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TOV Forums > Type R > > Re: Such a damn nice car

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TonyEX
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Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 18:36
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notyper wrote:
Grace141 wrote:

The reality is there have been multiple times more Acuras sold with SH-AWD than all of the Hondas sold with limited slips combined. The ATTS concept evolved nicely into SH-AWD.

Tony is correct. A limited slip diff only reacts to the loss of grip on one side of the axle to which it's applied. Intelligent systems like ATTS and SH-AWD are designed to take full advantage of grip at all times, not just under power-on situations regardless of the wisdom of the Internet. SH-AWD doesn't really replace a limited slip because it's used for completely different reasons. ATTS and SH-AWD do add weight but more importantly they add cost which wouldn't work with the intent of the Si which is a cheap, fun sporty car.



I'll start knitting a winter sweater while you explain to me how ATTS as fitted to the Prelude SH did anything to manage grip during anything but throttle on situations. You can also tell me how it dealt with wheelspin in a straight line with varying traction from wheel to wheel....

In the modern world, the only difference between SH-AWD (which is irrelevant to the conversation about a FWD car) or ATTS and modern electronically controlled limited slip diffs is the ability to overspeed a wheel by a couple percent.

SC



The relevance is in HOW the car reacts to the power input.

ATTS and SH-AWD are very smooth in their application, whereas the FWD LSD is more abrupt in its behavior -when compared to ATTS to SH-AWD.

DISCLAIMER: Notice I'm making a comparison, not saying the FWD LSD is abrupt per se, so please don't twist my words. I remember making such a comment but somehow it got taken in a strange and tortuous path.

Naturally, eSH-AWD is, IMHO, best as it can react without the application of power, which, IMHO, is the achiles heel of ALL torque vectoring systems. But, as I recall ATTS was able to do some TMU like vector transfers without power, which mechanical SH-AWD can't do. I'm I recalling this right?

Of course, I always drive my FWD cars in reverse, so this whole discussion is moot!

BTW... yeah, ATTS was not very good at laying out rubber.




owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 21:04
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Grace141 wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
RMTRADER wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...



No crap. Tony. Stick to CRV's.



(1) I don't have a CRV. As it was, we had two once upon a time. Both were AWD which really helped out with the understeering common to FWD vehicles.

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.






2) Tony, visibly tightening the line when applying gas is NOT the same as binary. Binary implies that it is either working at max value or it is off. You COULD feel the LSD on the Si tighten the line, but it wasn't binary. It continued to the tighten the line as you applied more throttle until you reached the limits of adhesion. Sort of like a mile version of SH-AWD, which starts with steady state understeer and then tucks the line as you add power.

That said, we have already been over this more than once over the years, and it shows your limited experience with Honda LSD's. The point I made then and stand by now is that Honda CHOSE to make the LSD engagement more aggressive starting with the 8th gen Civic Si, and continued it with the 9th gen upon which your experience is based. Honda's older LSDs did NOT exhibit this characteristic and were much more linear in transition.



Ay, are you being a bit hard core with semantics here?

Are you agreeing then that the 9th gen Si was more fun than the 8th?


;-)

Nothing is binary because there's always a histeresys to the behavior. You are doing a very strict interpretation of what I call "ON/OFF". It is ON and OFF because it is abrupt when compared with ATTS and SH-AWD. You can feel the nose moving around, whereas you would never feel that with ATTS (very proactive to the car's attitude and acceleration) and much less with SH-AWD ( much more linear than the LSD but "quicker" than ATTS ).

SH-AWD and ATTS are simply smoother and have significantly higher limits. Imagine an Si with SH-AWD, like others have said, you could not find its limits on open roads, except perhaps on rain/snow/ice. You'd be nuts to try to find its limits outside of a race track or private road.

Such a car, would be, for all purposes, a very neutral car.

Heck, an eSH-AWD would be the perfectly neutral car. It might be boring, as the 9th gen Si was when compared with the 8th gen, yet it would be faster.

Like they say... it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.




No, actually Tony, you are the one dabbling in semantics.

The TORSEN LSD mechanically transfers torque. Produce more torque, and more torque gets transferred to the wheel with more traction. It is actually analog. In fact, other than NOT being able to overdrive the torque it is receiving by multiplying it through gears and clutches, which are heavy and (in the case of clutches) require maintenance. That is why you get 90% of the benefit for much less cost, complexity, weight and long term maintenance. You ultimately become limited by your ability to maintain traction and transfer available torque.

But again, your lack of experience with Honda LSD's is showing. The reason the Type-R was mentioned had nothing to do with suspension tuning, and EVERYTHING to do with its ability to transfer torque (just like the SH) under more power to tighten the handling line, so you are focusing on the wrong part of the comparison. It was also used specifically because prior to the 8th gen Si, it was the ONLY FWD Honda product to offer a TORSEN LSD and it was calibrated much differently than the one in the 8th and 9th gen Si, which was basically the same unit.

There is a reason that Honda didn't proliferate ATTS, but they DID proliferate TORSEN LSD's.


The reality is there have been multiple times more Acuras sold with SH-AWD than all of the Hondas sold with limited slips combined. The ATTS concept evolved nicely into SH-AWD.

Tony is correct. A limited slip diff only reacts to the loss of grip on one side of the axle to which it's applied. Intelligent systems like ATTS and SH-AWD are designed to take full advantage of grip at all times, not just under power-on situations regardless of the wisdom of the Internet. SH-AWD doesn't really replace a limited slip because it's used for completely different reasons. ATTS and SH-AWD do add weight but more importantly they add cost which wouldn't work with the intent of the Si which is a cheap, fun sporty car.



No, actually Tony is not correct.

SH-AWD and ATTS only differ from a TORSEN LSD because they can take the torque given to them and overdrive it. However, BOTH work on the principle of moving torque from one side to the other based on available traction.

SH-AWD can't create grip that doesn't exist, nor can a TORSEN. In fact, the similarity is that BOTH require input torque in order to create any effect at all.

Also like SH-AWD, the TORSEN apportions torque from a slippery side to a side with more grip, which makes them very useful in snow and on low friction surfaces.

As for SH-AWD outselling TORSEN equipped Honda's, I would like to see your sources for that, since last I could tell, Civic Si's have featured a TORSEN since 2006 and they typically sell in the ballpark of 20-30K units per year. The only SH-AWD model that could even hold a candle to that would be the MDX and that is a different situation.

As for "internet knowledge," I would call it "real world experience" based on...you know...driving the actual cars? Just because you don't like the reality of it doesn't mean that it is mythical knowledge.

The TORSEN is MUCH more effective than Tony wants to give it credit for because it is light, small, compact, relatively cheap and works instantaneously with virtually zero maintenance. It can't overdrive a wheel, but it is NOT "on/off" nor does it do nothing.

I'm guessing you haven't driven any FWD Honda's with a TORSEN either Grace?

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 21:12
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TonyEX wrote:
notyper wrote:
Grace141 wrote:

The reality is there have been multiple times more Acuras sold with SH-AWD than all of the Hondas sold with limited slips combined. The ATTS concept evolved nicely into SH-AWD.

Tony is correct. A limited slip diff only reacts to the loss of grip on one side of the axle to which it's applied. Intelligent systems like ATTS and SH-AWD are designed to take full advantage of grip at all times, not just under power-on situations regardless of the wisdom of the Internet. SH-AWD doesn't really replace a limited slip because it's used for completely different reasons. ATTS and SH-AWD do add weight but more importantly they add cost which wouldn't work with the intent of the Si which is a cheap, fun sporty car.



I'll start knitting a winter sweater while you explain to me how ATTS as fitted to the Prelude SH did anything to manage grip during anything but throttle on situations. You can also tell me how it dealt with wheelspin in a straight line with varying traction from wheel to wheel....

In the modern world, the only difference between SH-AWD (which is irrelevant to the conversation about a FWD car) or ATTS and modern electronically controlled limited slip diffs is the ability to overspeed a wheel by a couple percent.

SC



The relevance is in HOW the car reacts to the power input.

ATTS and SH-AWD are very smooth in their application, whereas the FWD LSD is more abrupt in its behavior -when compared to ATTS to SH-AWD.

DISCLAIMER: Notice I'm making a comparison, not saying the FWD LSD is abrupt per se, so please don't twist my words. I remember making such a comment but somehow it got taken in a strange and tortuous path.

Naturally, eSH-AWD is, IMHO, best as it can react without the application of power, which, IMHO, is the achiles heel of ALL torque vectoring systems. But, as I recall ATTS was able to do some TMU like vector transfers without power, which mechanical SH-AWD can't do. I'm I recalling this right?

Of course, I always drive my FWD cars in reverse, so this whole discussion is moot!

BTW... yeah, ATTS was not very good at laying out rubber.






You are criticizing a calibration choice. That would be like buying a Type-R and then saying that all strut suspensions ride firmly.

Your 9th gen Si's, of which there were two, had the same basic unit that was in my Si. It DID engage more abruptly (than older Honda units), but that is NOT a function of the TORSEN limited slip, as the TORSEN unit in my 1990 Accord is 100% transparent. Honda CHOSE to make the lockup ratio more aggressive, but again that was a CHOICE. Also, it only transferred torque as aggressively as you applied power, which is actually similar to ATTS and SH-AWD.

The problem is that your experience with it is limited to that 1 unit and you are making a blanket statement about ALL units based on limited exposure to 1 unit.



Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-16-2018 07:12
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notyper wrote:
Grace141 wrote:

The reality is there have been multiple times more Acuras sold with SH-AWD than all of the Hondas sold with limited slips combined. The ATTS concept evolved nicely into SH-AWD.

Tony is correct. A limited slip diff only reacts to the loss of grip on one side of the axle to which it's applied. Intelligent systems like ATTS and SH-AWD are designed to take full advantage of grip at all times, not just under power-on situations regardless of the wisdom of the Internet. SH-AWD doesn't really replace a limited slip because it's used for completely different reasons. ATTS and SH-AWD do add weight but more importantly they add cost which wouldn't work with the intent of the Si which is a cheap, fun sporty car.



I'll start knitting a winter sweater while you explain to me how ATTS as fitted to the Prelude SH did anything to manage grip during anything but throttle on situations. You can also tell me how it dealt with wheelspin in a straight line with varying traction from wheel to wheel....

In the modern world, the only difference between SH-AWD (which is irrelevant to the conversation about a FWD car) or ATTS and modern electronically controlled limited slip diffs is the ability to overspeed a wheel by a couple percent.

SC


I understood the Honda info on ATTS at the time as it managed engine braking torque when the throttle was closed during cornering. Maybe I had that wrong though.

I've never cared for sweaters.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-16-2018 11:51
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owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
notyper wrote:
Grace141 wrote:

The reality is there have been multiple times more Acuras sold with SH-AWD than all of the Hondas sold with limited slips combined. The ATTS concept evolved nicely into SH-AWD.

Tony is correct. A limited slip diff only reacts to the loss of grip on one side of the axle to which it's applied. Intelligent systems like ATTS and SH-AWD are designed to take full advantage of grip at all times, not just under power-on situations regardless of the wisdom of the Internet. SH-AWD doesn't really replace a limited slip because it's used for completely different reasons. ATTS and SH-AWD do add weight but more importantly they add cost which wouldn't work with the intent of the Si which is a cheap, fun sporty car.



I'll start knitting a winter sweater while you explain to me how ATTS as fitted to the Prelude SH did anything to manage grip during anything but throttle on situations. You can also tell me how it dealt with wheelspin in a straight line with varying traction from wheel to wheel....

In the modern world, the only difference between SH-AWD (which is irrelevant to the conversation about a FWD car) or ATTS and modern electronically controlled limited slip diffs is the ability to overspeed a wheel by a couple percent.

SC



The relevance is in HOW the car reacts to the power input.

ATTS and SH-AWD are very smooth in their application, whereas the FWD LSD is more abrupt in its behavior -when compared to ATTS to SH-AWD.

DISCLAIMER: Notice I'm making a comparison, not saying the FWD LSD is abrupt per se, so please don't twist my words. I remember making such a comment but somehow it got taken in a strange and tortuous path.

Naturally, eSH-AWD is, IMHO, best as it can react without the application of power, which, IMHO, is the achiles heel of ALL torque vectoring systems. But, as I recall ATTS was able to do some TMU like vector transfers without power, which mechanical SH-AWD can't do. I'm I recalling this right?

Of course, I always drive my FWD cars in reverse, so this whole discussion is moot!

BTW... yeah, ATTS was not very good at laying out rubber.






You are criticizing a calibration choice. That would be like buying a Type-R and then saying that all strut suspensions ride firmly.

Your 9th gen Si's, of which there were two, had the same basic unit that was in my Si. It DID engage more abruptly (than older Honda units), but that is NOT a function of the TORSEN limited slip, as the TORSEN unit in my 1990 Accord is 100% transparent. Honda CHOSE to make the lockup ratio more aggressive, but again that was a CHOICE. Also, it only transferred torque as aggressively as you applied power, which is actually similar to ATTS and SH-AWD.

The problem is that your experience with it is limited to that 1 unit and you are making a blanket statement about ALL units based on limited exposure to 1 unit.





Since you insist on making such sweeping statements...

I'm writing about the Si, the Prelude SH and the Acuras.

Not about some Camaro or 'Vette.

So, please do not read the tea leaves in my posts.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-16-2018 14:39
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Oh man, Owe....

Can't you just give it up?

Why do you have to put words into others people's texts, thus creating a strawman theory, and then proceed, in a most unpolite way, to knock it down as if it was the original poster's theory, when in reality it's something you set up?

Seriously, when you must always be correct, even when you must twist the other party's posts, it just makes engaging with you a most unpleasant encounter.

Example:

Fred says: "The sky is blue"
Owe replys: "You are so wrong. The sky is not blue in the evening, obviously you don't get outside very often"

See?

Now, peace be with you.



gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-16-2018 15:47
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I had to laugh, that pretty well summarizes any interaction with owe where he and the other party aren't in agreement; however, he's often right or at least has a valid point as I believe he does in this case.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-16-2018 18:02
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gofast182 wrote:
I had to laugh, that pretty well summarizes any interaction with owe where he and the other party aren't in agreement; however, he's often right or at least has a valid point as I believe he does in this case.


But his counterpoint has nothing to do with my point.

I make a point: P1.

He changes the point into something else P2 and then states a counterpoint, P3, that says I'm wrong on P2.... Then he extends P3 to P4 that implies that I'm wrong on P1.

But my point was P1, not P2. I argued nothing about P2.

So, yeah, he may be right on P3 about P2, but he didn't not address P1.

And further more, when he uses P4 to extend the rationale of P3 to P1, then he is very wrong.

Standard logical fallacy in arguments. Listen to politicians.

You can not use transitive logic that way, plus the creation of P2 and the counterpoint of P3 are a classic straw man logical fallacy. They have nothing to do with P1.

If you've studied mathematics or formal logic you'd see it very clear and would not make such arguments.

Is it clear now, or do I have to spell it all out clearly?

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-16-2018 18:53
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TonyEX wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I had to laugh, that pretty well summarizes any interaction with owe where he and the other party aren't in agreement; however, he's often right or at least has a valid point as I believe he does in this case.


But his counterpoint has nothing to do with my point.

I make a point: P1.

He changes the point into something else P2 and then states a counterpoint, P3, that says I'm wrong on P2.... Then he extends P3 to P4 that implies that I'm wrong on P1.

But my point was P1, not P2. I argued nothing about P2.

So, yeah, he may be right on P3 about P2, but he didn't not address P1.

And further more, when he uses P4 to extend the rationale of P3 to P1, then he is very wrong.

Standard logical fallacy in arguments. Listen to politicians.

You can not use transitive logic that way, plus the creation of P2 and the counterpoint of P3 are a classic straw man logical fallacy. They have nothing to do with P1.

If you've studied mathematics or formal logic you'd see it very clear and would not make such arguments.

Is it clear now, or do I have to spell it all out clearly?


Whether or not Owe is right or wrong, he has definitely got your goat.



TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-16-2018 19:42
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Naw.... I suspect it's the other way.

Just bring the popcorn, sit back and let's wait.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 06:42
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TonyEX wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I had to laugh, that pretty well summarizes any interaction with owe where he and the other party aren't in agreement; however, he's often right or at least has a valid point as I believe he does in this case.


But his counterpoint has nothing to do with my point.

I make a point: P1.

He changes the point into something else P2 and then states a counterpoint, P3, that says I'm wrong on P2.... Then he extends P3 to P4 that implies that I'm wrong on P1.

But my point was P1, not P2. I argued nothing about P2.

So, yeah, he may be right on P3 about P2, but he didn't not address P1.

And further more, when he uses P4 to extend the rationale of P3 to P1, then he is very wrong.

Standard logical fallacy in arguments. Listen to politicians.

You can not use transitive logic that way, plus the creation of P2 and the counterpoint of P3 are a classic straw man logical fallacy. They have nothing to do with P1.

If you've studied mathematics or formal logic you'd see it very clear and would not make such arguments.

Is it clear now, or do I have to spell it all out clearly?


Ironically, you just did one of the things you accuse him of. SMH. My ability to reason is fine, thank you very much.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-17-2018 17:41
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gofast182 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
gofast182 wrote:
I had to laugh, that pretty well summarizes any interaction with owe where he and the other party aren't in agreement; however, he's often right or at least has a valid point as I believe he does in this case.


But his counterpoint has nothing to do with my point.

I make a point: P1.

He changes the point into something else P2 and then states a counterpoint, P3, that says I'm wrong on P2.... Then he extends P3 to P4 that implies that I'm wrong on P1.

But my point was P1, not P2. I argued nothing about P2.

So, yeah, he may be right on P3 about P2, but he didn't not address P1.

And further more, when he uses P4 to extend the rationale of P3 to P1, then he is very wrong.

Standard logical fallacy in arguments. Listen to politicians.

You can not use transitive logic that way, plus the creation of P2 and the counterpoint of P3 are a classic straw man logical fallacy. They have nothing to do with P1.

If you've studied mathematics or formal logic you'd see it very clear and would not make such arguments.

Is it clear now, or do I have to spell it all out clearly?


Ironically, you just did one of the things you accuse him of. SMH. My ability to reason is fine, thank you very much.



Hmm, you're right. Sorry, didn't mean to.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2018 01:54
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typer_801 wrote:
You're memories of ATTS are improving with age. In back to back runs in a Prelude SH vs an Integra Type-R (back in 2002), both the SH owner and I preferred the more immediate response of the LSD from the Type-R. Particularly evident in slalom transitions the LSD had much quicker response and immediate engagement when on throttle.

TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.






Memories?

Like the the time I did a middle of the night drive up and down the Ortega Highway.... no traffic.

On the way up, I did it mellow, smoking a cigar.

Stopped at the bottom of the hill to finish the stoogie and then did a serious drive back.

Years later I drove that road again in the daytime.

SHIT!

Some of those curves have 500 foot drops.

Trust me, ATTS works. It's nothing about improving with age... the fact was that my SH worked beautifully. I could go deep into the turns with power, get on the brakes, rotate and power out with power. Pulling Fangios with very little effort.

Not knowing there were some very deep drop offs to my right.

KIDS, don't do this unless you got a very good car and have no clue what lies beyond the edge of the road.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-21-2018 02:03
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sadlerau wrote:
TonyEX wrote:

No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.



I agree that a SH-AWD equipped chassis will be much faster and safer than an LSD equipped FWD [I ought to know, having espoused SH-AWD on these pages before anyone else had woken up :)]. But the difference may not be as big as you imagine, when the Civic's chassis is so well tied down.

Anyway, a true "driver's car" is not necessarily about the ultimate's, but more about how it feels to the driver, and here I think the Type R is such a fantastic "driver's car" if it's being used only on weekends, strictly for driver enjoyment, then it's worth it, even without SH-AWD.

Secondly, to truly enjoy SH-AWD on a decent chassis, I don't think you'd have your licence for very long, and more importantly, you would be doing speeds that aren't really conducive to safe public road travel [not that I'd expect the Type R to be much slower].



Good point.

Cars are getting pretty good and very fast nowadays.

What I've found is that where you really see the advantages of SH-AWD, outside of a track, is in an everyday drive when it rains or snows hard. With strong cross winds.

The one time I drove the TLX SH-AWD on a drive to Washington... 200 miles through a very late evening, heavy snow storm on mountain passes and a huge storm the next day, was an eye opener. I was not trying to drive fast, just drive. The car was imperturbable. It was very easy to drive at elevated speeds with no fuss or muss inside the cabin.







 
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