groundbreaking" sportscar and then having to almost start over because it becomes very apparent it can't complete when the project is getting in its mid to final stages is not bright either, it is really stupid especially when the project is again delayed and they have to spend a bunch of money on a new rushed engine and re designs to make it fit.

I don't think there are a lot of smart or bright people on Honda's board making decisions for the company especially when it comes to Acura, I would say clueless and stubborn more accurately describe them.

What is strange is the Honda motorcycle division was all about using larger engines, they put 6 cylinders in motorcycles when the vast majority of other makers used 4 cylinders as their biggest engines if they even offered a 4 cylinder. It helped make Honda motorcycles unique and ground breaking. Honda racing has made 8, 10, 12 cylinders because they knew they needed those engines to compete.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-16-2019 14:21
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Everything this video said about the NSX is so true. Love it!
Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-17-2019 05:36
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lexusgs wrote:
LemieT wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
It's the reason the car got longer and everyone apparently moaned.

Funny how history certainly echoes, in the case of the NC.


Yeah, apparently Honda product planner has similar mindset, even decades apart! I'm beginning to think Honda product planning aren't the brightest around, making me questions if the global core model like the Civic, CR-V, Accord, were a strike of genius or just dumb luck.



I don't think it's that they aren't the brightest. I think they may be too bright for their own good. Often the brightest people are the most conservative and even afraid to do something "out there". It's the reason a V8 or V10 as never carried an H badge past prototype stage except in race form.

Accord, Civic and CR-V are exactly what a smart product plannig office produces... It's just people sometimes need a little emotion to go with their smart every now and then.

In contrast: "Originally engineered to be a performance car, the Viper contained no exterior-mounted door handles or key cylinders and no air conditioning (however, this was added as an option in later models, and climate controls featured a "snowflake" icon, which indicated a potential setting for the A/C). The roof was made from canvas, and the windows were made from vinyl and used zippers to open and close, much like the Jeep Wrangler."

Brilliant or just brazen?


Being really conservative and using engines that are too small to be competitive may be your definition of smart or bright but most people don't consider that to be smart or bright. Bright is using the best engine for the intended purpose, smart is building competitive products that the market wants and will buy and enjoy. Not everyone wants econo hatches, econo cuv's, and family sedans especially when it comes to luxury vehicles or vehicles they are willing to spend more money on.

What is really dumb is saying you are smart or doing something smart when you are clearly not. Trying to compete with balanced RWD cars that don't reek of cost cutting in the luxury market with a lineup based on compromised FWD family sedans and econo cars with blatant cost cutting, fake wood, etc is the last thing I would call smart or bright. Naming your compromised cost cut mostly un competitive lineup "Smart Luxury" really reeks of stupidity. Trying to compete with high performance cars with smaller engines that get tapped out power wise pretty quick is not very smart either, especially when they then just lot them rot and die because there is not much else to do while the competitors leap frog you.

Spending perhaps billions of dollars developing a 8 andr 10 cylinder, RWD platforms, RWD vehicles, Sports car and then killing them permanently because of a temporary economic situation does not sound bright either.

You would think if they were bright they would learn their lesson after trying to use a SOHC 6 cylinder engine in the original NSX but they then tried to do the same exact thing with the next generation and had the same basic results.

Trying to get away with using a family sedan SOHC 6 cylinder that would be un competitive right from the get go and have nowhere to go for future iterations in your exotic "groundbreaking" sportscar and then having to almost start over because it becomes very apparent it can't complete when the project is getting in its mid to final stages is not bright either, it is really stupid especially when the project is again delayed and they have to spend a bunch of money on a new rushed engine and re designs to make it fit.

I don't think there are a lot of smart or bright people on Honda's board making decisions for the company especially when it comes to Acura, I would say clueless and stubborn more accurately describe them.

What is strange is the Honda motorcycle division was all about using larger engines, they put 6 cylinders in motorcycles when the vast majority of other makers used 4 cylinders as their biggest engines if they even offered a 4 cylinder. It helped make Honda motorcycles unique and ground breaking. Honda racing has made 8, 10, 12 cylinders because they knew they needed those engines to compete.




The problem isn’t American Honda/Acura, the problem is the board members and shareholders in Japan. AHM has been fighting and fighting but the stubborn folks wont listen.

Power Of Dreams
Profile for Power Of Dreams
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2019 03:08
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Who was the chief engineer on that, Takanobu Ito?

I apologize for nothing.

LemieT
Profile for LemieT
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2019 11:28
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lexusgs wrote:
LemieT wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
It's the reason the car got longer and everyone apparently moaned.

Funny how history certainly echoes, in the case of the NC.


Yeah, apparently Honda product planner has similar mindset, even decades apart! I'm beginning to think Honda product planning aren't the brightest around, making me questions if the global core model like the Civic, CR-V, Accord, were a strike of genius or just dumb luck.



I don't think it's that they aren't the brightest. I think they may be too bright for their own good. Often the brightest people are the most conservative and even afraid to do something "out there". It's the reason a V8 or V10 as never carried an H badge past prototype stage except in race form.

Accord, Civic and CR-V are exactly what a smart product plannig office produces... It's just people sometimes need a little emotion to go with their smart every now and then.

In contrast: "Originally engineered to be a performance car, the Viper contained no exterior-mounted door handles or key cylinders and no air conditioning (however, this was added as an option in later models, and climate controls featured a "snowflake" icon, which indicated a potential setting for the A/C). The roof was made from canvas, and the windows were made from vinyl and used zippers to open and close, much like the Jeep Wrangler."

Brilliant or just brazen?


Being really conservative and using engines that are too small to be competitive may be your definition of smart or bright but most people don't consider that to be smart or bright. Bright is using the best engine for the intended purpose, smart is building competitive products that the market wants and will buy and enjoy. Not everyone wants econo hatches, econo cuv's, and family sedans especially when it comes to luxury vehicles or vehicles they are willing to spend more money on.

What is really dumb is saying you are smart or doing something smart when you are clearly not. Trying to compete with balanced RWD cars that don't reek of cost cutting in the luxury market with a lineup based on compromised FWD family sedans and econo cars with blatant cost cutting, fake wood, etc is the last thing I would call smart or bright. Naming your compromised cost cut mostly un competitive lineup "Smart Luxury" really reeks of stupidity. Trying to compete with high performance cars with smaller engines that get tapped out power wise pretty quick is not very smart either, especially when they then just lot them rot and die because there is not much else to do while the competitors leap frog you.

Spending perhaps billions of dollars developing a 8 andr 10 cylinder, RWD platforms, RWD vehicles, Sports car and then killing them permanently because of a temporary economic situation does not sound bright either.

You would think if they were bright they would learn their lesson after trying to use a SOHC 6 cylinder engine in the original NSX but they then tried to do the same exact thing with the next generation and had the same basic results.

Trying to get away with using a family sedan SOHC 6 cylinder that would be un competitive right from the get go and have nowhere to go for future iterations in your exotic "groundbreaking" sportscar and then having to almost start over because it becomes very apparent it can't complete when the project is getting in its mid to final stages is not bright either, it is really stupid especially when the project is again delayed and they have to spend a bunch of money on a new rushed engine and re designs to make it fit.

I don't think there are a lot of smart or bright people on Honda's board making decisions for the company especially when it comes to Acura, I would say clueless and stubborn more accurately describe them.

What is strange is the Honda motorcycle division was all about using larger engines, they put 6 cylinders in motorcycles when the vast majority of other makers used 4 cylinders as their biggest engines if they even offered a 4 cylinder. It helped make Honda motorcycles unique and ground breaking. Honda racing has made 8, 10, 12 cylinders because they knew they needed those engines to compete.



We're agreeing in slightly different words. Being able to do a lot with a little is smart. However there comes a time where the phrase "when in Rome..." has to come into play. Give people what they want and not what you tell them they should want.

Honda HQ in Japan seems to have a set of overly conservative minds (to the point of terminal fear it seems) where doing something people might actually like is too scary to back.

I think their minds are still stuck at that "gentleman's agreement" where everything coming from Japan had max out at "276" hp. I recall during that time many other manufacturers where blasting that ceiling to bits while claiming they weren't. Even today apart from the NSX, Honda seems terminally afraid of offering any vehicle with more than 300hp as it would stray too far from the predetermined limits.

I think somebody needs to hire them an in-house psychologist to let them know the shackles have been released.


https://thenewswheel.com/moments-in-car-history-the-japanese-gentlemans-agreement/



sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2019 19:02
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LemieT wrote:

I think somebody needs to hire them an in-house psychologist to let them know the shackles have been released.



Have you not heard of the "less is more" axiom that Honda lives by?

THX17201
Profile for THX17201
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-18-2019 23:45
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sadlerau wrote:
LemieT wrote:

I think somebody needs to hire them an in-house psychologist to let them know the shackles have been released.



Have you not heard of the "less is more" axiom that Honda lives by?



They didn't hear about it when the designed the Civic Type-R!

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Original NSX prototype only had a SOHC V6 without VTEC    (Score: 1, Normal) 02-19-2019 00:24
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THX17201 wrote:
They didn't hear about it when the designed the Civic Type-R!


Kept the ultimate power of the K20 down to a "moderate" level [compared to Mercede's unit] and they haven't endowed the CTR with SH-AWD. I think that qualifies to a degree.

Don't get me wrong, I'm most definitely one of those frustrated souls who wishes Honda would provide much more than they do, but when all is said and done, it is how Honda has always been!! :(



 
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