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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD

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JeffX
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Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 22:20
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KaizenDo wrote:
Here is the whitepaper Jeff mentioned

LINK

Sorry, it's a google link, can't make out the direct address.

Anyways, I remember that in newer i-MMD Hybrids Honda installed paddles on the steering wheel. These paddles are not for shifting through virtual gears, but to shift through the levels of regenerative braking the car uses.

Tony, does your Accord Hybrid have these shifters too? Can you tell us about how they work?




Okay, I'm not Tony but I can tell you how the paddles work.

Yes, they are strictly for regen. The idea is great but the effect is so subtle it's a little bit disappointing. It's like the first click is about 10% more regen, then the next one 15%, then 20% and maybe 25% for the final click, which doesn't really approximate a real "gear down". The difference between each click is barely perceptible. Max regen should be twice as strong as it is, IMO.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 01:54
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JeffX wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Here is the whitepaper Jeff mentioned

LINK

Sorry, it's a google link, can't make out the direct address.

Anyways, I remember that in newer i-MMD Hybrids Honda installed paddles on the steering wheel. These paddles are not for shifting through virtual gears, but to shift through the levels of regenerative braking the car uses.

Tony, does your Accord Hybrid have these shifters too? Can you tell us about how they work?




Okay, I'm not Tony but I can tell you how the paddles work.

Yes, they are strictly for regen. The idea is great but the effect is so subtle it's a little bit disappointing. It's like the first click is about 10% more regen, then the next one 15%, then 20% and maybe 25% for the final click, which doesn't really approximate a real "gear down". The difference between each click is barely perceptible. Max regen should be twice as strong as it is, IMO.




No, neither my iMMD Accords or Clarity FCEV have (had) them. And I have not driven the latest iMMDs with paddles.

The Clarity PHEV does, but I don't remember if the Clarity BEV has them. We test drove both.

The effect is subtle but quite helpful. I figure the effect in the PHEV is more pronounced than in the iMMD.

Jeff is used to the paddles in the TSX wagon which, affecting the transmission, do very well. So, from his point of view, I understand why he wants more regen. But the batteries in the iMMD and FCEV are not so big as in the PHEV and BEV, so, with a more aggressive paddle commanded regen, you'd run the risk of fully charging the batteries and then losing the regen braking mode. A true no-no. So I guess it's a compromise, unlike the PHEV and BEV that can handle more regen for longer times.

I used to love driving the TSXs and the TLX with the paddles. In the later I used to go in the Sport and Sport Manual modes most of the time around town.

In the FCEV you can do something similar by pushing the 'Sport' mode: whenever I drive the FCEV I punch Sport when I want to slow down. It charges the battery, but when I speed up I turn it off.

It's a real hassle because I have to keep my right on the console but it works well. I do wish it had paddles.











KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2018 09:09
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Thanks for the clarification.

I just found an new German commercial to the CR-V Hybrid. Take a look at this



Now I hope it won't stay just with the CR-V in Europe. I hate SUVs and unfortunately the new Insight is a Sedan with an cheap-korean looking dashboard, that i find simply disgusting. I'm looking forward to a car with space age design (as seen on the former Insight, the Freed or Stepwgn Spada).

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 08:51
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That is a very interesting and innovative animation.

Hopefully, it gives even the technically-illiterate a better understanding of how this all fits together.

Almost as entertaining as 'Cog'.

Twiz
Profile for Twiz
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 10:58
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The paddle Regen on my Clarity PHEV is definitely not as aggressive as the Chevy Volt.

Max Regen will only happen if you click down to level 4 on the paddles and gradually apply brakes. Or just slam on the brakes... Otherwise it's a slow cruise to the stoplight. I didn't like it at first but I do now because once you understand the dynamics of the system, you can adapt your driving style to it.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 16:18
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Nick GravesX wrote:
That is a very interesting and innovative animation.

Hopefully, it gives even the technically-illiterate a better understanding of how this all fits together.

Almost as entertaining as 'Cog'.


Vorsprung durch YouTube.

Terencemunro
Profile for Terencemunro
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 14:20
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Yes Danielgr i meant the 1.5l Turbo with CVT. I watched the engineering explained video about CVT and came to the conclusion that making steps in a CVT behavior is nonsense.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 15:12
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It's there because (some) people are sensitive to the elastic band effect that CVTs traditionally had. End of the day it doesn't a huge difference to the car one way or another.
Brutus
Profile for Brutus
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-17-2018 08:05
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Any word when we would see this in the U.S.?

B.

RSX
Profile for RSX
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-17-2018 09:07
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JeffX wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
Here is the whitepaper Jeff mentioned

LINK

Sorry, it's a google link, can't make out the direct address.

Anyways, I remember that in newer i-MMD Hybrids Honda installed paddles on the steering wheel. These paddles are not for shifting through virtual gears, but to shift through the levels of regenerative braking the car uses.

Tony, does your Accord Hybrid have these shifters too? Can you tell us about how they work?




Okay, I'm not Tony but I can tell you how the paddles work.

Yes, they are strictly for regen. The idea is great but the effect is so subtle it's a little bit disappointing. It's like the first click is about 10% more regen, then the next one 15%, then 20% and maybe 25% for the final click, which doesn't really approximate a real "gear down". The difference between each click is barely perceptible. Max regen should be twice as strong as it is, IMO.




I think Honda is worried about liabilities with making the resistance on the wheels too much. I can imagine in the winter if the resistance is too high and the wheels start to slip. In fact, at higher speed (not exactly sure the cutoff point) the system won't allow the third step in regen. It flashes the chevrons on the screen to basically tell you you're going too fast. I don't remember but I don't think it allows you to regen around certain radius turns as well; probably dictated by the amount of 'turn' in the steering wheel at the time.
I'm speaking based on my experience with the 2018 HAH.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-17-2018 10:18
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CarPhreakD wrote:
It's there because (some) people are sensitive to the elastic band effect that CVTs traditionally had. End of the day it doesn't a huge difference to the car one way or another.
You guys (asking you both if only quoting the last message) need to experience Europe to understand where that comes from.
Perhaps it should be enough to consider that even today about a half or more of new cars are sold with manual transmissions over there.

My feeling (in general, I know there are all kind of individuals everywhere) is that:
- In Japan a majority doesn't even notice what kind of automatic transmission they are driving, CVT's are largely preferred because they are smooth and offer better FE (especially on paper). On top of that most cars are low power-torque, for which CVTs excel.
- In the US the luxury buyer tends to dislike CVTs, but otherwise it doesn't bother so much the average guy. Cars however are much larger, powerful, and torquier, so CVT applications are way more limited.
- In Europe, people tend to favor FE (but not as much as the Japs) and drive less powerful cars (but not as much as the Japs). Above all, however, people still like to drive, and are too used to reving up the car and feel the gear changes (most Europeans would take the sportiness of a DCT any day over the smoothness of a good-old AT). CVT's are associated with scooters, which are also extrememly popular but not necessarily fancy when thinking about a car.

So Honda's compromise seems reasonable to me.
- They do not incur the extra-cost of developing a whole new transmission for the 1.5T, just for a tiny little market (Europe).
- They get the FE advantage of the CVT (perhaps lose a little bit because of the tuning, but I'd bet not so much).
- They give EU customers the illusion of a "geared acceleration", even if just enough for them not to feel at the helm of a 50cc scooter.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-17-2018 14:34
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danielgr wrote:
...
- In Europe, people tend to favor FE (but not as much as the Japs) and drive less powerful cars (but not as much as the Japs). Above all, however, people still like to drive, and are too used to reving up the car and feel the gear changes (most Europeans would take the sportiness of a DCT any day over the smoothness of a good-old AT)....



Heads up Daniel, I'm one of the Least Politically Correct people in The World.

BUT, in the USA, that particular abbreviation for "Japanese" carries truly very bad, very insulting, racial connotations. It's sort of like calling someone a N$$gg#r .

So, please, don't use it.



danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 07:59
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TonyEX wrote:
danielgr wrote:
...
- In Europe, people tend to favor FE (but not as much as the Japs) and drive less powerful cars (but not as much as the Japs). Above all, however, people still like to drive, and are too used to reving up the car and feel the gear changes (most Europeans would take the sportiness of a DCT any day over the smoothness of a good-old AT)....



Heads up Daniel, I'm one of the Least Politically Correct people in The World.

BUT, in the USA, that particular abbreviation for "Japanese" carries truly very bad, very insulting, racial connotations. It's sort of like calling someone a N$$gg#r .

So, please, don't use it.



Ha ha, well, I've lived here for about a decade now (Japan now being second only to my home Spain in that respect), paid nearly all of my lifetime taxes here, have a Japanese wife and a Japanese (albite ethnically half) daughter. So I'm afraid I reserve myself the right to call them whatever I feel like; no offense intended.

Then again, I digress, but the world needs to get used to the fact that English is now everyone's language. Found this example the other day being particularly fun in that respect.



A little bit more recent, if still old but going in the same way.
Brexit could create a new ‘language’ – Euro-English

The truth is that has already happened for a long time, and same goes for the rest of the world. At work I speak in English with my French, Malaysian, Chinese, Nepalese, Moroccan colleagues, and none of us speak American English, nor British English, but a mix of every possible kind of English. And we all just get along well enough.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 18:22
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danielgr wrote:

...
Ha ha, well, I've lived here for about a decade now (Japan now being second only to my home Spain in that respect), paid nearly all of my lifetime taxes here, have a Japanese wife and a Japanese (albite ethnically half) daughter. So I'm afraid I reserve myself the right to call them whatever I feel like; no offense intended.
...



Once again, allow me to remind you that TOV is a US based website.

So, when in Rome, do as the Romans.

Like that day when the Italian shopkeeper pointed at the butter and called it "burro"... my mother's first reaction was that because we didn't speak Italian the shopkeeper was calling her a "dummy" and asserted herself with quite a bit of vigor.

Only once the shopkeeper calmed her down, could he explain to her than "mantequilla" is "burro" in Italian.

I think my mom picked up 200 grams of burro and we went home.

Or, "canalla" in Catalan means children, whereas in Castilian is not a nice word. There's another story there.

So, don't assume you understand the culture just because you speak/write the language. You need to respect the culture first and foremost and that goes beyond your own Private Idaho (*)

Peace.

(*) Google that.



sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 22:32
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danielgr wrote:





Wow, being a native English speaker (more UK than USA) but being surrounded by non English dominant people at home growing up, and more recently in the workplace, I never considered how the nuances of my spoken words could be misconstrued! An eye opener for sure, and I'm learning this in my sixties. :(

One never ceases to learn.........

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-20-2018 06:54
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Tis true - that list is very apt! It's why we are apparently so good at diplomacy; we leave the other side totally bemused.

Most of us here know Daniel well enough to understand that it is merely a post-PC abbreviation. But he oughtn't be surprised if he gets snowflaked for it.

In the same vein - I continue to use the word 'niggardly' because it upsets those snowflakes who clearly cannot spell correctly.


danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-20-2018 10:27
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TonyEX wrote:
[...]So, don't assume you understand the culture just because you speak/write the language. You need to respect the culture first and foremost and that goes beyond your own Private Idaho (*)

Peace.

I don't assume, nor pretend, but I just don't care (for good or bad).

Peace Tony.

wooderson79
Profile for wooderson79
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-20-2018 13:43
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TonyEX wrote:
danielgr wrote:

...
Ha ha, well, I've lived here for about a decade now (Japan now being second only to my home Spain in that respect), paid nearly all of my lifetime taxes here, have a Japanese wife and a Japanese (albite ethnically half) daughter. So I'm afraid I reserve myself the right to call them whatever I feel like; no offense intended.
...



Once again, allow me to remind you that TOV is a US based website.

So, when in Rome, do as the Romans.

Like that day when the Italian shopkeeper pointed at the butter and called it "burro"... my mother's first reaction was that because we didn't speak Italian the shopkeeper was calling her a "dummy" and asserted herself with quite a bit of vigor.

Only once the shopkeeper calmed her down, could he explain to her than "mantequilla" is "burro" in Italian.

I think my mom picked up 200 grams of burro and we went home.

Or, "canalla" in Catalan means children, whereas in Castilian is not a nice word. There's another story there.

So, don't assume you understand the culture just because you speak/write the language. You need to respect the culture first and foremost and that goes beyond your own Private Idaho (*)

Peace.

(*) Google that.





Tony I can't even fathom how slippery that soap box is you're trying to stand on...

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-21-2018 18:09
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danielgr wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
It's there because (some) people are sensitive to the elastic band effect that CVTs traditionally had. End of the day it doesn't a huge difference to the car one way or another.
You guys (asking you both if only quoting the last message) need to experience Europe to understand where that comes from.
Perhaps it should be enough to consider that even today about a half or more of new cars are sold with manual transmissions over there.

My feeling (in general, I know there are all kind of individuals everywhere) is that:
- In Japan a majority doesn't even notice what kind of automatic transmission they are driving, CVT's are largely preferred because they are smooth and offer better FE (especially on paper). On top of that most cars are low power-torque, for which CVTs excel.
- In the US the luxury buyer tends to dislike CVTs, but otherwise it doesn't bother so much the average guy. Cars however are much larger, powerful, and torquier, so CVT applications are way more limited.
- In Europe, people tend to favor FE (but not as much as the Japs) and drive less powerful cars (but not as much as the Japs). Above all, however, people still like to drive, and are too used to reving up the car and feel the gear changes (most Europeans would take the sportiness of a DCT any day over the smoothness of a good-old AT). CVT's are associated with scooters, which are also extrememly popular but not necessarily fancy when thinking about a car.

So Honda's compromise seems reasonable to me.
- They do not incur the extra-cost of developing a whole new transmission for the 1.5T, just for a tiny little market (Europe).
- They get the FE advantage of the CVT (perhaps lose a little bit because of the tuning, but I'd bet not so much).
- They give EU customers the illusion of a "geared acceleration", even if just enough for them not to feel at the helm of a 50cc scooter.



Well explained, but you forgot the most important thing about Europe

- In Europe and especially in Germany people are strongly influenced by media
- German OEMs at some point have stopped inventing and developing instead had chosen to rely on corrption, bribery and badmouthing
- This lead to state supported preference for Diesel cars, downsizing engines and hate speech in media against any technology which isn't used by any oft the large OEMs

The Dieselgate scandal is a direct result, just as the inability by many german OEMs to adapt their car to WLTP standards, and Diesel bans several german cities. And yet, despite that these OEMs get the soft treatment by the German government and have not to take back their cheating cars or compensate the customers, there are still thousands of people who are willing to buy an VW Diesel again and believe the BS hatespeech against CVT transmissions - whereas any other car market has lowered the thumb on DCT transmissions (i.e. VW DSG, Ford "Powershit", etc.)

These people suffer under accute Stockholm syndrome and need medical help or lobotomy.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2018 16:40
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wooderson79 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
danielgr wrote:

...
Ha ha, well, I've lived here for about a decade now (Japan now being second only to my home Spain in that respect), paid nearly all of my lifetime taxes here, have a Japanese wife and a Japanese (albite ethnically half) daughter. So I'm afraid I reserve myself the right to call them whatever I feel like; no offense intended.
...



Once again, allow me to remind you that TOV is a US based website.

So, when in Rome, do as the Romans.

Like that day when the Italian shopkeeper pointed at the butter and called it "burro"... my mother's first reaction was that because we didn't speak Italian the shopkeeper was calling her a "dummy" and asserted herself with quite a bit of vigor.

Only once the shopkeeper calmed her down, could he explain to her than "mantequilla" is "burro" in Italian.

I think my mom picked up 200 grams of burro and we went home.

Or, "canalla" in Catalan means children, whereas in Castilian is not a nice word. There's another story there.

So, don't assume you understand the culture just because you speak/write the language. You need to respect the culture first and foremost and that goes beyond your own Private Idaho (*)

Peace.

(*) Google that.





Tony I can't even fathom how slippery that soap box is you're trying to stand on...




20 grit sand paper.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-22-2018 17:27
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danielgr wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
[...]So, don't assume you understand the culture just because you speak/write the language. You need to respect the culture first and foremost and that goes beyond your own Private Idaho (*)

Peace.

I don't assume, nor pretend, but I just don't care (for good or bad).

Peace Tony.



You are posting in a US Based website. That makes it as if you were talking to people in the US.

So, you have to respect the mores and biases that are extant in the US.

Sure, you can pick on the pick up trucks, big SUVs, Hillary Clinton, Maxine Waters, etc... all you want. BUT, RACE is an extremely sensitive thing.

Imagine that, in what, IMHO, is the least racist nation on the planet, we are also the most sensitive and there are many words that we will make a point to avoid.

Some, aka snowflakes, go way out on a limb, but most people long ago decided not to uses certain names. And your abbreviation for Japanese is one of them, so is another for Nipponese.

My strong recommendation is that you do avoid them. Given you don't care, which I'll take you are not attached to those words, I would recommend that you step away and use other euphemisms...

Personally, I find them shocking to see them used. I know that my wife, one of the finest people you'll ever meet, with thick skin (a mannerism, not physical) about many things, is insulted by them.

danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: CR-V Hybrid 4wd iMMD    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-23-2018 08:37
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TonyEX wrote:
danielgr wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
[...]So, don't assume you understand the culture just because you speak/write the language. You need to respect the culture first and foremost and that goes beyond your own Private Idaho (*)

Peace.

I don't assume, nor pretend, but I just don't care (for good or bad).

Peace Tony.



You are posting in a US Based website. That makes it as if you were talking to people in the US.

So, you have to respect the mores and biases that are extant in the US.

Sure, you can pick on the pick up trucks, big SUVs, Hillary Clinton, Maxine Waters, etc... all you want. BUT, RACE is an extremely sensitive thing.

Imagine that, in what, IMHO, is the least racist nation on the planet, we are also the most sensitive and there are many words that we will make a point to avoid.

Some, aka snowflakes, go way out on a limb, but most people long ago decided not to uses certain names. And your abbreviation for Japanese is one of them, so is another for Nipponese.

My strong recommendation is that you do avoid them. Given you don't care, which I'll take you are not attached to those words, I would recommend that you step away and use other euphemisms...

Personally, I find them shocking to see them used. I know that my wife, one of the finest people you'll ever meet, with thick skin (a mannerism, not physical) about many things, is insulted by them.

I understand your point Tony, but we may just come from two too different background:
- As far as I can tell you are an immigrant in the USA (or at the very least son of one), where it is my understanding you've spent most of your life (and most likely married to a US wife, though I don't know the details). You are also way older than I am.
- I have spent about half o my life speaking English, but barely put my feet in the USA for a few weeks (mostly on holidays). I'm also much younger, and for good or bad may have a different feeling of how "the internet" or "a forum" is connected (or not) to the "physical world boundaries".

Mind you, I have also physically lived in several countries, travelled to dozens of them, and I'm not stupid enough not to pay respect to each and everyone's sensibilities. That is, when I pay them a visit.

Summing up, I am in Japan when writing this, and a lot of folks reading what I write in very different countries all over the place (be it in NA, SA, Europe, Asia), so I write the way I feel like, and I have no intention to abide by anyone's particular sensibility (though I'm open to clarify my intent whenever needed). If you open your mind, having me referring to my own family in such a way should, if anything, relax your english language prejudices in general.

Either way, I don't think there is a point on continuing this conversation. I already got your point the first time you made it, and we may be too far away (mentally) for you to get mine.

Let's move on, with all respect.


 
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