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TOV Forums > Strictly Technical > > Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor

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Hondatalover
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03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2018 00:07
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Becoming ever so frustrated with the Vigors electrical bugs I'm thinking about pulling the entire under-dash wiring harness out of a 2003 TL and merging it into the Vigors.

My goal is to upgrade the vigor to the intermittent wipers with adjustable speed settings since they currently don't work at all due to a higher amp fuse being in place of the 30A spot, I believe a wire or some of the fuse box melted.

But the TL uses a multiplex system that consists of a separate CPU and two modules that intercept or modifies the power inputs on the two under dash fuse boxes that your seats, lights or alarm is connected to. It can control everything. The interior security light dimmer, auto/on off head lights, alarm and keyless entry, memory seating, windshield wipers (speed sensitive and brake pedal delay) and some other stuff. It looks like with the way it's designed if it detects faults or unresponsive features it can ignore them which is good as the Vigor doesn't have everything this system supports/ looks for.

It's an added bonus if I can figure it out. I'm unsure if it will need the key ignition and immobilizer feedback to operate the alarm and keyless properly.


Essentially I have to approach this like an aftermarket keyless start and alarm system install.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2018 20:25
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There comes a time in every project when you got to think:

Is it worth it?

superchg2
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Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 00:11
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TonyEX wrote:
There comes a time in every project when you got to think:

Is it worth it?


The same thing occurred to me.

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 17:14
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I would isolate and repair the problems with the documented OEM system that is currently in the Vigor.

Looking at this schematic and the one from the Vigor, I don't see how this is going to work but I guess we will see.


Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 06:52
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So the wipers don't work at all or just the intermittent setting doesn't work? What are the other electrical problems?
Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 16:29
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The wipers do not work at all. The washer fluid pump does. I can hear the wiper relays in the passenger side kick panel click when I actuate the stalk.

I have tested the wiper motor, it worked but there is no power in the harness going to it. I tested the intermittent wiper relay, it is in proper function. Swapped it for another relay just to be sure. Still no power going to the wiper motor.

The fuse for the wiper motor is under the dash, supposed to be a 30amp ATC. I suspect the wiring from the fuse box to the relay has melted and burned because Honda found a 50amp ATC fuse in its place. I never checked the fuses in this car thoroughly and I should have after I bought it.

I have looked at the wiring between the relay and motor in the engine bay but haven't found anything melted or discolored yet. It could be the integrated control unit/ fuse box or some wire that I can't get to easily that got ruined by the larger fuse or something else.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2018 02:13
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It sounds to me like you might have one or more ground issues. Unfortunately, Honda products from this era really liked to use several key grounding points and a problem at any one of them could lead to all sorts of random electrical issues.

I would honestly start cleaning those and looking for corrosion based on all of the issues you are having.

It's possible you are having wiring issues at that age, but honestly, most Honda harnesses from that era were pretty bulletproof if they weren't chewed or eaten by rodents, or poorly repaired. Ground issues are much more likely IMO, and the main symptom of them is widespread and rampant issues.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2018 07:00
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There could be so many continuity issues on such a dinosaur, Dillon.

If you're thinking of pulling the loom, the first thing to do is check every wire for continuity - do the grounding points first.

If not that, you've got to look for dry soldered joints in every FRED - pull the covers and carefully re-melt the solder. Check for leaky capacitors/burned tracks. Think PGM-FI main relays and multiply it by the number of little boxes.

I think if you try to Frankenstein it, you'll likely create more issues than you'd solve and suicide will seem painless...

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2018 08:59
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Nice MASH reference from Nick there. Owe and Nick are probably right.

Does it look like someone has tried to repair something related in some manner in the past and possibly damaged the harness or the relay panel?

And you've replaced the fuse with the proper rated one? If the correct fuses routinely blew and a person replaced it with a higher rated one resulting in the next trip melting a wire I'd think it would point to a problem with the wiper motor. I'd just try to get fused power from the relay to the motor and keep it as simple as possible. Worst case is you spend a year swapping in a newer harness and then the first time you run the wipers on high they go poof.

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2018 17:56
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If I could make sense of this it would help. But this is foriegn to me..

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2018 17:21
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Hondatalover wrote:


If I could make sense of this it would help. But this is foriegn to me..


I'm not an EE but I'll ask. Is there just one combined wiper system relay which you replaced or are there separate relays for the three circuits? If there are separate relays do you know which one you replaced?

How did you get the wiper motor to work when you tested it? Jump it directly with a 12v source?

If you've tested the motor to see if it works you should be able to check for continuity for the grounds fairly easily.

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2018 17:48
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There is a intermittent wiper relay, a low speed and high speed relay. None of the click unless I use the sprayer function but idk which relay it clicks with.

Yes, I put a 12V source right into the motor. I have a second motor I tested as well.

I have no power going into the intermittent relay.

Here is a trouble shoot. I've checked everything except for a melted wire or bad ICU. Everything else on this car works but the wipers, other things use the 302 ground and because I don't have any other electrical issues I haven't messed with the grounds yet.


Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-22-2018 17:50
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Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 07:09
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Hondatalover wrote:
There is a intermittent wiper relay, a low speed and high speed relay. None of the click unless I use the sprayer function but idk which relay it clicks with.

Yes, I put a 12V source right into the motor. I have a second motor I tested as well.

I have no power going into the intermittent relay.

Here is a trouble shoot. I've checked everything except for a melted wire or bad ICU. Everything else on this car works but the wipers, other things use the 302 ground and because I don't have any other electrical issues I haven't messed with the grounds yet.



OK, two more questions. When you try the washer function and hear a relay click does the wiper motor actually run or you just hear the click? And do you mean you have no current on the switch side of the intermittent relay or on the side supplying current to the wiper motor?

The trouble shooting guide seems logical in pointing to the switch and then the park control device on the motor.

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 11:54
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No power on the switch side/ before relay. Wiper motor has no power what so ever.

The washer/ sprayer does run with the use of the stall. With it one relay clicks.

Auth the stalk switched to intermittent, low and high there is no functi9n or relay clicks.

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 12:14
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Hondatalover
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Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 12:16
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Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 12:22
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This is how they USED to be.


Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 13:15
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First, I'm reading the schematic as the motor, park device, and relays are energized and the grounds are switched. Again, I'm not an EE so YMMV. It might explain why you're seeing what you get with your meter.

I was thinking the park control device has failed or is working intermittently but that second video points to a failing motor. I have no idea what the Honda motors look like inside but the old British ones I've worked on over the years used a gearbox lubricant grease which turned to goo with age. There looks to be a thermal protect switch in the motor which might have finally given up. They're usually not very accurate but when they fail they usually fail open. The current draw from the motor running slowly might explain the over-rated fuse being used. And there are a couple of things in the circuit within the motor which might be out of spec due to age. My skills with reading schematics dates back 30 years though so keep that in mind.

I'd set the switch to LO and gently try to move the wiper arms through their arcs to see if the motor sparks to life a little. I'd probably replace the motor assembly including the park control device as the next step. There being a couple of generic replacements available may be a sign.

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 15:32
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I've already replaced the motor assembly and even tested both units with a direct 12V source and each work flawless. I have no power or ground readings in the harness at the motor and the intermittent relay. Every wire is dead unless I'm not testing them right.

The relay tested to be good.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 16:01
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Start off looking for power out of the ignition switch and chase it around until you find where you lose it.

It's the only way

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 17:55
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Going to have a shop probe it and sniff it. Basically they can send a signal through the wire and where ever there is a break in the insulation they can pick it up with a device.
Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 19:43
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Nick GravesX wrote:
Start off looking for power out of the ignition switch and chase it around until you find where you lose it.

It's the only way


I'm reading it correctly that the full current for the wiper motor passes through the ignition switch? It makes me think of how hot the keys for our CRV and Accord would get during a drive.

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-23-2018 22:37
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Grace141 wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
Start off looking for power out of the ignition switch and chase it around until you find where you lose it.

It's the only way


I'm reading it correctly that the full current for the wiper motor passes through the ignition switch? It makes me think of how hot the keys for our CRV and Accord would get during a drive.


Yupp and good lord the key will burn your hand when you take them out! I'm surprised they don't glow lol


Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2018 14:58
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Shop called and said the guy doing the testing thinks it was "a relay" and they ordered one. I told him I didn't have power at the relay when I tested it but if it works I dont care. But I also told him that I won't pay for it if it didn't fix the problem.


Oh, and the coolant is dissapear8ng again but this time there was a large amount of steam coming from under the good. No spots left on the ground but there is some cuddling under the intake manifold on the block. Tje area around the head gasket looked fine and the hoses around that said area were dripping. They are going to do a pressure test.

While on a test drive the car didnt bog or do any of the stalling things it was doing either. Of course.

I'm going to have grey hair at 22.


Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2018 15:02
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Wow. So many typing errors. ^

Shop called and said the guy doing the testing thinks it was "a relay" and they ordered one. I told him I didn't have power at the relay when I tested it but if it works I dont care. But I also told him that I won't pay for it if it didn't fix the problem.


Oh, and the coolant is disappearing again but this time there was a large amount of steam coming from under the good. No spots left on the ground but there is some pooling under the intake manifold on the block. The area around the head gasket looked fine and the hoses around that said area that come off the thermostat were not dripping or looked bad. They are going to do a pressure test and try to find something.

While on the test drive with a guy inntje shop the car didn't bog or do any of the stalling things it was doing either. Of course. So they don't want to look at the fuel pump until the symptoms come back.

I'm going to have grey hair at 22.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2018 15:24
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Grace141 wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
Start off looking for power out of the ignition switch and chase it around until you find where you lose it.

It's the only way


I'm reading it correctly that the full current for the wiper motor passes through the ignition switch? It makes me think of how hot the keys for our CRV and Accord would get during a drive.



I think you've missed the grn/blk to the motor from the fuse board - the red/ylw only supplies the ign>wiper switch, which fires the two relays.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2018 15:43
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Actually, you're right - according the that diagram, they're both wired via the big cable on the ign switch. I'd have thought there might be a main relay involved...but I was reading it sideways.

Just for clarity; the relays (all three) ground the motor when they are fired. That keeps the load from burning them, as the motor ate it.

A quick way might be to put a 'hot' wire onto the outputs from the wiper switch plug onto the the relevant points. If it works, then the relays/motor are fine and it's upwind from there.

You can take that ad absurdum and fire the relays with a hot wire.

Of course, if the ignition switch is old/weak, it might give rise to all sorts of electrical problems.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2018 15:54
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Of course, if you want to check the 'load' side, you can pull the relays and short the switched side of the relay (not the switching side-you'll blow a fuse!) to deck. If the wipers don't want to know, then there is a power supply problem to the wiper motor - that's the other red/yel to the motor.

There's a few things that could go wrong there; fuse(?) broken wire or more likely, a corroded/burnt relay box.

Dillon, do you get a wipe if you squirt?

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 03 Multiplex in Vigor    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-24-2018 15:59
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red/yel to the relay box - sorry, I am typing bollocks this eve...

 
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