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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.

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CarPhreakD
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Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 15:05
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TonyEX wrote:
KaySee wrote:
...

I dunno Tony, what does it matter if a DCT or AT is faster than a manual? If a V6 Camry is faster than a Miata does that make it a better or more enjoyable car? Faster shifts doesn't mean a better transmission to me at least. Being much more boring, less involving and just taking that control out of my hands hugely out weighs any benefits for me. That is my opinion though. It's hard for me to get excited about fast shifting when I had nothing to do with it. It feels like I'd be saying look at this sweet route my Tesla auto pilot just took! Just not something I consider satisfying when I think about what I enjoy about driving. Please continue to enjoy all the stellar autos out there. Hopefully you'll keep a manual car around to enjoy too. I'm gonna keep my household all manual as long as I can.



That's a different point: What transmission is more fun to drive.

Personally I too prefer the MT, primarily because I can rock the car when it's just sitting there. And I can burn rubber whenever I feel like it.

But, what I prefer is not necessarily the most efficient.

When I got into a turn, for example, I prefer to keep my hands on the wheel. If I have to reach down to shift, then it gets in the way.



You're supposed to shift before entering a turn. I wouldn't shift in the middle of a turn with paddle shifters either, unless it was a weird turn that required it.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 18:32
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You are all WRONG....

Who cares if they don't make any more MT's?

The future is NO Transmission.

Go drive an EV.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 19:17
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CarPhreakD wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
KaySee wrote:
...

I dunno Tony, what does it matter if a DCT or AT is faster than a manual? If a V6 Camry is faster than a Miata does that make it a better or more enjoyable car? Faster shifts doesn't mean a better transmission to me at least. Being much more boring, less involving and just taking that control out of my hands hugely out weighs any benefits for me. That is my opinion though. It's hard for me to get excited about fast shifting when I had nothing to do with it. It feels like I'd be saying look at this sweet route my Tesla auto pilot just took! Just not something I consider satisfying when I think about what I enjoy about driving. Please continue to enjoy all the stellar autos out there. Hopefully you'll keep a manual car around to enjoy too. I'm gonna keep my household all manual as long as I can.



That's a different point: What transmission is more fun to drive.

Personally I too prefer the MT, primarily because I can rock the car when it's just sitting there. And I can burn rubber whenever I feel like it.

But, what I prefer is not necessarily the most efficient.

When I got into a turn, for example, I prefer to keep my hands on the wheel. If I have to reach down to shift, then it gets in the way.



You're supposed to shift before entering a turn. I wouldn't shift in the middle of a turn with paddle shifters either, unless it was a weird turn that required it.



I guess it's hard to explain and like my own prejudices.

I like to use the paddle shifters as sort of a preselector and the AT ( I'll guess a DCT too ) is very smooth at shifting without rocking the car.

The idea of doing all of your shifting, and braking before the turn is fine, but normally when I've done that, I find myself doing the shifting just before I enter the turn... you know... brake, slow down and down shift finished a split second before the turn.

However, driving the paddle shifted Acuras, I learned to drive differently. I'd do my braking yes, but I'd use the paddle shifters as a preselector. Fully knowing that I was going too fast to effect the shift into my selected gear ( going to fast, above redline ). So, what happened then is that the shift into the gear I wanted would be in the entry of the turn, not before.

Which was fine, as by then I had my hands firmly on the steering wheel.

BTW, with SH-AWD (and similar rear torque vectoring systems) this works great. As you are always on the power.

But you know what... honestly... we're discussing dinosaurs. Heel and toeing, huh?

I just want an EV AWD car with those electric motors driving directly, no need of a transmission.

I know Owe dismissed that, but folks, that IS THE FUTURE. Have any of you driven an AWD Tesla S or X? Those things are simply awesome.

Even the way our Clarity FCEV drives is eons ahead of an ICE with a transmission.

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-14-2018 19:27
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TonyEX wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
KaySee wrote:
...

I dunno Tony, what does it matter if a DCT or AT is faster than a manual? If a V6 Camry is faster than a Miata does that make it a better or more enjoyable car? Faster shifts doesn't mean a better transmission to me at least. Being much more boring, less involving and just taking that control out of my hands hugely out weighs any benefits for me. That is my opinion though. It's hard for me to get excited about fast shifting when I had nothing to do with it. It feels like I'd be saying look at this sweet route my Tesla auto pilot just took! Just not something I consider satisfying when I think about what I enjoy about driving. Please continue to enjoy all the stellar autos out there. Hopefully you'll keep a manual car around to enjoy too. I'm gonna keep my household all manual as long as I can.



That's a different point: What transmission is more fun to drive.

Personally I too prefer the MT, primarily because I can rock the car when it's just sitting there. And I can burn rubber whenever I feel like it.

But, what I prefer is not necessarily the most efficient.

When I got into a turn, for example, I prefer to keep my hands on the wheel. If I have to reach down to shift, then it gets in the way.



You're supposed to shift before entering a turn. I wouldn't shift in the middle of a turn with paddle shifters either, unless it was a weird turn that required it.



I guess it's hard to explain and like my own prejudices.

I like to use the paddle shifters as sort of a preselector and the AT ( I'll guess a DCT too ) is very smooth at shifting without rocking the car.

The idea of doing all of your shifting, and braking before the turn is fine, but normally when I've done that, I find myself doing the shifting just before I enter the turn... you know... brake, slow down and down shift finished a split second before the turn.

However, driving the paddle shifted Acuras, I learned to drive differently. I'd do my braking yes, but I'd use the paddle shifters as a preselector. Fully knowing that I was going too fast to effect the shift into my selected gear ( going to fast, above redline ). So, what happened then is that the shift into the gear I wanted would be in the entry of the turn, not before.

Which was fine, as by then I had my hands firmly on the steering wheel.

BTW, with SH-AWD (and similar rear torque vectoring systems) this works great. As you are always on the power.

But you know what... honestly... we're discussing dinosaurs. Heel and toeing, huh?

I just want an EV AWD car with those electric motors driving directly, no need of a transmission.

I know Owe dismissed that, but folks, that IS THE FUTURE. Have any of you driven an AWD Tesla S or X? Those things are simply awesome.

Even the way our Clarity FCEV drives is eons ahead of an ICE with a transmission.



Lol if I ever get chronic insomnia I may take you up on your offer Tony and give an EV a try. For the time being I get to sleep just fine. It's either three pedals or one pillow for me!

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-15-2018 03:18
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gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



To be fair to the manual, the ZF 8HP is an outlier, which is why so many people are using it. If there is one auto tranny that could be considered head and shoulders above the rest, it would be the 8HP. Most autos aren't close to that one.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-15-2018 11:15
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owequitit wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



To be fair to the manual, the ZF 8HP is an outlier, which is why so many people are using it. If there is one auto tranny that could be considered head and shoulders above the rest, it would be the 8HP. Most autos aren't close to that one.


Which brings up the question I've never seen addressed here (or anywhere else for that matter). Why didn't Honda/Acura just buy that thing and call it a day instead of saddling itself with the 9 speed that has given it such a black eye? Just to have "one gear up" on the competition, so to speak?

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-15-2018 11:39
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HondaForever wrote:
owequitit wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



To be fair to the manual, the ZF 8HP is an outlier, which is why so many people are using it. If there is one auto tranny that could be considered head and shoulders above the rest, it would be the 8HP. Most autos aren't close to that one.


Which brings up the question I've never seen addressed here (or anywhere else for that matter). Why didn't Honda/Acura just buy that thing and call it a day instead of saddling itself with the 9 speed that has given it such a black eye? Just to have "one gear up" on the competition, so to speak?


8HP is for long layout only and no FWD-only applications. 9HP accommodates transverse.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-15-2018 13:36
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honduh wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
owequitit wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



To be fair to the manual, the ZF 8HP is an outlier, which is why so many people are using it. If there is one auto tranny that could be considered head and shoulders above the rest, it would be the 8HP. Most autos aren't close to that one.


Which brings up the question I've never seen addressed here (or anywhere else for that matter). Why didn't Honda/Acura just buy that thing and call it a day instead of saddling itself with the 9 speed that has given it such a black eye? Just to have "one gear up" on the competition, so to speak?


8HP is for long layout only and no FWD-only applications. 9HP accommodates transverse.


Thanks a bunch!!

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-15-2018 21:36
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Also, itís not just the addition of another gear that makes the 9HP so different. I believe it has been mentioned here before but itís all due to the use of two dog gears. They need to be aligned and engaged and there is software to control the process including momentarily cutting power to protect from wear, that all introduces the delays and makes the shift quality so different from the 8HP. The latter uses friction clutches.

If you are interested, the article below gives a good overview of the differences and on the behavior the 9HP. Itís inherent in the design of the tranny and not necessarily because Acura screwed up the tuning. Now, Acura could have gone with a transverse 8sp, as Aisin had one at the time and is used by Lexus (RX) and Volvo. But I believe they chose the 9HP for fuel efficiency purposes.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/zfs-9-speed-9hp-transmission-puts-dog-clutches-on-the-leash/

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-19-2018 11:21
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KaySee wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



100% disagree. I've driven many medium to high power modern turbo cars with manual and they are still great. Autos and DCT are definitely great nowadays if you can tolerate them. But manuals are still very effective conduits and completely outclass them in driving involvement. That makes them better to me. Mechanical efficiency is only one metric. Depends on what you value more when driving.


I recently drove a buddy's BMW M2 with a manual. While the car was impressive on many levels, the manual had long, somewhat vague throws which left me wishing for the 8AT in my 340 (or at least the manual in my S2000). The S2000 spoils you with a manual because knowing what nailing a good shift feels like in that car, you don't get the sense that you can replicate it in the M2. With that said, the extra driver involvement is there if that's what's most important to you but I find myself looking for that mechanical quickness/perfection more than I used to and the (literal) feel a modern high-performance auto banging gears on an upshift and the exhaust snarl that comes along with it is thrilling in its own way. Like I said, I'm glad my S2000 is a manual but am also glad my BMW isn't. To be fair, I've yet to sample a Type-R and I do hope and imagine that would be an exception to my statements above.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-19-2018 13:20
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I would agree- a good manual can elevate the driving experience because of the feeling of control over the powertrain, but if it's sloppy and bad I'd rather take a decent automatic.

KaySee
Profile for KaySee
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-19-2018 13:39
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gofast182 wrote:
KaySee wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



100% disagree. I've driven many medium to high power modern turbo cars with manual and they are still great. Autos and DCT are definitely great nowadays if you can tolerate them. But manuals are still very effective conduits and completely outclass them in driving involvement. That makes them better to me. Mechanical efficiency is only one metric. Depends on what you value more when driving.


I recently drove a buddy's BMW M2 with a manual. While the car was impressive on many levels, the manual had long, somewhat vague throws which left me wishing for the 8AT in my 340 (or at least the manual in my S2000). The S2000 spoils you with a manual because knowing what nailing a good shift feels like in that car, you don't get the sense that you can replicate it in the M2. With that said, the extra driver involvement is there if that's what's most important to you but I find myself looking for that mechanical quickness/perfection more than I used to and the (literal) feel a modern high-performance auto banging gears on an upshift and the exhaust snarl that comes along with it is thrilling in its own way. Like I said, I'm glad my S2000 is a manual but am also glad my BMW isn't. To be fair, I've yet to sample a Type-R and I do hope and imagine that would be an exception to my statements above.



I completely understand and support this viewpoint. In the end I always feel it is about what is the most enjoyable for you and what your priorities are. From what you describe, it seems a nice automatic really suits your wants and needs and there is no problem with that. Just because I do not value the transmission executing shifts for me doesn't mean other people cannot find value there. I've driven some fantastic autos, and while I wouldn't want to own one, I can still see why people would be interested and enjoy them.

I think that's a big part of the reason why I've been a Honda fan for so long is because I really enjoy what they do with their overall controls and their manuals are for the most part fantastic. If a manual is shitty in a car that's a terrible experience just like if an auto is shitty. If it's a car I want and the manual is bad but it has an amazing automatic, for me, I would just move on to another car. While manual is still available I cannot justify that type of sacrifice. Again, I don't think there is a right or wrong way to go about these things. Cars are an extremely personal thing that varies greatly from person to person. As long as you enjoy yourself I think you are doing it right personally. Choice is good, so it's kinda sad that I'll have to look at used cars exclusively in the not too distant future. But I'm glad that the company that makes some of the best manuals around still offers a few bones for this stubborn dog.


JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-19-2018 17:31
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CarPhreakD wrote:
I would agree- a good manual can elevate the driving experience because of the feeling of control over the powertrain, but if it's sloppy and bad I'd rather take a decent automatic.



yep, I have sampled plenty of examples of this.

And then there's yet a 3rd scenario. There are some cars which offer perfectly fine MTs but there's nothing to really gain in terms of driving enjoyment or performance by opting for the MT vs the automatic. Yeah, I'm talking about the HR-V.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Audi Will Reportedly No Longer Offer Any Manual Transmissions in the U.S.    (Score: 1, Normal) 09-20-2018 01:27
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gofast182 wrote:
KaySee wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I like Tony, including his politics, and enjoy reading his posts. I didn't mean to attack him but the constant posts of driving heroics at the wheel of a car with the ZF 9HP, which I've driven several versions of, are overstated or made from a place of naivety.

My comment had nothing to do with speed, whether something is faster than an Acura or isn't. Just that transmissions like the ZF 8AT are a revelation to the automatic transmission in general with it's shift speed, refinement, and ability to handle large amounts of power. Many professionals say it's faster than some DCTs which I believe.

In some circumstances the 9HP, especially when using paddles, is unquestionably slower than shifting a manual. In no circumstance can I shift a manual (up or down) faster than the ZF 8AT.

With the power of modern cars, turbos with boost that needs to kept up, etc the high-performance automatics that exist now, be they DCT or ones like the ZF 8AT, are better than manuals. That's something I never thought I'd say 5 years ago. We can be thankful for cars like the S2000 where a good manual shines but that's the past.



100% disagree. I've driven many medium to high power modern turbo cars with manual and they are still great. Autos and DCT are definitely great nowadays if you can tolerate them. But manuals are still very effective conduits and completely outclass them in driving involvement. That makes them better to me. Mechanical efficiency is only one metric. Depends on what you value more when driving.


I recently drove a buddy's BMW M2 with a manual. While the car was impressive on many levels, the manual had long, somewhat vague throws which left me wishing for the 8AT in my 340 (or at least the manual in my S2000). The S2000 spoils you with a manual because knowing what nailing a good shift feels like in that car, you don't get the sense that you can replicate it in the M2. With that said, the extra driver involvement is there if that's what's most important to you but I find myself looking for that mechanical quickness/perfection more than I used to and the (literal) feel a modern high-performance auto banging gears on an upshift and the exhaust snarl that comes along with it is thrilling in its own way. Like I said, I'm glad my S2000 is a manual but am also glad my BMW isn't. To be fair, I've yet to sample a Type-R and I do hope and imagine that would be an exception to my statements above.



To be fair here again, BMW's (IMO) have long had a sort of rubbery and vague shifter feel. Always seemed sort of odd for a car billing itself as the ultimate driving machine. That said, I have seen affordable short shift kits (that could easily be removed at the end of lease) completely transform the experience to one that is much closer to a good Honda manual.


 
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