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TOV Forums > CR-V > > Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T

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JeffX
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Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-07-2018 17:12
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Gfn8r wrote:
Honda has always cut any heat output to the cabin until warmup is underway on auto-climate models (except in fully-manual overrride or in Defrost), of which I believe the CR-V is so-equipped across the range. Per every Honda O/M Iíve seen, on all automatic/CVT-equipped cars, upshifts are delayed in order to run the engine at higher RPMs to facilitate a faster warmup.

I wonder if someone simply messed-up the programming somewhere, and it wasnít caught during testing?

Certainly does cause a little consternation, since these damned turbo motors are just adding needless complexity for any real-world gain.

But I repeat myself...!



Unless Honda has drastically changed their rigorous testing processes (or have been misrepresenting the thoroughness of their R&D testing in the past), I don't think this could have been something that simply "slipped through the cracks" during testing. I would be very concerned if it was in fact something that failed to be caught during their typical testing routines.

Now, I suppose it's possible that a last minute calibration change (EPA) or engineering change went through that was assumed to have been "safe" after some cursory testing, but that's still uncharacteristic of how we know Honda to operate.

Or it could simply be a bad batch of parts. It's difficult to really know. It seems like the fix should be relatively easy if the problem is related to the engine running too cold and too rich, but at this point we'll have to wait and see.


Regarding your final comment, for the most part I agree that many past turbocharged engines have largely failed to deliver on their promises of combining fuel economy with performance (with many of them in fact falling well short on both counts). But the L15B series is legit. This engine is simply incredible in the way it delivers fantastic fuel economy with "on demand" performance. Hopefully the oil contamination thing is a minor glitch in the programming because this is a superb mainstream engine.

Even the K20C1 in my Civic Type R is pretty impressive. It's no fuel sipper (compared to the L15B) but it makes 50% more power than the K20Z3 did in my Civic Si and about 100% more torque, yet I am able to consistently achieve better overall fuel economy (city and highway) than I ever could manage in the Si.



Last edited by JeffX on 11-07-2018 17:53
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2018 00:02
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JeffX wrote:
Gfn8r wrote:
Honda has always cut any heat output to the cabin until warmup is underway on auto-climate models (except in fully-manual overrride or in Defrost), of which I believe the CR-V is so-equipped across the range. Per every Honda O/M Iíve seen, on all automatic/CVT-equipped cars, upshifts are delayed in order to run the engine at higher RPMs to facilitate a faster warmup.

I wonder if someone simply messed-up the programming somewhere, and it wasnít caught during testing?

Certainly does cause a little consternation, since these damned turbo motors are just adding needless complexity for any real-world gain.

But I repeat myself...!



Unless Honda has drastically changed their rigorous testing processes (or have been misrepresenting the thoroughness of their R&D testing in the past), I don't think this could have been something that simply "slipped through the cracks" during testing. I would be very concerned if it was in fact something that failed to be caught during their typical testing routines.

Now, I suppose it's possible that a last minute calibration change (EPA) or engineering change went through that was assumed to have been "safe" after some cursory testing, but that's still uncharacteristic of how we know Honda to operate.

Or it could simply be a bad batch of parts. It's difficult to really know. It seems like the fix should be relatively easy if the problem is related to the engine running too cold and too rich, but at this point we'll have to wait and see.


Regarding your final comment, for the most part I agree that many past turbocharged engines have largely failed to deliver on their promises of combining fuel economy with performance (with many of them in fact falling well short on both counts). But the L15B series is legit. This engine is simply incredible in the way it delivers fantastic fuel economy with "on demand" performance. Hopefully the oil contamination thing is a minor glitch in the programming because this is a superb mainstream engine.

Even the K20C1 in my Civic Type R is pretty impressive. It's no fuel sipper (compared to the L15B) but it makes 50% more power than the K20Z3 did in my Civic Si and about 100% more torque, yet I am able to consistently achieve better overall fuel economy (city and highway) than I ever could manage in the Si.


My '06 Si steadfastly maintains about 28 m.p.g. As you mentioned, it is great that your K20C1 has improved economy with all that power. I will soldier on with my Si.


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2018 10:21
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Yeah, unless Honda actually overlooked something (which is possible but unlikely since their documentation process should be way mature at this point), this is either due to some scenario that they haven't encountered before, or it's because of some balance they are trying to strike which caused this miss. Or something is defective. The fact that a similar engine is used in a similar configuration in the civic but doesn't appear to exhibit the same issues is interesting. What else is specific to the CR-V?

What doesn't surprise me is that if it was a miss, that it would be a PCV related issue. I think most engineers still think of it as a black magic and most people ignore it until it becomes a problem. That's also how you got DI valve junk buildup issues.

PoweredbyHondaX
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Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-08-2018 22:41
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some people are saying after driving everyday in summer 45min both ways they still have this issue. crv.

im worried to buy crv now. my 15crv lease is up in 1 year and im thinking all new santa fe 2.0t instead? anyone know anything about the hyundai engine?

PoweredbyHondaX
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Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 09:44
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, unless Honda actually overlooked something (which is possible but unlikely since their documentation process should be way mature at this point), this is either due to some scenario that they haven't encountered before, or it's because of some balance they are trying to strike which caused this miss. Or something is defective. The fact that a similar engine is used in a similar configuration in the civic but doesn't appear to exhibit the same issues is interesting. What else is specific to the CR-V?

What doesn't surprise me is that if it was a miss, that it would be a PCV related issue. I think most engineers still think of it as a black magic and most people ignore it until it becomes a problem. That's also how you got DI valve junk buildup issues.



some civic owners are reporting this as well.

Mikgtir
Profile for Mikgtir
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 09:51
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PoweredbyHondaX wrote:
some people are saying after driving everyday in summer 45min both ways they still have this issue. crv.

im worried to buy crv now. my 15crv lease is up in 1 year and im thinking all new santa fe 2.0t instead? anyone know anything about the hyundai engine?


Wait for the hybrid? 2.0 Atkinson engine, no turbo. Plenty of torque and perfect fuel economy?

Fester
Profile for Fester
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 10:21
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My wife's CRV actually warms up faster than my 1.5T Civic. Usually at or near 1/2 way point on the gauge in 1 1/2 to 2 miles unless brutally cold. I did notice the smell of gas when she would only drive the car several miles a day (Hot/or Cold) but the oil level didn't rise. Now that she drives 20 miles each way I didn't smell gas in the oil like I did previously and this was before the oil was changed.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 12:06
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PoweredbyHondaX wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, unless Honda actually overlooked something (which is possible but unlikely since their documentation process should be way mature at this point), this is either due to some scenario that they haven't encountered before, or it's because of some balance they are trying to strike which caused this miss. Or something is defective. The fact that a similar engine is used in a similar configuration in the civic but doesn't appear to exhibit the same issues is interesting. What else is specific to the CR-V?

What doesn't surprise me is that if it was a miss, that it would be a PCV related issue. I think most engineers still think of it as a black magic and most people ignore it until it becomes a problem. That's also how you got DI valve junk buildup issues.



some civic owners are reporting this as well.



Sure. "Some". I think if you are skeptical, you should just do the safe thing and buy the Santa Fe. No point worrying yourself if you're paranoid enough for anecdotal reports to cause second thoughts.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-09-2018 12:12
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Although now that I think about it, Hyundai did suffer from oil sludging just a few years back, just because they didn't design their PCV system to have sufficient drainback under engine loads. Hopefully they fixed that, I think they redesigned their valve covers after that fiasco.

Gfn8r
Profile for Gfn8r
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-10-2018 16:12
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JeffX wrote:
Gfn8r wrote:
Honda has always cut any heat output to the cabin until warmup is underway on auto-climate models (except in fully-manual overrride or in Defrost), of which I believe the CR-V is so-equipped across the range. Per every Honda O/M Iíve seen, on all automatic/CVT-equipped cars, upshifts are delayed in order to run the engine at higher RPMs to facilitate a faster warmup.

I wonder if someone simply messed-up the programming somewhere, and it wasnít caught during testing?

Certainly does cause a little consternation, since these damned turbo motors are just adding needless complexity for any real-world gain.

But I repeat myself...!



Unless Honda has drastically changed their rigorous testing processes (or have been misrepresenting the thoroughness of their R&D testing in the past), I don't think this could have been something that simply "slipped through the cracks" during testing. I would be very concerned if it was in fact something that failed to be caught during their typical testing routines.

Now, I suppose it's possible that a last minute calibration change (EPA) or engineering change went through that was assumed to have been "safe" after some cursory testing, but that's still uncharacteristic of how we know Honda to operate.

Or it could simply be a bad batch of parts. It's difficult to really know. It seems like the fix should be relatively easy if the problem is related to the engine running too cold and too rich, but at this point we'll have to wait and see.

Regarding your final comment, for the most part I agree that many past turbocharged engines have largely failed to deliver on their promises of combining fuel economy with performance (with many of them in fact falling well short on both counts). But the L15B series is legit. This engine is simply incredible in the way it delivers fantastic fuel economy with "on demand" performance. Hopefully the oil contamination thing is a minor glitch in the programming because this is a superb mainstream engine.

Even the K20C1 in my Civic Type R is pretty impressive. It's no fuel sipper (compared to the L15B) but it makes 50% more power than the K20Z3 did in my Civic Si and about 100% more torque, yet I am able to consistently achieve better overall fuel economy (city and highway) than I ever could manage in the Si.



The L15T is a nice motoróI had an Accord Sport CVT for a couple days this past summer when I had my 2013 at the dealer for a detail. The extra torque gives it a nice feel down low, and has more than enough cajones to beat, much less keep up with, traffic! Better all-around than the K24/CVT combo I tested two days after the 9th-Gens went on sale. (Isnít there VTEC on the Accord L15T, unlike the CR-V and Civic? Have there been these sorts of leak-down issues with Accords? I donít recall seeing anything on here or any other Accord boards.) I also took a CR-V out for a spin in the spring, and found similar improvements: the new motor has nice power in the lower part of the tachometer, unlike the previous-generation CR-V with CVT, in which the engine and the transmission just didnít seem to get along wellóthat combo was more sluggish in traffic versus the pre-MMC powertrain, resulting in the need to give the car a bit more throttle than normal to move out smartly if needed, and until one would adjust to it, youíd end up with the ďrubber-bandĒ effect. The five-speed T/C automatic was a better match!

I talked with one of the salesmen at my dealer last weekend when I happened by after voting early, and he said I could probably take an Accord 2.0T out overnight when they do my oil change and fall detail next month, so I look forward to that, since I will be trading up to a 2019 Touring next spring or summer, and I want to see how that powertrain is (as I posted a link to Hondaís presser on the 2019 Accords in that forumóas was speculated, a Touring, in Hybrid or 2.0T guise, is the only way to get factory NAVI, though EX-Ls are still available with all three engines). From what you folks on the board seem to say, itís got the ability to briefly overwhelm the traction-control almost at will, will stick with the V6 in a drag race up through illegal speeds even in Texas before it runs out of breath (with the V6 the ultimate winner, but the K20T still acquitting itself well), and while not as turbine-smooth as the J35, itís still refined enough, and maybe even a little better in that regard than the same-sized engines in the entry-level luxo makes. (As Iíve said, if itís as smooth as even the first VTEC four in the 5th-Gen Accord EXs, much less the F22 in the 4th-Gens, it will be a less bitter pill to swallow; as it was, the L15T in that Accord I drove in June had no vibration whatsoever transmitted into any part of the cabin while at idle and in gear, A/C or no, and to me, thatís half the battle, as long as the engine doesnít go all agricultural and R18 on you when you cane it!) I think Iíve even read someplace, here or elsewhere, that if my worst fears are realized and the turbocharger would need replacement, parts and labor would actually come in a couple-hundred dollars below the cost of a J35 timing belt/water pump replacement, provided the rest of the engine is still OK. Hopefully the oil-life computer is calibrated properly for the increased demand, and the resulting change intervals will result in a long-lived engine; Blackstone Labs has told me that the OLIs in the Hondas have shown to be pretty accurate, and hopefully that will continue with the turbos. (Obviously, itís critical to NOT let that lapse with these engines!)

As for this leak-down problem, it just seemed like Honda was regressing back into denial, just like what happened when the V6 transmission issues first came to light, is all. My dealerís service manager will go to the mat for his customers all day, any day, and the dealer principal will always back him up in doing so, but some dealers donít work that way, and Iíd hate to see this problem hurt Honda such that people are still talking about it fifteen years from now!

JonH
Profile for JonH
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-12-2018 19:16
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I have friends with a 2017 CRV that they really like. Good power, great mileage, comfortable.

When issues first appeared in China I alerted him to watch his oil level. When issues with US cars appeared I talked to him again. He is located north of Toronto, and lives in a rural area. It is at least a 20 minute highway drive - minimum - to anywhere, and it is just starting to get down to freezing at night , but still nice during the day. The car is always garaged. No problems with heat production or oil dilution last winter.

A couple of weeks ago, with 17,000km on the car and 1,700 after the last oil change, he noticed that the oil level was 5/8" high. He reported this to his dealer and was put on the list for THE FIX.

THE FIX happened today.
On the invoice it states:
C: Product Update
C: Engine Oil Dilution
C: Replace Engine Oil and Climate Control Unit. Update PGM-FI & TCM Software

This took about 1.5 hours.
When he asked the tech if this would solve the problem, he said he got a weak smile.
Doesn't sound like Honda is too sure of the fix.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-13-2018 11:32
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If he measured his oil level after a 20 minute drive (and not in the middle or right before), then yeah, that sounds like a candidate for the repair. What baffles me right now are the people who have apparently been driving for a long time but their cars are not warming up- that to me speaks to a different issue that can lead to excessive oil contamination.

I've also been thinking more about the fact that some people are getting misfire codes, and what I surmise is that the engine is ingesting so much fuel/water vapor through the PCV system when the oil finally does warm up (i.e. it's actually expelling all its contaminants as designed), that it's causing issues. I'm actually hoping that the apparent reports of stalling is caused by the misfiring and not because there is excessive crank windage.

Anyways, there's no way that a technician can tell a customer that it's a true "fix", considering it's a reprogramming done by engineers on the other side of the world and is meant to address an issue that is inconsistent and largely comes from driving habits. And that's putting aside the fact that some technicians don't actually understand how the PCV system works in relation to vehicle cold starts. He can't know if it works, until you come back to yell at him.

As I have mentioned- oil contamination on engine startup due to condensation (similar to you breathing on cold glass) and fuel enrichment cycle is something that every engine experiences. Statistically, the number of people who get the 'rising fuel level effect' is usually limited to a small percentage of the population- but it does happen. Honda clearly did something that pushed that statistical bubble to a greater percentage of the population, so all this "fix" does is push it hopefully back out of range for most consumers. If you are a natural granny driver though, you are always going to be at higher risk of this happening to you than everyone else.


sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-14-2018 03:26
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I don't know if this video has already been posted on here, but how long before this sort of "PR" has an effect on sales??

ABC15 report.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5JzSulIaQY

Design
Profile for Design
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2018 11:56
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CarPhreakD wrote:
If he measured his oil level after a 20 minute drive (and not in the middle or right before), then yeah, that sounds like a candidate for the repair. What baffles me right now are the people who have apparently been driving for a long time but their cars are not warming up- that to me speaks to a different issue that can lead to excessive oil contamination.

I've also been thinking more about the fact that some people are getting misfire codes, and what I surmise is that the engine is ingesting so much fuel/water vapor through the PCV system when the oil finally does warm up (i.e. it's actually expelling all its contaminants as designed), that it's causing issues. I'm actually hoping that the apparent reports of stalling is caused by the misfiring and not because there is excessive crank windage.

Anyways, there's no way that a technician can tell a customer that it's a true "fix", considering it's a reprogramming done by engineers on the other side of the world and is meant to address an issue that is inconsistent and largely comes from driving habits. And that's putting aside the fact that some technicians don't actually understand how the PCV system works in relation to vehicle cold starts. He can't know if it works, until you come back to yell at him.

As I have mentioned- oil contamination on engine startup due to condensation (similar to you breathing on cold glass) and fuel enrichment cycle is something that every engine experiences. Statistically, the number of people who get the 'rising fuel level effect' is usually limited to a small percentage of the population- but it does happen. Honda clearly did something that pushed that statistical bubble to a greater percentage of the population, so all this "fix" does is push it hopefully back out of range for most consumers. If you are a natural granny driver though, you are always going to be at higher risk of this happening to you than everyone else.




Some of these cases have stemmed from a failed/leaking injector, which is coming up a bit more often than Honda would like. I am thinking this would take on the perception of dilution as a secondary symptom.

Our local dealer has tracked four separate cases - all on the 1.5T.

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-16-2018 12:37
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A leaky injector is a plausible root cause. But Honda isn't calling for that on the TSB. If we are seeing injector failures in the field this early, have Honda properly identified the root cause? Did the dealer confirm a fault injector or were they doing just doing a shot gun approach and replacing a bunch of suspect parts?

The communication from Honda could be better. Do we know why this TSB is only applicable to some markets? Aren't Canadian vehicle have the same system as US cars?

On another note, have we found the root cause for the overheating CTR? Was it a bad batch of thermostats like the ones on the NSX causing no-start condition once it overheated?

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-17-2018 02:38
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silverf16 wrote:
A leaky injector is a plausible root cause. But Honda isn't calling for that on the TSB. If we are seeing injector failures in the field this early, have Honda properly identified the root cause? Did the dealer confirm a fault injector or were they doing just doing a shot gun approach and replacing a bunch of suspect parts?

The communication from Honda could be better. Do we know why this TSB is only applicable to some markets? Aren't Canadian vehicle have the same system as US cars?

On another note, have we found the root cause for the overheating CTR? Was it a bad batch of thermostats like the ones on the NSX causing no-start condition once it overheated?



I thought about leaky injectors when the topic first came up. Based on what I have seen in the past, it is one of the more likely causes of finding tons of gas in the oil (especially if temperature cycling isn't an issue). Could possibly explain some of the other issues too, such as misfiring because if the spray pattern isn't good enough the fuel might not be burning as well. I have seen that too.

I have also seen accelerated injector failure on DI engines (Diesels have had this problem for years), as well as shorter lifespans on the HPFPs which are delivering tremendous amounts of pressure.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2018 12:38
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You wouldn't normally see it as a oil contamination issue because a leaky injector should set a misfire code.
superchg2
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Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2018 12:45
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CarPhreakD wrote:
You wouldn't normally see it as a oil contamination issue because a leaky injector should set a misfire code.

And these affected CRV's don't seem to be throwing codes, just rising crankcase level.

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2018 14:08
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JeffX wrote:
Sasker wrote:
Honda's reputation as a reliable brand has taken big hits in the past several years. The trend continues.





I'm curious to hear from other CR-V owners if they're observing this same sort of situation. I have driven a number of 2017-2018 CR-Vs in varying weather conditions and I've not seen any of them warm up as slowly as the one in this video did. I would have definitely noticed if they had.

If the gauge is accurate, and this is common then clearly this has to be the key factor towards this fuel dilution problem.

Out of curiosity I just took 2 of our cars out (Type R and 2016 CR-V) to see how long I'd have to drive for the temp gauge to come up.

I used the OBD-II gauge to monitor the water temps as well. The water temp started moving up almost instantly when I started either car (outside temp is mild - about 60F) but just idling for a minute or so it didn't move up much beyond about 115. Then driving the car I was seeing the needle moving within the first half mile and the temps moved up pretty quickly. It only took about 1 - 1.5 miles @45mph to get the water temp above 160F, at which point the gauge on the dash was showing about 1/3 (Type R) to nearly 3/8 (CR-V) through the range. Within 2-2.5 miles both cars locked in at 172F on the water temp and the gauge had settled into the "normal" warm position (which is probably around 3/8ths). The closest thing I have to the 2017 CRV 1.5T would be our '17 Si (essentially the exact same engine, though I'm guessing that the cooling system requirements are different) and I've never seen it exhibit this "slow to warm" behavior. If anything, it tends to warm up quicker than our K24 CR-V. I wonder what the heck they've done for the CR-Vs to be like this. I'm inclined to believe that this is a software or hardware flaw and the CR-V wasn't engineered to do this.



As a followup to this post, I took the Si for a spin this morning. The weather is much warmer this week than it was last week so it was already 60F outside when I started. But like the CR-V and Type R, I was already at over 160F by 1.5 miles and at "full" temp of 172 shortly after that (I got caught at the same light). So if there are 2017+ CR-Vs out there driving around for 20+ minutes without reaching full operating temp (like the one in this video), then I would say there's definitely something amiss. I have about 1500 miles on the Si's oil and there's not a hint of gas smell.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Oil Contamination in CRV's and Civic's with the 1.5T    (Score: 1, Normal) 11-19-2018 14:13
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CarPhreakD wrote:
You wouldn't normally see it as a oil contamination issue because a leaky injector should set a misfire code.


Depends on the nature and size of the leak. If you've got injectors with a bad seal or something, but it's relatively small, it won't have much of an effect during running conditions (although you might see a large negative long term fuel trim number at idle). But that same injector would continue to drain fuel into the cylinder after shutdown until the rail pressure drops to zero.

This fuel would eventually make its way into the crankcase if allowed to sit for long enough. There would also be a point where you'd get a hard start condition due to the excess fuel still in the chamber, but that would occur over a relatively small window of time (long enough after shutdown to accumulate fuel, but not long enough for it to migrate past the rings).


Given that this problem seems focused on cold weather climates, and a leaky injector should have impact under any temperature conditions, a leaky injector is still unlikely to be a primary cause.

SC


 
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