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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked

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Hondatalover
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Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2018 02:11
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https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/Report-Horizon-Airline-employee-hijacked-plane-13148484.php


Thankfully no one innocent was hurt. This world is crazy.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2018 13:09
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Hondatalover wrote:
https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/Report-Horizon-Airline-employee-hijacked-plane-13148484.php


Thankfully no one innocent was hurt. This world is crazy.




How the hell did someone steal a plane? Oh... the guy is from Pierce County.. likely a Tacoma resident... OK, it figures.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2018 14:57
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Do any of you see the advertisements below this post? Lately I've noticed that it appears there's a built in algorithm that takes a key word and puts what it considers relevant advertisements below the thread. This one is trying to sell us commercial aircraft! Maybe Owe might be interested :-)

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2018 15:00
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^^Hmmm. Now it's disappeared...Should've taken advantage of the good deals and ordered my 787...
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2018 19:58
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HondaForever wrote:
Do any of you see the advertisements below this post? Lately I've noticed that it appears there's a built in algorithm that takes a key word and puts what it considers relevant advertisements below the thread. This one is trying to sell us commercial aircraft! Maybe Owe might be interested :-)



I have ZERO desire to own a commercial airplane. Too damn expensive.

That said, the guy had technical knowledge of the airplane. I believe it was a mechanic, though some speculation has it being a ramper, which honestly is HIGHLY unlikely. My money is on mechanic.

Otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to get it started.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-11-2018 23:13
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HondaForever wrote:
^^Hmmm. Now it's disappeared...Should've taken advantage of the good deals and ordered my 787...



When I worked at Boeing I figure I'd get an employee discount on a 787...

But then I didn't make enough to buy one... A classic Catch 22.

And then, I'd have to hire Owe to flight it. I don't think I can afford him plus then "my pilot" would keep telling me that I was wrong wanting to go to Kona... we should fly to Honolulu or Palm Springs instead. ;-)




owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-12-2018 01:15
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TonyEX wrote:
HondaForever wrote:
^^Hmmm. Now it's disappeared...Should've taken advantage of the good deals and ordered my 787...



When I worked at Boeing I figure I'd get an employee discount on a 787...

But then I didn't make enough to buy one... A classic Catch 22.

And then, I'd have to hire Owe to flight it. I don't think I can afford him plus then "my pilot" would keep telling me that I was wrong wanting to go to Kona... we should fly to Honolulu or Palm Springs instead. ;-)






If it was a 787, I would have no problem going to Kona.

That said, if you can afford a 787, there is a good chance you can afford to pay me. LOL.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2018 06:57
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What's the most difficult landing you've had to make owe?
Nick GravesX
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Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2018 11:20
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Dren wrote:
What's the most difficult landing you've had to make owe?


I had an 'Airplane' moment, reading that.

The time he had to come in low..?

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2018 01:38
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Dren wrote:
What's the most difficult landing you've had to make owe?


Depends how you define "difficult" LOL.

The two that stand out in my mind are the following. I'll let you decide which is more difficult.

1) When I was flight instructing, most of my experience was with Private Pilot students, or people that are working on their first license. Since I became quite experienced in the specifics of that level of fundamental training (common errors, troubleshooting and fixing/retraining) I spent a lot of time with "problem" students who were having specific issues or were having trouble progressing through their training. All told, I think I directly trained about 300 Private Pilot students, which is actually quite a lot. I didn't necessarily do all of their training, but I at least worked with them, and most I did the majority of their training. I just mention this because with the motor and mental skills involved, as well as the reality of being in an airplane, there is a certain level of risk that comes along with this type of flight operation. In most cases, students don't get you into trouble because they are bad people, but more because they don't realize what they are about to do or have done. In fact, flight instructing is one of the key areas that makes "flying" as a profession so dangerous. Everyone likes to put all of the perceived risk on airlines, but airlines are so safe in this day and age that most pilots at that level will go an entire career without any major issues. Not so at the lower levels of flying, where the risk is often much higher.

This is crucial to the story because as an instructor, you become accustomed to "seeing it coming." Obviously, you are aware of the potential mistakes, but once you have been teaching this level for about 1,000 hours you get really good at seeing them before they happen.

Anyway, I had been working with this student who was assigned to me because he was having general issues with good decision making and risk assessment. He just wasn't producing the results that are expected in terms of decision making. The first time I flew with him on a really windy day (that I knew he couldn't handle and had tried to subtly talk him out of, you know to work on decision making) he wanted to go flying, but wouldn't remove the tie downs. When asked why, he said "I didn't want the airplane to blow away." Hmmmm... So I asked if it was "OK for the airplane to blow away with us in it?" as a final big hint. He laughed and said "no, it's pretty windy and we should probably not go." So I said, "Ok, are we going?" "Yup." Alrighty then. As you can see, he had a bit of a macho complex, and I have a tool for that, but it is sort of harsh. So be it. I took him up in the traffic pattern and let him fumble around with 3 or 4 landings, which he couldn't handle and went around each time (at least that decision was good). Finally, after about 30 minutes of not being able to land in the pattern, he looked at me in a panic and said "I don't think I can land this, you are going to have to do it." So I looked him straight in the face and said "are you KIDDING ME? I can't land in this type of weather, that's why I told you I didn't want to go!" The rush of panic on his face was simultaneously priceless and sad. I then told him that we had about 2:45 minutes of fuel on board, so we better to work out a solution to our problem in that amount of time. At this point he was about to cry and REALLY began to panic. At this point, I took the controls and proceeded to give him an effective lecture on why we have tools that we use to assess risk and personal limits (now that I had his undivided attention). I also used the opportunity to reinforce the fundamentals of crosswind landings. Didn't have too much of an issue with the macho after that.

But, on a later flight with the same student, we were coming home from a cross country flight and he had been making good choices and his heavy crosswind landings were coming together nicely. He brought me home and made a PERFECT, text book, nose high, full stall crosswind landing. He was on centerline, he was full stall in the proper pitch attitude and he GREASED it on (not necessarily the goal in a heavy crosswind, but sometimes it happens). Absolutely perfect. I couldn't have done better. Then, as the nose gear came down, for whatever reason (he never could tell me why) he stomped full right rudder. At this point, we were going somewhere around 50-60MPH in a Cessna 172, which is top heavy. Needless to say, the airplane swerved violently to the right and came up on the nose wheel and left main as the right main came off the ground. I always guard the controls, so I did the only thing I could and applied full left rudder to bring it back down (at this point, it was so fast, there was no opportunity for "positive exchange of flight controls"). The airplane stopped, came back and started to settle back down on all three wheels. It was at this time, that *I think* he finished processing what he had just done (again, he was unable to confirm what he was thinking) and he stomped full left rudder. Since the airplane was just settling back onto the runway, it still had all of the momentum from the top heavy wing carrying it down, so when he stomped full left rudder, it continued over toward the right coming even further up on the right main and nosewheel. In fact, it came up so far, that all I could see out my side window was the runway edge. I stomped full right rudder to try and bring it back, but I distinctly remembering "That's it, we're going cartwheeling down the runway." There was no "life flashing before your eyes" moment because there was simply no time for it. There was only a surreal sort of out of body acceptance that it was the end. I had put in all the controls I had, and I didn't think it was going to stop it. I remember just sort of accepting it. The airplane came up so far, that I was 100% sure the wing was going to drag and send us cartwheeling (wingtip on a 172 is just over 6' off the ground, to give you an idea how far it came over). When it settled back out on the runway, there was a sort of tunnel vision moment where it took me about 3 seconds (or what seemed like it) to figure out if I was dead, or still alive. I remember being surprised that I was still alive and the airplane seemed to be intact. To this day, it is a possibility that I am in some form of purgatory... LOL. I still have no idea how much that wingtip cleared the ground by, and I never will. I can say that it probably came down to inches.

I had a really green instructor one time tell me that I shouldn't have "resigned." I tried to explain the difference between resignation and accepting the fact that you actually can't do anything else. I had no control inputs left to use, and thus was along for the ride, no matter how much I WANTED to keep the airplane under control. He didn't get it...

2) We were landing in Gulfport, MS one night in the middle of the remnants of a tropical storm. I remember it was raining so hard, we could barely see the runway as we were landing on it. We could see the lights, but they were so obscured by rainfall on the window, they weren't clear. I wasn't 100% sure of how high I was off the runway until we touched down. That one was pretty tough, but I think the first one was worse. I haven't had an airline experience that even comes close to stuff that was nearly daily as an instructor. From mid-airs to stuff like the story above (yes, I have quite a few more) the airlines are very insulated from risk and rightfully so.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2018 02:44
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P.S. I should say that landing the MD-80 was ALWAYS difficult. LOL. Small wing, long airplane with lots of surface area and old wing technology.

We used to say that 20knots fast on landing was better than 1 knot slow, because if you were even 1 knot slow, the damn thing would fall out of the sky on landing. Like you would raise the nose to flare it and nothing. It just slammed on. Couple that with the short, stiff landing gear and OUCH. Tough as a tank though. The tail literally fell off on one of the prototypes. They put it back on and it went on to serve with SwissAir for 20+ years. LOL.

Anyway, it would weathervane into the wind something fierce, the engines were unresponsive, and it had such a long wheelbase, you needed about 120' to do a U-turn... It was actually only about 10' shorter than a 757-200, which makes it quite a bit longer than any 737 or A320 made.

HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2018 09:20
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Interesting story. Well told. I am sure you are aware of the "Ask the Pilot" guy. You guys should collaborate on something, a book perhaps?

http://www.askthepilot.com/

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2018 17:09
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owequitit wrote:
Finally, after about 30 minutes of not being able to land in the pattern, he looked at me in a panic and said "I don't think I can land this, you are going to have to do it." So I looked him straight in the face and said "are you KIDDING ME? I can't land in this type of weather, that's why I told you I didn't want to go!" The rush of panic on his face was simultaneously priceless and sad. I then told him that we had about 2:45 minutes of fuel on board, so we better to work out a solution to our problem in that amount of time. At this point he was about to cry and REALLY began to panic. At this point, I took the controls and proceeded to give him an effective lecture on why we have tools that we use to assess risk and personal limits (now that I had his undivided attention). I also used the opportunity to reinforce the fundamentals of crosswind landings. Didn't have too much of an issue with the macho after that.

ROFL. That is a good one. Thanks for the laugh and glad you weren't swept up by the darwin award.

This sort of reminds me of my driving instructor eons ago. The first thing he would ask us before we started the car..."did you pray today?"

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-14-2018 21:36
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Teaching guys how to run around a race track seemed bad enough, but teaching them how to fly? Glad your so courageous Owe. :)
owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 00:07
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HondaForever wrote:
Interesting story. Well told. I am sure you are aware of the "Ask the Pilot" guy. You guys should collaborate on something, a book perhaps?

http://www.askthepilot.com/



I do some of my own writing on the side, but it tends to be more technical than his which really are more OP ED. He has some valid points, but also some more political and personal ones.

I also don't agree with a lot of his assertions and he puts way too much of his political agenda into things. Good for him that he is a successful blogger and I don't want to take that away from him.

I have thought about writing books, but based on reactions here I doubt anybody would actually pay for that. My contribution would be more technical in nature based on my specific backgrounds, rather than humorous. At least that is how I see it progressing.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 00:48
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honduh wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Finally, after about 30 minutes of not being able to land in the pattern, he looked at me in a panic and said "I don't think I can land this, you are going to have to do it." So I looked him straight in the face and said "are you KIDDING ME? I can't land in this type of weather, that's why I told you I didn't want to go!" The rush of panic on his face was simultaneously priceless and sad. I then told him that we had about 2:45 minutes of fuel on board, so we better to work out a solution to our problem in that amount of time. At this point he was about to cry and REALLY began to panic. At this point, I took the controls and proceeded to give him an effective lecture on why we have tools that we use to assess risk and personal limits (now that I had his undivided attention). I also used the opportunity to reinforce the fundamentals of crosswind landings. Didn't have too much of an issue with the macho after that.

ROFL. That is a good one. Thanks for the laugh and glad you weren't swept up by the darwin award.

This sort of reminds me of my driving instructor eons ago. The first thing he would ask us before we started the car..."did you pray today?"



It's always an interesting conversation any time the topic of spirituality comes up. I don't really discuss it and I am not formally "spiritual" in terms of organized religion or church. However, life experience has made me a believer in something other than, and bigger than, myself. I guess you could chalk it up to random chance and I wouldn't be able to refute that, but I also have stories where I got a weird feeling in the pit of my stomach and a quiet voice in the back of my head that told me to look in a specific spot outside just in time to avoid a mid-air collision. Why that specific spot at THAT specific time? How do you explain it more than once? There is no sensory explanation for that, as I had no sensory cues to guide that nor am I psychic. So people can take that for what it is worth, but I have had more instances than I can count on both hands and some of my toes where things worked out differently than they could have or should have and there is no logical explanation for it.

I actually loved flight instruction and did it for what was considered a "long time" for most pilots. But ultimately, my analysis of the risk didn't justify the benefit of it. In busy training airspace it was just inevitable that eventually something would happen. Couple that with potential engine issues, weather, and other circumstance, and it was literally always there. Had a few of all of those other things too. LOL.

There was another time we would have died when I was working with a CFI (Certified Flight Instructor) student. This had me sitting on the left of the plane and "playing" the student, with him obviously preparing to become an instructor. We were cleared for takeoff by the tower controller (again in a high wing 172) and as I started to taxi onto the runway (I was going to demonstrate a takeoff for him to "grade"), he slammed on the brakes and pointed to the Robinson R22 from one of the local helicopter schools that was doing an autorotation to the runway we were just cleared to take off on. I had no visual opportunity to see it (they were in a tight, right 180* turn) because it was above my wing from my vantage point and thus I couldn't avoid any accident. Luckily, my teaching method to make students turn toward final for the runway so they could "clear" the runway pattern before entering the runway was vindicated that day, as it was probably the sole decision that saved all four of our lives (2 in the helicopter and 2 in the Cessna). He would have landed right on top of us just as we entered the runway.

The thing to understand about autorotations is that they are basically "gliding" a helicopter and they are using all of their speed to keep the rotor turning and keep the RPM's up. As soon as they get close enough to the ground to "flare" they suck all of the energy out of the rotor to stop the rapid descent and transition to a hover or in the case of a real engine failure, slam it into the ground as gently as possible. That happens at about 6-10' off the ground, which coincidentally happens to be about the height of a Cessna 172. No doubt it would have ended poorly for both of us. They wouldn't have had the energy or maneuverability to do anything at that point, because they were too low in the rotation.

I can't remember whether it was me or the student who queried the controller after slamming on the brakes (who was himself a trainee) and said "do you want us to wait for the helicopter that is about to land?" There was a moment of confusion on the part of the controller and then silence and then the unmistakable understanding that he had cleared an airplane to takeoff from a runway that was "occupied" by a landing aircraft and that the only thing that stopped it was our decision to angle toward the approach end. He sort of panicked on the radio and then his supervisor took over almost immediately.

It is a life lesson in James Reason's theory of multiple layers of protections and how accidents don't happen by a single event, but rather a series of events which are not stopped by protections that are supposed to occur. It is usually referred to as "the Swiss Cheese Model" (which Reason actually hates). I always apply it when I study accidents and it is amazing how in pretty much 100% of mishaps you can relate it back to organizational failures that occurred long before the accident. The Space Shuttle is always the most classic for me as both Challenger and Columbia were nearly exclusively the result of bad policy and risk analysis on the part of NASA (oddly, many of the direct causal factors were the same, even though the actual accidents were different).

But I digress...

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 00:50
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sadlerau wrote:
Teaching guys how to run around a race track seemed bad enough, but teaching them how to fly? Glad your so courageous Owe. :)


I don't know that I would say that. LOL. The potential end result in both cases is probably the same. It isn't like racing cars don't have risks too! Haha.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 05:20
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A fellow S2Ker recounted how he got into a serious tank-slapper that he realised was beyond his control. He recounted that he then heard my voice, Obi-Wan Kenobe style, tell him to "let go of the wheel...". He did, and the car sorted itself out.

It's funny where these sub-conscious 'reptilian reserves' come from.

He bought me a beer and recounted the tale...


sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 08:54
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Always new the Force was strong with you Nick.
HondaForever
Profile for HondaForever
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 11:14
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owequitit wrote:
honduh wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Finally, after about 30 minutes of not being able to land in the pattern, he looked at me in a panic and said "I don't think I can land this, you are going to have to do it." So I looked him straight in the face and said "are you KIDDING ME? I can't land in this type of weather, that's why I told you I didn't want to go!" The rush of panic on his face was simultaneously priceless and sad. I then told him that we had about 2:45 minutes of fuel on board, so we better to work out a solution to our problem in that amount of time. At this point he was about to cry and REALLY began to panic. At this point, I took the controls and proceeded to give him an effective lecture on why we have tools that we use to assess risk and personal limits (now that I had his undivided attention). I also used the opportunity to reinforce the fundamentals of crosswind landings. Didn't have too much of an issue with the macho after that.

ROFL. That is a good one. Thanks for the laugh and glad you weren't swept up by the darwin award.

This sort of reminds me of my driving instructor eons ago. The first thing he would ask us before we started the car..."did you pray today?"



... but I also have stories where I got a weird feeling in the pit of my stomach and a quiet voice in the back of my head that told me to look in a specific spot outside just in time to avoid a mid-air collision.


Owe, are you sure it wasn't the ACAS system you were hearing? Just joking, Owe.. :-) I know exactly what you mean.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 11:30
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owequitit wrote:
..

But I digress...



Did you ever think of wearing a helmet and a fire retardant flight suit?

I can't think of many jobs that would be more dangerous than a general aviation pilot instructor. And I don't figure it pays that well considering the risk.

Are simulators helping out? I know of a ex coworker who worked his way up to a twin engine with instruments rating because they had lots of simulators at his work ( in Phoenix of all places ) and he didn't need many hours of actual flight instruction.

Digressing is good. The tangents are interesting.

Gfn8r
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Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 18:34
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Were you near the end of the runway when you had the near-miss, or midfield? Seems like they’d want to autorotate someplace into the middle of the runway. (Or are choppers required to get down to a certain altitude above the runway and air-taxi the length to a taxiway?)
NSXman
Profile for NSXman
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 19:10
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TonyEX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
..

But I digress...



Did you ever think of wearing a helmet and a fire retardant flight suit?

I can't think of many jobs that would be more dangerous than a general aviation pilot instructor. And I don't figure it pays that well considering the risk.

Are simulators helping out? I know of a ex coworker who worked his way up to a twin engine with instruments rating because they had lots of simulators at his work ( in Phoenix of all places ) and he didn't need many hours of actual flight instruction.

Digressing is good. The tangents are interesting.



There is an airport on the north side of Phoenix that does a lot of training, and is one of the busiest airports in the world in terms of take offs and landings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Deer_Valley_Airport

Flying is huge when it rains every 100 days.

TonyEX
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Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 21:27
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Nick GravesX wrote:
A fellow S2Ker recounted how he got into a serious tank-slapper that he realised was beyond his control. He recounted that he then heard my voice, Obi-Wan Kenobe style, tell him to "let go of the wheel...". He did, and the car sorted itself out.

It's funny where these sub-conscious 'reptilian reserves' come from.

He bought me a beer and recounted the tale...





Funny.... a few years ago two of us went to Newark, NJ for a week for work.

It was snowing when we landed, it was also below freezing -winter, you see. The younger guy offered to drive - a Mazda 5. He's a Southern California native, never driven in serious weather, not even gone skying.

We go down the road and take the tight transition road to the freeway and suddenly we hit black ice and the kid starts to saw hard at the wheel, so we suddenly are swinging wildy left and right... with a verious serious concrete barrier to our right and the freeway to our left.

The few cars around us were giving us space, thank God.

I yelled out instinctively: "Let go of the wheel, it's a front wheel drive car!!!"

He did, the car straightened out and he parked off the shoulder soon thereafter.

I drove us to the hotel. He bought me a beer too.

Amazing what happens when you let the car just take care of itself.

notyper
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Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 21:57
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NSXman wrote:


There is an airport on the north side of Phoenix that does a lot of training, and is one of the busiest airports in the world in terms of take offs and landings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Deer_Valley_Airport

Flying is huge when it rains every 100 days.



I was once temporarily detained at the construction site of that airport for doing passes down the unpaved runway on my dirt bike (honda XR100). I think I was about 12 at the time.....

SC

honduh
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Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-15-2018 23:55
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owequitit wrote:
It is a life lesson in James Reason's theory of multiple layers of protections and how accidents don't happen by a single event, but rather a series of events which are not stopped by protections that are supposed to occur. It is usually referred to as "the Swiss Cheese Model" (which Reason actually hates). I always apply it when I study accidents and it is amazing how in pretty much 100% of mishaps you can relate it back to organizational failures that occurred long before the accident. The Space Shuttle is always the most classic for me as both Challenger and Columbia were nearly exclusively the result of bad policy and risk analysis on the part of NASA (oddly, many of the direct causal factors were the same, even though the actual accidents were different).


Yeah, I remember about the Challenger accident. It was like a bad case of the telephone game, and the mistakes added up.

Also, what you described is covered in Malcolm Gladwell's book, Outliers, when he discusses about plane disasters. He also gave the 3-mile island accident as another good example. It all started from a relatively routine giant water filter blockage. The blockage caused moisture to leak into the plant's air system. That tripped two valves shutting down the flow of cold water into the steam generator. The backup cooling system should have kicked in but for some reason the valves had been closed on the backup. The indicator in the control room to show they were closed was blocked by a repair tag. So the reactor had to depend on another backup system but as luck would have it that system was not working properly the day of the accident either. Worse the gauge that was supposed to tell that it was not working...also failed. It was an unfortunate sequence of events.

You have some very interesting anecdotes. Makes good life lessons, especially to share with the young ones.

owequitit
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Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-16-2018 00:56
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HondaForever wrote:
owequitit wrote:
honduh wrote:
owequitit wrote:
Finally, after about 30 minutes of not being able to land in the pattern, he looked at me in a panic and said "I don't think I can land this, you are going to have to do it." So I looked him straight in the face and said "are you KIDDING ME? I can't land in this type of weather, that's why I told you I didn't want to go!" The rush of panic on his face was simultaneously priceless and sad. I then told him that we had about 2:45 minutes of fuel on board, so we better to work out a solution to our problem in that amount of time. At this point he was about to cry and REALLY began to panic. At this point, I took the controls and proceeded to give him an effective lecture on why we have tools that we use to assess risk and personal limits (now that I had his undivided attention). I also used the opportunity to reinforce the fundamentals of crosswind landings. Didn't have too much of an issue with the macho after that.

ROFL. That is a good one. Thanks for the laugh and glad you weren't swept up by the darwin award.

This sort of reminds me of my driving instructor eons ago. The first thing he would ask us before we started the car..."did you pray today?"



... but I also have stories where I got a weird feeling in the pit of my stomach and a quiet voice in the back of my head that told me to look in a specific spot outside just in time to avoid a mid-air collision.


Owe, are you sure it wasn't the ACAS system you were hearing? Just joking, Owe.. :-) I know exactly what you mean.



We had ADS-B, but no ACAS. Not required on smaller airplanes and too expensive. The new ADS-B out technology is pretty cool though because it works with airplanes that DO have TCAS and will help a lot when you are trying to fly a fast jet into an airport with lots of slow GA traffic.

The ADS-B is great, but it had limitations, especially close to the ground or behind terrain and out of view of an antenna. I actually did one of the proving flights through AZ and SoCal when they were expanding the coverage nationwide, but before that (and at the time of the near miss) we only had coverage in the local area and in some limited cases down in the Phoenix valley. In either case, ADS-B is essentially a signal relay, so like all UHF and VHF signals, it is line of sight only. That lead to limitations when operating at low altitudes because your ability to transmit line of sight to a receiver is more limited. This is why jets have a much longer radio range than something flying low. So it definitely improved things, but there were still some distinct limitations you had to be careful of.

I had a near miss with a helicopter out in the practice area that was so close one morning that we could read each other's 12" tall N-numbers with a closure rate of pretty close to 200MPH. I think we missed each other by about 200' laterally, same altitude. We were setting up for a ground reference maneuver (with a private pilot student), and we had an observer in the back who was interested in taking flying lessons. We did the first attempt at the maneuver and the student wanted to practice again, so we were setting up again by doing another set of clearing turns when a helicopter went streaking by. He called us on practice area frequency by tail number and I asked him if "NXXX" was his number. He said "yeah, our companies need to talk about this because that was too close." I agreed and told him I would run it up the flagpole too. Turns out we were using different frequencies in the same areas because of the high volume of traffic in all practice areas. Since they seldom operated at the same altitudes we did (except ground reference, where we were required to be 1,000' or less) their management didn't want their pilots to be hassled with the congestion... Needless to say, my incessant insistence that my students ALWAYS do clearing turns was also vindicated that day.

Anyway, I was really proud of my student because he called off the maneuver at that point and started setting up to get home. He literally did everything on his own and just sprung into action and took us back to the airport. Nailed the landing, taxied in and shut down. I casually walked the observer back inside while my student tied down the airplane (the observer was pretty quiet the whole time but didn't even move after the incident). When I got back to the airplane, my student told me "I think I shit my pants." Since it isn't a totally unusual reaction to something like that, I asked him if he was serious and offered to finish tying down the airplane. He didn't actually specify, but he did disappear for a little bit, so maybe he did. Either way, I commended him afterward for his excellent discipline and character in calling off the flight, putting it out of his mind and doing what he needed to do in order to get safely back on the ground. Most students at that stage would have just fallen apart.

Interestingly, I have sort of developed this uncanny ability to smell traffic conflicts. Sort of a sixth sense I guess.

We were going into Joplin, MO after I quit instructing one time and I heard the tower clear a Cherokee to land behind us. As soon as the Cherokee pilot responded to the tower, the hair on the back of my neck stood up and I told the captain that he was going to be a collision hazard. My captain was like "You're crazy, we are going so fast, he won't even be able to catch us. Besides, he is going to follow us." I said "yeah, unless he turns base early and heads straight for us head on." The captain was like "true, I guess we will keep an eye on him." He asked my why I was so worried about it and I said "I can just tell." He agreed to keep an eye on him. He was instructed to follow us, so there was a chance it would work out, but I KNEW in the back of my mind it wasn't going to. Sure enough, he turned base at the same time we did (still didn't have a visual on him, which is harder than you think when you are in a fast moving jet and they are in a small single engine). As we rolled onto base, I spotted him and immediately identified that he was on a direct collision course. I told the captain, "he is going to hit us, you need to move NOW." He was like "What should I do, I can't see him." I was like "climb or turn early or both, but do it now." The captain started to roll into the turn and level off and as soon as he did that, we got a TCAS RA to climb. It was actually kind of funny because he firewalled it, pointed the nose at Jupiter (I think) and literally blasted out of the conflict. I honestly didn't know a turbine airplane would climb like that in a dirty configuration with 100% of the drag out. We are talking about peaking at like 8,000+ FPM out of there. We climbed so hard, the guy in the tower was confused because he couldn't see us above the tower cab anymore. So we came back, the Cherokee had already landed, we landed and as we were exiting the runway to go back the other way, the damn guy ALMOST his us again, and again the tower guy was oblivious! We both said some swear words, shrugged it off and laughed.

Interesting fact for you, which is a little off topic. The termination of your path (applies for perspective art, cars, airplanes, anything that moves) is a point in space that does not move relative to your line of sight. When teaching landings, I always referred to it as "the zone of no movement" because once a student could see it (of course you had to show them how to find it and demonstrate it) they can quickly and easily determine where the airplane is going to end up. Teach them how to apply it to a point on the runway, and they can start to control their glide path for landing.

Anyway, this point will neither move up nor down, nor left or right in your windscreen. You can literally put a mark on it on the windscreen (which is how I taught them to see it) and the airplane will impact the ground at that point in the window if you don't make any changes. The reason this is important to the conversation, is that it is the key to determining if you are on a collision course with something. When you are scanning for traffic (as was the case in Joplin) and you see them and they appear to be stationary in your window and only grow larger, then you ARE going to hit them. Period. That is how I knew we were on a direct collision course with that guy before TCAS did. That knowledge has saved my bacon more than once as well.




Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-16-2018 05:07
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The Zone of No Movement thing is very on-topic - it also applies to motorcyclists trying to avoid the proverbial 'brick in the road'.

AKA, look where you want to go and not where you're going. If they look worriedly at the brick, they'll hit it.

A similar concept is applied to spinning cars on track days; aim for where he span, don't follow which way it's reversing - or you'll collect it.

Gfn8r
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Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-16-2018 18:09
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Boy, these anecdotes actually make me glad that I’m on two grounding meds for a a third-class medical! Sounds like mid-airs (and near-misses) happen more often than one might think (and not just on the FISKE arrival to Oshkosh)!

Unfortunately, if that happened, I’d probably be shaken up enough that things could get ugly if I was up there solo, and couldn’t get the autopilot going or otherwise be able to take a second to calm down—like on short final!

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Alaska Airlines plane hijacked    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-16-2018 19:11
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Gfn8r wrote:
Boy, these anecdotes actually make me glad that I’m on two grounding meds for a a third-class medical! Sounds like mid-airs (and near-misses) happen more often than one might think (and not just on the FISKE arrival to Oshkosh)!

Unfortunately, if that happened, I’d probably be shaken up enough that things could get ugly if I was up there solo, and couldn’t get the autopilot going or otherwise be able to take a second to calm down—like on short final!



I don't know what you meant to say about those meds...

But, with 200 Mil you can buy an airliner and have it land itself automatically with full TCAS, ILS, GPS, mission computer, coffee maker, etc...


 
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