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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...

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KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-07-2018 11:35
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KaizenDo wrote:
KaySee wrote:
We've done a similar dance before regarding manual vs autos so thats how I know about your "passionate dislike" for operating three pedals.

You used this Clarkson article before too. And the analogy is still as stupid now as it was then. It's a terrible piece. I think I could come up with better arguments for driving automatic lol.

Manuals should be cheaper than cvts because they're still cheaper to make on the whole right? Unless that has changed I could be wrong.

I don't understand your last paragraph so I'll just ask you for the third time. Would you like wheels and pedals phased out for computer controls? If so when/how? If not, why?


So if we discussed the same thing before, how come you are asking again, if you're taking things not personally? Couldn't it be that you in return have a passionate dislike for operating 2pedals only?

The analogy of Clarkson is very well suited, it's just you who doesn't want to accept the simple facts behind it. Probably you also took Clarksons statement a bit personally.

Like I said, take a look at Japan. Automatics and Manuals cost the same, in some options even manuals are more expensive. And that's because when automatics are much higher in demand than manuals, even the simpler product can become more expensive through scaling effects.

I won't bother to answer your question, as it was asked to provoke in first place and it seems to me that you don't seem to accept a different opinon. I'm not feeding the mechanism here.



Only reason I replied to you was to get your feelings regarding my question that you just copped out of. I never thought to ask you about the remaining manual controls in an automatic car. Only thing I wanted to provoke was some critical thought on your part, but that was unsuccessful.

No his analogy is not well suited. He is comparing manual to a tedious chore. Which other people have mentioned it is not a chore for them. It is something that truly elevates the experience for certain people. Even in bumper to bumper traffic I would take the pleasure of shifting myself over losing that connection with the car for convenience sake. Clarkson has access to so many amazing cars. It shows how out of touch he is with the average person who may have only one daily car that they are able to enjoy. It is an opinion piece so you can take it as fact if you want. But opinions are not facts.

I think driving autos are boring but I don't hate them. Since you typed below that you enjoy driving your car then you must understand the pleasure of having some manual control over the experience. Some people just enjoy more driving involvement than you do. That doesn't make manuals antiquated or stoneaged. Because if so, you should give up your steering wheel and pedals as well and just get driven around. But I think at some level even you enjoy some control. I hope some rando doesn't call your car controls relics in the future. If they do, you might have some understanding of the push back you're getting here.

Sasker
Profile for Sasker
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-07-2018 12:20
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KaizenDo, I think the problem here is we are discussing feelings and perceptions, which are not shared.

*) For me, and I suspect for many others, manual shifting is not a chore. I don't race, I don't drive aggressively. I just like the sensation of shifting gears manually, specially on daily commutes, where I get to shift more. Maximizing performance or minimizing fuel consumption come after that. I hope you believe me on this one even if that doesn't make sense to you. All these exchanges should tell you how much fun it is to drive manual cars for some people. Others shouldn't deny you the pleasure you get from driving your roomy, efficient hybrid or MPV vehicle. Please give the same courtesy to people who like driving manuals even if you don't get what they are talking about.

*) To turn things around, a lot of people are moving to SUVs, even in Europe. Doesn't mean people who prefer other body types are wrong. They shouldn't say "But since most people buy SUVs (or like to buy them, if they had the money, because they cost more), clearly they are better than hatchbacks or MPVs". The majority wanting something doesn't make them right in any absolute term. Most people don't like to play Lacrosse, but the people who do, enjoy it a lot. In football-loving Europe, it wouldn't make sense to tell a Lacrosse fan that 99.99% of people play soccer, so obviously soccer is a better sport.

*) An overwhelming majority of people don't like to drive. I'd say in excess of 95%. They'd do anything they can to be less involved in driving. Choosing automatics is one such way. That means eventually autonomous vehicles will be here and all of us discussing the joys of driving will be riding along as passengers. So don't enjoy the demise of manual transmissions too much. Your time to lament the loss of control will come too. That is, if you really enjoy the control, which I assume is the case.

*) If all one cares about is roominess, efficiency, and good visibility so one can enjoy the mountain roads in a relaxed manner, then TOV is the wrong place to be. That being said, I am all for the above. My dream car is a manual, AWD hatchback or wagon. However, I am now driving a FWD coupé, which is very far from an AWD hatch. Why? Because it is a manual. That alone makes up for it. I know you'd choose otherwise, and that is very fine.


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-07-2018 12:43
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KaizenDo wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
You've already told us that you drive the appliance-like Toyota Prius. That pretty much says it all.
Here's a cute ad about the Honda Insight compared to other


To make it more funny for you my friend, for my next car I'm looking for an MPV - cause I'm tall, like a roomy interior, great visibility and adaptiveness to various situations. I've seen 3rd Gen Insight, but like I've said I'm disappointed by the plain looking dashboard (looks like a Hyundai/Kia) and no hatchback is a no go for me. I come from beautiful franconia in southern Germany, we have to shop several crates of beer and drinks every week plus a real christmas tree on christmas.

Here's a funny Daihatsu appliance ad - i couldn't find a similar one from Honda unfortunately


Thanks for posting that, Dude!

Very cute ads for the Wake!
It kind of reminds me of the interior efficiency that the Honda Fit brings, but taking it to a much higher level!

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-07-2018 16:44
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KaizenDo wrote:
notyper wrote:

TL;DR - manuals, when mastered offer a lot of _fun_ possibilities that automatics generally don't. They offer more direct control of the driving experience. And the process of mastering them is often half the fun.

SC



While manuals may be prefered from many race track drivers, lets face the most obvious points. More than 90% of the cars being sold are used for daily driving routine and not for race tracks. So all these tweaks to perform some milliseconds better than other cars doesn't play a role in daily driving.

For the daily driving, which is far below max performance, automatic transmissions are simply better due to comfort and efficiency. And this is also why BMW and Audi more and more will go for Autos. In fact, for Autobahn driving at high speeds an 8 or 10speed torque converter AT is also better than an 6speed manual.



Not sure how much more directly I could have laid it out for you, but you still seem to miss the point....

Manuals, for many people (usually enthusiasts) are more fun. They are more involving. They make the driving experience more engaging. This applies at any time.

I commute 5 days a week in a 750 hp, 6MT car. I run very sticky DOT legal race tires (Dunlop RE71R). I also own a 500 hp, 6MT convertible, a 400 hp 7AT SUV (with full manual shifting ability) and a 300 hp 4AT SUV (with only D, D3 and L modes). They all serve a purpose and I rotate between them on a regular basis (well, rebuilding the supercharger on the convertible right now).

The automatics are much easier to drive in traffic, but invariably the manual cars are so much more fun, even on a 10 mile largely surface street commute. Many people ask "what's the point of 750 hp and sticky tires on a commute?". My general reply is either, "If you have to ask it's either (1) not for you or (2) try and it and you'll see"

I use full power every day on that commute, and exceed 1g a couple times along the way in corners. I even structure my commute to make sure I have that opportunity so that, in the event I don't have time to hit a fun road, I still get that adrenaline rush. It's fun man, it's fun. Maybe not for you, but that's ok. It's fun for the rest of us.

Next we can talk about why the 500 hp car is generally more fun than the 750 hp car (hint, it has to do with lighter being better).

SC

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 03:13
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KaizenDo wrote:
owequitit wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
KaySee wrote:
Where do you see me debating what makes an auto enthusiast? Plenty of people on this site and others prefer automatic or DCT cars to manual options. I may disagree with them but I can understand the perspective and know the merits of automated transmissions. All that is a matter of preference.
However, you are the only person I've come across with an active hatred for manuals. All this stuff you typed looks like you are taking things personally somehow. Like the transmission is threatening your sense of self or something I dunno.

That's why I wanted to see when you wanted cars to do away with steering controls and foot pedals. They are just as a "random technology development" as you put it, as manuals are. If that level of control is so revolting and antiquated surely steering our cars with circles should be abolished as soon as possible right? If you don't think we should get ride of steering wheels and pedals then please tell me why. Your perspective is very unique so I'd like to hear that. I may dislike driving automatics but I do not despise them and wish they would disappear. Most enthusiasts I know are relatively tolerant of other people's passions and interests because that's what makes car culture so varied. When you meet the few people who hate a brand or subculture with a real fire it's unfortunate, but also can be intriguing to hear their perspective. For someone to hate manually controlling their transmission so completely, there has to be some interesting viewpoints on the remaining manual controls in a car.


Well i see a lot of debating on the 2 pages of this thread from many TOVers. I don't know exactly where you see "active hatred for MTs" in my posts. I'll tell you the same as Jeremy Clarkson

I would prefer a situation as in Japan, where CVTs and MTs are same priced (as more than 90% buy CVTs anyways). What you do with MT then, i don't give a damn.

And likewise, you'll see that lots of people are taking this issue also personally. It's when you don't agree to the "I'm driving stick - so i'm great" thing, you'll cause that reaction. I assume this was also the reason for you to ask me this detailed question, isn't it?



1) Not a single person here has said that only manual transmission drivers are "enthusiasts."

2) The involvement provided by a manual transmission on my daily drive where I am not maximizing performance is EXACTLY where I want it most. It turns a routine chore into something enjoyable. The way the gears feel when I put the lever into position. The way the throttle and clutch are balanced. The way the car's engine rises and falls with the relationship between the gas pedal and clutch. The way the behavior of the car changes. The way it is ALWAYS right in the part of the power band I want it to be in. Not needing a "sport" mode to give me some level of control. There are a million other reasons, and the harder you drive the car, the more distinct they become.

I'll give you an example. My parents drive a 2013 Accord V6 sedan. I drive a 2013 Accord V6 Coupe MT. My dad is the furthest thing from an "enthusiast" as it is possible to be. He has to call me and ask me when he checks the fluids to be sure he is doing the right one. That sort of "non-enthusiast." That said, he LOVES to drive. He will willingly hop in a car and drive all the way across the country, just because.

When he delivered my Accord from Texas back out to the western US for me (23 hour drive stopping only for gas), he made the comment directly to me as he got out of the car: "MAN, that car is SOO much fun to drive, and so responsive." He said: "I had to get used to the transmission, but once I did, I really love that car." Then he offered to take it off my hands if I didn't want it. Compared to the exact same car for all intents and purposes, he noticed a HUGE difference in driving engagement.

3) You are correct, the owner of a low rider from East LA is, in fact, an enthusiast. Many of those guys also seek additional performance in the way of putting a 502 Chevy or some other monstrously tricked out big block in their car. It's one reason Impalas, Chevelles, Rivieras, Monte Carlos and old Caddys are so popular for the role.

4) You can spin it all you want, but your active disdain for manuals was pretty well summed up in your original post in this thread (not to mention others).

"I'm looking forward to the day that automatic becomes the standard in Europe as well. Manuals - i won't miss this left over piece of antiquity at all. If you're looking for distracted drivers, you'll find plenty of them in Germany too, in stoneage manual cars not getting frigging moving at traffic lights.

The simple point is, car makers have to meet mor stringent fuel economy and emission values. Manuals can't keep up with todays automatics in keeping the engine running at the highest efficiency."


As though all MT drivers are wonks ( you should see the plethora of idiots driving Priuses where I am from) and as if only maximum fuel efficiency matters (in which case you wouldn't drive a car at all).



1) OK, not a single person has said that only MT drivers are enthusiasts. But if you read between the lines of the various replies i got here, you get a pretty clear mindset of thinking.

2) Thats perfectly fine and nice for you and I'm glad you enjoy the ride. I enjoy driving my car as well, due to the possibilities the hybridization offers - you can drive pretty quiet, you can accelerate from the spot pretty fast due insta-torque, you can achieve a diesel like consumption and it's roomy.

3) Thanks. As I tried to express, for me the word enthusisast means an personal effort and involvement with the car which goes beyond seeing it just as an object to use

4) Yep, that's my own opinon about manuals. Other members express their disdain about automatics or hybrids. I don't see a big deal on this matter expressing a different opinion than others would do

5) Aye, I hear you. The problems with hypermiling snails in the US seems pretty bad, and I've explained why these people are "accelerating" in that manner. I dunno if there are similar road laws in the US as they are in Germany, that forbid to hinder other traffic participants by low speed driving.



On points 2) and 3):

2) YOU were the one that came in here proselytizing about the death of the manual. Not a single person here has attacked your preference for hybrid, CVT appliances. Consider that the next time you make such a statement.

3) I do very much enjoy it. Apparently my dad, who hasn't owned a manual since 1988 remembered that he enjoyed it as well...

So maybe if more people experience it, more people will realize they enjoy it, which is why more people are getting interested in older MT cars...

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 10:38
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The obvious strawman here is that you think "race track drivers" like MTs. Nobody here has said that, in fact most would tell you that they would buy an automatic first and foremost if they wanted every last bit of performance (ala Porsche RS series vs. GT3 series vehicles); MT enthusiasts enjoy them because of driving involvement and control, things that you would be more likely to do for daily driving.

If your angst when it comes to manual transmission enthusiasts is the potential smug and holier-than-thou attitude, I can understand your viewpoint. It is very annoying to me when people bring up their ability to drive stick as a be-all-end-all "Everything I say, goes" viewpoint, especially since I'm highly suspicious that they're actually any good. Ironically, it was similar to how the "Prius-smug" trope was created (though that mantle has been passed onto Tesla drivers).

But, this doesn't reflect on all 'enthusiasts' (incoming #notallenthusiasts). Believe it or not, I think most here on TOV understand that there is a time and place for MTs, we have certain standards for the 'goodness' of MTs, and we understand the inherent flaws and disadvantages of MTs. I think we all just want the continued existence and choice of this type of transmission in sportier vehicles.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 13:18
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OK guys, let me sum it up, and i hope I've catched most of the points in here.

Independent from the news, your point is that MTs are more engaging for the driver's and that everyone has their own perspective on what they are doing in daily commute to make it more fun, plus nobody slammed ATs in this thread.

My point was that I dislike MTs for i see them as needless chores and outdated in a time when engine management can be better controlled by machine than by men. Aditionally I have to thank CarPrheakD as he guessed what i wanted to express by talking about "enthusiasts" - high 5 to you mate.

Finally I've checked sales numbes for BMW 3 series and Audi A4 series.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/bmw-3-series/
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series/
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/audi/audi-a4/
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/audi/audi-a4/

As you can see, sales numbers in Europe are notably higher than in the US.

Now you have to look at the proclaimed CO2 emission targets for 2020/2021. The US taget is 121g CO2/km, the chinese target is 117g, the japanese target is 105g and the EU target is 95g.
https://www.vda.de/de/themen/umwelt-und-klima/diesel/grenzwerte.html

These targets mean CO2 alone, and not any pollutants of which the US emission targets are more stringent. Also you have to understand that these targets were lobbied by the european automotive industry with it's mindset on Diesel engines back then. By setting CO2 targets notably lower than in other market, they hoped to push foreign competitors, who doesn't have their Diesel engines developed so far, out of business. But it became an boomerang effect with the Dieselgate scandal showed how dirty this technology really is and now they are in meltdown mode. Every bit that will help for better fuel economy is used.

Finally, please have a look at the BMW 3series product catalogue
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiB-7mRpvfdAhWLs4sKHT8HDyIQFjAAegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmw.de%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fbmw%2FmarketDE%2Fbmw_de%2Fnew-vehicles%2Fpdf%2FBMW_3er_Limousine_Touring_Katalog.pdf.asset.1523950251422.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2nc2I-rgoeuATTQM-78VED

On page 54 you'll find the specs and among them the fuel usage "Verbrauch" and the values in brackets are with 8-speed "Steptronic" automatic tranmission.

Last but not least, don't forget the electronic clutch designs that german suppleirs have been developing for years and now hope to introduce

https://www.automobil-produktion.de/technik-produktion/fahrzeugtechnik/schaeffler-e-clutch-oeffnet-schaltgetriebe-neue-maerkte-104.html
https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/passenger-cars-and-light-commercial-vehicles/powertrain-systems/transmission-technology/electronic-clutch-system/


Best regards
Sebastian

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 13:24
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Different strokes for different folks!
gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 13:28
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CarPhreakD wrote:
The obvious strawman here is that you think "race track drivers" like MTs. Nobody here has said that, in fact most would tell you that they would buy an automatic first and foremost if they wanted every last bit of performance (ala Porsche RS series vs. GT3 series vehicles); MT enthusiasts enjoy them because of driving involvement and control, things that you would be more likely to do for daily driving.

If your angst when it comes to manual transmission enthusiasts is the potential smug and holier-than-thou attitude, I can understand your viewpoint. It is very annoying to me when people bring up their ability to drive stick as a be-all-end-all "Everything I say, goes" viewpoint, especially since I'm highly suspicious that they're actually any good. Ironically, it was similar to how the "Prius-smug" trope was created (though that mantle has been passed onto Tesla drivers).

But, this doesn't reflect on all 'enthusiasts' (incoming #notallenthusiasts). Believe it or not, I think most here on TOV understand that there is a time and place for MTs, we have certain standards for the 'goodness' of MTs, and we understand the inherent flaws and disadvantages of MTs. I think we all just want the continued existence and choice of this type of transmission in sportier vehicles.


Well said. I love the manual in my S2000 and wouldn't want it any other way, I also love the automatic in my BMW and wouldn't want it any other way. You either drive knowing you're getting the best out of the car in an automatic or drive knowing you're getting the best experience as a driver in a manual. The "problem" going forward is that automatics have gotten too good and with all the parameters of a modern drivetrain that can be monitored, controlled, and optimized by software, a high-performance automatic will always be able to get more out of it with one less version of the car for the mfr. to produce.

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 14:11
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KaizenDo wrote:
OK guys, let me sum it up, and i hope I've catched most of the points in here.

Independent from the news, your point is that MTs are more engaging for the driver's and that everyone has their own perspective on what they are doing in daily commute to make it more fun, plus nobody slammed ATs in this thread.

My point was that I dislike MTs for i see them as needless chores and outdated in a time when engine management can be better controlled by machine than by men. Aditionally I have to thank CarPrheakD as he guessed what i wanted to express by talking about "enthusiasts" - high 5 to you mate.

Finally I've checked sales numbes for BMW 3 series and Audi A4 series.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/bmw-3-series/
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series/
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/audi/audi-a4/
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/audi/audi-a4/

As you can see, sales numbers in Europe are notably higher than in the US.

Now you have to look at the proclaimed CO2 emission targets for 2020/2021. The US taget is 121g CO2/km, the chinese target is 117g, the japanese target is 105g and the EU target is 95g.
https://www.vda.de/de/themen/umwelt-und-klima/diesel/grenzwerte.html

These targets mean CO2 alone, and not any pollutants of which the US emission targets are more stringent. Also you have to understand that these targets were lobbied by the european automotive industry with it's mindset on Diesel engines back then. By setting CO2 targets notably lower than in other market, they hoped to push foreign competitors, who doesn't have their Diesel engines developed so far, out of business. But it became an boomerang effect with the Dieselgate scandal showed how dirty this technology really is and now they are in meltdown mode. Every bit that will help for better fuel economy is used.

Finally, please have a look at the BMW 3series product catalogue
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiB-7mRpvfdAhWLs4sKHT8HDyIQFjAAegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmw.de%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fbmw%2FmarketDE%2Fbmw_de%2Fnew-vehicles%2Fpdf%2FBMW_3er_Limousine_Touring_Katalog.pdf.asset.1523950251422.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2nc2I-rgoeuATTQM-78VED

On page 54 you'll find the specs and among them the fuel usage "Verbrauch" and the values in brackets are with 8-speed "Steptronic" automatic tranmission.

Last but not least, don't forget the electronic clutch designs that german suppleirs have been developing for years and now hope to introduce

https://www.automobil-produktion.de/technik-produktion/fahrzeugtechnik/schaeffler-e-clutch-oeffnet-schaltgetriebe-neue-maerkte-104.html
https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/passenger-cars-and-light-commercial-vehicles/powertrain-systems/transmission-technology/electronic-clutch-system/


Best regards
Sebastian




No one here was treating the conversation like manuals are the only choice and all other enthusiasts are wrong. I can understand where such baggage may come from and it is never good for someone on either side of a discussion to present their viewpoint like that. At the same time it is not fair to project whatever issues you may have onto others as it truly hinders any discourse.


It does seem like you are following what people have been saying here now so I commend you on that. After reading your response MTs are seen as a chore and outdated tech that can be better managed by machines. That is why I wants to hear your thoughts on the other car controls.


What if you had a post about enjoying a nice low emission afternoon driving your prius around. And someone mentioned how you were still using a steering wheel and pedals like you were Henry Ford, or how you are controlling your car in a fashion that predates recorded history. Then they said how in these days of super cruise and autopilot automakers focus should be on taking those outdated controls out of cars and let the more efficient machines do it for us. Would you support that opinion or would you want to retain the less efficient control over your car you have right now? Also, if that person is really in to cars I could consider them an enthusiast, but one that i'd disagree with. If you can't answer this that's fine. But depending on your thoughts we may have more common ground then you think.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 14:39
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KaizenDo wrote:
notyper wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:

I find the viewpoint fascinating that only manual transmission equals car enthusiast. That's an idea build up over years by some magazines and media, probably based on the fact that automatic transmissions used to be more expensive - and by saying manual is manly, the customers don't feel bad about that their car is cheaper than those of the other ones.

Cause if you are turning the logic around which you've stated, a lot things in cars are controlled by the car itself - better than man could - and thus a person who rides a bike or even better someone walking on foot would be more manly than someone in an machine which does all things by itself.

By this, you should be able to get my point that the decision where to shift from one gear in another gear is technological absolutely random in automotive development technology and not a cultural seperation point as "manly magazines" want to make it.




I didn't see anyone espouse the viewpoint that only manual = enthusiast. That is either a misread on your part or a strawman for you to set fire to.

That said, many enthusiasts do like manuals because they
(1) increase the level of involvement with their prized car
(2) increase the level of control they have while driving
(3) until recently also offered superior performance in anything but drag racing (and drag racing enthusiasts have almost universally preferred automatics for decades).

As automatics, and particularly good wet clutch double clutch transmissions, have become better, they closed the performance gap and have exceeded manuals in almost any acceleration contest, but manual vehicles still tend to be quicker around a road course (or autox) unless the manufacturer offers _true_ manual control of their DCT (meaning no upshifts unless commanded, downshifts allowed at any time as long as it won't overrev the engine, etc. - AFAIK only Porsche thoroughly embraces this sort of philosophy but there might be others).


In the case of modern torque converter automatics, GM is probably the best case for comparing them to manuals. GM offers 7MTs on the Corvette (and 6MT on the Camaro) vs. a 10AT. The 10AT is faster in a straight line, but the manuals are invariably faster around a road course.

And there are things you can do with a manual that no automatic will let you do, even if the manufacturer wanted it. Playing with the clutch pedal mid-corner or on entry can allow you to induce some very interesting and useful dynamics. Mastering that third pedal and how it affects the way the car drives is challenging, interesting and quite satisfying which is just one more reason why enthusiasts tend to like manuals.


TL;DR - manuals, when mastered offer a lot of _fun_ possibilities that automatics generally don't. They offer more direct control of the driving experience. And the process of mastering them is often half the fun.

SC



While manuals may be prefered from many race track drivers, lets face the most obvious points. More than 90% of the cars being sold are used for daily driving routine and not for race tracks. So all these tweaks to perform some milliseconds better than other cars doesn't play a role in daily driving.

For the daily driving, which is far below max performance, automatic transmissions are simply better due to comfort and efficiency. And this is also why BMW and Audi more and more will go for Autos. In fact, for Autobahn driving at high speeds an 8 or 10speed torque converter AT is also better than an 6speed manual.



So what?

Do you think a driving aficionado really truly cares what is the most comfortable and efficient?

In most human endeavors, the most efficient way is seldom the most fun -or even better- way.

Do you think that audiophiles will dump their vacuum tubes amps and turntables because 99.9999% of the people listen to MP3s via cheap $2 ear buds?

Do you think oneophiles will dump their search for the finest $45.00 Pinot Noir because 99.99999% of the people drink their wine out of a box?

Driving a stick shift is NOT for convenience, it's for FUN!

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 15:54
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lol...Wow. I don't think Shawn could have laid out any clearer the reasons why MT's are so much fun for many enthusiasts. I think KaizenDo gets it actually. It's just struck me though, that he simply does not care about any of that. What's fun to many driving enthusiasts is actually stomach-churning to him, to the point where he wants MT's gone completely. He hates them that much. But why? If the respect is there for all the various methods of controlling the vehicle's transmission, why is there such strong hatred for one of them to the point of wishing for its eradication? I'm a bit fascinated by this seemingly strong disdain. It would be unfortunate if this reaction is being driven by exposure to a few bad apples. Even so, it is never a good idea to begin generalizing. Bad apples can be found amongst any group. I've seen my share of aggressive, moronic Prius drivers believe it or not.

I prefer a good MT any day. I don't currently drive one, but I do keep the transmission in manual mode probably more than 95% of the time, just because...lol. Hey, it's the closest I can get at the moment. Looking at all the transmission types, they all have their uses and virtues. I can't stand the CVT in my wife's car, but I can respect its strengths and why some folks like the CVT. IMO, the MT offers that level of driver to vehicle connection that's simply thrilling. It's less filtered and offers greater driver involvement in how the vehicle is transferring its power to the pavement. The act of balancing the clutch and rowing the gear stick is actually fun to me. I can understand and respect why it wouldn't be the same for someone else, but KaizenDo's tone is hinting that there may be more going on beneath the surface.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 16:56
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notyper wrote:
...

Next we can talk about why the 500 hp car is generally more fun than the 750 hp car (hint, it has to do with lighter being better).

SC




Time to go back to the roots.

Try a Datsun 510 with an SR20

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-datsun-510-23/

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-08-2018 18:04
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KaySee wrote:
No one here was treating the conversation like manuals are the only choice and all other enthusiasts are wrong. I can understand where such baggage may come from and it is never good for someone on either side of a discussion to present their viewpoint like that. At the same time it is not fair to project whatever issues you may have onto others as it truly hinders any discourse.


It does seem like you are following what people have been saying here now so I commend you on that. After reading your response MTs are seen as a chore and outdated tech that can be better managed by machines. That is why I wants to hear your thoughts on the other car controls.


What if you had a post about enjoying a nice low emission afternoon driving your prius around. And someone mentioned how you were still using a steering wheel and pedals like you were Henry Ford, or how you are controlling your car in a fashion that predates recorded history. Then they said how in these days of super cruise and autopilot automakers focus should be on taking those outdated controls out of cars and let the more efficient machines do it for us. Would you support that opinion or would you want to retain the less efficient control over your car you have right now? Also, if that person is really in to cars I could consider them an enthusiast, but one that i'd disagree with. If you can't answer this that's fine. But depending on your thoughts we may have more common ground then you think.


Well, it can be truely said that everyone has it's own opinion on transmissions for individual reasons - that's what to be learned from this thread.

As far to your question, first I would like to answer why i like CVTs. I see and operate them like thrust controls on an aircraft or spacecraft if you will. With the hybrid added, the comparision to an spacecraft is more iminent, as for both vehicles using kinetic energy to save fuel is an important factor.
With this example I can also explain why some Prius drivers in the US are notorious slowpokes and are a magnet for the hate of other drivers.

So what they are doing is only slightly tip the accelerator pedal and thus keep on the left side of the power system indicator, performing so to say an "low energy burn" which here means accelerate only by using the electric motor, which can litteraly take ages before the vehicle has gathered enough speed and it hinders all the drivers in behind. Besides that this behaviours is illegal in Germany, I'm also not into hypermiling and get my lowest consumption only on long range Autobahn drives.

Now to your question about automated driving systems. I'd say it greatly depends on the situation. Situations that are plain boring or dangerous to the driver can improve with such a system (i.e. when you're stuck in a traffic jam and can only roll every 40 seconds a few meters further, or you're for some reason tired as hell and can't keep your eyes open. Otherwise I prefer to drive myself, since i can react more flexible.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 01:05
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KaizenDo wrote:
OK guys, let me sum it up, and i hope I've catched most of the points in here.

Independent from the news, your point is that MTs are more engaging for the driver's and that everyone has their own perspective on what they are doing in daily commute to make it more fun, plus nobody slammed ATs in this thread.

My point was that I dislike MTs for i see them as needless chores and outdated in a time when engine management can be better controlled by machine than by men. Aditionally I have to thank CarPrheakD as he guessed what i wanted to express by talking about "enthusiasts" - high 5 to you mate.

Finally I've checked sales numbes for BMW 3 series and Audi A4 series.

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/bmw-3-series/
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series/
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/audi/audi-a4/
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/audi/audi-a4/

As you can see, sales numbers in Europe are notably higher than in the US.

Now you have to look at the proclaimed CO2 emission targets for 2020/2021. The US taget is 121g CO2/km, the chinese target is 117g, the japanese target is 105g and the EU target is 95g.
https://www.vda.de/de/themen/umwelt-und-klima/diesel/grenzwerte.html

These targets mean CO2 alone, and not any pollutants of which the US emission targets are more stringent. Also you have to understand that these targets were lobbied by the european automotive industry with it's mindset on Diesel engines back then. By setting CO2 targets notably lower than in other market, they hoped to push foreign competitors, who doesn't have their Diesel engines developed so far, out of business. But it became an boomerang effect with the Dieselgate scandal showed how dirty this technology really is and now they are in meltdown mode. Every bit that will help for better fuel economy is used.

Finally, please have a look at the BMW 3series product catalogue
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiB-7mRpvfdAhWLs4sKHT8HDyIQFjAAegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bmw.de%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fbmw%2FmarketDE%2Fbmw_de%2Fnew-vehicles%2Fpdf%2FBMW_3er_Limousine_Touring_Katalog.pdf.asset.1523950251422.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2nc2I-rgoeuATTQM-78VED

On page 54 you'll find the specs and among them the fuel usage "Verbrauch" and the values in brackets are with 8-speed "Steptronic" automatic tranmission.

Last but not least, don't forget the electronic clutch designs that german suppleirs have been developing for years and now hope to introduce

https://www.automobil-produktion.de/technik-produktion/fahrzeugtechnik/schaeffler-e-clutch-oeffnet-schaltgetriebe-neue-maerkte-104.html
https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/passenger-cars-and-light-commercial-vehicles/powertrain-systems/transmission-technology/electronic-clutch-system/


Best regards
Sebastian



You keep running in circles.

We are ALL aware of all of that stuff. We are also all aware of the claims of MPG efficiency. We also ALL know that MPG results can vary greatly in the_real_world.

You also keep missing the point which is FUN.

As has already been asked, why continue to enjoy cars that have manual steering, braking, and acceleration when a computer would optimize those things much more (especially acceleration as it would allow us to eliminate the #1 factor involved in deadly car accidents and would also allow us to run much closer to that theoretical maximum efficiency)? Why continue to advocate such an anachronism of obsolete technology?

Here is another example for you. Go fly an Airbus and a Boeing Stearman (you can look that up). The Airbus will make you sweat less, will go faster and further and is smoother, more quiet and far more automated. The Stearman will leave you with a shit-eating grin on your face, no matter how long you fly it or how worn out you are afterward.



owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 01:14
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KaizenDo wrote:
KaySee wrote:
No one here was treating the conversation like manuals are the only choice and all other enthusiasts are wrong. I can understand where such baggage may come from and it is never good for someone on either side of a discussion to present their viewpoint like that. At the same time it is not fair to project whatever issues you may have onto others as it truly hinders any discourse.


It does seem like you are following what people have been saying here now so I commend you on that. After reading your response MTs are seen as a chore and outdated tech that can be better managed by machines. That is why I wants to hear your thoughts on the other car controls.


What if you had a post about enjoying a nice low emission afternoon driving your prius around. And someone mentioned how you were still using a steering wheel and pedals like you were Henry Ford, or how you are controlling your car in a fashion that predates recorded history. Then they said how in these days of super cruise and autopilot automakers focus should be on taking those outdated controls out of cars and let the more efficient machines do it for us. Would you support that opinion or would you want to retain the less efficient control over your car you have right now? Also, if that person is really in to cars I could consider them an enthusiast, but one that i'd disagree with. If you can't answer this that's fine. But depending on your thoughts we may have more common ground then you think.


Well, it can be truely said that everyone has it's own opinion on transmissions for individual reasons - that's what to be learned from this thread.

As far to your question, first I would like to answer why i like CVTs. I see and operate them like thrust controls on an aircraft or spacecraft if you will. With the hybrid added, the comparision to an spacecraft is more iminent, as for both vehicles using kinetic energy to save fuel is an important factor.
With this example I can also explain why some Prius drivers in the US are notorious slowpokes and are a magnet for the hate of other drivers.

So what they are doing is only slightly tip the accelerator pedal and thus keep on the left side of the power system indicator, performing so to say an "low energy burn" which here means accelerate only by using the electric motor, which can litteraly take ages before the vehicle has gathered enough speed and it hinders all the drivers in behind. Besides that this behaviours is illegal in Germany, I'm also not into hypermiling and get my lowest consumption only on long range Autobahn drives.

Now to your question about automated driving systems. I'd say it greatly depends on the situation. Situations that are plain boring or dangerous to the driver can improve with such a system (i.e. when you're stuck in a traffic jam and can only roll every 40 seconds a few meters further, or you're for some reason tired as hell and can't keep your eyes open. Otherwise I prefer to drive myself, since i can react more flexible.



Airplanes use kinetic (and potential energy to save fuel too). You might be interested to know that 99% of the time you are descending in an airplane, the engines are at idle. Unless there is a need for it come up, the thrust doesn't come back up until you hear the engines spool back up after the gear and flaps come down, and that's only because they have to be spooled in case we need to do a go around, otherwise they would be idle all the way to the ground.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 06:40
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owequitit wrote:
You keep running in circles.

We are ALL aware of all of that stuff. We are also all aware of the claims of MPG efficiency. We also ALL know that MPG results can vary greatly in the_real_world.

You also keep missing the point which is FUN.

As has already been asked, why continue to enjoy cars that have manual steering, braking, and acceleration when a computer would optimize those things much more (especially acceleration as it would allow us to eliminate the #1 factor involved in deadly car accidents and would also allow us to run much closer to that theoretical maximum efficiency)? Why continue to advocate such an anachronism of obsolete technology?

Here is another example for you. Go fly an Airbus and a Boeing Stearman (you can look that up). The Airbus will make you sweat less, will go faster and further and is smoother, more quiet and far more automated. The Stearman will leave you with a shit-eating grin on your face, no matter how long you fly it or how worn out you are afterward.


Nah, take a look again, for I've named your point when i wrote:

"Independent from the news, your point is that MTs are more engaging for the driver's and that everyone has their own perspective on what they are doing in daily commute to make it more fun, plus nobody slammed ATs in this thread."

If you or Tony expect me to write MTs are more fun then sorry, it won't happen, cause i pesonally find they are not fun but a pointless chore - and that is my opinion. That you and others find MTs in your opnion to be more fun, I've already understood. We have just different opinions on this and that should be OK, nothing missed.

Also I've already answered to the question of autonomous cars, when I wrote it strongly depends on the situation. Like when being stuck in heavy traffic - and there is no fun in that at all - or when being tired out and sleepy as hell, then I'd use this function. Whereas when there is a free road and i have time, i prefer to drive myself.

Thanks for your example, though i think that the biplane is also more fun than the airbus, because it's much smaller and much more nimble, thus you feel the g-forces more direct. An Honda S660 could be another example, cause while the car only has 64HP, it's very light and small, thus more nimble and fun to drive than most subcompacts.

rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 08:24
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"If you or Tony expect me to write MTs are more fun then sorry, it won't happen, cause i pesonally find they are not fun but a pointless chore - and that is my opinion."

Hey, to be clear, not a single person in this thread is "expecting" anything of you. We understand you do not care for MT's. There seems to be infinitely more anger coming from your posts than most if not all of the people responding to you in this thread though. My question is, what is the true source of this anger? Surely it cannot be just a few jerky MT drivers who have rubbed you the wrong way. Are MT drivers really THAT bad over there in Germany? Can anybody else on here corroborate this? The only European country I've experienced as an adult is Italy. I can't say that I noticed a problem in the time I spent there really. That being said, you can find jerks among any driver group. I don't necessarily feel the group's transmission choice should be abolished though on account of some rotten apples speckled throughout. Curious indeed ...

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-09-2018 09:20
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KaizenDo wrote:


Well, it can be truely said that everyone has it's own opinion on transmissions for individual reasons - that's what to be learned from this thread.

As far to your question, first I would like to answer why i like CVTs. I see and operate them like thrust controls on an aircraft or spacecraft if you will. With the hybrid added, the comparision to an spacecraft is more iminent, as for both vehicles using kinetic energy to save fuel is an important factor.
With this example I can also explain why some Prius drivers in the US are notorious slowpokes and are a magnet for the hate of other drivers.

So what they are doing is only slightly tip the accelerator pedal and thus keep on the left side of the power system indicator, performing so to say an "low energy burn" which here means accelerate only by using the electric motor, which can litteraly take ages before the vehicle has gathered enough speed and it hinders all the drivers in behind. Besides that this behaviours is illegal in Germany, I'm also not into hypermiling and get my lowest consumption only on long range Autobahn drives.

Now to your question about automated driving systems. I'd say it greatly depends on the situation. Situations that are plain boring or dangerous to the driver can improve with such a system (i.e. when you're stuck in a traffic jam and can only roll every 40 seconds a few meters further, or you're for some reason tired as hell and can't keep your eyes open. Otherwise I prefer to drive myself, since i can react more flexible.


Well there you go. See, we do have common ground don't we? I feel similar sometimes in heavy traffic or really tired from a long day. I wish my car could take over so I could just nap until I got home lol. At the same time, there are often drawbacks to things we enjoy doing. Play sports you risk injury, love new gadgets you spend money, sometimes we have the take the not so good with the good.

I guarantee you there are people out there that think turning a steering wheel and operating pedals are pointless chores as well. They do not enjoy driving and take public transit to get from place to place. I'm not sure how happy you would be if they advocated for taking away your steering wheel and pedals and called them useless stoneage technology for people who are foolish enough not to let computers do the steering and throttle/braking for them.

Even if it is at different levels, we all share a basic enjoyment of controlling a vehicle. Some of us may enjoy having more control and involvement than you do but you also enjoy some measure of control. If you still want to keep driving to the extent that you are you should actually be advocating with us to keep manuals around as long as possible. Because the controls you are using are just as old as a manual trans. and the industry will keep moving toward a driverless future before we know it. I know it will be a long way off, but it's close enough that we should enjoy all the experiences we can right now. While encouraging the enjoyment of driving as a whole in a positive way regardless of preferences.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-10-2018 02:29
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KaizenDo wrote:
owequitit wrote:
You keep running in circles.

We are ALL aware of all of that stuff. We are also all aware of the claims of MPG efficiency. We also ALL know that MPG results can vary greatly in the_real_world.

You also keep missing the point which is FUN.

As has already been asked, why continue to enjoy cars that have manual steering, braking, and acceleration when a computer would optimize those things much more (especially acceleration as it would allow us to eliminate the #1 factor involved in deadly car accidents and would also allow us to run much closer to that theoretical maximum efficiency)? Why continue to advocate such an anachronism of obsolete technology?

Here is another example for you. Go fly an Airbus and a Boeing Stearman (you can look that up). The Airbus will make you sweat less, will go faster and further and is smoother, more quiet and far more automated. The Stearman will leave you with a shit-eating grin on your face, no matter how long you fly it or how worn out you are afterward.


Nah, take a look again, for I've named your point when i wrote:

"Independent from the news, your point is that MTs are more engaging for the driver's and that everyone has their own perspective on what they are doing in daily commute to make it more fun, plus nobody slammed ATs in this thread."

If you or Tony expect me to write MTs are more fun then sorry, it won't happen, cause i pesonally find they are not fun but a pointless chore - and that is my opinion. That you and others find MTs in your opnion to be more fun, I've already understood. We have just different opinions on this and that should be OK, nothing missed.

Also I've already answered to the question of autonomous cars, when I wrote it strongly depends on the situation. Like when being stuck in heavy traffic - and there is no fun in that at all - or when being tired out and sleepy as hell, then I'd use this function. Whereas when there is a free road and i have time, i prefer to drive myself.

Thanks for your example, though i think that the biplane is also more fun than the airbus, because it's much smaller and much more nimble, thus you feel the g-forces more direct. An Honda S660 could be another example, cause while the car only has 64HP, it's very light and small, thus more nimble and fun to drive than most subcompacts.




You've managed to completely miss the points yet again...

1) I didn't say anywhere at any point that you couldn't prefer automatics. That is a straw man for you to attack. Nor did I say that I expected you to write that they are more fun.

But at least you have begun to acknowledge that there might be a different viewpoint on MT's than just your own, which is they need to die out of obsolescence.

2) So what you are saying is that you MIGHT prefer to have an automatic car in traffic because it sucks and isn't enjoyable, but in other circumstances you prefer to drive yourself.

Which means that in some cases, you actually PREFER older, less advanced and less efficient technology because it is more enjoyable?

See the point yet?

3) My example had little to with size and everything to do with engagement and participation. The Airbus would surprise you with what maneuvering it would do, but the Stearman is all mechanical, all cables and pulleys, and open air with no sound deadening, no cabin air, no automation and most importantly, it is NOT controlled by computers like the Airbus.

The point being that the reason the Stearman is so much more fun isn't just because of response, but also because of challenge, participation and sensation. You know, like a motorcycle versus a car, or an MT car vs an AT car.

You keep getting hung up on your efficiency claims, which really have nothing to do with anything, because if you were really interested solely in efficiency, then you would willingly give up your steering wheel and pedals in the interest of computers who can probably do it more efficiently...

And that was the point all along. There is spectrum of enthusiasm, and there is no need to make blanket statements like "the sooner the piece of antiquity dies, the better" or whatever your statement was.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-13-2018 18:30
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owequitit> Nope, I didn't miss the point, i simply have a different opinion on it, and that's fine ;)


Probably to shed some light on the discussion, i found two rather new videos on the subject. Check these out





When I watched them, I could relate to some of the points mentioned there, despite Germany is still heavy of manuals. Especially the point mentioned in first video - taking off from an complete stop is an issue in Germany, especially on hillsides. While newer cars have an hill-hold-assist, if you're waiting behind an older car at traffic lights it's better you leave some space - cause when they release the handbrake it's very possible they roll back (and it was not limited to MTS, but als DCTs).

Then the point with stress on clutch plate and torque converters taking this away - yep, some people at times do very bad misshifts that the smell of overheated/burned clutch plates hangs in the air.

While you guys explicitly mentioned distracted drivers due to automatic transmissions - my ex wife was the same, always checking cellphone at traffic lights in her mini cooper - I'm seeing this type of behaviour also with manual drivers in Germany. I guess it's based on how secure someone feels while driving, so that he/she gets bored and does that stuff.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 04:30
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KaizenDo wrote:
owequitit> Nope, I didn't miss the point, i simply have a different opinion on it, and that's fine ;)


Probably to shed some light on the discussion, i found two rather new videos on the subject. Check these out





When I watched them, I could relate to some of the points mentioned there, despite Germany is still heavy of manuals. Especially the point mentioned in first video - taking off from an complete stop is an issue in Germany, especially on hillsides. While newer cars have an hill-hold-assist, if you're waiting behind an older car at traffic lights it's better you leave some space - cause when they release the handbrake it's very possible they roll back (and it was not limited to MTS, but als DCTs).

Then the point with stress on clutch plate and torque converters taking this away - yep, some people at times do very bad misshifts that the smell of overheated/burned clutch plates hangs in the air.

While you guys explicitly mentioned distracted drivers due to automatic transmissions - my ex wife was the same, always checking cellphone at traffic lights in her mini cooper - I'm seeing this type of behaviour also with manual drivers in Germany. I guess it's based on how secure someone feels while driving, so that he/she gets bored and does that stuff.


As we are aware that you currently drive a Toyota Prius, have you actually driven a Honda with a stick shift?

(I have been driving Honda sticks for 34 years straight, since 1984, and in 3 different Civic's.)



superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 04:33
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KaizenDo wrote:
owequitit> Nope, I didn't miss the point, i simply have a different opinion on it, and that's fine ;)


Probably to shed some light on the discussion, i found two rather new videos on the subject. Check these out





When I watched them, I could relate to some of the points mentioned there, despite Germany is still heavy of manuals. Especially the point mentioned in first video - taking off from an complete stop is an issue in Germany, especially on hillsides. While newer cars have an hill-hold-assist, if you're waiting behind an older car at traffic lights it's better you leave some space - cause when they release the handbrake it's very possible they roll back (and it was not limited to MTS, but als DCTs).

Then the point with stress on clutch plate and torque converters taking this away - yep, some people at times do very bad misshifts that the smell of overheated/burned clutch plates hangs in the air.

While you guys explicitly mentioned distracted drivers due to automatic transmissions - my ex wife was the same, always checking cellphone at traffic lights in her mini cooper - I'm seeing this type of behaviour also with manual drivers in Germany. I guess it's based on how secure someone feels while driving, so that he/she gets bored and does that stuff.


As we are aware that you currently drive a Toyota Prius, have you actually driven a Honda with a stick shift?

(I have been driving Honda sticks for 34 years straight, since 1984, and in 3 different Civic's.)

And so far, knock on wood, I have not had to replace a clutch!

:)

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 07:10
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superchg2 wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
owequitit> Nope, I didn't miss the point, i simply have a different opinion on it, and that's fine ;)


Probably to shed some light on the discussion, i found two rather new videos on the subject. Check these out





When I watched them, I could relate to some of the points mentioned there, despite Germany is still heavy of manuals. Especially the point mentioned in first video - taking off from an complete stop is an issue in Germany, especially on hillsides. While newer cars have an hill-hold-assist, if you're waiting behind an older car at traffic lights it's better you leave some space - cause when they release the handbrake it's very possible they roll back (and it was not limited to MTS, but als DCTs).

Then the point with stress on clutch plate and torque converters taking this away - yep, some people at times do very bad misshifts that the smell of overheated/burned clutch plates hangs in the air.

While you guys explicitly mentioned distracted drivers due to automatic transmissions - my ex wife was the same, always checking cellphone at traffic lights in her mini cooper - I'm seeing this type of behaviour also with manual drivers in Germany. I guess it's based on how secure someone feels while driving, so that he/she gets bored and does that stuff.


As we are aware that you currently drive a Toyota Prius, have you actually driven a Honda with a stick shift?

(I have been driving Honda sticks for 34 years straight, since 1984, and in 3 different Civic's.)

And so far, knock on wood, I have not had to replace a clutch!

:)



I had to drive a VW Golf stick shift for driving school and license test. Beyond that I once drove my brothers Ford Focus stick shift.

After that I changed happily to automatics. I test drove a Honda Jazz Hybrid and a Honda Insight - and despite what you'll might say now, I'd still say both of these "eco cars" had an more direct steering feel and feedback from the road than the Toyotas i drove so far.

Some drivers in Germany though...


No VTEC involved :)

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: BMW Drops 3-Series Manual Globally... Audi A4 too...    (Score: 1, Normal) 10-14-2018 09:18
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KaizenDo wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
owequitit> Nope, I didn't miss the point, i simply have a different opinion on it, and that's fine ;)


Probably to shed some light on the discussion, i found two rather new videos on the subject. Check these out





When I watched them, I could relate to some of the points mentioned there, despite Germany is still heavy of manuals. Especially the point mentioned in first video - taking off from an complete stop is an issue in Germany, especially on hillsides. While newer cars have an hill-hold-assist, if you're waiting behind an older car at traffic lights it's better you leave some space - cause when they release the handbrake it's very possible they roll back (and it was not limited to MTS, but als DCTs).

Then the point with stress on clutch plate and torque converters taking this away - yep, some people at times do very bad misshifts that the smell of overheated/burned clutch plates hangs in the air.

While you guys explicitly mentioned distracted drivers due to automatic transmissions - my ex wife was the same, always checking cellphone at traffic lights in her mini cooper - I'm seeing this type of behaviour also with manual drivers in Germany. I guess it's based on how secure someone feels while driving, so that he/she gets bored and does that stuff.


As we are aware that you currently drive a Toyota Prius, have you actually driven a Honda with a stick shift?

(I have been driving Honda sticks for 34 years straight, since 1984, and in 3 different Civic's.)

And so far, knock on wood, I have not had to replace a clutch!

:)



I had to drive a VW Golf stick shift for driving school and license test. Beyond that I once drove my brothers Ford Focus stick shift.

After that I changed happily to automatics. I test drove a Honda Jazz Hybrid and a Honda Insight - and despite what you'll might say now, I'd still say both of these "eco cars" had an more direct steering feel and feedback from the road than the Toyotas i drove so far.

Some drivers in Germany though...


No VTEC involved :)


If you are in KC, look me up and we'll go for a ride in my Si, which has a smooth 6 speed. Most Honda shifters are excellent and superior to VW or Fords.





 
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