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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail

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Jovian8
Profile for Jovian8
"Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-04-2018 19:02
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Scary bad handling.
Cue at 9:40, 10:30.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/08/be-thankful-the-u-s-market-nissan-kicks-has-standard-stability-control/



Chris_6MT
Profile for Chris_6MT
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-04-2018 19:42
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Well it was fine with the ESP on, except that it would have hit the moose.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-04-2018 22:40
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And I guess that's why so many automakers put non-defeatable stability control on their cars today.

As tire grip goes up (and it has gone up a lot over the last 20 years) suspension design and center of gravity become ever more important. 10% less grip and this would probably never have happened. As it stands the roll center and Cg are way too far apart on this car.

What crossed my mind was how beneficial future electric cars will be to stability because designed right, they'll have all their weight 20-24" off the ground.

SC

Gfn8r
Profile for Gfn8r
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2018 12:31
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I posed the question on there as to what roll angle would fire the side-curtain airbags, were this vehicle so-equipped. 90-degrees? When the roof first hits the ground as the vehicle rolls?

Anyone from TOV’s “Best & Brightest” know how that works?

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2018 15:09
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SIDE-IMPACT, CURTAIN SIDE-IMPACT, AND CURTAIN SIDEIMPACT/ROLLOVER
AIR BAG SYSTEMS
Supplemental side-impact air bags, curtain side-impact air bags, and curtain sideimpact/rollover
air bags are available on many 2013 NISSAN vehicles. Side-impact air
bags (if so equipped) are located on the side of the seatbacks of the front seats. Curtain
side-impact air bags (if so equipped) and curtain side-impact/rollover air bags (if so
equipped) are located in the left and right side roof rails or in the upper part of the front
door panels.
Side-impact air bags and curtain side-impact air bags are designed to inflate in higherseverity
side collisions, on the side where the vehicle is impacted. However, they may
inflate if the forces in another type of collision are similar to those of a higher-severity sideimpact.
Curtain side-impact/rollover air bags are designed to inflate in certain types of
side-impact collisions and rollovers.
Curtain side-impact air bags and curtain side-impact/rollover air bags are different mainly
in their sensing systems: curtain side-impact air bags are activated primarily in a lateral
collision, whereas curtain side-impact/rollover air bags are activated in either a lateral
collision or a rollover. Since a rollover event lasts longer than a side-impact event, curtain
side-impact/rollover air bags are designed to remain inflated longer than curtain sideimpact
air bags.
Side-impact air bags and curtain side-impact air bags, along with the use of seat belts,
help to cushion the impact force to the head and chest of the front occupants. In most
NISSAN vehicles, curtain side-impact air bags also help to cushion the impact force to the
head of rear outboard-seated occupants. These air bags can help save lives and reduce
serious injury. However, an inflating side-impact air bag, curtain side-impact air bag, or
curtain side-impact/rollover air bag may cause abrasions or other injuries.
Seat belts should be worn correctly and vehicle occupants seated upright. Side impact air
bags, curtain side-impact air bags, and curtain side-impact/rollover air bags inflate quickly
in order to help protect the occupants. The force of an air bag inflating can increase the
risk of injury if the occupant is too close to, or is against these air bag modules during
inflation.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2018 16:06
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notyper wrote:
And I guess that's why so many automakers put non-defeatable stability control on their cars today.

As tire grip goes up (and it has gone up a lot over the last 20 years) suspension design and center of gravity become ever more important. 10% less grip and this would probably never have happened. As it stands the roll center and Cg are way too far apart on this car.

What crossed my mind was how beneficial future electric cars will be to stability because designed right, they'll have all their weight 20-24" off the ground.

SC



Trying to wrap my head around the idea that too much grip is a problem. I had never thought of that before. I always thought it was just that the center of gravity was too high and it was almost just a fait accompli for certain SUVs/trucks.

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-06-2018 18:30
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Think about the vector force being applied to the center of gravity during a cornering maneuver. At some critical force level, you'll lever the inside wheels off the ground.

The choice is to reduce the force (less grip) or reduce the Cg.

Moving the roll center of the suspension closer to the Cg also helps because as the vehicle rolls the Cg will usually increase in height (unless the Cg is at the same height or below the roll center) , reducing the force required to lift the inside wheels off the ground. This effect gets worse as the Cg gets further above the roll center

Alternatively you could make the suspension stiffer too, but that won't fly for the average consumer.

SC

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2018 14:47
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The Wrangler actually uses pretty shit OEM tires for that reason.
JonBoy
Profile for JonBoy
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2018 14:54
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My in-laws just bought a Kicks yesterday. Talk about timing.

On a side note, on the "extreme" test where it nearly rolled, his turn-in was WAY too sharp to actually straighten the car. I feel he was intentionally trying to get the car up on its side, rather than actually complete the test. Watch the angle of his tires and you'll see that if the car had stuck, he'd have steered right into the INSIDE cones during the swerve transition.

Is the car unstable? Yes, more than it should be. But it looks, to me, like they did their best to exacerbate it not only by turning off stability control but also by overdriving the car.


Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-07-2018 17:00
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notyper wrote:
Think about the vector force being applied to the center of gravity during a cornering maneuver. At some critical force level, you'll lever the inside wheels off the ground.

The choice is to reduce the force (less grip) or reduce the Cg.

Moving the roll center of the suspension closer to the Cg also helps because as the vehicle rolls the Cg will usually increase in height (unless the Cg is at the same height or below the roll center) , reducing the force required to lift the inside wheels off the ground. This effect gets worse as the Cg gets further above the roll center

Alternatively you could make the suspension stiffer too, but that won't fly for the average consumer.

SC



Thanks - that is basically what I thought you were talking about but I had just never put two and two together.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2018 09:38
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JonBoy wrote:
My in-laws just bought a Kicks yesterday. Talk about timing.

On a side note, on the "extreme" test where it nearly rolled, his turn-in was WAY too sharp to actually straighten the car. I feel he was intentionally trying to get the car up on its side, rather than actually complete the test. Watch the angle of his tires and you'll see that if the car had stuck, he'd have steered right into the INSIDE cones during the swerve transition.

Is the car unstable? Yes, more than it should be. But it looks, to me, like they did their best to exacerbate it not only by turning off stability control but also by overdriving the car.




The ISO 3888-2 procedure defines the test length and cars are typically pushed repeatedly until something like the above happens. The thing is though, most 'regular' cars seem to top out at 80 km/h or so. And the test has many issues- the steering wheel angle (a jerk to initiate the roll) is not realistic for most driving scenarios unless you're a stupid dumbass, the brake pedal is not used (who does that?), and it's also completely unrealistic to test the vehicle without its stability control on as the number of real world scenarios where that happens is almost zero. It's just one part of the overall handing of the car.

So in other words, I wouldn't condemn the purchase of a car just because it failed one particular test.

RSX
Profile for RSX
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2018 10:52
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Fitdad wrote:
notyper wrote:
And I guess that's why so many automakers put non-defeatable stability control on their cars today.

As tire grip goes up (and it has gone up a lot over the last 20 years) suspension design and center of gravity become ever more important. 10% less grip and this would probably never have happened. As it stands the roll center and Cg are way too far apart on this car.

What crossed my mind was how beneficial future electric cars will be to stability because designed right, they'll have all their weight 20-24" off the ground.

SC



Trying to wrap my head around the idea that too much grip is a problem. I had never thought of that before. I always thought it was just that the center of gravity was too high and it was almost just a fait accompli for certain SUVs/trucks.



Here's a scenario for you; imagine in winter you see a patch of ice in a parking lot, you run until you reach the ice so that you can slide on your two feet while standing. But the ice patch is only 4ft long and you suddenly hit the raw, uncovered asphalt again. What happens? You want to fall forward because of the grip you sudden have instead of continuing to slide as you did on the ice.
Bottom line is, sometimes it's better for a car to slide with less grip than it is to grip hard and roll over.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-08-2018 12:16
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Here's a simple illustration:



The roll center (which moves around as the suspension moves), shows the point around which the suspension will rotate.

The distance between those two points creates a moment (leverage) arm when you're going into a turn. The larger the distance (as on SUVs), the less sideways force it takes to tip the car as you overcome the car's normal force to the road

What you'd find on a lot of off-roaders is that even though they have extremely high CoGs, they compensate with suspension that has high roll centers, keeping the distance between the two points very small. So despite extreme slopes and high speed desert running, they don't tend to tip.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-12-2018 16:49
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Just another Super-Useless-Vehicle the world doesn't need. Honestly, if I'm seeing even more of these disgusting pests on the road, i'm getting like Tony and declare Vendetta on them. :)
eneka
Profile for eneka
Re: "Moose Test". Nissan Kicks fail    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-13-2018 17:30
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here's a more standardized test that shows more of its instability.



 
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