[home][rumors and news][model release matrix][dealer network][desktop calendar][exhaust notes][tov forums][links][search][sponsors][garage][login]

Tire Rack Upgrade Garage
 Search for a Dealer:
 Canadian Flag US Flag
 Honda Acura
 ZIP  
American Honda Reports November Sales
More.......................
2019 Honda Passport Makes World Debut: Adventure-Ready All-New 5-passenger SUV at 2018 LA Auto Show
More.......................
LIVE from Los Angeles: TOV's coverage of the 2019 Honda Passport reveal
More.......................
First Look: DNA Collectibles releases Urban EV Concept 1:18 scale model
More.......................
All-New 2019 Honda Passport Starts Adventure with Global Debut in Los Angeles
More.......................
2019 CR-V goes on sale with few changes, nominal price increase
More.......................
2019 Honda Civic Type R and Civic Hatchback Accelerate into Dealerships
More.......................
American Honda Reports October Sales
More.......................
RDX --> Re: RDX anecdote
Join Discussion......
Ridgeline - Modifications --> Re: Rear Door Hack
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> And you thought you were the intended beneficiary of the proposed lower gas mileage rules...
Join Discussion......
Photoshops --> Re: Legend
Join Discussion......
Videos --> Re: The NSX replaces the ZR1
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: Aston Martin Valkarie ICE (Cosworth Design)
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: TheStraightPipes youtube car channel reviews
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: " The Sedans are coming, the Sedans are coming! "
Join Discussion......
TSX --> Re: TSX+Conti Control Contact AS vs 9" snow
Join Discussion......
Fuel Cell Technology --> Dispenser Issues and Infrared Interface
Join Discussion......
CR-V --> Re: CR-V MMC guesses
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: World Superbikes Ten Kate Team Bankrupt
Join Discussion......
Civic --> Re: 22 mm Progressive Sway Bar on Civic Si
Join Discussion......
Videos --> Re: Vivid Racing Tune the NSX MkII
Join Discussion......
2019 Acura NSX PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Acura ILX
Read Article....................
2019 Acura ILX PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Honda Pilot
Read Article....................
2019 Honda Pilot PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Honda Insight
Read Article....................

[fancy] [flat] [simple]
TOV Forums > CR-V > > Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T

Go to:

Viewing Threshold (What is this?)

Thread Page - 1 2 3 [4]
Author
  Post New Thread
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-07-2018 17:12
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Gfn8r wrote:
Honda has always cut any heat output to the cabin until warmup is underway on auto-climate models (except in fully-manual overrride or in Defrost), of which I believe the CR-V is so-equipped across the range. Per every Honda O/M Iíve seen, on all automatic/CVT-equipped cars, upshifts are delayed in order to run the engine at higher RPMs to facilitate a faster warmup.

I wonder if someone simply messed-up the programming somewhere, and it wasnít caught during testing?

Certainly does cause a little consternation, since these damned turbo motors are just adding needless complexity for any real-world gain.

But I repeat myself...!



Unless Honda has drastically changed their rigorous testing processes (or have been misrepresenting the thoroughness of their R&D testing in the past), I don't think this could have been something that simply "slipped through the cracks" during testing. I would be very concerned if it was in fact something that failed to be caught during their typical testing routines.

Now, I suppose it's possible that a last minute calibration change (EPA) or engineering change went through that was assumed to have been "safe" after some cursory testing, but that's still uncharacteristic of how we know Honda to operate.

Or it could simply be a bad batch of parts. It's difficult to really know. It seems like the fix should be relatively easy if the problem is related to the engine running too cold and too rich, but at this point we'll have to wait and see.


Regarding your final comment, for the most part I agree that many past turbocharged engines have largely failed to deliver on their promises of combining fuel economy with performance (with many of them in fact falling well short on both counts). But the L15B series is legit. This engine is simply incredible in the way it delivers fantastic fuel economy with "on demand" performance. Hopefully the oil contamination thing is a minor glitch in the programming because this is a superb mainstream engine.

Even the K20C1 in my Civic Type R is pretty impressive. It's no fuel sipper (compared to the L15B) but it makes 50% more power than the K20Z3 did in my Civic Si and about 100% more torque, yet I am able to consistently achieve better overall fuel economy (city and highway) than I ever could manage in the Si.



Last edited by JeffX on 11-07-2018 17:53
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2018 00:02
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
JeffX wrote:
Gfn8r wrote:
Honda has always cut any heat output to the cabin until warmup is underway on auto-climate models (except in fully-manual overrride or in Defrost), of which I believe the CR-V is so-equipped across the range. Per every Honda O/M Iíve seen, on all automatic/CVT-equipped cars, upshifts are delayed in order to run the engine at higher RPMs to facilitate a faster warmup.

I wonder if someone simply messed-up the programming somewhere, and it wasnít caught during testing?

Certainly does cause a little consternation, since these damned turbo motors are just adding needless complexity for any real-world gain.

But I repeat myself...!



Unless Honda has drastically changed their rigorous testing processes (or have been misrepresenting the thoroughness of their R&D testing in the past), I don't think this could have been something that simply "slipped through the cracks" during testing. I would be very concerned if it was in fact something that failed to be caught during their typical testing routines.

Now, I suppose it's possible that a last minute calibration change (EPA) or engineering change went through that was assumed to have been "safe" after some cursory testing, but that's still uncharacteristic of how we know Honda to operate.

Or it could simply be a bad batch of parts. It's difficult to really know. It seems like the fix should be relatively easy if the problem is related to the engine running too cold and too rich, but at this point we'll have to wait and see.


Regarding your final comment, for the most part I agree that many past turbocharged engines have largely failed to deliver on their promises of combining fuel economy with performance (with many of them in fact falling well short on both counts). But the L15B series is legit. This engine is simply incredible in the way it delivers fantastic fuel economy with "on demand" performance. Hopefully the oil contamination thing is a minor glitch in the programming because this is a superb mainstream engine.

Even the K20C1 in my Civic Type R is pretty impressive. It's no fuel sipper (compared to the L15B) but it makes 50% more power than the K20Z3 did in my Civic Si and about 100% more torque, yet I am able to consistently achieve better overall fuel economy (city and highway) than I ever could manage in the Si.


My '06 Si steadfastly maintains about 28 m.p.g. As you mentioned, it is great that your K20C1 has improved economy with all that power. I will soldier on with my Si.


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2018 10:21
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Yeah, unless Honda actually overlooked something (which is possible but unlikely since their documentation process should be way mature at this point), this is either due to some scenario that they haven't encountered before, or it's because of some balance they are trying to strike which caused this miss. Or something is defective. The fact that a similar engine is used in a similar configuration in the civic but doesn't appear to exhibit the same issues is interesting. What else is specific to the CR-V?

What doesn't surprise me is that if it was a miss, that it would be a PCV related issue. I think most engineers still think of it as a black magic and most people ignore it until it becomes a problem. That's also how you got DI valve junk buildup issues.

PoweredbyHondaX
Profile for PoweredbyHondaX
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2018 22:41
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
some people are saying after driving everyday in summer 45min both ways they still have this issue. crv.

im worried to buy crv now. my 15crv lease is up in 1 year and im thinking all new santa fe 2.0t instead? anyone know anything about the hyundai engine?

PoweredbyHondaX
Profile for PoweredbyHondaX
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 09:44
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, unless Honda actually overlooked something (which is possible but unlikely since their documentation process should be way mature at this point), this is either due to some scenario that they haven't encountered before, or it's because of some balance they are trying to strike which caused this miss. Or something is defective. The fact that a similar engine is used in a similar configuration in the civic but doesn't appear to exhibit the same issues is interesting. What else is specific to the CR-V?

What doesn't surprise me is that if it was a miss, that it would be a PCV related issue. I think most engineers still think of it as a black magic and most people ignore it until it becomes a problem. That's also how you got DI valve junk buildup issues.



some civic owners are reporting this as well.

Mikgtir
Profile for Mikgtir
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 09:51
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
PoweredbyHondaX wrote:
some people are saying after driving everyday in summer 45min both ways they still have this issue. crv.

im worried to buy crv now. my 15crv lease is up in 1 year and im thinking all new santa fe 2.0t instead? anyone know anything about the hyundai engine?


Wait for the hybrid? 2.0 Atkinson engine, no turbo. Plenty of torque and perfect fuel economy?

Fester
Profile for Fester
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 10:21
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
My wife's CRV actually warms up faster than my 1.5T Civic. Usually at or near 1/2 way point on the gauge in 1 1/2 to 2 miles unless brutally cold. I did notice the smell of gas when she would only drive the car several miles a day (Hot/or Cold) but the oil level didn't rise. Now that she drives 20 miles each way I didn't smell gas in the oil like I did previously and this was before the oil was changed.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 12:06
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
PoweredbyHondaX wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, unless Honda actually overlooked something (which is possible but unlikely since their documentation process should be way mature at this point), this is either due to some scenario that they haven't encountered before, or it's because of some balance they are trying to strike which caused this miss. Or something is defective. The fact that a similar engine is used in a similar configuration in the civic but doesn't appear to exhibit the same issues is interesting. What else is specific to the CR-V?

What doesn't surprise me is that if it was a miss, that it would be a PCV related issue. I think most engineers still think of it as a black magic and most people ignore it until it becomes a problem. That's also how you got DI valve junk buildup issues.



some civic owners are reporting this as well.



Sure. "Some". I think if you are skeptical, you should just do the safe thing and buy the Santa Fe. No point worrying yourself if you're paranoid enough for anecdotal reports to cause second thoughts.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 12:12
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Although now that I think about it, Hyundai did suffer from oil sludging just a few years back, just because they didn't design their PCV system to have sufficient drainback under engine loads. Hopefully they fixed that, I think they redesigned their valve covers after that fiasco.

Gfn8r
Profile for Gfn8r
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-10-2018 16:12
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
JeffX wrote:
Gfn8r wrote:
Honda has always cut any heat output to the cabin until warmup is underway on auto-climate models (except in fully-manual overrride or in Defrost), of which I believe the CR-V is so-equipped across the range. Per every Honda O/M Iíve seen, on all automatic/CVT-equipped cars, upshifts are delayed in order to run the engine at higher RPMs to facilitate a faster warmup.

I wonder if someone simply messed-up the programming somewhere, and it wasnít caught during testing?

Certainly does cause a little consternation, since these damned turbo motors are just adding needless complexity for any real-world gain.

But I repeat myself...!



Unless Honda has drastically changed their rigorous testing processes (or have been misrepresenting the thoroughness of their R&D testing in the past), I don't think this could have been something that simply "slipped through the cracks" during testing. I would be very concerned if it was in fact something that failed to be caught during their typical testing routines.

Now, I suppose it's possible that a last minute calibration change (EPA) or engineering change went through that was assumed to have been "safe" after some cursory testing, but that's still uncharacteristic of how we know Honda to operate.

Or it could simply be a bad batch of parts. It's difficult to really know. It seems like the fix should be relatively easy if the problem is related to the engine running too cold and too rich, but at this point we'll have to wait and see.

Regarding your final comment, for the most part I agree that many past turbocharged engines have largely failed to deliver on their promises of combining fuel economy with performance (with many of them in fact falling well short on both counts). But the L15B series is legit. This engine is simply incredible in the way it delivers fantastic fuel economy with "on demand" performance. Hopefully the oil contamination thing is a minor glitch in the programming because this is a superb mainstream engine.

Even the K20C1 in my Civic Type R is pretty impressive. It's no fuel sipper (compared to the L15B) but it makes 50% more power than the K20Z3 did in my Civic Si and about 100% more torque, yet I am able to consistently achieve better overall fuel economy (city and highway) than I ever could manage in the Si.



The L15T is a nice motoróI had an Accord Sport CVT for a couple days this past summer when I had my 2013 at the dealer for a detail. The extra torque gives it a nice feel down low, and has more than enough cajones to beat, much less keep up with, traffic! Better all-around than the K24/CVT combo I tested two days after the 9th-Gens went on sale. (Isnít there VTEC on the Accord L15T, unlike the CR-V and Civic? Have there been these sorts of leak-down issues with Accords? I donít recall seeing anything on here or any other Accord boards.) I also took a CR-V out for a spin in the spring, and found similar improvements: the new motor has nice power in the lower part of the tachometer, unlike the previous-generation CR-V with CVT, in which the engine and the transmission just didnít seem to get along wellóthat combo was more sluggish in traffic versus the pre-MMC powertrain, resulting in the need to give the car a bit more throttle than normal to move out smartly if needed, and until one would adjust to it, youíd end up with the ďrubber-bandĒ effect. The five-speed T/C automatic was a better match!

I talked with one of the salesmen at my dealer last weekend when I happened by after voting early, and he said I could probably take an Accord 2.0T out overnight when they do my oil change and fall detail next month, so I look forward to that, since I will be trading up to a 2019 Touring next spring or summer, and I want to see how that powertrain is (as I posted a link to Hondaís presser on the 2019 Accords in that forumóas was speculated, a Touring, in Hybrid or 2.0T guise, is the only way to get factory NAVI, though EX-Ls are still available with all three engines). From what you folks on the board seem to say, itís got the ability to briefly overwhelm the traction-control almost at will, will stick with the V6 in a drag race up through illegal speeds even in Texas before it runs out of breath (with the V6 the ultimate winner, but the K20T still acquitting itself well), and while not as turbine-smooth as the J35, itís still refined enough, and maybe even a little better in that regard than the same-sized engines in the entry-level luxo makes. (As Iíve said, if itís as smooth as even the first VTEC four in the 5th-Gen Accord EXs, much less the F22 in the 4th-Gens, it will be a less bitter pill to swallow; as it was, the L15T in that Accord I drove in June had no vibration whatsoever transmitted into any part of the cabin while at idle and in gear, A/C or no, and to me, thatís half the battle, as long as the engine doesnít go all agricultural and R18 on you when you cane it!) I think Iíve even read someplace, here or elsewhere, that if my worst fears are realized and the turbocharger would need replacement, parts and labor would actually come in a couple-hundred dollars below the cost of a J35 timing belt/water pump replacement, provided the rest of the engine is still OK. Hopefully the oil-life computer is calibrated properly for the increased demand, and the resulting change intervals will result in a long-lived engine; Blackstone Labs has told me that the OLIs in the Hondas have shown to be pretty accurate, and hopefully that will continue with the turbos. (Obviously, itís critical to NOT let that lapse with these engines!)

As for this leak-down problem, it just seemed like Honda was regressing back into denial, just like what happened when the V6 transmission issues first came to light, is all. My dealerís service manager will go to the mat for his customers all day, any day, and the dealer principal will always back him up in doing so, but some dealers donít work that way, and Iíd hate to see this problem hurt Honda such that people are still talking about it fifteen years from now!

JonH
Profile for JonH
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2018 19:16
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I have friends with a 2017 CRV that they really like. Good power, great mileage, comfortable.

When issues first appeared in China I alerted him to watch his oil level. When issues with US cars appeared I talked to him again. He is located north of Toronto, and lives in a rural area. It is at least a 20 minute highway drive - minimum - to anywhere, and it is just starting to get down to freezing at night , but still nice during the day. The car is always garaged. No problems with heat production or oil dilution last winter.

A couple of weeks ago, with 17,000km on the car and 1,700 after the last oil change, he noticed that the oil level was 5/8" high. He reported this to his dealer and was put on the list for THE FIX.

THE FIX happened today.
On the invoice it states:
C: Product Update
C: Engine Oil Dilution
C: Replace Engine Oil and Climate Control Unit. Update PGM-FI & TCM Software

This took about 1.5 hours.
When he asked the tech if this would solve the problem, he said he got a weak smile.
Doesn't sound like Honda is too sure of the fix.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 11:32
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
If he measured his oil level after a 20 minute drive (and not in the middle or right before), then yeah, that sounds like a candidate for the repair. What baffles me right now are the people who have apparently been driving for a long time but their cars are not warming up- that to me speaks to a different issue that can lead to excessive oil contamination.

I've also been thinking more about the fact that some people are getting misfire codes, and what I surmise is that the engine is ingesting so much fuel/water vapor through the PCV system when the oil finally does warm up (i.e. it's actually expelling all its contaminants as designed), that it's causing issues. I'm actually hoping that the apparent reports of stalling is caused by the misfiring and not because there is excessive crank windage.

Anyways, there's no way that a technician can tell a customer that it's a true "fix", considering it's a reprogramming done by engineers on the other side of the world and is meant to address an issue that is inconsistent and largely comes from driving habits. And that's putting aside the fact that some technicians don't actually understand how the PCV system works in relation to vehicle cold starts. He can't know if it works, until you come back to yell at him.

As I have mentioned- oil contamination on engine startup due to condensation (similar to you breathing on cold glass) and fuel enrichment cycle is something that every engine experiences. Statistically, the number of people who get the 'rising fuel level effect' is usually limited to a small percentage of the population- but it does happen. Honda clearly did something that pushed that statistical bubble to a greater percentage of the population, so all this "fix" does is push it hopefully back out of range for most consumers. If you are a natural granny driver though, you are always going to be at higher risk of this happening to you than everyone else.


sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2018 03:26
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I don't know if this video has already been posted on here, but how long before this sort of "PR" has an effect on sales??

ABC15 report.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5JzSulIaQY

Design
Profile for Design
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2018 11:56
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
If he measured his oil level after a 20 minute drive (and not in the middle or right before), then yeah, that sounds like a candidate for the repair. What baffles me right now are the people who have apparently been driving for a long time but their cars are not warming up- that to me speaks to a different issue that can lead to excessive oil contamination.

I've also been thinking more about the fact that some people are getting misfire codes, and what I surmise is that the engine is ingesting so much fuel/water vapor through the PCV system when the oil finally does warm up (i.e. it's actually expelling all its contaminants as designed), that it's causing issues. I'm actually hoping that the apparent reports of stalling is caused by the misfiring and not because there is excessive crank windage.

Anyways, there's no way that a technician can tell a customer that it's a true "fix", considering it's a reprogramming done by engineers on the other side of the world and is meant to address an issue that is inconsistent and largely comes from driving habits. And that's putting aside the fact that some technicians don't actually understand how the PCV system works in relation to vehicle cold starts. He can't know if it works, until you come back to yell at him.

As I have mentioned- oil contamination on engine startup due to condensation (similar to you breathing on cold glass) and fuel enrichment cycle is something that every engine experiences. Statistically, the number of people who get the 'rising fuel level effect' is usually limited to a small percentage of the population- but it does happen. Honda clearly did something that pushed that statistical bubble to a greater percentage of the population, so all this "fix" does is push it hopefully back out of range for most consumers. If you are a natural granny driver though, you are always going to be at higher risk of this happening to you than everyone else.




Some of these cases have stemmed from a failed/leaking injector, which is coming up a bit more often than Honda would like. I am thinking this would take on the perception of dilution as a secondary symptom.

Our local dealer has tracked four separate cases - all on the 1.5T.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2018 12:37
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
A leaky injector is a plausible root cause. But Honda isn't calling for that on the TSB. If we are seeing injector failures in the field this early, have Honda properly identified the root cause? Did the dealer confirm a fault injector or were they doing just doing a shot gun approach and replacing a bunch of suspect parts?

The communication from Honda could be better. Do we know why this TSB is only applicable to some markets? Aren't Canadian vehicle have the same system as US cars?

On another note, have we found the root cause for the overheating CTR? Was it a bad batch of thermostats like the ones on the NSX causing no-start condition once it overheated?

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2018 02:38
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
silverf16 wrote:
A leaky injector is a plausible root cause. But Honda isn't calling for that on the TSB. If we are seeing injector failures in the field this early, have Honda properly identified the root cause? Did the dealer confirm a fault injector or were they doing just doing a shot gun approach and replacing a bunch of suspect parts?

The communication from Honda could be better. Do we know why this TSB is only applicable to some markets? Aren't Canadian vehicle have the same system as US cars?

On another note, have we found the root cause for the overheating CTR? Was it a bad batch of thermostats like the ones on the NSX causing no-start condition once it overheated?



I thought about leaky injectors when the topic first came up. Based on what I have seen in the past, it is one of the more likely causes of finding tons of gas in the oil (especially if temperature cycling isn't an issue). Could possibly explain some of the other issues too, such as misfiring because if the spray pattern isn't good enough the fuel might not be burning as well. I have seen that too.

I have also seen accelerated injector failure on DI engines (Diesels have had this problem for years), as well as shorter lifespans on the HPFPs which are delivering tremendous amounts of pressure.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2018 12:38
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
You wouldn't normally see it as a oil contamination issue because a leaky injector should set a misfire code.
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2018 12:45
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
You wouldn't normally see it as a oil contamination issue because a leaky injector should set a misfire code.

And these affected CRV's don't seem to be throwing codes, just rising crankcase level.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2018 14:08
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
JeffX wrote:
Sasker wrote:
Honda's reputation as a reliable brand has taken big hits in the past several years. The trend continues.





I'm curious to hear from other CR-V owners if they're observing this same sort of situation. I have driven a number of 2017-2018 CR-Vs in varying weather conditions and I've not seen any of them warm up as slowly as the one in this video did. I would have definitely noticed if they had.

If the gauge is accurate, and this is common then clearly this has to be the key factor towards this fuel dilution problem.

Out of curiosity I just took 2 of our cars out (Type R and 2016 CR-V) to see how long I'd have to drive for the temp gauge to come up.

I used the OBD-II gauge to monitor the water temps as well. The water temp started moving up almost instantly when I started either car (outside temp is mild - about 60F) but just idling for a minute or so it didn't move up much beyond about 115. Then driving the car I was seeing the needle moving within the first half mile and the temps moved up pretty quickly. It only took about 1 - 1.5 miles @45mph to get the water temp above 160F, at which point the gauge on the dash was showing about 1/3 (Type R) to nearly 3/8 (CR-V) through the range. Within 2-2.5 miles both cars locked in at 172F on the water temp and the gauge had settled into the "normal" warm position (which is probably around 3/8ths). The closest thing I have to the 2017 CRV 1.5T would be our '17 Si (essentially the exact same engine, though I'm guessing that the cooling system requirements are different) and I've never seen it exhibit this "slow to warm" behavior. If anything, it tends to warm up quicker than our K24 CR-V. I wonder what the heck they've done for the CR-Vs to be like this. I'm inclined to believe that this is a software or hardware flaw and the CR-V wasn't engineered to do this.



As a followup to this post, I took the Si for a spin this morning. The weather is much warmer this week than it was last week so it was already 60F outside when I started. But like the CR-V and Type R, I was already at over 160F by 1.5 miles and at "full" temp of 172 shortly after that (I got caught at the same light). So if there are 2017+ CR-Vs out there driving around for 20+ minutes without reaching full operating temp (like the one in this video), then I would say there's definitely something amiss. I have about 1500 miles on the Si's oil and there's not a hint of gas smell.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2018 14:13
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
You wouldn't normally see it as a oil contamination issue because a leaky injector should set a misfire code.


Depends on the nature and size of the leak. If you've got injectors with a bad seal or something, but it's relatively small, it won't have much of an effect during running conditions (although you might see a large negative long term fuel trim number at idle). But that same injector would continue to drain fuel into the cylinder after shutdown until the rail pressure drops to zero.

This fuel would eventually make its way into the crankcase if allowed to sit for long enough. There would also be a point where you'd get a hard start condition due to the excess fuel still in the chamber, but that would occur over a relatively small window of time (long enough after shutdown to accumulate fuel, but not long enough for it to migrate past the rings).


Given that this problem seems focused on cold weather climates, and a leaky injector should have impact under any temperature conditions, a leaky injector is still unlikely to be a primary cause.

SC

PoweredbyHondaX
Profile for PoweredbyHondaX
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2018 01:27
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
Although now that I think about it, Hyundai did suffer from oil sludging just a few years back, just because they didn't design their PCV system to have sufficient drainback under engine loads. Hopefully they fixed that, I think they redesigned their valve covers after that fiasco.



ugh. there is a diesel coming in 2020. 2.2L know anyting about that one? lol

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2018 03:22
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
You wouldn't normally see it as a oil contamination issue because a leaky injector should set a misfire code.


Hasn't a misfire problem also been a part of this whole thing? I was pretty sure I read that somewhere.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2018 12:53
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
You wouldn't normally see it as a oil contamination issue because a leaky injector should set a misfire code.


Hasn't a misfire problem also been a part of this whole thing? I was pretty sure I read that somewhere.



Yes it was part of the TSB, though it doesn't necessarily always set a code, and the mechanism for the misfire appears to be something else (specifically, the PCV system suddenly swallowing a ton of fuel/vapor when the oil finally warms up and things start evaporating).

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2018 13:07
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
This doesn't directly relate to the L15B but I found some of the details in this Jalopnik article about GM's new 2.7T 4-banger to be interesting, specifically the parts about how the coolant is routed to help warmup the engine quicker

particularly this passage:
Always having water in that integrated exhaust manifold, Luchanksy told me, makes sense since the heater core pulls its coolant straight from it, and because the control valve can send the free heat picked up from the exhaust to warm up the engine and transmission. Plus, grabbing heat from the exhaust reduces gas temperatures entering the turbo, which means fuel doesnít have to be dumped into the cylinders to reduce temperatures to increase turbo life.







superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-21-2018 15:57
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
JeffX wrote:
This doesn't directly relate to the L15B but I found some of the details in this Jalopnik article about GM's new 2.7T 4-banger to be interesting, specifically the parts about how the coolant is routed to help warmup the engine quicker

particularly this passage:
Always having water in that integrated exhaust manifold, Luchanksy told me, makes sense since the heater core pulls its coolant straight from it, and because the control valve can send the free heat picked up from the exhaust to warm up the engine and transmission. Plus, grabbing heat from the exhaust reduces gas temperatures entering the turbo, which means fuel doesnít have to be dumped into the cylinders to reduce temperatures to increase turbo life.




Going off topic here, but I just wonder how many full size Chevy truck buyers will opt for this engine?

Design
Profile for Design
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 12:20
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Here's an interesting video on the CRV's shutter system. I wasn't aware Honda used these on the 1.5T. But the owner theorizes they're used to help accelerate warming up of the powertrain following initial startup.

Worth a look, if only to see how they behave:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1fgcNF9OsY

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T (And 2.0 CTR)    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 14:48
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
notyper wrote:
S2000s, which are known to burn some oil, get fuel contamination under heavy load and high rpms. But with a high quality, heavier weight oil, it isn't an issue. I run a high end (Torco SR-5) 5w-50 in my supercharged f20c on e85 and while I can smell ethanol in the fuel (particularly in the catch can), it has never had any issues even at 2.5x the stock output.
SC



I'm looking at this now, and now that I think about it, the F20C must have had unique challenges when it comes to the PCV system. This was in an era where oil separation from blowby wasn't really a thing, and under high load (min vacuum) and high rpm (max blowby), the PCV system probably isn't pulling enough fresh air through the system to purge the crankcase entirely of any contaminants. Did the S2K have a separate vacuum pump?

I'm going to go on a tangent.

Normally I would not recommend using an external catch can, but in older cars they make sense. I don't think engine designs as old as the F20 had anything more than a simple splash shield/baffle to filter out the blowby stream of oil; a far cry from the sophisticated systems used in the K20C (multi-stage filtration down to 0.1 micron both under vacuum and under boost, low pressure drop, continuous reservoir drain).

Problem with catch cans is of course, that you don't want to use them in the winter where they can freeze, causing all your blowby to backflow through the usually uninsulated fresh air tube (making a big mess near the air filter while allowing oil contamination buildup) until it too eventually freezes and the blowby destroys your crank seal.

With OEM systems being much better nowadays as people have started understanding how blowby can cause intake port buildup in DI engines, I can't recommend catch cans except for specific engine designs because of the above risk, and because they've been mostly surpassed by the engine's built-in filtration systems. I'm sure you've seen those forum posts from catch can sellers stating "Look how much oil this collects!!!!11", but they are only showing the collected fluid, which consists of water and fuel (things the OEM systems are not designed to collect as they are meant to be ingested into the intake). It's normal to smell fuel, and in certain cases that's what it mostly consists of. If you boil the fluid so that oil is the only thing that remains, I'm going to bet there isn't going to be much of it.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 14:50
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Yes, they are used for thermal management and aero benefits. More OEMs are using them because you can get EPA fuel economy "off cycle" credits for using them, even if in reality on some vehicles they do nothing.

They can be great though because they actually simplify a lot of things if you account for them in your vehicle design. For example, you no longer need to insulate certain lines under the hood due to cold/icing fears, and you no longer need things like electronic thermostats to control coolant temps.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-28-2018 14:52
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
JeffX wrote:
This doesn't directly relate to the L15B but I found some of the details in this Jalopnik article about GM's new 2.7T 4-banger to be interesting, specifically the parts about how the coolant is routed to help warmup the engine quicker

particularly this passage:
Always having water in that integrated exhaust manifold, Luchanksy told me, makes sense since the heater core pulls its coolant straight from it, and because the control valve can send the free heat picked up from the exhaust to warm up the engine and transmission. Plus, grabbing heat from the exhaust reduces gas temperatures entering the turbo, which means fuel doesnít have to be dumped into the cylinders to reduce temperatures to increase turbo life.




Yes but this needs to be balanced against faster catalytic converter light-off, which is usually located right next to the turbo


 
Thread Page - 1 2 3 [4]
Go to:
Contact TOV | Submit Your Article | Submit Your Link | Advertise | TOV Shop | Events | Our Sponsors | TOV Archives
Copyright © 2018 Velocitech Inc. All information contained herein remains the property of Velocitech Inc.
The Temple of VTEC is not affiliated with American Honda Motor Co., Inc. TOV Policies and Guidelines - Credits - Privacy Policy
29 mobile: 0