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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: 2020 Toyota Supra

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rev2damoon
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Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2019 19:37
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NSXman wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The 0-60 is probably using "Toyota methodology" vs the typically conservative "German method".

Nick GravesX wrote:
NSXman wrote:
Vtec_rally wrote:
I like the exterior design and I'm stoked this exists. I don't know if they should've called it Supra though. The soul of any car is its engine and driving dynamics. I think the BMW powerplant diminishes the Supra aura, especially since the last version had such a legendary status.

I definitely see the last iteration of the Supra gaining even more accolades now.

I won't pass further judgement on this car until I read and watch some comparison tests between the Z4 and the new Supra. It will be interesting to see how different or similar both cars are dynamically and how much Supra dna the Toyota engineers have managed to add.

A question for everyone. If Honda re-introduced a Prelude or S2000 with a Mercedes, Mazda, Audi etc... engine, would you still be supportive of the new iteration ? PS I don't mean an engine co-developed from the ground up with another manufacturer.



Yes, I would think it would be ok provided it is a good car.

I would be all over Honda codevelping a 3 row RWD full size SUV.



Nope - if I wanted a trouble-prone bag o'shite, I'd probably just buy the German version and enjoy the favourable lease rate.



I'd give a pretty resounding "no" if Honda went as far as to just drop in an engine from a competitor. If they had hands in developing a new engine with someone, that might be OK if the car is good. I'm still having trouble processing Honda's latest half-ass attempt when they created the Passport.

What I find less acceptable is not only using a competitor's engine, but also using a competitor's chassis, drivetrain, interior... then slapping a heritage name on it for the sake of marketing... and then having a third party factory build it.

At least with the GT86, Toyota had developed a concept, goaded Subaru into building it, gave it a unique chassis and ended up with a vehicle that is unique to both companies.

Technically Toyota didn't even "make" this Supra, they threw some money and engineers at BMW to put on some anime overlays on the Z4 and called it a day. It's a Z4 without the advantage of a open roof and European delivery, at a slight discount.




People keep saying Toyota did nothing on the Supra, but Toyota's explanation of how the Supra came to be doesn't jive with that claim. Toyota claims there was a point after which BMW and Toyota engineers parted ways and hardly talked again for a period of years.


Both teams basically started with the same parts bin, but developed their projects pretty much independently. It's pretty facinating to me. I'd love to sample both cars to see how they compare.

shifter25
Profile for shifter25
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2019 20:00
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You guys like how they utilized Fernando Alonso to reveal the car?



RMTRADER
Profile for RMTRADER
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2019 20:39
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DCR wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
I'm still having trouble processing Honda's latest half-ass attempt when they created the Passport.



I saw one of these in person last week, and I wasn't supposed to see it. The back looks weird because I'm used to looking at the Pilot. The profile is easily the worst view because it seems so off with the squished look and wheelbase. In person, it is extremely underwhelming.



I don't think you purchased the Type R for its looks.

cksi1372
Profile for cksi1372
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-15-2019 23:32
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Dren wrote:
What are some major known issues with the B58? I was looking on-line yesterday and was having trouble finding some. Carfreaked, do you have any insight?


B58 is the successor to the N55, which was pretty rock solid, save for maybe some carbon build up and HPFP issues here and there. Haven't read any major issues on the B58 and Bimmer usually underrates, so guessing the 335hp is too.

Not sure how I feel about this new Supra...looks ok in some views and weird in others. I'd personally probably just go ahead and get an M2, but kudos for Toyota's effort.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2019 10:35
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rev2damoon wrote:
NSXman wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The 0-60 is probably using "Toyota methodology" vs the typically conservative "German method".

Nick GravesX wrote:
NSXman wrote:
Vtec_rally wrote:
I like the exterior design and I'm stoked this exists. I don't know if they should've called it Supra though. The soul of any car is its engine and driving dynamics. I think the BMW powerplant diminishes the Supra aura, especially since the last version had such a legendary status.

I definitely see the last iteration of the Supra gaining even more accolades now.

I won't pass further judgement on this car until I read and watch some comparison tests between the Z4 and the new Supra. It will be interesting to see how different or similar both cars are dynamically and how much Supra dna the Toyota engineers have managed to add.

A question for everyone. If Honda re-introduced a Prelude or S2000 with a Mercedes, Mazda, Audi etc... engine, would you still be supportive of the new iteration ? PS I don't mean an engine co-developed from the ground up with another manufacturer.



Yes, I would think it would be ok provided it is a good car.

I would be all over Honda codevelping a 3 row RWD full size SUV.



Nope - if I wanted a trouble-prone bag o'shite, I'd probably just buy the German version and enjoy the favourable lease rate.



I'd give a pretty resounding "no" if Honda went as far as to just drop in an engine from a competitor. If they had hands in developing a new engine with someone, that might be OK if the car is good. I'm still having trouble processing Honda's latest half-ass attempt when they created the Passport.

What I find less acceptable is not only using a competitor's engine, but also using a competitor's chassis, drivetrain, interior... then slapping a heritage name on it for the sake of marketing... and then having a third party factory build it.

At least with the GT86, Toyota had developed a concept, goaded Subaru into building it, gave it a unique chassis and ended up with a vehicle that is unique to both companies.

Technically Toyota didn't even "make" this Supra, they threw some money and engineers at BMW to put on some anime overlays on the Z4 and called it a day. It's a Z4 without the advantage of a open roof and European delivery, at a slight discount.




People keep saying Toyota did nothing on the Supra, but Toyota's explanation of how the Supra came to be doesn't jive with that claim. Toyota claims there was a point after which BMW and Toyota engineers parted ways and hardly talked again for a period of years.


Both teams basically started with the same parts bin, but developed their projects pretty much independently. It's pretty facinating to me. I'd love to sample both cars to see how they compare.



https://jalopnik.com/here-s-where-toyota-and-bmw-parted-ways-on-the-new-supr-1831780403

It appears that Toyota's claims aren't entirely true, or what basically happened is that Toyota said "Hey, we want RWD sports car!!!!!". BMW sent them test mules with locked engine ECUs (with BMW doing the emissions compliance) and Toyota went to fiddle with body panels and.... some other stuff... in JAPAN! Either way, someone was contracted to do cold weather testing for both cars, and the VIN starts with a "W", so I don't think "We didn't talk to BMW" is true.

HDNBenjamin
Profile for HDNBenjamin
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2019 11:35
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It looks good but the concept is 10x better looking.
NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2019 11:57
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According to Toyota, they had an engineering team and a project manager embedded in Munich.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-16-2019 16:23
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NSXman wrote:
According to Toyota, they had an engineering team and a project manager embedded in Munich.


They had a team in Munich but haven't talked to BMW in years?

NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 00:49
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CarPhreakD wrote:
NSXman wrote:
According to Toyota, they had an engineering team and a project manager embedded in Munich.


They had a team in Munich but haven't talked to BMW in years?



"...With a nearly identical component set as the BMW—including adaptive dampers, a shear plate stiffening the front end, 19-inch BMW-spec Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires (17- and 18-inchers will be available, too), and Brembo brake hardware—the Supra's tuning limitations were defined by a crisp box. The personality instilled in the chassis comes down to the critically important knobs that Toyota controlled. When asked what the Toyota engineers thought of the Z4, they had no answer—not because they didn't want to badmouth the competition/partner, but because they had never driven nor even laid eyes on a Z4.

Both based in Munich, the Z4 and Supra engineering teams split four years ago and haven't communicated about the development paths they've followed since...."

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2020-toyota-supra-prototype-drive

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 08:02
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Germans companies don't play well with Japanese. Neither have they played well with the American car companies. As for both counties, when they set out to dominate the world and get their asses kicked, they try again for world economic domination by making automobiles. Judging by their sales, it appears to be working. Hence we shouldn't be surprise these 2 auto industry superpowers don't play well together. They have quite a lot of pride and only got together to serve a need for their own and pay for it by giving away 1 generation old technology to each other via old BMW parts bin for Supra and Gen 2 Prius technology for BMW. i think BMW got a better deal.


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 08:19
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Toyota dealers will some fun selling these Germanic Supra's when they arrive with all of their bells and whistles.

I personally will miss the all-Toyota Supra's and they seem to be going up in value already.


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 08:22
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Toyota dealers will have some fun selling these Germanic Supra's when they arrive with all of their bells and whistles.

I personally will miss the All-Toyota Supra's and they seem to be going up in value already.


NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 12:19
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superchg2 wrote:
Toyota dealers will have some fun selling these Germanic Supra's when they arrive with all of their bells and whistles.

I personally will miss the All-Toyota Supra's and they seem to be going up in value already.




Don't get me wrong, I would have much preferred an all Toyota Supra, or one where they used a common partner like Yamaha for engine turning or something such as that.

I just understand from a business perspective why they did what they did. If it came down to no Supra, or a Toyota tuned BMW Supra, in 2019/2020 I'd take the latter. It is a much different world than it was 20-30 years ago.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 12:30
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NSXman wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Toyota dealers will have some fun selling these Germanic Supra's when they arrive with all of their bells and whistles.

I personally will miss the All-Toyota Supra's and they seem to be going up in value already.




Don't get me wrong, I would have much preferred an all Toyota Supra, or one where they used a common partner like Yamaha for engine turning or something such as that.

I just understand from a business perspective why they did what they did. If it came down to no Supra, or a Toyota tuned BMW Supra, in 2019/2020 I'd take the latter. It is a much different world than it was 20-30 years ago.


I agree. These days, the smart money is on SUV's (and Toyota has plenty).

Sports cars have a limited audience, so just the fact that Toyota has a Supra is a plus, but please don't ask for a stick shift in your new Supra.
:)

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 13:00
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NSXman wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Toyota dealers will have some fun selling these Germanic Supra's when they arrive with all of their bells and whistles.

I personally will miss the All-Toyota Supra's and they seem to be going up in value already.




Don't get me wrong, I would have much preferred an all Toyota Supra, or one where they used a common partner like Yamaha for engine turning or something such as that.

I just understand from a business perspective why they did what they did. If it came down to no Supra, or a Toyota tuned BMW Supra, in 2019/2020 I'd take the latter. It is a much different world than it was 20-30 years ago.


This is something that I've come to accept myself. Enthusiasts are a passionate bunch, and that passion sometimes leaves us blind to reality. It's a tough market for these types of cars now. That's why there's no Honda in this space and why I wouldn't balk at the idea of Honda partnering with somebody.

I think it's bloody insane for an enthusiast to choose 'nonexistence' for a car like the Supra versus Toyota going out and finding a partner to make the business case and bringing the car to reality. I also don't think the strong reaction to the use of the Supra name plate is warranted either. At the end of the day it is Toyota's name plate and they can make it into whatever they wish, from whatever parts they deem appropriate. Now, if they made it into a crossover SUV or something...well that would be an entirely different story....

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 15:38
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Honestly, if all Toyota was going to do was slap a sticker on a rebodied Z4, I'd rather they not have done it. What's the point? It would be like putting a Honda badge on the next gen Ford Mustang and proclaiming the return of the S2000.

The Toyobaru was easy to stomach because it was a true collaboration with a truly unique products to both companies. The Supra is Toyota throwing money at BMW to give them some test mules to play with and then carve out some production space at Magna Steyr. The most cynical result of getting some #brand #marketing goodwill. The car is a total fraud.

Also, I don't know if people are mistranslating what the chief engineer is saying but it appears that Tetsuya Tada has been saying things that are either untrue or just confusing: https://jalopnik.com/i-just-dont-believe-what-the-toyota-supras-chief-engine-1831838527. At times what he said about the development of the Toyobaru ran counter to what Subaru claims, and it appears to be happening again.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 16:05
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Honestly, if all Toyota was going to do was slap a sticker on a rebodied Z4, I'd rather they not have done it. What's the point? It would be like putting a Honda badge on the next gen Ford Mustang and proclaiming the return of the S2000.

The Toyobaru was easy to stomach because it was a true collaboration with a truly unique products to both companies. The Supra is Toyota throwing money at BMW to give them some test mules to play with and then carve out some production space at Magna Steyr. The most cynical result of getting some #brand #marketing goodwill. The car is a total fraud.

Also, I don't know if people are mistranslating what the chief engineer is saying but it appears that Tetsuya Tada has been saying things that are either untrue or just confusing: https://jalopnik.com/i-just-dont-believe-what-the-toyota-supras-chief-engine-1831838527. At times what he said about the development of the Toyobaru ran counter to what Subaru claims, and it appears to be happening again.


I imagine that Toyota made sure that the new Supra is a car that they can warranty and will be reliable.

The basic design of the car looks pretty solid and I would stop short of calling it a fraud. People who go into the Toyota dealer wanting a sporty car will probably be glad to pay the $50K for this baby!

NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 20:32
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Honestly, if all Toyota was going to do was slap a sticker on a rebodied Z4, I'd rather they not have done it. What's the point? It would be like putting a Honda badge on the next gen Ford Mustang and proclaiming the return of the S2000.

The Toyobaru was easy to stomach because it was a true collaboration with a truly unique products to both companies. The Supra is Toyota throwing money at BMW to give them some test mules to play with and then carve out some production space at Magna Steyr. The most cynical result of getting some #brand #marketing goodwill. The car is a total fraud.

Also, I don't know if people are mistranslating what the chief engineer is saying but it appears that Tetsuya Tada has been saying things that are either untrue or just confusing: https://jalopnik.com/i-just-dont-believe-what-the-toyota-supras-chief-engine-1831838527. At times what he said about the development of the Toyobaru ran counter to what Subaru claims, and it appears to be happening again.



Are you purposefully just trying to downgrade Toyota’s involvemt in the project? Clearly they did a lot more than get mules and slap panels on them. And why do your spider senses automatically take everyone at their word but Toyota?

As far as the S2000 goes, or the Prelude, or what ever. It might be a bitter pill to share at platform and engine as I admit the Supra is in some part, but the longer Honda sits out the game the more they lose credibility in the arena. The Supra and GT86 are clearly in existence to push the Toyota brand forward with regards to sports cars. Honda is being purist I suppose and in the process is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Toyota is being realist and as such is the one being sports cars to market, if I can define sports cars as a RWD coupe for this arguemet. Throw in the Type R if you’d like.


Honda, purist, 0 (maybe 1) sports car. Toyota, realist, 2 sports cars.

Toyota has a unique way of accomplishing it, but Honda is somehow more noble I guess?

garoto
Profile for garoto
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-17-2019 22:20
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NSXman wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Honestly, if all Toyota was going to do was slap a sticker on a rebodied Z4, I'd rather they not have done it. What's the point? It would be like putting a Honda badge on the next gen Ford Mustang and proclaiming the return of the S2000.

The Toyobaru was easy to stomach because it was a true collaboration with a truly unique products to both companies. The Supra is Toyota throwing money at BMW to give them some test mules to play with and then carve out some production space at Magna Steyr. The most cynical result of getting some #brand #marketing goodwill. The car is a total fraud.

Also, I don't know if people are mistranslating what the chief engineer is saying but it appears that Tetsuya Tada has been saying things that are either untrue or just confusing: https://jalopnik.com/i-just-dont-believe-what-the-toyota-supras-chief-engine-1831838527. At times what he said about the development of the Toyobaru ran counter to what Subaru claims, and it appears to be happening again.



Are you purposefully just trying to downgrade Toyota’s involvemt in the project? Clearly they did a lot more than get mules and slap panels on them. And why do your spider senses automatically take everyone at their word but Toyota?

As far as the S2000 goes, or the Prelude, or what ever. It might be a bitter pill to share at platform and engine as I admit the Supra is in some part, but the longer Honda sits out the game the more they lose credibility in the arena. The Supra and GT86 are clearly in existence to push the Toyota brand forward with regards to sports cars. Honda is being purist I suppose and in the process is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Toyota is being realist and as such is the one being sports cars to market, if I can define sports cars as a RWD coupe for this arguemet. Throw in the Type R if you’d like.


Honda, purist, 0 (maybe 1) sports car. Toyota, realist, 2 sports cars.

Toyota has a unique way of accomplishing it, but Honda is somehow more noble I guess?



I don't like the Supra, not because its a BMW, whatever. Sharing stuff is done all the time in technology, nothing wrong with carmakers wanting to do that too. But if it does not have a Toyota engine/tranny (does it?) then its a fraud. I don't like it because it seems to me like it won't have a MT, yet. We'll see about that. And I don't like two-seater coupes that aren't convertible, its like taking on all the compromises with nothing that offsets it. The convertible part, for me, offsets the compromises that an S2000 and Miata put forth. The Toyota 86 same, no reason to not offer a convertible variant.

Bro_Phoenix
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Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 03:23
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Totally agree with NSXman. Toyota got it done...twice...and will have good to excellent RWD sport coupes on the road for enthusiasts to choose from. Honda? crickets.
CarPhreakD
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Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 10:50
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I don't really see how "nobility" comes into play when we're talking about for-profit, national corporations. Honda clearly doesn't have anything to compete in this space and their last product (the Passport) is underwhelming, but this whataboutism doesn't excuse the Supra.

Honestly, I think at $50K the car is a great deal and it's even better if you were looking for a discount Z4 hardtop, and I won't bemoan anyone for buying one. But at worst I look at this as a marketing exercise, and at best it's a blatant 'badge engineered' product.

NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 12:10
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I don't really see how "nobility" comes into play when we're talking about for-profit, national corporations. Honda clearly doesn't have anything to compete in this space and their last product (the Passport) is underwhelming, but this whataboutism doesn't excuse the Supra.

Honestly, I think at $50K the car is a great deal and it's even better if you were looking for a discount Z4 hardtop, and I won't bemoan anyone for buying one. But at worst I look at this as a marketing exercise, and at best it's a blatant 'badge engineered' product.



The only nobility is to truthfully and ethically keep your doors open and truthfully and ethically put the other guy out of business.


GoFaster
Profile for GoFaster
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 16:44
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Supra, M2, Kia Stinger, or Ford Mustang GT350. Glorious field and maybe I am a neanderthal American, but have you heard the GT350? V8 power wins.

BTW - I wouldn't be surprised at all to pocket the $20K and go CTR. For me gettting the most out of a little is appealing.



NealX
Profile for NealX
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-18-2019 17:45
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GoFaster wrote:
Supra, M2, Kia Stinger, or Ford Mustang GT350. Glorious field and maybe I am a neanderthal American, but have you heard the GT350? V8 power wins.

BTW - I wouldn't be surprised at all to pocket the $20K and go CTR. For me gettting the most out of a little is appealing.




As much as I like the look of the Stinger, I'd likely substitute the G70.



superchg2
Profile for superchg2
2020 Toyota Supra auctions for $ 2.1 Million    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-20-2019 14:31
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I don't really see how "nobility" comes into play when we're talking about for-profit, national corporations. Honda clearly doesn't have anything to compete in this space and their last product (the Passport) is underwhelming, but this whataboutism doesn't excuse the Supra.

Honestly, I think at $50K the car is a great deal and it's even better if you were looking for a discount Z4 hardtop, and I won't bemoan anyone for buying one. But at worst I look at this as a marketing exercise, and at best it's a blatant 'badge engineered' product.


I guess everything is relative since this Supra just auctioned for $2.1 million dollars, for a good cause!

https://jalopnik.com/the-first-mkv-toyota-supra-just-sold-for-2-1-million-1831905825



danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2019 06:21
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revvin wrote:
chhan02 wrote:
It's odd to me because the FT-1 Concept looks so damn good. The production model isn't too far off either...yet...the production model looks cheap to me - like a beefier version of the GT86.

They took a GTR sized design and crammed it all on a z4 coupe, no wonder it looks like a 50k gt86.

Proportions are everything.

+1
(from someone that truly loved the concept).

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2020 Toyota Supra    (Score: 1, Normal) 01-22-2019 11:13
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If the wheelbase was 5 inches longer and the body was longer, especially in the rear and the front end sloped down a little more it would be a good looking car, the Z4 roadster proportions kill the look of the car but you can tell from the side view there is potential if it was just longer which would also allow them to give the roof a nicer slope too.


 
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