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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"

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JeffX
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Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 14:41
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CarPhreakD wrote:
NSXman wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
Seeing as almost everything outside of the block and heads is plastic nowadays, that still constitutes a fair chunk of the engine. Does it count as reliable if you only have the multi-stage oil pump working half the time?

I would like to see what constitutes affordability in this day and age, for a "mid-range sports car". If we assume the baseline price of the S2000 as a midrange affordable sports car from back in the day, the $32K it cost to buy the car in 2001 would translate into $45K in today's dollars. That seems like a reasonable target in light of the Mustang GT PP2's pricing. Still far above the average vehicle transaction price of $34K in this day and age (and that number crept up due to huge inflation in pickup truck pricing).

But I'm expecting the Supra to be more like $50K range, otherwise I don't know how BMW intends to sell any Z4s when Joe-Blo can walk into a Toyota dealership instead, haggle, and then actually be able to buy parts at a reasonable cost when the warranty is up.


Well Toyota themselves said the car will not be cheap, I would guess this car topped out will be easily in the mid 60k range maybe even higher. With the rumored HP numbers, I wouldn't consider that affordable but considering the small niche there are only a handful at that price range. I also have no respect for Toyota in this case as they leveraging their fat pockets to bring back an icon whereas Honda chooses to go alone on sports cars even it if means sadly cancelling products.
I will say personally I do not look at reliability as the only factor or an excuse to stay with Honda products any longer because they are not exempt from reliability issues either. If I'm getting a superior product that puts a smile on my face, I will deal with the issues when the time comes and I will accept that when making the decision to change.



I'm all for the NSX, but Honda did not try to bring a $60k sports car to market in today's high cost to design environment. Frankly I'm not even sure how they brought the S2000 to market 20 years ago with such little room to share costs.

And let's also not forget that Lexus did bring the LC to market, which for the average buyer of means, that GT would be a fairly sweet car for either a DD or a 2nd car that gets fairly high usage. Even the IS-F with any and all of its warts was more performance than Honda has EVER built, save the NSX.

I just don't think going after Toyota on performance and sports cars is a smart move for Honda fans. Over the past 30-40 years, Toyota has nearly always had one performance model in North America at a given time.

Regarding the Supra, Toyota had quite a lot of input into this project as evidenced by the fact Toyota and BMW engineers parted ways years ago and designed their own cars.



Yes, Toyota had "input" on this project but at the end of the day, it's built by BMW out of BMW engineered components. I don't think Toyota even did most of the integration engineering on it.



isn't it actually going to be built by Magna or was that rumor squashed?

Commissioned by Toyota. Engineered by BMW. Built by Magna. Did I get it right?

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 15:17
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silverf16 wrote:
Guys over on SupraMKV forum are discussing outfitting new Supra with the 2JZ-GTE powerplant. May run into some problems getting the electronics to talk to each other and meet emission requirements. Last I checked several years ago, GTE long blocks were still being sold. Yes, that's the one able to withstand 1000Hp.

As for the production vehicle, look for the unveil to occur in Detroit Auto show in January. Not much more to show but look for the straight 6 to pump out close to 384 Hp (from Z4) or slightly less to meet Toyota durability requirements. Speculation is that a manual trans may now be on the table. If there is demand, they can bring it. Yea, it has BMW hardware with Toyota sheet metal, but it is better than nothing. With today's development cost and low sales volume, at least we have a choice compared to no Supra at all.

I still want to see a toned down light weight NSX with the upcoming 3.0L TTV6 with E-supercharger minus the AWD hardware. It can be a lower cost / lower performance alternative at less than $100K and open up to a larger market to keep the production line running.




Lol, good luck with that engine swap. You may as well rewire the entire car. And for what? Either buy it and enjoy as is, or buy an old Supra.

There is no "either/or" with the Manual transmission. I don't understand why that Toyota rep said what he said, but at this point in the vehicle's production timeline, they would have finished development if it existed. And if it exists, then it would be non-nonsensical to keep it from release since that is a considerable amount of engineering resources used. Toyota has already proven that they're not interested in spending huge dollars on this project since it's a BMW with different sheet metal. I'm going to call BS on that until I see something more concrete.


RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 15:41
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Alot news from this weekends SGT race in Japan.


FR NSX!!!!

outersquare
Profile for outersquare
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-16-2018 21:52
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Agreed a 2JZ swap into a new car is just stupid. There are plenty of cheap SC300/400s out there to tear apart.
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-17-2018 02:08
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I think you may be going hyperbolic in the other direction, Owe. Nobody says that Hondas are perfect and trouble-free, but I have to assume you're not suggesting that BMWs are less troublesome than the relatively simple Hondas on the market. I don't think that the assertion can be supported in any way, either anecdotally or by any studies.

I consider multiplexing CAN systems to be a major plus, as far as diagnostics go. True, it's not like 1960's "put in 6 wires and you're good to go" level electrical simplicity, but it's much easier to diagnose and not much more complicated since most sensors are still 2-3 wires and easy to trace with a DMM.

The splitting 8th gen Civic visor thing is definitely a pain in the ass, and the weirdest and most egregious thing about it is that Honda never implemented a fix. I don't know what's up with that since it's such a big issue that they basically made a TSB offering free replacements to everyone. But, it's also a trivial repair, for example you can buy a clip on Fleabay that permanently fixes it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Easy-DIY-Fix-for-Sagging-Drooping-Honda-Civic-Sun-Visor-83230-SNA-A01-Z/173448548935

My 2006 Si is at 260K miles. I am actually on the original cam chain tensioner, wheel bearings, serpentine belt, etc. and the only things I've had to replace are dampers. Actually that's not true- I also went through 2 clutches, and both of them failed because the spring carrier broke and not because the clutch faces wore down (I think this might actually be a design flaw).



No, I am actually not being hyperbolic in the other direction. I never asserted that a BMW would be cheaper than a Honda, nor would I assert such a thing.

However, looking at objective ownership data, the delta between say a TLX V6 SH-AWD and a comparably equipped 330i or 340i is not as much as some here would like you to believe. I also openly acknowledge that as the cars age (say beyond 100K), the delta starts to increase in favor of the Japanese. The data also bears this out.

But I am also open to admitting the reality that statistically, Hondas have a lot more issues than they used to, they cost a LOT more to maintain than they used to and they also do not have the same unquestionable build quality that they used to. It is a counter to the assertions on this site that Honda products are trouble free and everything else is rolling junk. As the world has become globalized, the differences are shrinking.

Our 2017 HR-V is a good example. So far, it has been trouble free. But with only about 10K miles on it, I would certainly be disappointed if it weren't. That said, there are numerous ill fitting exterior trim parts around the windows, the rear wiper arm nut cover has popped loose I don't know how many times and the steering wheel sounds like it is rubbing every time you turn it more than 90*. It also has the first factory non-sealed battery I think I have ever seen on a Honda product since at least the late 90's. Not a huge deal, but you have to keep an eye on the levels in it. None of that would have been found in an "old" 1990's Honda (which is where some of these guys are still living on here), and certainly not entire window trim pieces that don't line up. Reliability issue? Probably not. Quality/build issue? Certainly.

My only point was that 100% of our Hondas since about 2000 have had at least some problems and not a single one has been 100% problem free within the first 100K. The old ones weren't always trouble free either, but overall, they were better.

Also, I agree with you on CAN systems, especially as computing power and monitoring has improved. However, it also increases ownership costs substantially because it makes you more dependent on the dealership as the likelihood of a "shade tree" mechanic having that stuff is relatively low. They haven't gone German level yet, but they are slowly headed that way. You can't even get a Helm's manual anymore. You have to subscribe to the service in order to be able access it, which again drives you into the $60-100 an hour dealership.

Based on what I am tracking so far, I am expecting the ownership cost for my 2013 6-6 coupe to be between $4-6K in the first 100K including routine maintenance. In the interest of transparency, that also includes a clutch job, the history of which is 100% unknown to me prior to my ownership.

If you are curious, ask a dealership how much they want to do a valve adjustment on the rear bank of one of these... I about fell over. I CAN do it myself, but in the absence of time, I probably won't. There is the possibility of using an independent shop, but that also applies to ze Germans as well once the warranty is no longer covering routine maintenance.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-17-2018 13:06
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Yeah, the downfall of the J-series is that it's a timing belt rather than chain, and that it's mounted transversely- meaning that replacing spark plugs would require approximately 5 swivel sockets end to end to reach the back cylinder (same with valve adjustments). Honda tried to emulate the "engine under windshield" effect for the 8th gen Civic, but at least the cowl is removable.
silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-17-2018 13:26
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Manual trans sometimes does come after production launch. 991.1 GT3 manuals came in the form of 911R and then 991.2 also had manual but was offered 6 months after 991.2 introduction.

IS300 went on sale in North America in 2001 with an Automatic. One year later, manuals trans came out. It's all about getting the high volume configurations out to market first. And then offer derivatives such as a manual trans later because it required additional development. Or in this case, mostly powertrain integration because BMW already has a 6 speed manual.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-18-2018 01:44
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Yeah, the downfall of the J-series is that it's a timing belt rather than chain, and that it's mounted transversely- meaning that replacing spark plugs would require approximately 5 swivel sockets end to end to reach the back cylinder (same with valve adjustments). Honda tried to emulate the "engine under windshield" effect for the 8th gen Civic, but at least the cowl is removable.


I never really thought much about it to tell you the truth. Especially compared to cars like the Si, it seemed like there was plenty of room back there. Then after I got the quote, I actually took a look... Not for the faint of heart. At least with the Civic, in addition to the cowl, there wasn't much you would be doing back there as far as maintenance goes. But the J series is another matter. And yes, timing belt, water pump, tensioner, etc all add quite a bit of additional cost. Then, since those are usually coming out somewhere between 90K and 105K, may as well do the front main seal, cam seals, etc. while you are in there.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-18-2018 04:50
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I've not thought it through, but would releasing the rear engine mount & jacking the engine help a bit?

Some use a similar technique to change the plugs on an 86. Others insist that with the correct sockets and a bit of practice, it's possible to do it engine in situ.

Chris_6MT
Profile for Chris_6MT
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-18-2018 08:22
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Iíve replaced spark plugs in many different Jís from J30A1 to J37A4 and never had an issue getting the rears out. TBH I donít bother to adjust the rear valves unless theyíre really out, but the plugs are easy.

Timing belt is a pretty easy job on most later Jís. The J35A7 in the Ody is probably the worst due to the amount of components you have to remove or get out of the way. But once youíve done one, youíve done them all.

Chris_6MT
Profile for Chris_6MT
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-18-2018 08:25
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Regarding the rear engine mount, some applications have been nigh impossible for the layman to remove and reinstall the rear mount. The 4g TL is brutal. Thatís the only job Iíve ever given up on and had the dealer do.
JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 00:41
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Chris_6MT wrote:
Iíve replaced spark plugs in many different Jís from J30A1 to J37A4 and never had an issue getting the rears out. TBH I donít bother to adjust the rear valves unless theyíre really out, but the plugs are easy.

Timing belt is a pretty easy job on most later Jís. The J35A7 in the Ody is probably the worst due to the amount of components you have to remove or get out of the way. But once youíve done one, youíve done them all.



I did the plugs on our '06 Ody. It was much easier than I had anticipated. In fact it was even easier than changing the plugs in my friend's G37.

outersquare
Profile for outersquare
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 02:48
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Thanks for mentioning that, there are lots of inexpensive G37/Q50/Q60s on used markets but I keep my cars a long time and I am not equipped for difficult maintenance.

Chris_6MT
Profile for Chris_6MT
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 12:48
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JeffX wrote:
Chris_6MT wrote:
Iíve replaced spark plugs in many different Jís from J30A1 to J37A4 and never had an issue getting the rears out. TBH I donít bother to adjust the rear valves unless theyíre really out, but the plugs are easy.

Timing belt is a pretty easy job on most later Jís. The J35A7 in the Ody is probably the worst due to the amount of components you have to remove or get out of the way. But once youíve done one, youíve done them all.



I did the plugs on our '06 Ody. It was much easier than I had anticipated. In fact it was even easier than changing the plugs in my friend's G37.



We have an 05 Touring with 220k. Love it. Did you ever have to remove the rear valve cover? Legit most painful (literally) job Iíve ever done. I was replacing one spark plug tube gasket and valve cover gasket. Simple timing belt/water pump/spark plug job turned into a 3 day saga with all the little leaks and broken mounts I found along the way.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 14:04
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Chris_6MT wrote:
JeffX wrote:
Chris_6MT wrote:
Iíve replaced spark plugs in many different Jís from J30A1 to J37A4 and never had an issue getting the rears out. TBH I donít bother to adjust the rear valves unless theyíre really out, but the plugs are easy.

Timing belt is a pretty easy job on most later Jís. The J35A7 in the Ody is probably the worst due to the amount of components you have to remove or get out of the way. But once youíve done one, youíve done them all.



I did the plugs on our '06 Ody. It was much easier than I had anticipated. In fact it was even easier than changing the plugs in my friend's G37.



We have an 05 Touring with 220k. Love it. Did you ever have to remove the rear valve cover? Legit most painful (literally) job Iíve ever done. I was replacing one spark plug tube gasket and valve cover gasket. Simple timing belt/water pump/spark plug job turned into a 3 day saga with all the little leaks and broken mounts I found along the way.


In contrast, my Uncle had a 55 Chevy with the inline 6. You could literally climb into the engine bay to work on it!

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "2019 Toyota Supra Is a BMW Parts Bin Car"    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-19-2018 15:11
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Still true with V6s today:



 
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