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TOV Forums > CR-Z > > Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z

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Fan Koni
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Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-06-2018 10:53
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outersquare wrote:
owequitit wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Yeah, except that everything attached to the electric motors has no balls and the electric motors aren't that strong. So my previous statement stands.

I used to blow Prius' out of the water with my Civic Si, and almost every turbo engine made has WAAAAAY more torque than that off the line, so my statement stands. Prius owners THINK they are accelerating fast because the other cars aren't racing. When it actually becomes a REAL race, they really don't stand a chance.

P.S. That phenomonal Prius torque will get you about 5 feet off the line before one of those turbo engines is fully spooled, so again, if you are beating them, it is because they aren't racing.



Then think again what kind of engines and motors does the competition of it's time (2009) here have, so you'll see the difference:

Prius III: engine 73kW 142Nm & motor 60kW 207Nm = 100kW system
VW Golf 1.4L TSI: 90kW 200Nm
Audi A3 1.4L TFSI: 92kW 200Nm
BMW 118i: 105kW 190Nm
Mercedes A200: 100kW 185Nm
Honda Civic 1.8L FK2: 103kW 174Nm
Mazda 3 2.0 MZR: 110kW 187Nm

Your Civic Si didn't exist here, nor did the european Turbo engines in the compact class made at the time of the Prius launch 2009 do waaaay more torque, so your statement is only valid for the US and when comparing an performance car to an daily commuter (which is comparing apples with pears). Prius owners have a potent car that is neither slow, nor has to hide behind the same class competition of its time.

P.S. Like I've stated, try it in 2018 with the new Honda Insight. 151HP system power and 197lb-ft of torque should be pretty enough to compete with any daily commuter and probably some more.


KaizenDo, what's the most powerful, fastest car you've driven or ridden in as a passenger?

You're right that if all of us in the US would obey all of the traffic laws we could get by with Honda Fits. Ours is fun to drive and keeps up with daily traffic in every situation but the hammer lane. And with traffic the way it is I don't ever get close to the 0-60 time in the Fit.

Motortrend magazine here in the US has a 0-60 time for the 2018 Prius Prime at 10 seconds.



For that I can only say, please come to Germany on a sightseeing tour. I'll show you around and during that, let's take a trip on the Autobahn. That's the best way to see the differences in setup and preference of vehicle behaviour.

I don't know what's your daily routine in the US or what kind of driving is fun for you. For me, me Prius really shines on long distance hauls - like on the A9 from Nuremberg down to Munich, continueing on the A8 to the Austrian border. I'm driving that with speeds bewteen 130-140km/h (80-87mph). Once my car has reached travel velocity it's quite silent and the experience of an comfortable train ride. In this surrounding, i can compete with Diesel cars for fuel efficiency - but that's just on a sidenote.



80-87? Not impressed.

I routinely see those speeds on local IN CITY highways just to keep up with traffic.

At 85MPH average, most cars in the US are luxury cruisers in comparsion. A car like a Civic Touring or Accord Sport isn't even flustered at those speeds, let alone much higher end cars.



Serious, Southern California people do 90 mph on Pacific Coast Highway.

That "Autobahn Topspeed Prius" video is totally useless, it took over a minute (60+ sec) to go from 160 kph (100 mph) to 195 kph (122 mph), assuming that was even flat land.

By American standards, the Prius is among the slowest new car you can buy.

I've heard before though, although the Autobahn is a fabled place, most of the time it's actually pretty pedestrian.



Wow. This is too funny.
So the Autobahn stretch mentioned is one of most fun. At night you can race with r&d bimmers and Audi's being tested there. A pottering Prius would be parked in the road behind to a Dutch caravan.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-11-2018 05:48
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Grace141 wrote:
Nuremberg to Munich looks to be about 100 miles. A drive I know of here in the US of about that distance and similar to the one in the video would be I-35 from Minneapolis to Duluth. It's beautiful country to drive through and traffic moves at 70 to 80 mph speeds. When you get to Duluth, you have a nice lunch in a locally owned restaurant or brewery and then you have a relaxing drive along the north shore of Superior.

Most law enforcement officers in the US will give you 10 over the limit. In light traffic, most drivers stick close to that range. Full-on rush hour traffic turns to gridlock pretty easily. It took us nearly two hours to drive the last quarter-mile to our hotel east of Pasadena a few years ago and we could see the hotel from the Interstate the whole time. It's the semi-heavy traffic in our cities which tends to move up the dial. I drove around Atlanta on our way to Macon one evening several years ago in end of rush hour hammer lane traffic and never dropping below 80. On a good weekday, you can drive straight through Denver in what feels like 20 minutes. Driving through our major cities can feel like a road legal Track Day in America sometimes.

Anyway, my drive which might fit the parameters of your autobahn cruise would be our taking I-90 west from Albert Lea, MN to Rapid City, SD with the cruise in our RDX set to 80mph. That shows as 515 miles with a stop in Sioux Falls for dinner and at the Missouri River overlook to shake off the miles. I've done that drive three times now and it's the reason I drive an Accord and not something like a Civic Si or our Fit for those trips. The MDX is an even better cruiser. Once you reach the plains states the Interstates have 75mph limits which means the state patrols will give you up to 85. Your Prius would feel right at home.

And, yes, I do plan to see Germany. It's where my family is originally from, the area around Hanover. I'm more interested in visiting the Porsche museum in Stuttgart. One of these days.


That's right. We drive this route twice a year or so, going around Munich and then continueing on the A8 towards Salzburg. Along the way you'll pass by some nice locations and views, my favorite one though is the dinzler coffe shop at the Irschenberg, where you not only can have lunch but also take a look at the coffe roasting and production process.



From there along the way to the Austrian border, you'll pass by the Chiemsee lake - great view again, especially as you also can the the Alps on the right side. Unfortunately as driver you have too keep your eyes on the road.

Another great route is southwest of Munich, going down to Füssen where Neuschwanstein castle is located. The bavarian kings truely had a good taste for pickign good locations. If you go on further south across the Austrian border, quite soon you can reach an mountainlake called Plansee which looks amazing and also lots of bikers take the road along that lake.



From there you can reach castle Linderhof, which is another iconic sight build by bavarian kings.

But i'm going off the subject here a little. What I like about the Prius is just what you've described. It's a perfect cruiser and one important fact which rarely gets mentioned is the large amount of interior space you'll get. You buy an C-segment hatcback with the space of an D-segment car and a similar quiet ride, despite the rather minor sound dampening materials used to keep the car light.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-11-2018 07:04
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Before i forget those TOVers who love to go out of the concept of logic and simple common sense, in order to compare a daily driver with a dedicated performance car so they can howl along.

I just compared the Civic Type R with the Mercedes Actros BM963. The Civic does only 320HP and 400Nm of torque against the 625HP and 3000Nm of torque the Actros does.

Oh your beloved Type R is so pissweak, it can only carry 380kg of load and can't even pull a trailer against the Actros mulitple tons towing load. So please feel free to **** yourself with the same bs comparision that you pull off. Nothing more to add on my side here, cause if you don't get it by now, you're beyond help.

Have a nice Sunday

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-11-2018 18:36
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KaizenDo wrote:
Before i forget those TOVers who love to go out of the concept of logic and simple common sense, in order to compare a daily driver with a dedicated performance car so they can howl along.

I just compared the Civic Type R with the Mercedes Actros BM963. The Civic does only 320HP and 400Nm of torque against the 625HP and 3000Nm of torque the Actros does.

Oh your beloved Type R is so pissweak, it can only carry 380kg of load and can't even pull a trailer against the Actros mulitple tons towing load. So please feel free to **** yourself with the same bs comparision that you pull off. Nothing more to add on my side here, cause if you don't get it by now, you're beyond help.

Have a nice Sunday



Very ironic you are the one actually trying to say that.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2018 01:35
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KaizenDo wrote:
Before i forget those TOVers who love to go out of the concept of logic and simple common sense, in order to compare a daily driver with a dedicated performance car so they can howl along.

I just compared the Civic Type R with the Mercedes Actros BM963. The Civic does only 320HP and 400Nm of torque against the 625HP and 3000Nm of torque the Actros does.

Oh your beloved Type R is so pissweak, it can only carry 380kg of load and can't even pull a trailer against the Actros mulitple tons towing load. So please feel free to **** yourself with the same bs comparision that you pull off. Nothing more to add on my side here, cause if you don't get it by now, you're beyond help.

Have a nice Sunday



LOL.

You aren't even in the same zipcode as the actual point, so you may as well just quit and go home.

The Prius is slow. You can try to build it up into something it is not, but I have spent quite a bit of time in them and they aren't that impressive to me. Sorry.

You can spew all of the non-sense you want about CO2 this and acceleration that, but at the end of the day, it has ZERO interest on my car list. But it does make you sound silly when you try to church it up into some sports car.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2018 15:34
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Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 00:01
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KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



LOL. The point is that YOU don't have one.

1) This thread became about what a lost opportunity the CR-Z was. Why? Because it was.

2) LOL at you trying to call ANY Honda fan a "HP guy." Hondas are weaksauce and always have been. Maybe if you are looking from the point of an underpowered Prius they aren't, but for the rest of the world, they are. They drive well, but have never really been overpowered.

3) You are the one that tried to come in here and tell everyone how fast your underpowered Prius was and telling us all how stupid anyone who drove a stick was or how inferior anything other than a hybrid was. In short, you are the one with a chip on your shoulder, not the other way around.

You can freely call the Prius what it is. An unexceptional looking car that puts MPG and carrying capacity above all else. But when you come in here trying to talk about what a performance car it is, sorry, but you are going to get called on it.

4) The CR-Z was a turd, it was a lost opportunity and worst of all, Honda desecrated one of their own historic models to try and pedal a few extra cars and fool the public into thinking that an underpowered hybrid really was the "future" of performance. The only thing that happened was that they didn't sell many and they lost a lot of their core buyers in the process.

outersquare
Profile for outersquare
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 00:52
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KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



I thought you said you had, "nothing more to add"

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 19:11
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owequitit wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



LOL. The point is that YOU don't have one.

1) This thread became about what a lost opportunity the CR-Z was. Why? Because it was.

2) LOL at you trying to call ANY Honda fan a "HP guy." Hondas are weaksauce and always have been. Maybe if you are looking from the point of an underpowered Prius they aren't, but for the rest of the world, they are. They drive well, but have never really been overpowered.

3) You are the one that tried to come in here and tell everyone how fast your underpowered Prius was and telling us all how stupid anyone who drove a stick was or how inferior anything other than a hybrid was. In short, you are the one with a chip on your shoulder, not the other way around.

You can freely call the Prius what it is. An unexceptional looking car that puts MPG and carrying capacity above all else. But when you come in here trying to talk about what a performance car it is, sorry, but you are going to get called on it.

4) The CR-Z was a turd, it was a lost opportunity and worst of all, Honda desecrated one of their own historic models to try and pedal a few extra cars and fool the public into thinking that an underpowered hybrid really was the "future" of performance. The only thing that happened was that they didn't sell many and they lost a lot of their core buyers in the process.



LOL. The point is, I have one but you are making up ones where there aren't.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 19:14
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outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



I thought you said you had, "nothing more to add"



If I have anything to say to you, I'll surely let you know buddy.

outersquare
Profile for outersquare
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 22:15
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KaizenDo wrote:
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



I thought you said you had, "nothing more to add"



If I have anything to say to you, I'll surely let you know buddy.




Oh good because the prius is still a slow sh-tbox.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 22:27
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



I thought you said you had, "nothing more to add"



If I have anything to say to you, I'll surely let you know buddy.




Oh good because the prius is still a slow sh-tbox.



The Prius is just so, Blah.



outersquare
Profile for outersquare
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 22:34
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
superchg2 wrote:
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



I thought you said you had, "nothing more to add"



If I have anything to say to you, I'll surely let you know buddy.




Oh good because the prius is still a slow sh-tbox.



The Prius is just so, Blah.





I had this old dude coworker who drove a prius and every other day he talked about how he was gonna divide up his money when he dies.

Moral of the story, driving a prius makes you want to die.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 23:15
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
outersquare wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



I thought you said you had, "nothing more to add"



If I have anything to say to you, I'll surely let you know buddy.




Oh good because the prius is still a slow sh-tbox.



The Prius is just so, Blah.





I had this old dude coworker who drove a prius and every other day he talked about how he was gonna divide up his money when he dies.

Moral of the story, driving a prius makes you want to die.


I went for a drive with my brother in his Prius out in California and my first thought was what a nice transportation appliance it was, and I guess that's all my brother expects from it.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2018 01:02
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
KaizenDo wrote:
owequitit wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



LOL. The point is that YOU don't have one.

1) This thread became about what a lost opportunity the CR-Z was. Why? Because it was.

2) LOL at you trying to call ANY Honda fan a "HP guy." Hondas are weaksauce and always have been. Maybe if you are looking from the point of an underpowered Prius they aren't, but for the rest of the world, they are. They drive well, but have never really been overpowered.

3) You are the one that tried to come in here and tell everyone how fast your underpowered Prius was and telling us all how stupid anyone who drove a stick was or how inferior anything other than a hybrid was. In short, you are the one with a chip on your shoulder, not the other way around.

You can freely call the Prius what it is. An unexceptional looking car that puts MPG and carrying capacity above all else. But when you come in here trying to talk about what a performance car it is, sorry, but you are going to get called on it.

4) The CR-Z was a turd, it was a lost opportunity and worst of all, Honda desecrated one of their own historic models to try and pedal a few extra cars and fool the public into thinking that an underpowered hybrid really was the "future" of performance. The only thing that happened was that they didn't sell many and they lost a lot of their core buyers in the process.



LOL. The point is, I have one but you are making up ones where there aren't.



No. The one missing the point isn't me. You have no point which is why you can't come up with anything that throwing boogers and saying that you have a point but nobody gets it.

Your Prius is slow, just like the CR-Z. Get over it and accept it. Your life will be much happier.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2018 01:18
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
outersquare wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
outersquare wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Like I said, if you don't get the point by now, you're beyond help. In nowhere of this thread the question came to rise, which car list owe and the HP boys have on their mind. The subject ot the thread was the CR-Z, an vehicle that owe surely didn't have on his list either. Most likely Honda designed the CR-Z for the JDM market with less powerful cars, why it disappointed in the west. Their real mistake was, to use an notably too weak electric motor for it's purpose.

For the Prius on the other side, which was build as general purpose daily driver car, this was not the case and that's why i mention it here. The combination of combustion engine and electric motor proved to be as similar as performing as conventional cars of same power and class. Now you can badmouth all day long and as much as you want, it won't change the former fact.



I thought you said you had, "nothing more to add"



If I have anything to say to you, I'll surely let you know buddy.




Oh good because the prius is still a slow sh-tbox.



The Prius is just so, Blah.





I had this old dude coworker who drove a prius and every other day he talked about how he was gonna divide up his money when he dies.

Moral of the story, driving a prius makes you want to die.



Now that is funny. Especially since the average savings per year vs a modern ICE only car is probably well less than $2k per year.

In fact, assuming $3.00/gallon for 87 octane, if a Civic did an average of 30MPG (my 2009 Si pretty easily matched that on average) and the Prius did 50MPG and both cars drove an above average 15K miles per year, you are looking at the following math:

15,000 miles/30MPG, you are looking at 500 gallons per year. Times $3.00 a gallon and you are looking at $1500 per year for fuel.

Meanwhile, the Prius would look like this:

15,000 miles/50MPG= 300 gallons per year. That gives you a total cost of $900 a year, for a savings of about $600. That would work out to an extra $50 per month in savings.

Over the current average ownership period of about 7 years in the US, you are going to save $4200 driving the Prius over my 2009 Civic Si.

Compared to a current generation, "regular" Civic, which can easily average closer to 40MPG, the math is a lot closer.

15,000/40MPG = 375 gallons. 375 x $3.00 a gallon = $1125 per year.

The Prius would only save about $225 per year or less than $20 a month. Over the same 7 year period, you are saving $1575.

Not only is that NOT a deal breaking amount to drive something other than a Prius, but I would GLADLY pay that much to have a car that is more fun to drive.

* Don't forget that the Prius likely comes with a several thousand dollar premium over the ICE car, so you are likely not even getting your money back vs a modern ICE until you either drive it well longer than 7 years or gas prices go back up substantially. I would guess at something approaching $4+ per gallon, it might be a financially even proposition. That is the downside of pushing MPG up on average. It only increases the payoff horizon for a subsequent incremental increase in MPG.

** None of this considers potentially greater maintenance costs of either vehicle either due to things like direct injection deposits or battery pack replacement.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2018 05:50
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Even with our petrol prices being approximately double yours, it's an argument I've never really understood - even with Diseasels, which are similarly more expensive than petrol engines.

Hence why the ~16 MPG I get on short runs in the Leg End don't confront me...

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2018 14:25
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A lesson that can be learnt on the TOV Forums is, that there will always be some people, regardless what you say and discuss, just only love to come around to smear and troll with passion. It becomes funny when you imagine, or you actually know the peoples face sitting on their PC and type all that stuff. Grown up men in teenage fighting spirits ;)

I'll sum my point up again. The intention Honda had for the CR-Z was to bring a modern form of CRX again, which didn't work out due to the higher weight and minor performance of the electric motor. They could have done it better, which the later third Generation of Fit Hybrid showed.

I've mentioned the Prius to back this up with the notable boost it's electric motor provides. It's not my fault if the only Audis, BMWs and Mercedes you know or have ever seen are in racing leagues. Newsflash - in Germany they also make em as daily drivers and you'll see plenty of them on the streets.

And as far as the Prius, but also several other Hondas from Japan are concerned, I like them the way they are and couldn't be impressed less, by some Kindergarten acts that only show the limited awareness of othe cultures and societies by one individual (to put it politely).

Hope to have some more productive conversations as with Grace141 in the future again. Have a nice evening all.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-15-2018 01:18
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KaizenDo wrote:
A lesson that can be learnt on the TOV Forums is, that there will always be some people, regardless what you say and discuss, just only love to come around to smear and troll with passion. It becomes funny when you imagine, or you actually know the peoples face sitting on their PC and type all that stuff. Grown up men in teenage fighting spirits ;)

I'll sum my point up again. The intention Honda had for the CR-Z was to bring a modern form of CRX again, which didn't work out due to the higher weight and minor performance of the electric motor. They could have done it better, which the later third Generation of Fit Hybrid showed.

I've mentioned the Prius to back this up with the notable boost it's electric motor provides. It's not my fault if the only Audis, BMWs and Mercedes you know or have ever seen are in racing leagues. Newsflash - in Germany they also make em as daily drivers and you'll see plenty of them on the streets.

And as far as the Prius, but also several other Hondas from Japan are concerned, I like them the way they are and couldn't be impressed less, by some Kindergarten acts that only show the limited awareness of othe cultures and societies by one individual (to put it politely).

Hope to have some more productive conversations as with Grace141 in the future again. Have a nice evening all.



If you don't like people who smear and troll, then you should just stop doing it. It really is just that easy.

Posting factual information that doesn't agree with your blindly biased agenda isn't trolling. It is disagreeing. There is a HUGE difference.

But like I said, just stop trolling and it won't be a problem anymore.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-15-2018 06:34
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owequitit wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
A lesson that can be learnt on the TOV Forums is, that there will always be some people, regardless what you say and discuss, just only love to come around to smear and troll with passion. It becomes funny when you imagine, or you actually know the peoples face sitting on their PC and type all that stuff. Grown up men in teenage fighting spirits ;)

I'll sum my point up again. The intention Honda had for the CR-Z was to bring a modern form of CRX again, which didn't work out due to the higher weight and minor performance of the electric motor. They could have done it better, which the later third Generation of Fit Hybrid showed.

I've mentioned the Prius to back this up with the notable boost it's electric motor provides. It's not my fault if the only Audis, BMWs and Mercedes you know or have ever seen are in racing leagues. Newsflash - in Germany they also make em as daily drivers and you'll see plenty of them on the streets.

And as far as the Prius, but also several other Hondas from Japan are concerned, I like them the way they are and couldn't be impressed less, by some Kindergarten acts that only show the limited awareness of othe cultures and societies by one individual (to put it politely).

Hope to have some more productive conversations as with Grace141 in the future again. Have a nice evening all.



If you don't like people who smear and troll, then you should just stop doing it. It really is just that easy.

Posting factual information that doesn't agree with your blindly biased agenda isn't trolling. It is disagreeing. There is a HUGE difference.

But like I said, just stop trolling and it won't be a problem anymore.


Owe, the policies and guidelines for TOV apply to all of us.

https://www.vtec.net/policies

Mikgtir
Profile for Mikgtir
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-15-2018 09:17
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First of all, being myself controversial from time to time, I do not want to make a statement or take position of any sorts.

But in EU at the time, freedom of speech and other liberties are being castrated/look you cannot speak/give your opinion any more like it was 10 or 15 years ago.

This is pre WWII feeling again (like the 30's in German EU).

Tensions and nervosity are high, also it is quite frustrating as many are hiding behind user names to say crap online, but at the same time newspapers and what not do 'ot allow for freedom of Speech. I dare you to make a comment on ethnicity, even a positive one, or try to tell a girl she' s pretty in public... And what not..

Out of the mee too, hyper hypocrite cannot speak any more or make jokes, the consequence is big fat massive frustration of many Europeans and their media/news fake news brainwashing (no politics here, but I do agree with US president on one important thing, biaisés media and the fake news).

So, yes, there is likely a lot of frustration/tension and what not to be read/felt/heard from your to date European friends. This could change as US newspapers will be biaisés into going again St Europe regarding business, toll prices and also the fact that France and Germany want to create asap a EU army, not of the taste of the US as you can imagine.. (Do what we tell you, not what we do United States, one army, why not EU...? Guess why not ;))

So here in EU things are not the best in terms of immigration, brainwashed news and so on.

You need to forgive us for a while, this should relax one day or another, but since this is not happening soon... Hope the US people will be clever enough not to treat Europeans as you have treated Irak and other countries, due to the fake news and brainwashing of the media (+ lies about "mass destruction capabilities!!).

Appart from France and the UK, the only nuclear heads present in Europe are US ones. Remember we are your friends (at least 80% of EU), because the US press and news will soon forget about it...

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-15-2018 10:36
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lol...Between this thread and the thread where we were discussing MT's, the picture is certainly coming into focus. Basically, 'MT's suck, the people who drive them are all duche bags...and the Prius is God's gift to humanity'. Think that about covers it.😏
outersquare
Profile for outersquare
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-15-2018 12:58
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rev2damoon wrote:
lol...Between this thread and the thread where we were discussing MT's, the picture is certainly coming into focus. Basically, 'MT's suck, the people who drive them are all duche bags...and the Prius is God's gift to humanity'. Think that about covers it.😏


lol link pls

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-15-2018 13:57
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outersquare wrote:
rev2damoon wrote:
lol...Between this thread and the thread where we were discussing MT's, the picture is certainly coming into focus. Basically, 'MT's suck, the people who drive them are all duche bags...and the Prius is God's gift to humanity'. Think that about covers it.😏


lol link pls


Certainly. Behold...
https://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1367648&page_number=3&

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2018 00:44
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Mikgtir wrote:
First of all, being myself controversial from time to time, I do not want to make a statement or take position of any sorts.

But in EU at the time, freedom of speech and other liberties are being castrated/look you cannot speak/give your opinion any more like it was 10 or 15 years ago.

This is pre WWII feeling again (like the 30's in German EU).

Tensions and nervosity are high, also it is quite frustrating as many are hiding behind user names to say crap online, but at the same time newspapers and what not do 'ot allow for freedom of Speech. I dare you to make a comment on ethnicity, even a positive one, or try to tell a girl she' s pretty in public... And what not..

Out of the mee too, hyper hypocrite cannot speak any more or make jokes, the consequence is big fat massive frustration of many Europeans and their media/news fake news brainwashing (no politics here, but I do agree with US president on one important thing, biaisés media and the fake news).

So, yes, there is likely a lot of frustration/tension and what not to be read/felt/heard from your to date European friends. This could change as US newspapers will be biaisés into going again St Europe regarding business, toll prices and also the fact that France and Germany want to create asap a EU army, not of the taste of the US as you can imagine.. (Do what we tell you, not what we do United States, one army, why not EU...? Guess why not ;))

So here in EU things are not the best in terms of immigration, brainwashed news and so on.

You need to forgive us for a while, this should relax one day or another, but since this is not happening soon... Hope the US people will be clever enough not to treat Europeans as you have treated Irak and other countries, due to the fake news and brainwashing of the media (+ lies about "mass destruction capabilities!!).

Appart from France and the UK, the only nuclear heads present in Europe are US ones. Remember we are your friends (at least 80% of EU), because the US press and news will soon forget about it...



There is no censorship occuring here.

His positions on hybrids are well known, as are his positions on the Prius, GDI petrol engines and small displacement boosted engines.

None of it changes the market perception of the CR-Z, the relative performance of the CR-Z or the fact that by and large, enthusiasts walked away from the CR-Z, as did most consumers in most places.

It was not a high moment in Honda's history and it never will be.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-18-2018 06:20
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Likewise your positions are known.

And still against your belief, neither my nor your comment can change a market perception. The mistake Honda made was the underpowered IMA system which I've demonstrated with the 3rd Gen Fit Hybrid.

CR-Z: 1.5L LEA 89kW + MF6 15kW, curb weight: 1245kg Acceleration 0-100km/h : 9.0 sec

Fit 3 Hybrid: 1.5L LEB 81kW + HF1 22kW, curb weight: 1080kg
Acceleration 0-100km/h : 7.9 sec

I fully agree with your last sentence.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-18-2018 12:05
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Back to the topic, I spent a little time looking at the numbers between the 2016 CRZ manual-shift and the 1991 CRX Si. I think Jeff's comments here about the CRZ dropping back to HF mode when the battery goes flat are important - the car certainly has its limitations. But I really wonder if anyone who has complained about the CRZ would even consider buying and driving an unmodified CRX and then be satisified with the experience. So much of the negativity about the CRZ fails the "all else being equal" test and the lack of reasonably stock CRX Si's from back in the day is very telling. Were the CRX fans of today truly satisfied with the stock HP and TQ of the 2G CRX Si of 1988? The good news is a lot of those CRX's were turned into track cars while the bad news is many were turned into other very different things which just results in the solid support we see for the prices clean, stock CRX's are selling for today. Somewhat oddly, the people commenting and bidding on the old Hondas on Bring-a-Trailer seem to get the significance the old cars represent today.

As a Honda enthusiast, to me it seems Honda took their economy car platform and developed a two-seater sporty hatch with decent tech and handling, gave it a nice shifting manual transmission, and sold it at a reasonable price. The fact that this describes both the CRX and CRZ just points to being careful what you ask for when you want Honda to return to its roots. And I understand the divide in these discussions. There are many older fans here like myself who did or would have bought a CRX new back in the day and then drove it, enjoyed it, and kept it as Honda intended. There are also those who did or would have bought a CRX and then set about modifying it because, by the late '90s, it was such an easy thing to do and the platform was certainly capable of much more power seeing that it was sold in other markets with more powerful drivetrains.

The December issue of Grassroots Motorsports came in the mail this week and the Reader Letters and Classic Cool sections dovetail together as the "Letter of the Month" answered the question of which smaller car pushed to its limits is the most joyful as the '88-'91 Civic and CRX and then the "Cool Classic" selected for the month is the CRX. GM being a magazine focused on converting practical, older cars into competitive racing cars and not about restoring, maintaining, and enjoying older cars in their original, factory states, and the "expert' quoted in the article is a fellow who modified a CRX.

I guess the enthusiast question for me is why the double standard for the CRZ compared to the CRX. If the CRX was identified by one magazine as one of the ten best sporting cars of all time (correctly in my opinion), in its stock format as tested, and yet so few were kept in their factory stock condition due to complaints about power output or whatever, why then do so many people complain about the stock CRZ? Yeah, it sucks that it was just a hybrid but every last guy who swapped a B-series into a CRX should keep his trap shut about the stock drivetrain in the CRZ. A K-swap for a CRZ, done correctly, is probably a $5k task. How many of those old CRX swaps were done to a similarly high standard and not just as shade-tree swaps with salvage yard Integra drivetrains?

So, yeah, from an enthusiast who has read dozens of eBay ads for the old Civics and CRXs which are "completely stock except for all of these modifications", the cars should be compared apples to apples. The truth is the beloved old CRXs weren't fast cars either by any means but they handled well with direct feedback in what is now identified as the old-school Honda manner. The comparison numbers between the old Si and the manual-shift CRZ are a lot closer than people think. Sadly, I think an MX-5 is as close as you can get to the 2G CRX Si in 2018 but even the 155hp ND has a lot more power.

That's just my opinion.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-18-2018 14:12
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Grace141 wrote:
Back to the topic, I spent a little time looking at the numbers between the 2016 CRZ manual-shift and the 1991 CRX Si. I think Jeff's comments here about the CRZ dropping back to HF mode when the battery goes flat are important - the car certainly has its limitations. But I really wonder if anyone who has complained about the CRZ would even consider buying and driving an unmodified CRX and then be satisified with the experience.

......That's just my opinion.



I'll be your huckleberry. First a reminder. I have tested a stock CRZ for a few days. I have also driven Jackson Racings supercharged CRZ for a few days too (and we actually used it while doing the launch event for the 9th gen Accord with Jeff - see https://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=4&article_id=1087352). And I bought a 1991 CRX Si in 1999 when my GS-R was stolen (but it was still too soon to pick up an S2000).

Let's talk first about the CRX Si. Mine had about 90k miles on it when I bought it. Completely stock. Got it from a young married couple. It was the wife's car from before the marriage. It burned about a half quart of oil every 3k miles and the clutch was getting pretty soft. Crappy all-season tires. Paint was still in great shape and no rust on the trouble spot of the metal sunroof.

Contrary to some of the magazine reviews I've read, I never found the shifter on that car to be all that great. I'd just come out of a stock GS-R shifter and the D-series trans felt like a major step back. Later on I replaced all the bushings with new stock items, but it still felt a bit sloppy. Better than the competition at the time, but not a revelation a decade later.

I also was amazed at how slow the steering was. Yes, a manual rack has awesome feel, but 4 turns lock-to-lock is super slow (and later on, it did catch me out at times - that Si is still the only FWD car I've ever spun, and I spun it more than once). Had I kept the car longer I might have swapped in a better rack.

And that was about it for the negatives. In stock form this car was pretty damn sweet. Looked great, rode great, interior was functional and comfortable. Cargo capacity was terrific (could easily carry a keg in back :). Fuel economy was decent. Could easily hit 35 mpg on highway, but 5th gear was a bit short. Amazing high speed cruiser though with that slippery body shape.

From an enthusiast perspective the performance was also quite good. Handling was surprisingly neutral. The tires sucked, but the balance was excellent. And it responded to lift throttle with some very nice rotation. Braking was respectable thanks to the 1991 having 4-wheel discs unlike earlier models (at the price of 150 lbs more weight than the 1988 model - safety upgrades also played a role).

Power wise I was surprised. I put the car on a dynojet as is and it made 103 whp. Yep, 103 whp stock. Adding 2 deg of timing on the distributor (from 16 to 18) brought that up to 108 whp. Coincidentally this car was rated at 108 hp at the flywheel. Yeah, pretty cool. This also explained why I was able to record a 0-60 time in 7.9 seconds. Nothing compared to my stolen GS-R with 195 whp, but quite acceptable for a stock 10 year old car on 87 octane.

Later of course I did modify the car. It started a year later when I was having trouble finding an S2000 at MSRP and I needed to replace clutch/tires/brakes on the CRX if I was going to keep it. I threw some shocks on it (Tein RA) and some Yoko A008 tires and got it aligned by Darrin Nishimura _before_ he opened West End Alignment (he was working for a place called Johnson's back then). Then Oscar Jackson gave me a super deal on a used supercharger kit...…

BTW, you can see some commentary about the coilover upgrade here https://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=205616. It was actually a downgrade in some ways until I could make other changes to get the balance of the car back. But hey, I modify cars, even my wife's SUVs. It's what I do.

So why was this car so much better than the CRZ? Well, as I've pointed out, even stock it had better acceleration than the CRZ. More importantly perhaps is the feel and balance of the car. The CRZ had way more understeer than the the CRX Si did. It also felt massive. The view out of the CRZ is very compromised compared to the CRX. Some of that is modern safety protocols coming into play, but the CRZ dash feels much higher and the seating position more "bathtubby" than the CRX. Steering feel on the CRZ was also inferior, but the power assist was welcome.

Beyond the hybrid quirks and limitations though, my biggest complaint with the CRZ was the rear suspension design. It just didn't work. Whether stock or modified, it just didn't deal wtih bumps well mid-corner. And when you think about the history of Honda suspensions, particularly in more sporting models, that's a mortal sin. Get the car loaded up in a turn and hit a bump (or worse a couple of high-frequency pavement irregularities) and the rear end would shimmy around, sometimes feeling like it skipped across the top of the bumps.

Many people have tried to defend Honda putting a cheap beam axle rear suspension in a FWD car. I've heard things like "the rear is just along for the ride in a FWD car", or that "the rear is so lightly loaded it doesn't need a fancy independent suspension". Yeah, maybe for a commuter that's true. But for any car that is supposed to be fun in a corner, not so. One thing that Honda lost when they started going to strut front ends (or beam rear ends) on their small cars was that special feel of a suspension that could handle anything you threw at it. My 1994 GS-R had that. The 1991 CRX Si had that too (shared some similar parts, I even put ITR rear control arms on the CRX so I could run monoball suspension bushings when I started tracking the car years later). The suspension design/geometry that Honda used on their FWD platforms from about 1988 to 2001 was simply awesome. It's one reason why those cars are still such damned good race cars today. And its why the suspension design and performance of the CRZ was such a let down.

An anecdote about that CRZ suspension. Jeff and I were testing the 9th gen Accord at launch. We had a 6MT sport on some back roads (not too many good ones at the launch location near Santa Barbera) and I had brought up Jackson Racings rotrex CRZ to the event (and we used it as a chase car). Bombing through the best sections of the roads we could find, the CRZ got positively scary at the rear while the Accord waltzed right through.

In the end, I guess the point is that I, inveterate car modifier, was able to live with a nearly 10 year old, worn down, stock CRX-SI for nearly 9 months without touching it, while being impressed with its general performance and abilities. I could never, ever live with a stock CR-Z that long. Furthermore, after modifying that CRX it lived in the same garage with an S2000 and there were many occasions where I would choose to drive the CRX over the S2000 (and I'm not just talking grocery shopping). It was just a damn good car. And one I still regret selling TBH.

SC

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Honda's Biggest Mistake? Why Now Is The Time To Buy The Misunderstood CR-Z    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-18-2018 20:09
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notyper wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
Back to the topic, I spent a little time looking at the numbers between the 2016 CRZ manual-shift and the 1991 CRX Si. I think Jeff's comments here about the CRZ dropping back to HF mode when the battery goes flat are important - the car certainly has its limitations. But I really wonder if anyone who has complained about the CRZ would even consider buying and driving an unmodified CRX and then be satisified with the experience.

......That's just my opinion.



I'll be your huckleberry. First a reminder. I have tested a stock CRZ for a few days. I have also driven Jackson Racings supercharged CRZ for a few days too (and we actually used it while doing the launch event for the 9th gen Accord with Jeff - see https://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=4&article_id=1087352). And I bought a 1991 CRX Si in 1999 when my GS-R was stolen (but it was still too soon to pick up an S2000).

Let's talk first about the CRX Si. Mine had about 90k miles on it when I bought it. Completely stock. Got it from a young married couple. It was the wife's car from before the marriage. It burned about a half quart of oil every 3k miles and the clutch was getting pretty soft. Crappy all-season tires. Paint was still in great shape and no rust on the trouble spot of the metal sunroof.

Contrary to some of the magazine reviews I've read, I never found the shifter on that car to be all that great. I'd just come out of a stock GS-R shifter and the D-series trans felt like a major step back. Later on I replaced all the bushings with new stock items, but it still felt a bit sloppy. Better than the competition at the time, but not a revelation a decade later.

I also was amazed at how slow the steering was. Yes, a manual rack has awesome feel, but 4 turns lock-to-lock is super slow (and later on, it did catch me out at times - that Si is still the only FWD car I've ever spun, and I spun it more than once). Had I kept the car longer I might have swapped in a better rack.

And that was about it for the negatives. In stock form this car was pretty damn sweet. Looked great, rode great, interior was functional and comfortable. Cargo capacity was terrific (could easily carry a keg in back :). Fuel economy was decent. Could easily hit 35 mpg on highway, but 5th gear was a bit short. Amazing high speed cruiser though with that slippery body shape.

From an enthusiast perspective the performance was also quite good. Handling was surprisingly neutral. The tires sucked, but the balance was excellent. And it responded to lift throttle with some very nice rotation. Braking was respectable thanks to the 1991 having 4-wheel discs unlike earlier models (at the price of 150 lbs more weight than the 1988 model - safety upgrades also played a role).

Power wise I was surprised. I put the car on a dynojet as is and it made 103 whp. Yep, 103 whp stock. Adding 2 deg of timing on the distributor (from 16 to 18) brought that up to 108 whp. Coincidentally this car was rated at 108 hp at the flywheel. Yeah, pretty cool. This also explained why I was able to record a 0-60 time in 7.9 seconds. Nothing compared to my stolen GS-R with 195 whp, but quite acceptable for a stock 10 year old car on 87 octane.

Later of course I did modify the car. It started a year later when I was having trouble finding an S2000 at MSRP and I needed to replace clutch/tires/brakes on the CRX if I was going to keep it. I threw some shocks on it (Tein RA) and some Yoko A008 tires and got it aligned by Darrin Nishimura _before_ he opened West End Alignment (he was working for a place called Johnson's back then). Then Oscar Jackson gave me a super deal on a used supercharger kit...…

BTW, you can see some commentary about the coilover upgrade here https://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=205616. It was actually a downgrade in some ways until I could make other changes to get the balance of the car back. But hey, I modify cars, even my wife's SUVs. It's what I do.

So why was this car so much better than the CRZ? Well, as I've pointed out, even stock it had better acceleration than the CRZ. More importantly perhaps is the feel and balance of the car. The CRZ had way more understeer than the the CRX Si did. It also felt massive. The view out of the CRZ is very compromised compared to the CRX. Some of that is modern safety protocols coming into play, but the CRZ dash feels much higher and the seating position more "bathtubby" than the CRX. Steering feel on the CRZ was also inferior, but the power assist was welcome.

Beyond the hybrid quirks and limitations though, my biggest complaint with the CRZ was the rear suspension design. It just didn't work. Whether stock or modified, it just didn't deal wtih bumps well mid-corner. And when you think about the history of Honda suspensions, particularly in more sporting models, that's a mortal sin. Get the car loaded up in a turn and hit a bump (or worse a couple of high-frequency pavement irregularities) and the rear end would shimmy around, sometimes feeling like it skipped across the top of the bumps.

Many people have tried to defend Honda putting a cheap beam axle rear suspension in a FWD car. I've heard things like "the rear is just along for the ride in a FWD car", or that "the rear is so lightly loaded it doesn't need a fancy independent suspension". Yeah, maybe for a commuter that's true. But for any car that is supposed to be fun in a corner, not so. One thing that Honda lost when they started going to strut front ends (or beam rear ends) on their small cars was that special feel of a suspension that could handle anything you threw at it. My 1994 GS-R had that. The 1991 CRX Si had that too (shared some similar parts, I even put ITR rear control arms on the CRX so I could run monoball suspension bushings when I started tracking the car years later). The suspension design/geometry that Honda used on their FWD platforms from about 1988 to 2001 was simply awesome. It's one reason why those cars are still such damned good race cars today. And its why the suspension design and performance of the CRZ was such a let down.

An anecdote about that CRZ suspension. Jeff and I were testing the 9th gen Accord at launch. We had a 6MT sport on some back roads (not too many good ones at the launch location near Santa Barbera) and I had brought up Jackson Racings rotrex CRZ to the event (and we used it as a chase car). Bombing through the best sections of the roads we could find, the CRZ got positively scary at the rear while the Accord waltzed right through.

In the end, I guess the point is that I, inveterate car modifier, was able to live with a nearly 10 year old, worn down, stock CRX-SI for nearly 9 months without touching it, while being impressed with its general performance and abilities. I could never, ever live with a stock CR-Z that long. Furthermore, after modifying that CRX it lived in the same garage with an S2000 and there were many occasions where I would choose to drive the CRX over the S2000 (and I'm not just talking grocery shopping). It was just a damn good car. And one I still regret selling TBH.

SC


Yeah, I could live with the Fit-platform in general and even the hybrid drivetrain the CRZ ended up getting but I just don't get what they were thinking with the rear suspension. It would have been so easy to have based the CRZ on a downsized Civic platform keepng the rear suspension approach intact. I know I can improve our 2G Fit's handling but I also know it will never be the supple riding car our Integras were or the CRX I drove before buying our first Integra. And I drove an '11 CRZ on regular streets and a stretch of our local Interstate thinking it was decent, better than our Fit. In hindsight though, the rear suspension was the biggest letdown in my opinion.


 
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