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Fitdad
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 12:27
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They have to establish credibility as a performance brand. Again.

Lot easier to do that if the TLX is given all the marketing and all the opportunity to compete against the big boys. The ILX just muddles the picture.

Also look at A3 sales of the last 3 years: 35k, 31k, 23k...and itís down this year as well. That particular ďsegmentĒ isnít worth the investment - ILX sales themselves also speak quite strongly to that point.

longhorn
Profile for longhorn
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 12:41
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RolledaNsx wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
My thoughts on what is going on.

There is now a very big change coming to all Autos caused by all the new laws(China and UK/EU going BEV) and people going more to SUV.

ILX and RLX FMC just came at the wrong time(now).So they cancelled both FMC(ILX MY19, RLX MY20).

I think a Ohio built CDX(built on todays ILX line) will replace the ILX(built off next gen. Fit Platform).

Next gen. TLX will replace ILX,TLX and RLX(base engine 2.0t with Type-S 3.0t and Sport Hybrid model).

Next RLX(around 2021) becoming a FCEV(maybe BEV too).

Honda's next gen. engine family is do in 2020.Looks like Honda is going the same way with engines as Mazda(very low friction and adj. compression).

I was told the next gen. ILX was going to be made in the UK.I wonder if the BRIXIT and Tariffs killed that plan????



Rolled, my source (whoís extremely creditable) told me differently. The platform diagram I sent Jeff which was confirmed to be an all new sedan platform for the next gen TLX had the following drivetrains options, 2.0t/10AT/FWD, 2.0t/10AT/SHAWD, 3.0t/10AT/SH-AWD a 2.0t/10 speed/FWD PHEV version (the 10 speed used here isnít the same as the regular Honda/Acura 10AT as itís a completely different design given the picture). The Sport Hybrid system wasnít on the list, at least for the TLX.

My source also told me that the RLX and ILX would be the last 2 applications to get FMCís simply because theyíre not very profitable but they will get FMCís after the volumes sellers get theirs. Even with the CDX possibly coming, Acura would be stupid to axe the RLX/ILX simply because their portfolio is already tiny compared to the leaders in the luxury segment. Acura needs as many models as possible.



Didn't say RLX and ILX was axed, just said the original plans for them has changed so the original FMC for both didn't happen as plan....new ILX was suppose to debut last year or early this year and new RLX was suppose to debut next year.

I see RLX and ILX(if they keep it) built of the new TLX Platform(first of the next gen. Civic/Accord platform but with Double Wishbone Suspension upfront).
RLX-HEV(eSH-AWD) and FCEV models(AWD)
ILX-ICE(new 2020 family engine) and HEV(Two-Motor or eSH-AWD) also with ICE SH-AWD version too.



Plans change as seen here, the new ILX was scheduled to debut this year. I will call it, I bet they change again, the ILX goes away being replaced by a sporty high riding CUV.

aids333
Profile for aids333
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 12:55
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superchg2 wrote:
aids333 wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
My thoughts on what is going on....???



Rolled, my source (whoís extremely creditable) told me differently. The platform diagram I sent Jeff which was confirmed to be an all new sedan platform for the next gen TLX had the following drivetrains options, 2.0t/10AT/FWD, 2.0t/10AT/SHAWD, 3.0t/10AT/SH-AWD a 2.0t/10 speed/FWD PHEV version (the 10 speed used here isnít the same as the regular Honda/Acura 10AT as itís a completely different design given the picture). The Sport Hybrid system wasnít on the list, at least for the TLX.

My source also told me that the RLX and ILX would be the last 2 applications to get FMCís simply because theyíre not very profitable but they will get FMCís after the volumes sellers get theirs. Even with the CDX possibly coming, Acura would be stupid to axe the RLX/ILX simply because their portfolio is already tiny compared to the leaders in the luxury segment. Acura needs as many models as possible.



An American Honda employee all but confirmed the 2019 ILX is a minor update. :(


With sedans already on the ropes, one has to wonder why Acura chooses to lose money by bringing rehashed lLX's and RLX's to dealers when there are no buyers?!




Take a look at all sedan sales over the past 4 years in the US. There's one bright spot. The civic. It's the only volume seller sedan platform that has made sales increases since 2015.

Seems like a no-brainer to leverage that success.. but what do I know.

Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 13:25
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Fitdad wrote:
They have to establish credibility as a performance brand. Again.

Lot easier to do that if the TLX is given all the marketing and all the opportunity to compete against the big boys. The ILX just muddles the picture.

Also look at A3 sales of the last 3 years: 35k, 31k, 23k...and itís down this year as well. That particular ďsegmentĒ isnít worth the investment - ILX sales themselves also speak quite strongly to that point.



Muddle the picture?

The TLX will be launched next year with all its own fanfare. Hopefully the TLX Type S launch is at the same time or soon thereafter.

Then the new ILX is launched (6 months later or so), upgraded like the RDX, along with a Type S model. How does that muddle the picture? The more Type S models they have, the more credibility as a performance brand.

Keeping the ILX as a model (using the Acura plank and engines) would not require much investment and still could add 20-30,000 in sales each year.

CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 13:36
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You donít replace a sedan with a CUV. By thinking you can only have one or the other youíre leaving potential sales behind.

There is no question that when Acura launches a smaller SUV slotted below the RDX, demand for said model will be robust.

The point is launching said model would be a bid to capture sales now being lost simply because Acura does not offer a model in that category. It would not be about capturing sales currently captured by the ILX only more effectively.

Exploring the value of offering a sedan slotted below the TLX is about determining if Acura can pull in enough sales to justify offering such a model. Deciding on a sub-RDX SUV is in many respects a separate conversation. Even if the current ILX was a fabulous product with excellent sales, that would certainly not be a reason to refuse to launch said smallish SUV. Similarly, planning to launch the small SUV should not be reason to dismiss doing a sub-TLX sedan.

Granted, if one concluded that there wouldnít be enough sales to justify two products at a similar price point, that could be an argument for not doing another ILX. Yet itís not that easy to figure out exactly what the sales would look like per se. You canít simply use the current ILXís numbers because weak numbers are more likely caused by a weak product than the potential sales to be had.

Done right, I think both an ILX successor and a smaller SUV (aka a CUV, aka a CDX) would give Acura two high-volume performers. How is this a bad thing?

I suspect that if the ILX had been done right in the first place, this line of reasoning simply wouldnít be popping up and weíd still be hearing about Acura wanting to do a sub-RDX sports ute.



Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 15:53
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Execution alone wonít save Acura. They need to structure their lineup properly. I submit that continuing on with having two compact sedans in the ILX and TLX is a mistake and Acura would be wise to rethink the entry point into their non-SUV lineup.
smArt
Profile for smArt
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 17:43
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I like what Acura is doing by giving priority to their volume selling models while rumored to be working on multiple models simultaneously.

I think the ILX has it's place in the Acura lineup especially since the next gen TLX will probably be making a big leap in quality from where it's at now. This gives room for the ILX to be the entry vehicle to the Acura brand while the TLX can be a true premium vehicle in the entry luxury division of the market.


CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 12:39
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smArt wrote:
I like what Acura is doing by giving priority to their volume selling models while rumored to be working on multiple models simultaneously.

I think the ILX has it's place in the Acura lineup especially since the next gen TLX will probably be making a big leap in quality from where it's at now. This gives room for the ILX to be the entry vehicle to the Acura brand while the TLX can be a true premium vehicle in the entry luxury division of the market.




It shouldnít be about the quality level. It should be about offering various sizes, price points, etc. But the quality standards should be set to a level suitable for a premium brand. This is why I would prefer to see the next ILX derived from the next TLX and not something like the Civic, just as I would deem it a mistake to derive a CDX from the HRV.

Two platforms could yield the vast majority of Acura-branded offerings. A sedan/coupe platform and an SUV platform. Pull together a wide range of products from those two platforms and economies of scale would allow Acura to pursue its own distinct path.

The ILX ought to be a smaller, hence less expensive, version of the TLX, not a product developed on the cheap to hit a particular price point just to have such an offering in the Acura mix. Honda has the less-expensive-sedans-built-to-a-different-standard angle covered with its Honda-branded offerings. Doing something similar with Acura would be redundant. History shows that approach isnít effective.

If one has a preference for a somewhat smaller, nimbler package but still wants to look at a premium option, thatís where the ILX should fit in. Since such an offering would likely cost less than the TLX it would be based on, an attractive entry price point to the brand would be achieved without hardly trying.

If you derive the next ILX from the Civic, no matter how good the product, you invite a continuation of the damaging narrative the automotive press has engaged in for years. It invariably starts off by pointing out the product is Civic-derived and that tends to be the anchor for whatever else is said about the product. The better the Civic gets the tougher it is to find the Acura version to be a big enough upgrade to justify its existence. Image matters. Perception matters. When youíre talking premium brands, they matter that much more.

Whether or not the baby TLX were superior in any meaningfull measure to the Civic+ is beside the point. A TLX-derived ILX would tend to be compared to the TLX whereas a Civic-derived ILX would tend to be compared to the Civic.

If the ILX refresh is caused by a change of plans from deriving the next ILX from the Civic to basing it on the TLX instead, this represents Acura management finally figuring out where it went wrong with the original ILX. This is a good thing.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 13:24
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Hondu wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
They have to establish credibility as a performance brand. Again.

Lot easier to do that if the TLX is given all the marketing and all the opportunity to compete against the big boys. The ILX just muddles the picture.

Also look at A3 sales of the last 3 years: 35k, 31k, 23k...and itís down this year as well. That particular ďsegmentĒ isnít worth the investment - ILX sales themselves also speak quite strongly to that point.



Muddle the picture?

The TLX will be launched next year with all its own fanfare. Hopefully the TLX Type S launch is at the same time or soon thereafter.

Then the new ILX is launched (6 months later or so), upgraded like the RDX, along with a Type S model. How does that muddle the picture? The more Type S models they have, the more credibility as a performance brand.

Keeping the ILX as a model (using the Acura plank and engines) would not require much investment and still could add 20-30,000 in sales each year.



Coming back to this -

The ILX does muddle the picture for a few reasons:

-The compact luxury sedan segment is the biggest luxury sales segment for non-SUVs. Having a legit vehicle in this segment is a MUST if you're going to push any kind of sales success.

-The ILX and TLX are currently both classified as compact sedans. I know that they are very different - but the numbers are what they are. As I said in another post - certainly having TWO sedans in the same size segment is a bad idea when sedan sales are completely in the tank.

-And, thus, the muddling. For Acura has to push one car as their main alternative to the A4, C-class and 3 series. Moving forward that car has to be the TLX because it already is that car. They can't push the TLX "up" because pushing vehicles up a size segment is a recipe for disaster (see the CTS). I'm also of the opinion that the TLX should not be a "tweener" because that also further muddles the picture if the ILX stays around and remains a compact (as in - which car is their 3 series alternative?). It's better for Acura to just have one vehicle in this space.

-Even if the ILX becomes a "subcompact" like the A3 is - the pricing and the overlap are still there. Acura and the TLX don't have the same credibility as the A4 or the C-class. They also will NEVER have as many models as those brands do - why would they waste one of their model slots on a car that starts below $30,000 and has a price ceiling of $40,000? (See note about ATP below) A 186" TLX will do EVERYTHING an ILX would do except do it for $5,000 more AND with a price ceiling that is $10-$15,000 higher. Especially if they keep a 1.5T TLX around for under $35K.

-The idea that a properly done ILX could add 20-30,000 sales a year is ridiculous.

-Acura has the lowest Average Transaction Price of any luxury brand. We constantly hear complaints about how the lineup doesn't support the NSX - it also does nothing to support the RLX. Acura needs to find ways to have people spend more money. Better execution is part of the equation - the OTHER part is structuring the lineup so that people have multiple opportunities to move up. Look at how many non-SUV options Audi has the $40-$50K range. S3, A4, A5, A5 lift back, A6, A4 all road. Acura has...ONE non-SUV option - the V6 TLX (OK almost the I4 Aspec). I'm sure you could get a base RLX for under $50K - but the advertised MSRP is $54k. And obviously nobody is making that particular move.

-I'm of the opinion that Acura needs more options in that $40-50K pricing space and that keeping the ILX around just limits their ability to add models into that space because Acura will never have 7 or 8 non-SUV options. They're likely to have 2-3 sedans and maybe a coupe or a hatch.

-Acura needs to push the lineup "up-market" and having the TLX be a proper compact with nothing beneath it gives them the most pricing room, most size room and most "slots" to play with in the $40K+ range.

Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 14:11
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Fitdad wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
They have to establish credibility as a performance brand. Again.

Lot easier to do that if the TLX is given all the marketing and all the opportunity to compete against the big boys. The ILX just muddles the picture.

Also look at A3 sales of the last 3 years: 35k, 31k, 23k...and itís down this year as well. That particular ďsegmentĒ isnít worth the investment - ILX sales themselves also speak quite strongly to that point.



Muddle the picture?

The TLX will be launched next year with all its own fanfare. Hopefully the TLX Type S launch is at the same time or soon thereafter.

Then the new ILX is launched (6 months later or so), upgraded like the RDX, along with a Type S model. How does that muddle the picture? The more Type S models they have, the more credibility as a performance brand.

Keeping the ILX as a model (using the Acura plank and engines) would not require much investment and still could add 20-30,000 in sales each year.



Coming back to this -

The ILX does muddle the picture for a few reasons:

-The compact luxury sedan segment is the biggest luxury sales segment for non-SUVs. Having a legit vehicle in this segment is a MUST if you're going to push any kind of sales success.

-The ILX and TLX are currently both classified as compact sedans. I know that they are very different - but the numbers are what they are. As I said in another post - certainly having TWO sedans in the same size segment is a bad idea when sedan sales are completely in the tank.

-And, thus, the muddling. For Acura has to push one car as their main alternative to the A4, C-class and 3 series. Moving forward that car has to be the TLX because it already is that car. They can't push the TLX "up" because pushing vehicles up a size segment is a recipe for disaster (see the CTS). I'm also of the opinion that the TLX should not be a "tweener" because that also further muddles the picture if the ILX stays around and remains a compact (as in - which car is their 3 series alternative?). It's better for Acura to just have one vehicle in this space.

-Even if the ILX becomes a "subcompact" like the A3 is - the pricing and the overlap are still there. Acura and the TLX don't have the same credibility as the A4 or the C-class. They also will NEVER have as many models as those brands do - why would they waste one of their model slots on a car that starts below $30,000 and has a price ceiling of $40,000? (See note about ATP below) A 186" TLX will do EVERYTHING an ILX would do except do it for $5,000 more AND with a price ceiling that is $10-$15,000 higher. Especially if they keep a 1.5T TLX around for under $35K.

-The idea that a properly done ILX could add 20-30,000 sales a year is ridiculous.

-Acura has the lowest Average Transaction Price of any luxury brand. We constantly hear complaints about how the lineup doesn't support the NSX - it also does nothing to support the RLX. Acura needs to find ways to have people spend more money. Better execution is part of the equation - the OTHER part is structuring the lineup so that people have multiple opportunities to move up. Look at how many non-SUV options Audi has the $40-$50K range. S3, A4, A5, A5 lift back, A6, A4 all road. Acura has...ONE non-SUV option - the V6 TLX (OK almost the I4 Aspec). I'm sure you could get a base RLX for under $50K - but the advertised MSRP is $54k. And obviously nobody is making that particular move.

-I'm of the opinion that Acura needs more options in that $40-50K pricing space and that keeping the ILX around just limits their ability to add models into that space because Acura will never have 7 or 8 non-SUV options. They're likely to have 2-3 sedans and maybe a coupe or a hatch.

-Acura needs to push the lineup "up-market" and having the TLX be a proper compact with nothing beneath it gives them the most pricing room, most size room and most "slots" to play with in the $40K+ range.



Credibility? They have no credibility because they offered a shit model in the ILX from the get-go. Make it class leading (or close to it), like the RDX, and they will have the needed credibility. Let see what the luxury competition offers when it comes to size:

Audi
A3 - 176"
A4 - 186"

BMW
2-series - 175" (possible sedan coming as well, similar in size)
3-series - 182.5" (next gen coming later this year is growing some)

Mercedes
CLA - 182"
C-class - 184.5"

And for Acura:

Acura
ILX - 182"
TLX - 191"

The least of the problems the ILX has is the size of the vehicle. Being based on a previous gen Civic platform, "meh" interior and only one okay powertrain offering are its main/major problems (once again, the crappy launch of the vehicle did nothing to help).

Acura can easily fix the major problems with using a shortened TLX platform and only offering 2.0T engines (like the A3). You suggest using a 1.5T in the TLX? That is a dumb idea and would hurt the brand more than keeping the ILX around.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 14:35
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Hondu wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
They have to establish credibility as a performance brand. Again.

Lot easier to do that if the TLX is given all the marketing and all the opportunity to compete against the big boys. The ILX just muddles the picture.

Also look at A3 sales of the last 3 years: 35k, 31k, 23k...and itís down this year as well. That particular ďsegmentĒ isnít worth the investment - ILX sales themselves also speak quite strongly to that point.



Muddle the picture?

The TLX will be launched next year with all its own fanfare. Hopefully the TLX Type S launch is at the same time or soon thereafter.

Then the new ILX is launched (6 months later or so), upgraded like the RDX, along with a Type S model. How does that muddle the picture? The more Type S models they have, the more credibility as a performance brand.

Keeping the ILX as a model (using the Acura plank and engines) would not require much investment and still could add 20-30,000 in sales each year.



Coming back to this -

The ILX does muddle the picture for a few reasons:

-The compact luxury sedan segment is the biggest luxury sales segment for non-SUVs. Having a legit vehicle in this segment is a MUST if you're going to push any kind of sales success.

-The ILX and TLX are currently both classified as compact sedans. I know that they are very different - but the numbers are what they are. As I said in another post - certainly having TWO sedans in the same size segment is a bad idea when sedan sales are completely in the tank.

-And, thus, the muddling. For Acura has to push one car as their main alternative to the A4, C-class and 3 series. Moving forward that car has to be the TLX because it already is that car. They can't push the TLX "up" because pushing vehicles up a size segment is a recipe for disaster (see the CTS). I'm also of the opinion that the TLX should not be a "tweener" because that also further muddles the picture if the ILX stays around and remains a compact (as in - which car is their 3 series alternative?). It's better for Acura to just have one vehicle in this space.

-Even if the ILX becomes a "subcompact" like the A3 is - the pricing and the overlap are still there. Acura and the TLX don't have the same credibility as the A4 or the C-class. They also will NEVER have as many models as those brands do - why would they waste one of their model slots on a car that starts below $30,000 and has a price ceiling of $40,000? (See note about ATP below) A 186" TLX will do EVERYTHING an ILX would do except do it for $5,000 more AND with a price ceiling that is $10-$15,000 higher. Especially if they keep a 1.5T TLX around for under $35K.

-The idea that a properly done ILX could add 20-30,000 sales a year is ridiculous.

-Acura has the lowest Average Transaction Price of any luxury brand. We constantly hear complaints about how the lineup doesn't support the NSX - it also does nothing to support the RLX. Acura needs to find ways to have people spend more money. Better execution is part of the equation - the OTHER part is structuring the lineup so that people have multiple opportunities to move up. Look at how many non-SUV options Audi has the $40-$50K range. S3, A4, A5, A5 lift back, A6, A4 all road. Acura has...ONE non-SUV option - the V6 TLX (OK almost the I4 Aspec). I'm sure you could get a base RLX for under $50K - but the advertised MSRP is $54k. And obviously nobody is making that particular move.

-I'm of the opinion that Acura needs more options in that $40-50K pricing space and that keeping the ILX around just limits their ability to add models into that space because Acura will never have 7 or 8 non-SUV options. They're likely to have 2-3 sedans and maybe a coupe or a hatch.

-Acura needs to push the lineup "up-market" and having the TLX be a proper compact with nothing beneath it gives them the most pricing room, most size room and most "slots" to play with in the $40K+ range.



Credibility? They have no credibility because they offered a shit model in the ILX from the get-go. Make it class leading (or close to it), like the RDX, and they will have the needed credibility. Let see what the luxury competition offers when it comes to size:

Audi
A3 - 176"
A4 - 186"

BMW
2-series - 175" (possible sedan coming as well, similar in size)
3-series - 182.5" (next gen coming later this year is growing some)

Mercedes
CLA - 182"
C-class - 184.5"

And for Acura:

Acura
ILX - 182"
TLX - 191"

The least of the problems the ILX has is the size of the vehicle. Being based on a previous gen Civic platform, "meh" interior and only one okay powertrain offering are its main/major problems (once again, the crappy launch of the vehicle did nothing to help).

Acura can easily fix the major problems with using a shortened TLX platform and only offering 2.0T engines (like the A3). You suggest using a 1.5T in the TLX? That is a dumb idea and would hurt the brand more than keeping the ILX around.



First off, Acura dealers should be glad that they at least have the RDX.

Secondly, I am trying to imagine anyone who would venture into an Acura dealer interested in purchasing an ILX?

I would think that it would be far better to remove the ILX from the market until it has been reimagined as a viable sedan, especially in a declining market segment!

Someone at Acura truly has their head up their Ass!



smArt
Profile for smArt
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 16:11
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CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
I like what Acura is doing by giving priority to their volume selling models while rumored to be working on multiple models simultaneously.

I think the ILX has it's place in the Acura lineup especially since the next gen TLX will probably be making a big leap in quality from where it's at now. This gives room for the ILX to be the entry vehicle to the Acura brand while the TLX can be a true premium vehicle in the entry luxury division of the market.




It shouldnít be about the quality level. It should be about offering various sizes, price points, etc. But the quality standards should be set to a level suitable for a premium brand. This is why I would prefer to see the next ILX derived from the next TLX and not something like the Civic, just as I would deem it a mistake to derive a CDX from the HRV.



Quality and refinement is the big factor when it comes to premium products. Acura is playing in a field where this matters. I see what you're saying about Acura not making the ILX a Civic in a tux and it doesn't have to be. There is a gap between the Civic/Accord and TLX that the ILX fits in quite nicely (size of the Civic, a little more refined than Accord, SH-AWD, Type S, Typer R?)

The new A class is not at the same level of quality as a C class and shouldn't be. Every MB model moves up in quality and refinement, the higher the segment goes. That's how it should be moving forward with Acura products. The next MDX should be at a higher level of quality than the RDX. I think what is confusing things is the current TLX. This current gen is not the standard for the TLX moving forward and certainly not the standard for the segment. The next TLX has to come out swinging. The ILX can fill the position of still being a premium car while being smaller, cheaper and a little less premium than the next TLX, just like the next A/CLA is to the C class.


Hondu
Profile for Hondu
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 16:33
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superchg2 wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
They have to establish credibility as a performance brand. Again.

Lot easier to do that if the TLX is given all the marketing and all the opportunity to compete against the big boys. The ILX just muddles the picture.

Also look at A3 sales of the last 3 years: 35k, 31k, 23k...and itís down this year as well. That particular ďsegmentĒ isnít worth the investment - ILX sales themselves also speak quite strongly to that point.



Muddle the picture?

The TLX will be launched next year with all its own fanfare. Hopefully the TLX Type S launch is at the same time or soon thereafter.

Then the new ILX is launched (6 months later or so), upgraded like the RDX, along with a Type S model. How does that muddle the picture? The more Type S models they have, the more credibility as a performance brand.

Keeping the ILX as a model (using the Acura plank and engines) would not require much investment and still could add 20-30,000 in sales each year.



Coming back to this -

The ILX does muddle the picture for a few reasons:

-The compact luxury sedan segment is the biggest luxury sales segment for non-SUVs. Having a legit vehicle in this segment is a MUST if you're going to push any kind of sales success.

-The ILX and TLX are currently both classified as compact sedans. I know that they are very different - but the numbers are what they are. As I said in another post - certainly having TWO sedans in the same size segment is a bad idea when sedan sales are completely in the tank.

-And, thus, the muddling. For Acura has to push one car as their main alternative to the A4, C-class and 3 series. Moving forward that car has to be the TLX because it already is that car. They can't push the TLX "up" because pushing vehicles up a size segment is a recipe for disaster (see the CTS). I'm also of the opinion that the TLX should not be a "tweener" because that also further muddles the picture if the ILX stays around and remains a compact (as in - which car is their 3 series alternative?). It's better for Acura to just have one vehicle in this space.

-Even if the ILX becomes a "subcompact" like the A3 is - the pricing and the overlap are still there. Acura and the TLX don't have the same credibility as the A4 or the C-class. They also will NEVER have as many models as those brands do - why would they waste one of their model slots on a car that starts below $30,000 and has a price ceiling of $40,000? (See note about ATP below) A 186" TLX will do EVERYTHING an ILX would do except do it for $5,000 more AND with a price ceiling that is $10-$15,000 higher. Especially if they keep a 1.5T TLX around for under $35K.

-The idea that a properly done ILX could add 20-30,000 sales a year is ridiculous.

-Acura has the lowest Average Transaction Price of any luxury brand. We constantly hear complaints about how the lineup doesn't support the NSX - it also does nothing to support the RLX. Acura needs to find ways to have people spend more money. Better execution is part of the equation - the OTHER part is structuring the lineup so that people have multiple opportunities to move up. Look at how many non-SUV options Audi has the $40-$50K range. S3, A4, A5, A5 lift back, A6, A4 all road. Acura has...ONE non-SUV option - the V6 TLX (OK almost the I4 Aspec). I'm sure you could get a base RLX for under $50K - but the advertised MSRP is $54k. And obviously nobody is making that particular move.

-I'm of the opinion that Acura needs more options in that $40-50K pricing space and that keeping the ILX around just limits their ability to add models into that space because Acura will never have 7 or 8 non-SUV options. They're likely to have 2-3 sedans and maybe a coupe or a hatch.

-Acura needs to push the lineup "up-market" and having the TLX be a proper compact with nothing beneath it gives them the most pricing room, most size room and most "slots" to play with in the $40K+ range.



Credibility? They have no credibility because they offered a shit model in the ILX from the get-go. Make it class leading (or close to it), like the RDX, and they will have the needed credibility. Let see what the luxury competition offers when it comes to size:

Audi
A3 - 176"
A4 - 186"

BMW
2-series - 175" (possible sedan coming as well, similar in size)
3-series - 182.5" (next gen coming later this year is growing some)

Mercedes
CLA - 182"
C-class - 184.5"

And for Acura:

Acura
ILX - 182"
TLX - 191"

The least of the problems the ILX has is the size of the vehicle. Being based on a previous gen Civic platform, "meh" interior and only one okay powertrain offering are its main/major problems (once again, the crappy launch of the vehicle did nothing to help).

Acura can easily fix the major problems with using a shortened TLX platform and only offering 2.0T engines (like the A3). You suggest using a 1.5T in the TLX? That is a dumb idea and would hurt the brand more than keeping the ILX around.



First off, Acura dealers should be glad that they at least have the RDX.

Secondly, I am trying to imagine anyone who would venture into an Acura dealer interested in purchasing an ILX?

I would think that it would be far better to remove the ILX from the market until it has been reimagined as a viable sedan, especially in a declining market segment!

Someone at Acura truly has their head up their Ass!





I know one person who has bought one recently, and I see another now on my way to work everyday.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 16:55
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Hondu wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
Hondu wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
They have to establish credibility as a performance brand. Again.

Lot easier to do that if the TLX is given all the marketing and all the opportunity to compete against the big boys. The ILX just muddles the picture.

Also look at A3 sales of the last 3 years: 35k, 31k, 23k...and itís down this year as well. That particular ďsegmentĒ isnít worth the investment - ILX sales themselves also speak quite strongly to that point.



Muddle the picture?

The TLX will be launched next year with all its own fanfare. Hopefully the TLX Type S launch is at the same time or soon thereafter.

Then the new ILX is launched (6 months later or so), upgraded like the RDX, along with a Type S model. How does that muddle the picture? The more Type S models they have, the more credibility as a performance brand.

Keeping the ILX as a model (using the Acura plank and engines) would not require much investment and still could add 20-30,000 in sales each year.



Coming back to this -

The ILX does muddle the picture for a few reasons:

-The compact luxury sedan segment is the biggest luxury sales segment for non-SUVs. Having a legit vehicle in this segment is a MUST if you're going to push any kind of sales success.

-The ILX and TLX are currently both classified as compact sedans. I know that they are very different - but the numbers are what they are. As I said in another post - certainly having TWO sedans in the same size segment is a bad idea when sedan sales are completely in the tank.

-And, thus, the muddling. For Acura has to push one car as their main alternative to the A4, C-class and 3 series. Moving forward that car has to be the TLX because it already is that car. They can't push the TLX "up" because pushing vehicles up a size segment is a recipe for disaster (see the CTS). I'm also of the opinion that the TLX should not be a "tweener" because that also further muddles the picture if the ILX stays around and remains a compact (as in - which car is their 3 series alternative?). It's better for Acura to just have one vehicle in this space.

-Even if the ILX becomes a "subcompact" like the A3 is - the pricing and the overlap are still there. Acura and the TLX don't have the same credibility as the A4 or the C-class. They also will NEVER have as many models as those brands do - why would they waste one of their model slots on a car that starts below $30,000 and has a price ceiling of $40,000? (See note about ATP below) A 186" TLX will do EVERYTHING an ILX would do except do it for $5,000 more AND with a price ceiling that is $10-$15,000 higher. Especially if they keep a 1.5T TLX around for under $35K.

-The idea that a properly done ILX could add 20-30,000 sales a year is ridiculous.

-Acura has the lowest Average Transaction Price of any luxury brand. We constantly hear complaints about how the lineup doesn't support the NSX - it also does nothing to support the RLX. Acura needs to find ways to have people spend more money. Better execution is part of the equation - the OTHER part is structuring the lineup so that people have multiple opportunities to move up. Look at how many non-SUV options Audi has the $40-$50K range. S3, A4, A5, A5 lift back, A6, A4 all road. Acura has...ONE non-SUV option - the V6 TLX (OK almost the I4 Aspec). I'm sure you could get a base RLX for under $50K - but the advertised MSRP is $54k. And obviously nobody is making that particular move.

-I'm of the opinion that Acura needs more options in that $40-50K pricing space and that keeping the ILX around just limits their ability to add models into that space because Acura will never have 7 or 8 non-SUV options. They're likely to have 2-3 sedans and maybe a coupe or a hatch.

-Acura needs to push the lineup "up-market" and having the TLX be a proper compact with nothing beneath it gives them the most pricing room, most size room and most "slots" to play with in the $40K+ range.



Credibility? They have no credibility because they offered a shit model in the ILX from the get-go. Make it class leading (or close to it), like the RDX, and they will have the needed credibility. Let see what the luxury competition offers when it comes to size:

Audi
A3 - 176"
A4 - 186"

BMW
2-series - 175" (possible sedan coming as well, similar in size)
3-series - 182.5" (next gen coming later this year is growing some)

Mercedes
CLA - 182"
C-class - 184.5"

And for Acura:

Acura
ILX - 182"
TLX - 191"

The least of the problems the ILX has is the size of the vehicle. Being based on a previous gen Civic platform, "meh" interior and only one okay powertrain offering are its main/major problems (once again, the crappy launch of the vehicle did nothing to help).

Acura can easily fix the major problems with using a shortened TLX platform and only offering 2.0T engines (like the A3). You suggest using a 1.5T in the TLX? That is a dumb idea and would hurt the brand more than keeping the ILX around.



First off, Acura dealers should be glad that they at least have the RDX.

Secondly, I am trying to imagine anyone who would venture into an Acura dealer interested in purchasing an ILX?

I would think that it would be far better to remove the ILX from the market until it has been reimagined as a viable sedan, especially in a declining market segment!

Someone at Acura truly has their head up their Ass!





I know one person who has bought one recently, and I see another now on my way to work everyday.


The next gen Civic is arguably a superior design, for less money.

CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 22:35
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smArt wrote:
CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
I like what Acura is doing by giving priority to their volume selling models while rumored to be working on multiple models simultaneously.

I think the ILX has it's place in the Acura lineup especially since the next gen TLX will probably be making a big leap in quality from where it's at now. This gives room for the ILX to be the entry vehicle to the Acura brand while the TLX can be a true premium vehicle in the entry luxury division of the market.




It shouldnít be about the quality level. It should be about offering various sizes, price points, etc. But the quality standards should be set to a level suitable for a premium brand. This is why I would prefer to see the next ILX derived from the next TLX and not something like the Civic, just as I would deem it a mistake to derive a CDX from the HRV.



Quality and refinement is the big factor when it comes to premium products. Acura is playing in a field where this matters. I see what you're saying about Acura not making the ILX a Civic in a tux and it doesn't have to be. There is a gap between the Civic/Accord and TLX that the ILX fits in quite nicely (size of the Civic, a little more refined than Accord, SH-AWD, Type S, Typer R?)

The new A class is not at the same level of quality as a C class and shouldn't be. Every MB model moves up in quality and refinement, the higher the segment goes. That's how it should be moving forward with Acura products. The next MDX should be at a higher level of quality than the RDX. I think what is confusing things is the current TLX. This current gen is not the standard for the TLX moving forward and certainly not the standard for the segment. The next TLX has to come out swinging. The ILX can fill the position of still being a premium car while being smaller, cheaper and a little less premium than the next TLX, just like the next A/CLA is to the C class.




I donít agree that the MDX should be of a higher quality than the RDX. It should be a larger, three-row version of the RDX for those looking for a vehicle with greater capacity. Yet I donít think it should be about setting up the MDX to be seen as an upgrade on the RDX in terms of overall quality. The RDX is a five-passenger SUV with moderate cargo capacity. The MDX is a much bigger vehicle. They would appeal to a different group of buyers with different needs. What you donít want is to produce an RDX that is a step down in quality because for the buyer who isnít in the market for a three-row SUV but does want a vehicle configured like the RDX, the higher quality of the MDX is beside the point. Yes the MDX would offer up higher quality but the person in the market for a five-seat SUV would be assessing the RDXís quality and not even care how much better the MDX was in that regard.

I suspect that the MDX will not serve up an interior that is a cut above the impressive interior Acura has put into the new RDX. Itís a major step up for Acura and I suspect itís what we can expect will all of the full re-designs in the pipeline. Not delivering the best it can in the RDX to leave room to upgrade for the MDX would have been a mistake.

This applies across the board.



superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 23:13
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CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
I like what Acura is doing by giving priority to their volume selling models while rumored to be working on multiple models simultaneously.

I think the ILX has it's place in the Acura lineup especially since the next gen TLX will probably be making a big leap in quality from where it's at now. This gives room for the ILX to be the entry vehicle to the Acura brand while the TLX can be a true premium vehicle in the entry luxury division of the market.




It shouldnít be about the quality level. It should be about offering various sizes, price points, etc. But the quality standards should be set to a level suitable for a premium brand. This is why I would prefer to see the next ILX derived from the next TLX and not something like the Civic, just as I would deem it a mistake to derive a CDX from the HRV.



Quality and refinement is the big factor when it comes to premium products. Acura is playing in a field where this matters. I see what you're saying about Acura not making the ILX a Civic in a tux and it doesn't have to be. There is a gap between the Civic/Accord and TLX that the ILX fits in quite nicely (size of the Civic, a little more refined than Accord, SH-AWD, Type S, Typer R?)

The new A class is not at the same level of quality as a C class and shouldn't be. Every MB model moves up in quality and refinement, the higher the segment goes. That's how it should be moving forward with Acura products. The next MDX should be at a higher level of quality than the RDX. I think what is confusing things is the current TLX. This current gen is not the standard for the TLX moving forward and certainly not the standard for the segment. The next TLX has to come out swinging. The ILX can fill the position of still being a premium car while being smaller, cheaper and a little less premium than the next TLX, just like the next A/CLA is to the C class.




I donít agree that the MDX should be of a higher quality than the RDX. It should be a larger, three-row version of the RDX for those looking for a vehicle with greater capacity. Yet I donít think it should be about setting up the MDX to be seen as an upgrade on the RDX in terms of overall quality. The RDX is a five-passenger SUV with moderate cargo capacity. The MDX is a much bigger vehicle. They would appeal to a different group of buyers with different needs. What you donít want is to produce an RDX that is a step down in quality because for the buyer who isnít in the market for a three-row SUV but does want a vehicle configured like the RDX, the higher quality of the MDX is beside the point. Yes the MDX would offer up higher quality but the person in the market for a five-seat SUV would be assessing the RDXís quality and not even care how much better the MDX was in that regard.

I suspect that the MDX will not serve up an interior that is a cut above the impressive interior Acura has put into the new RDX. Itís a major step up for Acura and I suspect itís what we can expect will all of the full re-designs in the pipeline. Not delivering the best it can in the RDX to leave room to upgrade for the MDX would have been a mistake.

This applies across the board.




The new RDX seems to be extremely high in quality and
it makes no sense that they would leave something out to move customers to the next level.

This car will bring buyers back to Acura. Hopefully, their next fully revised model will continue this trend.


Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 00:26
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CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
I like what Acura is doing by giving priority to their volume selling models while rumored to be working on multiple models simultaneously.

I think the ILX has it's place in the Acura lineup especially since the next gen TLX will probably be making a big leap in quality from where it's at now. This gives room for the ILX to be the entry vehicle to the Acura brand while the TLX can be a true premium vehicle in the entry luxury division of the market.




It shouldnít be about the quality level. It should be about offering various sizes, price points, etc. But the quality standards should be set to a level suitable for a premium brand. This is why I would prefer to see the next ILX derived from the next TLX and not something like the Civic, just as I would deem it a mistake to derive a CDX from the HRV.



Quality and refinement is the big factor when it comes to premium products. Acura is playing in a field where this matters. I see what you're saying about Acura not making the ILX a Civic in a tux and it doesn't have to be. There is a gap between the Civic/Accord and TLX that the ILX fits in quite nicely (size of the Civic, a little more refined than Accord, SH-AWD, Type S, Typer R?)

The new A class is not at the same level of quality as a C class and shouldn't be. Every MB model moves up in quality and refinement, the higher the segment goes. That's how it should be moving forward with Acura products. The next MDX should be at a higher level of quality than the RDX. I think what is confusing things is the current TLX. This current gen is not the standard for the TLX moving forward and certainly not the standard for the segment. The next TLX has to come out swinging. The ILX can fill the position of still being a premium car while being smaller, cheaper and a little less premium than the next TLX, just like the next A/CLA is to the C class.




I donít agree that the MDX should be of a higher quality than the RDX. It should be a larger, three-row version of the RDX for those looking for a vehicle with greater capacity. Yet I donít think it should be about setting up the MDX to be seen as an upgrade on the RDX in terms of overall quality. The RDX is a five-passenger SUV with moderate cargo capacity. The MDX is a much bigger vehicle. They would appeal to a different group of buyers with different needs. What you donít want is to produce an RDX that is a step down in quality because for the buyer who isnít in the market for a three-row SUV but does want a vehicle configured like the RDX, the higher quality of the MDX is beside the point. Yes the MDX would offer up higher quality but the person in the market for a five-seat SUV would be assessing the RDXís quality and not even care how much better the MDX was in that regard.

I suspect that the MDX will not serve up an interior that is a cut above the impressive interior Acura has put into the new RDX. Itís a major step up for Acura and I suspect itís what we can expect will all of the full re-designs in the pipeline. Not delivering the best it can in the RDX to leave room to upgrade for the MDX would have been a mistake.

This applies across the board.




Just when I thought you were finally coming around. without a doubt the MDX is higher in the food chain and will have a better interior than the RDX. I finally got to check out the RDX and while a huge leap from the last generation interior still room for improvement IMO. The rear for example seems to have much harder surfaces and no wood accents is an omission, but the minor shortcomings are acceptable for the class and still a great effort. The MDX will have to improve on this foundation however. The MDX will likely add softer materials, more adjustable seat positions, full LCD for the precision cockpit, better stereo and obviously the current items it has that the RDX doesn't offer. As you move up the chain the perceived quality must also move up. The RDX interior as nice as it is would need to be better in what I am sure will be an over 60k SUV considering the current one is approaching 60k.

CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 10:18
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Determining what exactly Acura has in mind re the relationship between where the bar is set for the MDX vs the smaller, less expensive RDX will have to wait for the upcoming MDX redesign. Still, as the bar is raised further down the roster, it becomes increasingly difficult to set the pricier model apart in that regard.

Considering the price point for the RDX hasnít changed that much, it does appear that Acura intends to remain the price leader among upmarket brands. Acura offerings generally are thousands of dollars cheaper than comparably equipped BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, etc. That substantial price difference applies to the MDX, as much as any other Acura volume offering.

A few minor material upgrades Iím sure could be applied to the MDX and why not considering the cost is minimal, really. But for the most part, I suspect what we just got with the RDX is pretty much what we can expect in all of Acuraís volume offerings in the upcoming round of redesigns.

Competition both above and below the RDX (in terms of MSRP) leaves no room to hold the RDX back and it appears, for the most part, that Acura has not. This is an approach that will serve Acura well if in fact it represents a shift in philosophy. Better that the models at the lower end of the spectrum show well against all comers than they be held back to make the costlier Acuras seem like that much more of a step up.


lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 12:54
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CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
I like what Acura is doing by giving priority to their volume selling models while rumored to be working on multiple models simultaneously.

I think the ILX has it's place in the Acura lineup especially since the next gen TLX will probably be making a big leap in quality from where it's at now. This gives room for the ILX to be the entry vehicle to the Acura brand while the TLX can be a true premium vehicle in the entry luxury division of the market.




It shouldnít be about the quality level. It should be about offering various sizes, price points, etc. But the quality standards should be set to a level suitable for a premium brand. This is why I would prefer to see the next ILX derived from the next TLX and not something like the Civic, just as I would deem it a mistake to derive a CDX from the HRV.



Quality and refinement is the big factor when it comes to premium products. Acura is playing in a field where this matters. I see what you're saying about Acura not making the ILX a Civic in a tux and it doesn't have to be. There is a gap between the Civic/Accord and TLX that the ILX fits in quite nicely (size of the Civic, a little more refined than Accord, SH-AWD, Type S, Typer R?)

The new A class is not at the same level of quality as a C class and shouldn't be. Every MB model moves up in quality and refinement, the higher the segment goes. That's how it should be moving forward with Acura products. The next MDX should be at a higher level of quality than the RDX. I think what is confusing things is the current TLX. This current gen is not the standard for the TLX moving forward and certainly not the standard for the segment. The next TLX has to come out swinging. The ILX can fill the position of still being a premium car while being smaller, cheaper and a little less premium than the next TLX, just like the next A/CLA is to the C class.




I donít agree that the MDX should be of a higher quality than the RDX. It should be a larger, three-row version of the RDX for those looking for a vehicle with greater capacity. Yet I donít think it should be about setting up the MDX to be seen as an upgrade on the RDX in terms of overall quality. The RDX is a five-passenger SUV with moderate cargo capacity. The MDX is a much bigger vehicle. They would appeal to a different group of buyers with different needs. What you donít want is to produce an RDX that is a step down in quality because for the buyer who isnít in the market for a three-row SUV but does want a vehicle configured like the RDX, the higher quality of the MDX is beside the point. Yes the MDX would offer up higher quality but the person in the market for a five-seat SUV would be assessing the RDXís quality and not even care how much better the MDX was in that regard.

I suspect that the MDX will not serve up an interior that is a cut above the impressive interior Acura has put into the new RDX. Itís a major step up for Acura and I suspect itís what we can expect will all of the full re-designs in the pipeline. Not delivering the best it can in the RDX to leave room to upgrade for the MDX would have been a mistake.

This applies across the board.




The MDX has to offer a higher quality more luxurious interior then the new RDX. That is how it goes when you step up to more expensive larger vehicles, they also have more features, more luxury, more attention to detail or else why spend the premium.

Most people will not spend much more on a CUV or sedan just to get a little more room or extra seats unless it also has more luxury, power, features, etc(why the RLX does not sell). When you step up to a S class, 7 series, or LS you get a nicer vehicle then a C/E class, 3/5 series, or IS/GS, not just a larger roomier vehicle.

Just putting the RDX interior in a MDX or vehicles above it is a recipe for disaster and it won't cut it, they need to be distinct and have interiors that are a step above a entry level CUV even if the RDX has gone up in quality, the cars above it need to be even nicer.

smArt
Profile for smArt
Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 13:23
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lexusgs wrote:
CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
CarmB wrote:
smArt wrote:
I like what Acura is doing by giving priority to their volume selling models while rumored to be working on multiple models simultaneously.

I think the ILX has it's place in the Acura lineup especially since the next gen TLX will probably be making a big leap in quality from where it's at now. This gives room for the ILX to be the entry vehicle to the Acura brand while the TLX can be a true premium vehicle in the entry luxury division of the market.




It shouldnít be about the quality level. It should be about offering various sizes, price points, etc. But the quality standards should be set to a level suitable for a premium brand. This is why I would prefer to see the next ILX derived from the next TLX and not something like the Civic, just as I would deem it a mistake to derive a CDX from the HRV.



Quality and refinement is the big factor when it comes to premium products. Acura is playing in a field where this matters. I see what you're saying about Acura not making the ILX a Civic in a tux and it doesn't have to be. There is a gap between the Civic/Accord and TLX that the ILX fits in quite nicely (size of the Civic, a little more refined than Accord, SH-AWD, Type S, Typer R?)

The new A class is not at the same level of quality as a C class and shouldn't be. Every MB model moves up in quality and refinement, the higher the segment goes. That's how it should be moving forward with Acura products. The next MDX should be at a higher level of quality than the RDX. I think what is confusing things is the current TLX. This current gen is not the standard for the TLX moving forward and certainly not the standard for the segment. The next TLX has to come out swinging. The ILX can fill the position of still being a premium car while being smaller, cheaper and a little less premium than the next TLX, just like the next A/CLA is to the C class.




I donít agree that the MDX should be of a higher quality than the RDX. It should be a larger, three-row version of the RDX for those looking for a vehicle with greater capacity. Yet I donít think it should be about setting up the MDX to be seen as an upgrade on the RDX in terms of overall quality. The RDX is a five-passenger SUV with moderate cargo capacity. The MDX is a much bigger vehicle. They would appeal to a different group of buyers with different needs. What you donít want is to produce an RDX that is a step down in quality because for the buyer who isnít in the market for a three-row SUV but does want a vehicle configured like the RDX, the higher quality of the MDX is beside the point. Yes the MDX would offer up higher quality but the person in the market for a five-seat SUV would be assessing the RDXís quality and not even care how much better the MDX was in that regard.

I suspect that the MDX will not serve up an interior that is a cut above the impressive interior Acura has put into the new RDX. Itís a major step up for Acura and I suspect itís what we can expect will all of the full re-designs in the pipeline. Not delivering the best it can in the RDX to leave room to upgrade for the MDX would have been a mistake.

This applies across the board.




The MDX has to offer a higher quality more luxurious interior then the new RDX. That is how it goes when you step up to more expensive larger vehicles, they also have more features, more luxury, more attention to detail or else why spend the premium.

Most people will not spend much more on a CUV or sedan just to get a little more room or extra seats unless it also has more luxury, power, features, etc(why the RLX does not sell). When you step up to a S class, 7 series, or LS you get a nicer vehicle then a C/E class, 3/5 series, or IS/GS, not just a larger roomier vehicle.

Just putting the RDX interior in a MDX or vehicles above it is a recipe for disaster and it won't cut it, they need to be distinct and have interiors that are a step above a entry level CUV even if the RDX has gone up in quality, the cars above it need to be even nicer.



+1

CarmB
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 17:54
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Poor Acura is in a no-win situation. If the RDX isnít high-end enough to be taken seriously as a premium offering then Acura has failed. If the MDX isnít significantly upgraded compared to the RDX then Acura has failed. So hereís the challenge. Take the RDX upmarket in interior execution yet deliver an MDX that delivers interior quality that is completely out of whack with the modelís likely MSRP range. If Acura dramatically increased the MDXís MSRP then perhaps the drastic upgrade over what has been delivered in the latest RDX could happen. Yet, if the RDX has come in at a similar price point to the previous generation, it likely will be ditto for the MDX. That means roughly a $7,000 price difference and considering the MDX is significantly larger than the RDX, most of that is eaten up by the size difference alone.

Go through the options list of most German premium brands and see how much extra $7,000 buys you.

If the MDX came in $7,000 higher than the RDX and they were similarly configured (similarly sized five-passenger SUVs), that would change the equation. This is a different game than the one being played by other competitors. For instance, the price difference between a base BMW 3 Series and a base 5 Series is $18,500. Jump up from the X3 range to the X5 range and the MSRP leaps $16,200. I donít anticipate the next MDX going up in price much at all, let alone increasing the gap between it and the RDX to the tune of $9,200.

Expecting the MDX to be a significant upgrade over the RDX would also mean advocating that instead of the models being about $7,000 apart in base form they be more like $16,000 apart. Iím not liking the chances of that dramatic change in approach ending well for Acura. Consumers tend to react adversely to being asked to pay that much more for a redesign.

It needs to be kept in mind that the MDX is a solid seller at its current price point. I doubt Acura would be prepared to mess with that. Hard to make a case for such a drastic change in direction.


incubus
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 19:20
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Fitdad wrote:
Execution alone wonít save Acura. They need to structure their lineup properly. I submit that continuing on with having two compact sedans in the ILX and TLX is a mistake and Acura would be wise to rethink the entry point into their non-SUV lineup.

I disagree. There are plenty of city dwellers who wouldnít even consider a TLX on size alone, but would go for a fully loaded, semi-luxury smaller sedan.

TurkMan71
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 19:52
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Some food for thought:

I was helping my mom shop for used small/midsize luxury SUV. We were mostly looking at last generation X3s and Q5s (2014-17). We also looked at a Lexus NX as well as an RX. Her favorite interior was the Audi, followed by the X3, and the Lexi were a distant third. Just for the fun of it, she sat in a new RDX and she said it was ok but cheaper feeling/looking than the older German models - that should be a concern if other shoppers feel the same way. She has always liked the clean, classic German look...

So yes the new RDX is an improvement but does it walk away from everything in its class, especially if money isnít a huge factor? No, unfortunately.

I also think the new MDXís interior needs to be a step up from the RDX. It just makes sense...youíre not just paying for the extra size and room.

The new Lincoln Navigator is selling like crazy at 90k, itís not just because itís a behemoth...

sadlerau
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 21:04
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TurkMan71 wrote:
Some food for thought:

I was helping my mom shop for used small/midsize luxury SUV. We were mostly looking at last generation X3s and Q5s (2014-17). We also looked at a Lexus NX as well as an RX. Her favorite interior was the Audi, followed by the X3, and the Lexi were a distant third. Just for the fun of it, she sat in a new RDX and she said it was ok but cheaper feeling/looking than the older German models - that should be a concern if other shoppers feel the same way. She has always liked the clean, classic German look...

So yes the new RDX is an improvement but does it walk away from everything in its class, especially if money isnít a huge factor? No, unfortunately.

I also think the new MDXís interior needs to be a step up from the RDX. It just makes sense...youíre not just paying for the extra size and room.

The new Lincoln Navigator is selling like crazy at 90k, itís not just because itís a behemoth...



I'm preferencing what I write with the fact I've only seen the RDX interior in photos.

To my "seniors" eye the RDX's dash aesthetics looks a whole step down on the German designs in general. Of course I am biased in the sense I get to sit in the A6 which sings to me as luxury and superficially good ergonomic design (there are a couple of design features that don't suit me) and the materials are holding up much better than what my Legend did!

Indeed the latest Accord's interior looks more upscale to me than Acura's latest effort.

Of course that may just be a generational thing, but one wonders why the Germans stick to a strongly horizontal design......

Calgarian
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 23:22
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Well luckily that is just her opinion as most I have talked to who have driven the new RDX have stated the exact opposite. The only thing stopping people from buying what is undoubtably the best in class suv is the badge.

TurkMan71
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 00:21
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It may be a generational thing like Sadlerau said...my mom is 78 :-)

But yea, horizontal seems like the classic way to go plus it accentuates the width of the cabin...

Personally, I think there were plenty of hard surfaces in all the models we sat in, with that cheap, hollow-sounding thud when you tap on it. I think the RDX could have used a little more authentic medal/wood and a little less piano black finish. I also think (and my mom agreed) all the interiors, including the RDX, look better in two-tone...

CarmB
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 10:10
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TurkMan71 wrote:
Some food for thought:

I was helping my mom shop for used small/midsize luxury SUV. We were mostly looking at last generation X3s and Q5s (2014-17). We also looked at a Lexus NX as well as an RX. Her favorite interior was the Audi, followed by the X3, and the Lexi were a distant third. Just for the fun of it, she sat in a new RDX and she said it was ok but cheaper feeling/looking than the older German models - that should be a concern if other shoppers feel the same way. She has always liked the clean, classic German look...

So yes the new RDX is an improvement but does it walk away from everything in its class, especially if money isnít a huge factor? No, unfortunately.

I also think the new MDXís interior needs to be a step up from the RDX. It just makes sense...youíre not just paying for the extra size and room.

The new Lincoln Navigator is selling like crazy at 90k, itís not just because itís a behemoth...



My point is that at a $7,000 premium, for the most part, you really are paying just enough to cover extra size and room. Keep in mind that in order to deliver comparable performance, the MDX - being a heavier vehicle likely to haul more at times - requires a more powerful engine. That alone adds thousands to the cost.

lexusgs
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 12:30
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CarmB wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
Some food for thought:

I was helping my mom shop for used small/midsize luxury SUV. We were mostly looking at last generation X3s and Q5s (2014-17). We also looked at a Lexus NX as well as an RX. Her favorite interior was the Audi, followed by the X3, and the Lexi were a distant third. Just for the fun of it, she sat in a new RDX and she said it was ok but cheaper feeling/looking than the older German models - that should be a concern if other shoppers feel the same way. She has always liked the clean, classic German look...

So yes the new RDX is an improvement but does it walk away from everything in its class, especially if money isnít a huge factor? No, unfortunately.

I also think the new MDXís interior needs to be a step up from the RDX. It just makes sense...youíre not just paying for the extra size and room.

The new Lincoln Navigator is selling like crazy at 90k, itís not just because itís a behemoth...



My point is that at a $7,000 premium, for the most part, you really are paying just enough to cover extra size and room. Keep in mind that in order to deliver comparable performance, the MDX - being a heavier vehicle likely to haul more at times - requires a more powerful engine. That alone adds thousands to the cost.



Not really, it does not cost that much to make a larger vehicle if that is all you do, make the vehicle larger but little else. If that was the case the Toyota Avalon would have been a expensive sedan as it has always had similar room to a Lexus LS. Chevy Caprices, Impalas, and Grand Marquis were big sedans, some RWD, yet did not cost much. Same with big minivans like Odysseys, Sienna's, etc. It is not that expensive to build a big vehicle, you are only talking about maybe a few hundred dollars in extra steel/aluminum and a couple hundred to maybe a thousand for extra seats.

The reason luxury car makers charge so much extra once you go up in size/segment is simply because they can and people will pay it, not because it costs so much more to build a larger car and give it some more luxury.

3 series is normally bought by younger single people without kids, they assume they don't have as much money so they price it accordingly, 5 series are more commonly bought by older people who are married and have kids so they figure they have more money and price it accordingly, 7 series is normally bought by even older people, mostly very successful, with a lot of money who want top of the line and they price it accordingly but it is doubtful its really costs BMW or Mercedes so much money between model lines just to build the larger vehicles even with some more luxury, they make a ton of profit on the E class/5 series and S class/7 series, much more so then a 3 series or C class because of how much of a premium they charge for the larger cars, the E class is or was Mercedes most profitable vehicle based on sales even though they sell many more C class.

Acura can certainly do a MDX with a nicer more upscale interior then a RDX and not charge a ton more then the $7000 premium. The MDX has always been a larger nicer vehicle then the RDX, it has always had a nicer interior to go along with the added size and they still did not charge the hefty premium like the Germans do which is why both vehicles have been pretty successful for Acura. A MDX is not just a RDX with extra seats, it is built on a bigger more upscale platform, has a more powerful engine, more advanced AWD system, and it has more luxury/features.


CarmB
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 19:53
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lexusgs wrote:
CarmB wrote:
TurkMan71 wrote:
Some food for thought:

I was helping my mom shop for used small/midsize luxury SUV. We were mostly looking at last generation X3s and Q5s (2014-17). We also looked at a Lexus NX as well as an RX. Her favorite interior was the Audi, followed by the X3, and the Lexi were a distant third. Just for the fun of it, she sat in a new RDX and she said it was ok but cheaper feeling/looking than the older German models - that should be a concern if other shoppers feel the same way. She has always liked the clean, classic German look...

So yes the new RDX is an improvement but does it walk away from everything in its class, especially if money isnít a huge factor? No, unfortunately.

I also think the new MDXís interior needs to be a step up from the RDX. It just makes sense...youíre not just paying for the extra size and room.

The new Lincoln Navigator is selling like crazy at 90k, itís not just because itís a behemoth...





My point is that at a $7,000 premium, for the most part, you really are paying just enough to cover extra size and room. Keep in mind that in order to deliver comparable performance, the MDX - being a heavier vehicle likely to haul more at times - requires a more powerful engine. That alone adds thousands to the cost.



Not really, it does not cost that much to make a larger vehicle if that is all you do, make the vehicle larger but little else. If that was the case the Toyota Avalon would have been a expensive sedan as it has always had similar room to a Lexus LS. Chevy Caprices, Impalas, and Grand Marquis were big sedans, some RWD, yet did not cost much. Same with big minivans like Odysseys, Sienna's, etc. It is not that expensive to build a big vehicle, you are only talking about maybe a few hundred dollars in extra steel/aluminum and a couple hundred to maybe a thousand for extra seats.

The reason luxury car makers charge so much extra once you go up in size/segment is simply because they can and people will pay it, not because it costs so much more to build a larger car and give it some more luxury.

3 series is normally bought by younger single people without kids, they assume they don't have as much money so they price it accordingly, 5 series are more commonly bought by older people who are married and have kids so they figure they have more money and price it accordingly, 7 series is normally bought by even older people, mostly very successful, with a lot of money who want top of the line and they price it accordingly but it is doubtful its really costs BMW or Mercedes so much money between model lines just to build the larger vehicles even with some more luxury, they make a ton of profit on the E class/5 series and S class/7 series, much more so then a 3 series or C class because of how much of a premium they charge for the larger cars, the E class is or was Mercedes most profitable vehicle based on sales even though they sell many more C class.

Acura can certainly do a MDX with a nicer more upscale interior then a RDX and not charge a ton more then the $7000 premium. The MDX has always been a larger nicer vehicle then the RDX, it has always had a nicer interior to go along with the added size and they still did not charge the hefty premium like the Germans do which is why both vehicles have been pretty successful for Acura. A MDX is not just a RDX with extra seats, it is built on a bigger more upscale platform, has a more powerful engine, more advanced AWD system, and it has more luxury/features.




The number of features in an RDX depends on which version you buy. You donít need to buy an MDX to get more features because you can just pay more and get more features in the RDX instead.

Again, letís not forget that the MDX is not exactly a more upmarket version of the RDX. The RDX is a five-seater and the MDX is a three-row. Different beasts. If you tell someone shopping for a five-seater that only by opting for a three-row can you get an interior of a particular calibre, what youíre saying is in effect, ďIf you canít accept going with a three-row, we donít want to sell you a vehicle after all.Ē

Acura doesnít offer a range of five-seat SUVs. It only makes one. There is a rumor that itís looking at making a second smaller five-seater but thatís not something in the mix today. As such, for someone with zero interest in a three-row and who wants a five-seater exclusively, the interior offered in the RDX is all that matters. There is no Plan B.

Acura only offers a handful of models. Canít afford to hold back any product in order to position another.

Seems to me that Acura needs to build its cars - all its cars - to a higher standard than has been the case in recent years. This is what it appears to be doing with the brand new RDX. If it means that the RDX and MDX are not going to be as far apart in interior quality as had been the case, what of it.

They are separate products aimed at different segments and frankly I doubt it matters how much more upmarket the MDX is in interior design compared to the RDX. It matters more that both the RDX and MDX are compelling products all around.

This applies across the board and what that means is that you donít do the ILX to a lower standard to make it easier to make the TLX look better. Acura did that sort of thing for years and look where it got them.

The new RDX is here and reviews are quite good. Itís a good thing, yes? When the MDX redesign arrives, it will be judged on its own merits and, really, the RDX will not enter the equation. They donít compete, not even close. The automotive press will not likely judge how the MDX stacks up against the RDX. Rather it will talk about how the MDX stacks up as a premium three-row. It will likely compare it to other three-rows. Thatís not the RDX.



superchg2
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Re: 2019 ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 20:00
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CarmB wrote:

The new RDX is here and reviews are quite good. Itís a good thing, yes? When the MDX redesign arrives, it will be judged on its own merits and, really, the RDX will not enter the equation. They donít compete, not even close. The automotive press will not likely judge how the MDX stacks up against the RDX. Rather it will talk about how the MDX stacks up as a premium three-row. It will likely compare it to other three-rows. Thatís not the RDX.


You've summed it up pretty well here, CarmB.


 
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