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TOV Forums > Today's Reading Links > > Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl

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honduh
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2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 12:44
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https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/17/2019-toyota-supra-reportedly-getting-a-four-cylinder-model/

Indeed, I wonder what this will do to the 86.

I hope for success with this model to convince Honda to build a competitor or a Cayman-fighter (i.e., baby-NSX).

Jovian8
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Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 13:26
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Exciting news indeed. Call it "Celica".

Who cares about the 86? It's a Subaru anyway.

JeffX
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Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 13:41
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Jovian8 wrote:
Exciting news indeed. Call it "Celica".

Who cares about the 86? It's a Subaru anyway.



Well, this "Supra" is mostly a BMW Z4 hardtop.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 15:28
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After seeing the spy shot of the Supra's interior the Japanese press stated it was too much BMW. LOL
lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 15:32
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Pathetic.
rev2damoon
Profile for rev2damoon
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 15:42
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Could be pathetic...or it could be genius if the more expensive 6 cyl, big brother Supra creates a halo for the little brother, thereby attracting younger enthusiasts with shallower pockets...

They are just 'adding' a 4 cyl version...right?

Power Of Dreams
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Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 18:10
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Why does this thing even exist?!

The best Japanese automakers will always be Honda and Toyota in my humble opinion, but Toyota should be damn ashamed of themselves for making a flagship car with a legendary name that's powered by another company's engine and essentially a rebadge of another company's car.

If I want a BMW Z4, I'll buy a BMW Z4. Last thing I want is something that drives like a Toyota and has maintenance factors of a BMW.

Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 19:21
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I’m not sure why this is a surprise since the BMW Z5 (or whatever it’s called) uses the typical BMW 2.0t as a base with the optional 3.0t.
honduh
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Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 19:58
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I’m not sure about the quick judgements here. Powertrain-wise both the 6cyl and 4cyl (yes it seems both will be available) have proven to be decent, strong motors (disappointed about the potential lack of manuals). There are also reports that the Supra will be tuned differently than the Z4, and it has been seen driving around with a 911 as a benchmark. I personally also prefer the styling, so far we can tell through this never ending tease, than the Z4. So I see more distinctions here than the Toyobaru twins. I think I’d wait to drive this thing before coming to any conclusions.

I personally celebrate another sporty car for once that is at least within the realm of possible ownership. I think what’s truly sad is the state of the automobile market, that it takes these sort of collaborations to justify developing more sports cars instead of yet another truck. So when is Honda going to release a new sports car?

Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 20:39
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honduh wrote:
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/17/2019-toyota-supra-reportedly-getting-a-four-cylinder-model/

Indeed, I wonder what this will do to the 86.

I hope for success with this model to convince Honda to build a competitor or a Cayman-fighter (i.e., baby-NSX).


It will do nothing to the 86 since it will be the bimmer 2.0T or probably the Lexus 2.0T, and the amenities of the Supra will probably be Lexus grade to not disregard the BMW version. So... Different price bracket.

JeffX
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Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 21:19
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Midi_Amp wrote:
honduh wrote:
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/17/2019-toyota-supra-reportedly-getting-a-four-cylinder-model/

Indeed, I wonder what this will do to the 86.

I hope for success with this model to convince Honda to build a competitor or a Cayman-fighter (i.e., baby-NSX).


It will do nothing to the 86 since it will be the bimmer 2.0T or probably the Lexus 2.0T, and the amenities of the Supra will probably be Lexus grade to not disregard the BMW version. So... Different price bracket.



according to some documents that R&T obtained it looks like it will have exclusively BMW engines with 8AT ZF transmissions.

honduh
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Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 23:19
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Midi_Amp wrote:
honduh wrote:
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/17/2019-toyota-supra-reportedly-getting-a-four-cylinder-model/

Indeed, I wonder what this will do to the 86.

I hope for success with this model to convince Honda to build a competitor or a Cayman-fighter (i.e., baby-NSX).


It will do nothing to the 86 since it will be the bimmer 2.0T or probably the Lexus 2.0T, and the amenities of the Supra will probably be Lexus grade to not disregard the BMW version. So... Different price bracket.

Regarding Lexus grade amenities “to not disregard BMW”, I was laughing at Rolledansx’s earlier comment. Have you seen the interior spy shots? Pretty much straight from BMW parts bin.

As for the 86, it’s getting long in tooth and you can’t do much to bump up performance. Then you have the following quote from the chief Supra engineer that I find amusing and curious. So in this context I can see this “lower” grade model being of greater interest, especially to tuners. The Supra being a bit upmarket not withstanding.

The Supra’s chief engineer also added that, for customers planning to swap in a 2JZ engine, “please buy the four-cylinder. It will be cheaper.”

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/07/2019-toyota-supra-offered-262hp-four-cylinder-engine-well/



Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 23:41
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honduh wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
honduh wrote:
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/07/17/2019-toyota-supra-reportedly-getting-a-four-cylinder-model/

Indeed, I wonder what this will do to the 86.

I hope for success with this model to convince Honda to build a competitor or a Cayman-fighter (i.e., baby-NSX).


It will do nothing to the 86 since it will be the bimmer 2.0T or probably the Lexus 2.0T, and the amenities of the Supra will probably be Lexus grade to not disregard the BMW version. So... Different price bracket.

Regarding Lexus grade amenities “to not disregard BMW”, I was laughing at Rolledansx’s earlier comment. Have you seen the interior spy shots? Pretty much straight from BMW parts bin.

As for the 86, it’s getting long in tooth and you can’t do much to bump up performance. Then you have the following quote from the chief Supra engineer that I find amusing and curious. So in this context I can see this “lower” grade model being of greater interest, especially to tuners. The Supra being a bit upmarket not withstanding.

The Supra’s chief engineer also added that, for customers planning to swap in a 2JZ engine, “please buy the four-cylinder. It will be cheaper.”

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/07/2019-toyota-supra-offered-262hp-four-cylinder-engine-well/




Wow, totally missed the carscoop post. 262 horsepower for the baseline Supra... Wow, how time have changed. The Supra and GT-R was the muscle cars of the Japanese auto hero quartet back in the 90's. To make it "nimble" is kind of history shaming the name... Same can be said to NSX, but at least Honda can cower behind the sport experimental moniker, but the Supra was the literal big brother.

The NSX development I followed with interest, and the next GT-R with the "world's fastest brick" quoted from Nissan design boss also interests me... Somehow, when Toyota announced collaboration with BMW for the next gen Supra, I totally lost interest. Perhaps this is why Toyota also parallels the GR Super Sport development to peak interest to the brand.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: 2019 BMW Celica GTS    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2018 00:15
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Yawn....

I remember the last Twin Turbo Supra. At its time it was a Monster Car.

In a very, VERY good way.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2018 03:59
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Power Of Dreams wrote:
Why does this thing even exist?!

The best Japanese automakers will always be Honda and Toyota in my humble opinion, but Toyota should be damn ashamed of themselves for making a flagship car with a legendary name that's powered by another company's engine and essentially a rebadge of another company's car.

If I want a BMW Z4, I'll buy a BMW Z4. Last thing I want is something that drives like a Toyota and has maintenance factors of a BMW.



:D

I share your prejudices...

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2018 07:16
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It didn't seem like Toyota fans were angry about the FR-S/BRZ/86 when it was launched with an obvious Subaru drivetrain. I don't see why a BMW Supra would be a problem. My guess would be a 2.0T Supra using turbo tech bought from BMW would be a big step forward for Toyota's turbo plans. Which points to the Camry and probably the RAV4 and Highlander here in the US.

Toyota sold a turbo-4 version of the Hilux pickup here during the mid-80s but I assumed at the time that Nissan's Hardbody V6 pushed Toyota to a real V6. I could see a 2020 Tacoma being offered with a turbo-4 option.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2018 10:38
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Grace141 wrote:
It didn't seem like Toyota fans were angry about the FR-S/BRZ/86 when it was launched with an obvious Subaru drivetrain. I don't see why a BMW Supra would be a problem. My guess would be a 2.0T Supra using turbo tech bought from BMW would be a big step forward for Toyota's turbo plans. Which points to the Camry and probably the RAV4 and Highlander here in the US.

Toyota sold a turbo-4 version of the Hilux pickup here during the mid-80s but I assumed at the time that Nissan's Hardbody V6 pushed Toyota to a real V6. I could see a 2020 Tacoma being offered with a turbo-4 option.



The BRZ/86 was a new sports car, something that had never been done, no legendary name so I don't think people cared too much because it came with a low price.

The Supra is a legendary name/car, it never had a lame 4 cylinder nor was it just essentially a BMW rebadge. This won't be the car the Supra was back in the 90's that could take it to more expensive cars, this will be a lower end car, it will likely lose Supra fans because they don't want a lower end car and it will likely be too expensive for non Supra fans who want a sports car, they can just get a Muscle car that has more power and performance. This car is not a looker either based on the spy shots, its proportions are not sexy at all.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2018 12:53
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lexusgs wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
It didn't seem like Toyota fans were angry about the FR-S/BRZ/86 when it was launched with an obvious Subaru drivetrain. I don't see why a BMW Supra would be a problem. My guess would be a 2.0T Supra using turbo tech bought from BMW would be a big step forward for Toyota's turbo plans. Which points to the Camry and probably the RAV4 and Highlander here in the US.

Toyota sold a turbo-4 version of the Hilux pickup here during the mid-80s but I assumed at the time that Nissan's Hardbody V6 pushed Toyota to a real V6. I could see a 2020 Tacoma being offered with a turbo-4 option.



The BRZ/86 was a new sports car, something that had never been done, no legendary name so I don't think people cared too much because it came with a low price.

The Supra is a legendary name/car, it never had a lame 4 cylinder nor was it just essentially a BMW rebadge. This won't be the car the Supra was back in the 90's that could take it to more expensive cars, this will be a lower end car, it will likely lose Supra fans because they don't want a lower end car and it will likely be too expensive for non Supra fans who want a sports car, they can just get a Muscle car that has more power and performance. This car is not a looker either based on the spy shots, its proportions are not sexy at all.


I disagree some there. First, Toyota pitched their FR-S version as the new RWD Corolla GT-S, which it wasn't but Toyota apparently thought bringing its average customer age down meant reaching out to the drift crowd. That may be cool but I don't see a lot of young and upwardly mobile folks driving new Toyotas these days and I suspect a lot of the TRD bits for the cars collect dust on shelves.

And "Supra" is a well-known Toyota badge but it started as a badge-and-big block option for the Celica hatch, evolved slightly into the same but with a sleek looking front clip and box flares, and then became somewhat of a luxury GT. It's only until the final version that it became a mid-priced performance GT and practically no one bought into it because, like the RX-7, it became an expensive car for an economy car brand. Supras were once a common sight on the roads but by the time the final version went on sale here in the US we thought of Toyota as the maker of FWD economy sedans. Which is exactly what Toyota had become.

It's a similar question for Toyota as for Acura. Who is the customer they want to reach with this new car? I'd bet Toyota would be very happy to pull in buyers who are fascinated by the BMW-sourced platform for the Supra. I'd certainly be interested in such a car as long as it leaves the Fast-and-Furious vibe to the 86.

I have no idea who Supra fans are, how many of them are out there, or how much money they're willing to spend on a new car. I suspect Toyota doesn't either. And Toyota needs to consider that their original Supra buyers or at least car fans who recognize the badge and have some real money in their pockets wouldn't lower their average customer age much at all if they bought a new Toyota.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-18-2018 15:25
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Grace141 wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
It didn't seem like Toyota fans were angry about the FR-S/BRZ/86 when it was launched with an obvious Subaru drivetrain. I don't see why a BMW Supra would be a problem. My guess would be a 2.0T Supra using turbo tech bought from BMW would be a big step forward for Toyota's turbo plans. Which points to the Camry and probably the RAV4 and Highlander here in the US.

Toyota sold a turbo-4 version of the Hilux pickup here during the mid-80s but I assumed at the time that Nissan's Hardbody V6 pushed Toyota to a real V6. I could see a 2020 Tacoma being offered with a turbo-4 option.



The BRZ/86 was a new sports car, something that had never been done, no legendary name so I don't think people cared too much because it came with a low price.

The Supra is a legendary name/car, it never had a lame 4 cylinder nor was it just essentially a BMW rebadge. This won't be the car the Supra was back in the 90's that could take it to more expensive cars, this will be a lower end car, it will likely lose Supra fans because they don't want a lower end car and it will likely be too expensive for non Supra fans who want a sports car, they can just get a Muscle car that has more power and performance. This car is not a looker either based on the spy shots, its proportions are not sexy at all.


I disagree some there. First, Toyota pitched their FR-S version as the new RWD Corolla GT-S, which it wasn't but Toyota apparently thought bringing its average customer age down meant reaching out to the drift crowd. That may be cool but I don't see a lot of young and upwardly mobile folks driving new Toyotas these days and I suspect a lot of the TRD bits for the cars collect dust on shelves.

And "Supra" is a well-known Toyota badge but it started as a badge-and-big block option for the Celica hatch, evolved slightly into the same but with a sleek looking front clip and box flares, and then became somewhat of a luxury GT. It's only until the final version that it became a mid-priced performance GT and practically no one bought into it because, like the RX-7, it became an expensive car for an economy car brand. Supras were once a common sight on the roads but by the time the final version went on sale here in the US we thought of Toyota as the maker of FWD economy sedans. Which is exactly what Toyota had become.

It's a similar question for Toyota as for Acura. Who is the customer they want to reach with this new car? I'd bet Toyota would be very happy to pull in buyers who are fascinated by the BMW-sourced platform for the Supra. I'd certainly be interested in such a car as long as it leaves the Fast-and-Furious vibe to the 86.

I have no idea who Supra fans are, how many of them are out there, or how much money they're willing to spend on a new car. I suspect Toyota doesn't either. And Toyota needs to consider that their original Supra buyers or at least car fans who recognize the badge and have some real money in their pockets wouldn't lower their average customer age much at all if they bought a new Toyota.

Grace, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I suspect the positioning of the Supra/Z4 will be reminiscent of the A80 Supra/SC300. It is not well known that the SC300 shared many components with the Supra and was geared more as a luxury GT car. I won’t pretend to know ultimately who will end up being a target audience for the new Supra either. But they are supposedly benchmarking a Cayman, so it seems this will be more of a “serious” car and thus would be aimed not necessarily at the younger crowd. I just hope for success to convince Honda to wake up and find some way to bring back more excitement. I was looking at a render of an RX-9 based on the vision concept, and man does it look good. That also needs to come back.

And reflecting back on the over-engineering that went into that SC300 (see door hinges), man do I miss the days of excessive engineering in Japanese cars, especially the sporty ones.

Power Of Dreams
Profile for Power Of Dreams
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-19-2018 01:30
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honduh wrote:
I’m not sure about the quick judgements here. Powertrain-wise both the 6cyl and 4cyl (yes it seems both will be available) have proven to be decent, strong motors (disappointed about the potential lack of manuals). There are also reports that the Supra will be tuned differently than the Z4, and it has been seen driving around with a 911 as a benchmark. I personally also prefer the styling, so far we can tell through this never ending tease, than the Z4. So I see more distinctions here than the Toyobaru twins. I think I’d wait to drive this thing before coming to any conclusions.

I personally celebrate another sporty car for once that is at least within the realm of possible ownership. I think what’s truly sad is the state of the automobile market, that it takes these sort of collaborations to justify developing more sports cars instead of yet another truck. So when is Honda going to release a new sports car?



I'm glad you see the silver lining in this cloud, because all I see is gloom and rain.

The reason flagship cars exist, or at least used to, is that every car company wanted to take a whack at building the greatest car in the world or at least one that would leave a lasting impact on automotive history done their way.

You got Mazda sticking with their rotary, GM with their pushrod V8, Honda getting more results with less, Toyota building a car that could handle twice its stock power, Nissan dropping all the technology they could, Ford bringing back Henry II's dream of beating Ferrari at its own game... I want some damn history and authenticity with my sports cars!

At the time of the original NSX's release in 1990, Chevrolet was in the planning stages of the C5 project, and the quantum leaps of refinement and quality that each succeeding Corvette had to the point that the C7 is a world-class car makes it a more rightful successor to the original NSX in my humble opinion than the new hybrid car coming out of Ohio. Doesn't mean I want Honda and GM to team up and rebadge a Corvette as a NSX, not even a Corvette chassis with a Honda motor, although I wish Honda would buy some GM automatics and A/C components since those really aren't their forte.

Anyways, the current NSX is as much its history and story as the car itself. It's designed by American Honda engineers and built by the best people who built my Accord Coupe from the Marysville Plant. It features the latest Honda technology and instead of nodding to the past, it's Honda's vision of the future, not to mention a demonstration of how much confidence Honda has in their American workers and engineers.

I still lust over a LC500 and I'll probably buy a used one a few years down the road assuming they hold up well and I can handle maintenance. Obviously, it's more Soarer than Supra, but I'm getting Toyota's best engineering in this car. The 86, as other posters aptly-mentioned was not a replacement for any other car, and besides, Toyota does own a chunk of Subaru which gives it some familial value along with feeling like an authentic Japanese car. Hell, I don't think there's a car on the market today that feels more Japanese than the Toyobaru twins.

A BMW engine with a BMW chassis will always be a German car no matter which way you slice it. The closest analogy I can think of is the Infiniti QX30, which is basically a Nissan-styled body on top of a Mercedes GLA. It actually works for Infiniti because of how Nissan FWD products so aptly represent the feel of a mediocre Japanese car crossed with a mediocre European car of indiscriminate origin, certainly a nod to their other parent, Renault.

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-19-2018 07:04
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honduh wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
Grace141 wrote:
It didn't seem like Toyota fans were angry about the FR-S/BRZ/86 when it was launched with an obvious Subaru drivetrain. I don't see why a BMW Supra would be a problem. My guess would be a 2.0T Supra using turbo tech bought from BMW would be a big step forward for Toyota's turbo plans. Which points to the Camry and probably the RAV4 and Highlander here in the US.

Toyota sold a turbo-4 version of the Hilux pickup here during the mid-80s but I assumed at the time that Nissan's Hardbody V6 pushed Toyota to a real V6. I could see a 2020 Tacoma being offered with a turbo-4 option.



The BRZ/86 was a new sports car, something that had never been done, no legendary name so I don't think people cared too much because it came with a low price.

The Supra is a legendary name/car, it never had a lame 4 cylinder nor was it just essentially a BMW rebadge. This won't be the car the Supra was back in the 90's that could take it to more expensive cars, this will be a lower end car, it will likely lose Supra fans because they don't want a lower end car and it will likely be too expensive for non Supra fans who want a sports car, they can just get a Muscle car that has more power and performance. This car is not a looker either based on the spy shots, its proportions are not sexy at all.


I disagree some there. First, Toyota pitched their FR-S version as the new RWD Corolla GT-S, which it wasn't but Toyota apparently thought bringing its average customer age down meant reaching out to the drift crowd. That may be cool but I don't see a lot of young and upwardly mobile folks driving new Toyotas these days and I suspect a lot of the TRD bits for the cars collect dust on shelves.

And "Supra" is a well-known Toyota badge but it started as a badge-and-big block option for the Celica hatch, evolved slightly into the same but with a sleek looking front clip and box flares, and then became somewhat of a luxury GT. It's only until the final version that it became a mid-priced performance GT and practically no one bought into it because, like the RX-7, it became an expensive car for an economy car brand. Supras were once a common sight on the roads but by the time the final version went on sale here in the US we thought of Toyota as the maker of FWD economy sedans. Which is exactly what Toyota had become.

It's a similar question for Toyota as for Acura. Who is the customer they want to reach with this new car? I'd bet Toyota would be very happy to pull in buyers who are fascinated by the BMW-sourced platform for the Supra. I'd certainly be interested in such a car as long as it leaves the Fast-and-Furious vibe to the 86.

I have no idea who Supra fans are, how many of them are out there, or how much money they're willing to spend on a new car. I suspect Toyota doesn't either. And Toyota needs to consider that their original Supra buyers or at least car fans who recognize the badge and have some real money in their pockets wouldn't lower their average customer age much at all if they bought a new Toyota.

Grace, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I suspect the positioning of the Supra/Z4 will be reminiscent of the A80 Supra/SC300. It is not well known that the SC300 shared many components with the Supra and was geared more as a luxury GT car. I won’t pretend to know ultimately who will end up being a target audience for the new Supra either. But they are supposedly benchmarking a Cayman, so it seems this will be more of a “serious” car and thus would be aimed not necessarily at the younger crowd. I just hope for success to convince Honda to wake up and find some way to bring back more excitement. I was looking at a render of an RX-9 based on the vision concept, and man does it look good. That also needs to come back.

And reflecting back on the over-engineering that went into that SC300 (see door hinges), man do I miss the days of excessive engineering in Japanese cars, especially the sporty ones.


I thought the SC300 was a wonderful car at the time. It seemed obvious Toyota had the Mercedes and BMW GT cars in mind and the V8 made good sense because of the LS also being a wonderful car. The 6-cylinder was pure Toyota though.

Maybe this new Supra is somewhere between the current 86 and a new SC coupe with the sport factor dialed up a bit. That would be pretty cool. I do like the RC right up to the point I see the grille on the front on the thing.

I think the Mazda RX renders over the past 20-some years have mostly been a PR exercise but they're fun to look at. They did do a very nice RX-7 version in the late 90's, I think, which more or less turned into the Lotus Elise.


 
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