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TOV Forums > Type R > > Re: Such a damn nice car

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TonyEX
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Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-11-2018 22:12
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Jeez....

And it's only FWD.

I was looking at this black CTR at work.... OMG, it's soooo nice.

It it only had SH-AWD I would have pulled the trigger by now. It would fit nicely in my garage with a car cover.

Weekend driver.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 00:38
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Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 00:53
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sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.


BG
Profile for BG
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 04:33
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TonyEx, you do realise that Sadlerau has or had a Legend Shawd, he currently owns a Gen 1 NSX and has lots of experience in motor racing, so if he says it's good, I'd be inclined take his word on it.

Technology moves on and if ATTS was so advanced, why isn't still around?

Also with the CTR is still winning awards 1 year after launch, it must be that good.



Mechanic
Profile for Mechanic
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 05:41
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I agree with TonyEX: A car cover is a must.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 06:26
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BG wrote:
TonyEx, you do realise that Sadlerau has or had a Legend Shawd, he currently owns a Gen 1 NSX and has lots of experience in motor racing, so if he says it's good, I'd be inclined take his word on it.

Technology moves on and if ATTS was so advanced, why isn't still around?

Also with the CTR is still winning awards 1 year after launch, it must be that good.





It sort of is still very much around, in the form of torque vectoring control.

Admittedly, this is often done by brake vectoring as a simplified alternative to the ATTS lump of a differential.

My cognitive dissonance makes me want two versions; the CTR as is, plus some sort of 'grown-up' Integra SH-AWD version. They'd be two very different flavours of the same thing and then we could do a meaningful comparison.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 19:42
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TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...

RMTRADER
Profile for RMTRADER
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 19:52
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owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...



No crap. Tony. Stick to CRV's.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 20:12
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RMTRADER wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...



No crap. Tony. Stick to CRV's.



(1) I don't have a CRV. As it was, we had two once upon a time. Both were AWD which really helped out with the understeering common to FWD vehicles.

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.




TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 20:22
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Nick GravesX wrote:
BG wrote:
TonyEx, you do realise that Sadlerau has or had a Legend Shawd, he currently owns a Gen 1 NSX and has lots of experience in motor racing, so if he says it's good, I'd be inclined take his word on it.

Technology moves on and if ATTS was so advanced, why isn't still around?

Also with the CTR is still winning awards 1 year after launch, it must be that good.





It sort of is still very much around, in the form of torque vectoring control.

Admittedly, this is often done by brake vectoring as a simplified alternative to the ATTS lump of a differential.

My cognitive dissonance makes me want two versions; the CTR as is, plus some sort of 'grown-up' Integra SH-AWD version. They'd be two very different flavours of the same thing and then we could do a meaningful comparison.



So far as I know, SH-AWD is an outgrowth of ATTS. And the reason why FWD ATTS per se is not around anymore is because it put a limitation on how much torque/power it could handle and it was expensive. If you're going to go to ACTIVE torque vectoring, you might as well go the whole hog and do AWD with it.

But, if you can get your hands on an SH, check it out. It was simply a complete neutral car in a turn. No understeer, no oversteer...

I see the CTR as more of a handful on the roads, mind you its limits are pretty high already, likely I would never reach its limits since I don't track my cars. But, since this would be a "toy" I figure I'd want to go SH-AWD.

Yes, the putative ILX-S4 or ILX-R4 would make me open my wallet without a second thought. (I tend to think before I spend my money).

BTW, I'm curious. Is the current CTR a smooth running car or is it a harsh car? It seems that with the adaptive suspension it can be both. Does this make the current CTR then an Si while the current Si becomes nothing more than a glorified Sport LX?




superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 20:24
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TonyEX wrote:
RMTRADER wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...



No crap. Tony. Stick to CRV's.



(1) I don't have a CRV. As it was, we had two once upon a time. Both were AWD which really helped out with the understeering common to FWD vehicles.

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.





I've never noticed that in my 8th gen. Plus it has the K20 engine!

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 22:06
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TonyEX wrote:

No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.



I agree that a SH-AWD equipped chassis will be much faster and safer than an LSD equipped FWD [I ought to know, having espoused SH-AWD on these pages before anyone else had woken up :)]. But the difference may not be as big as you imagine, when the Civic's chassis is so well tied down.

Anyway, a true "driver's car" is not necessarily about the ultimate's, but more about how it feels to the driver, and here I think the Type R is such a fantastic "driver's car" if it's being used only on weekends, strictly for driver enjoyment, then it's worth it, even without SH-AWD.

Secondly, to truly enjoy SH-AWD on a decent chassis, I don't think you'd have your licence for very long, and more importantly, you would be doing speeds that aren't really conducive to safe public road travel [not that I'd expect the Type R to be much slower].

bigblue
Profile for bigblue
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-12-2018 23:21
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TonyEX wrote:

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.


The Civic's just going to track true unless you're doing insane speeds (way above the limit), or the weather is completely hideous (to the level of frost or massive amounts of standing water). Just don't see it understeering or drifting unless under some extreme provocation above what you'd see on-road.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 01:23
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TonyEX wrote:
RMTRADER wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...



No crap. Tony. Stick to CRV's.



(1) I don't have a CRV. As it was, we had two once upon a time. Both were AWD which really helped out with the understeering common to FWD vehicles.

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.






2) Tony, visibly tightening the line when applying gas is NOT the same as binary. Binary implies that it is either working at max value or it is off. You COULD feel the LSD on the Si tighten the line, but it wasn't binary. It continued to the tighten the line as you applied more throttle until you reached the limits of adhesion. Sort of like a mile version of SH-AWD, which starts with steady state understeer and then tucks the line as you add power.

That said, we have already been over this more than once over the years, and it shows your limited experience with Honda LSD's. The point I made then and stand by now is that Honda CHOSE to make the LSD engagement more aggressive starting with the 8th gen Civic Si, and continued it with the 9th gen upon which your experience is based. Honda's older LSDs did NOT exhibit this characteristic and were much more linear in transition.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 10:55
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bigblue wrote:
TonyEX wrote:

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.


The Civic's just going to track true unless you're doing insane speeds (way above the limit), or the weather is completely hideous (to the level of frost or massive amounts of standing water). Just don't see it understeering or drifting unless under some extreme provocation above what you'd see on-road.




Precisely why I prefer the invincibility of SH-AWD. Even my Prelude was a bit over-powered for cold, wet off-the-line starts.

I'm not suggesting the CTR is bad and it does have torque-limiting nannies, but I see a four-door as more of an everyday car and not a weekend special.


typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 11:26
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You're memories of ATTS are improving with age. In back to back runs in a Prelude SH vs an Integra Type-R (back in 2002), both the SH owner and I preferred the more immediate response of the LSD from the Type-R. Particularly evident in slalom transitions the LSD had much quicker response and immediate engagement when on throttle.

TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 12:58
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typer_801 wrote:
You're memories of ATTS are improving with age. In back to back runs in a Prelude SH vs an Integra Type-R (back in 2002), both the SH owner and I preferred the more immediate response of the LSD from the Type-R. Particularly evident in slalom transitions the LSD had much quicker response and immediate engagement when on throttle.

TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.






I believe this is largely the reason Honda abandoned ATTS. It was much more complex, expensive, heavy and ultimately would have required more maintenance.

The LSD might not provide quite as much yaw, but it is not far behind and the other advantages outweigh the disadvantages IMO.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 15:37
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owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
RMTRADER wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...



No crap. Tony. Stick to CRV's.



(1) I don't have a CRV. As it was, we had two once upon a time. Both were AWD which really helped out with the understeering common to FWD vehicles.

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.






2) Tony, visibly tightening the line when applying gas is NOT the same as binary. Binary implies that it is either working at max value or it is off. You COULD feel the LSD on the Si tighten the line, but it wasn't binary. It continued to the tighten the line as you applied more throttle until you reached the limits of adhesion. Sort of like a mile version of SH-AWD, which starts with steady state understeer and then tucks the line as you add power.

That said, we have already been over this more than once over the years, and it shows your limited experience with Honda LSD's. The point I made then and stand by now is that Honda CHOSE to make the LSD engagement more aggressive starting with the 8th gen Civic Si, and continued it with the 9th gen upon which your experience is based. Honda's older LSDs did NOT exhibit this characteristic and were much more linear in transition.



Ay, are you being a bit hard core with semantics here?

Are you agreeing then that the 9th gen Si was more fun than the 8th?


;-)

Nothing is binary because there's always a histeresys to the behavior. You are doing a very strict interpretation of what I call "ON/OFF". It is ON and OFF because it is abrupt when compared with ATTS and SH-AWD. You can feel the nose moving around, whereas you would never feel that with ATTS (very proactive to the car's attitude and acceleration) and much less with SH-AWD ( much more linear than the LSD but "quicker" than ATTS ).

SH-AWD and ATTS are simply smoother and have significantly higher limits. Imagine an Si with SH-AWD, like others have said, you could not find its limits on open roads, except perhaps on rain/snow/ice. You'd be nuts to try to find its limits outside of a race track or private road.

Such a car, would be, for all purposes, a very neutral car.

Heck, an eSH-AWD would be the perfectly neutral car. It might be boring, as the 9th gen Si was when compared with the 8th gen, yet it would be faster.

Like they say... it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.


superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 16:04
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TonyEX wrote:

Are you agreeing then that the 9th gen Si was more fun than the 8th?



Except that it didn't have the K20!

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 16:42
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owequitit wrote:
typer_801 wrote:
You're memories of ATTS are improving with age. In back to back runs in a Prelude SH vs an Integra Type-R (back in 2002), both the SH owner and I preferred the more immediate response of the LSD from the Type-R. Particularly evident in slalom transitions the LSD had much quicker response and immediate engagement when on throttle.

TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.






I believe this is largely the reason Honda abandoned ATTS. It was much more complex, expensive, heavy and ultimately would have required more maintenance.

The LSD might not provide quite as much yaw, but it is not far behind and the other advantages outweigh the disadvantages IMO.



I never said which was more fun... I just want the stable and faster car.

Besides, it was not really fair to compare an ITR with an SH. The SH was way softer. My wife too swears by the ITR but the SH was a very good daily car.

Now, it would be a most interesting proposition to put SH-AWD in a CTR. As I noted, the current CTR has an adjustable suspension so it can be a Jekyll and Hyde: satisfying both daily commuter and weekend warrior.


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 19:56
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superchg2 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:

Are you agreeing then that the 9th gen Si was more fun than the 8th?



Except that it didn't have the K20!



That's right! It had the All Konquering K24 with a Mighty torque line that did not require going above 6200 rpm!

Perfect for laying out black lines.. sort of a junior Accord 6/6 with a much better clutch.

I guess we need to create the Civic Si Circular Argument.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-13-2018 23:46
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TonyEX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
RMTRADER wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...



No crap. Tony. Stick to CRV's.



(1) I don't have a CRV. As it was, we had two once upon a time. Both were AWD which really helped out with the understeering common to FWD vehicles.

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.






2) Tony, visibly tightening the line when applying gas is NOT the same as binary. Binary implies that it is either working at max value or it is off. You COULD feel the LSD on the Si tighten the line, but it wasn't binary. It continued to the tighten the line as you applied more throttle until you reached the limits of adhesion. Sort of like a mile version of SH-AWD, which starts with steady state understeer and then tucks the line as you add power.

That said, we have already been over this more than once over the years, and it shows your limited experience with Honda LSD's. The point I made then and stand by now is that Honda CHOSE to make the LSD engagement more aggressive starting with the 8th gen Civic Si, and continued it with the 9th gen upon which your experience is based. Honda's older LSDs did NOT exhibit this characteristic and were much more linear in transition.



Ay, are you being a bit hard core with semantics here?

Are you agreeing then that the 9th gen Si was more fun than the 8th?


;-)

Nothing is binary because there's always a histeresys to the behavior. You are doing a very strict interpretation of what I call "ON/OFF". It is ON and OFF because it is abrupt when compared with ATTS and SH-AWD. You can feel the nose moving around, whereas you would never feel that with ATTS (very proactive to the car's attitude and acceleration) and much less with SH-AWD ( much more linear than the LSD but "quicker" than ATTS ).

SH-AWD and ATTS are simply smoother and have significantly higher limits. Imagine an Si with SH-AWD, like others have said, you could not find its limits on open roads, except perhaps on rain/snow/ice. You'd be nuts to try to find its limits outside of a race track or private road.

Such a car, would be, for all purposes, a very neutral car.

Heck, an eSH-AWD would be the perfectly neutral car. It might be boring, as the 9th gen Si was when compared with the 8th gen, yet it would be faster.

Like they say... it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.




No, actually Tony, you are the one dabbling in semantics.

The TORSEN LSD mechanically transfers torque. Produce more torque, and more torque gets transferred to the wheel with more traction. It is actually analog. In fact, other than NOT being able to overdrive the torque it is receiving by multiplying it through gears and clutches, which are heavy and (in the case of clutches) require maintenance. That is why you get 90% of the benefit for much less cost, complexity, weight and long term maintenance. You ultimately become limited by your ability to maintain traction and transfer available torque.

But again, your lack of experience with Honda LSD's is showing. The reason the Type-R was mentioned had nothing to do with suspension tuning, and EVERYTHING to do with its ability to transfer torque (just like the SH) under more power to tighten the handling line, so you are focusing on the wrong part of the comparison. It was also used specifically because prior to the 8th gen Si, it was the ONLY FWD Honda product to offer a TORSEN LSD and it was calibrated much differently than the one in the 8th and 9th gen Si, which was basically the same unit.

There is a reason that Honda didn't proliferate ATTS, but they DID proliferate TORSEN LSD's.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-14-2018 00:56
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TonyEX wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
TonyEX wrote:

Are you agreeing then that the 9th gen Si was more fun than the 8th?



Except that it didn't have the K20!



That's right! It had the All Konquering K24 with a Mighty torque line that did not require going above 6200 rpm!



That's where the fun begins with the K20!
:)

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 00:18
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owequitit wrote:
...

No, actually Tony, you are the one dabbling in semantics.
..

But again, your lack of experience with Honda LSD's is showing. ...



AY!

There we go again.

Forget it. you are right, I just don't want to argue with you because, IMHO, you don't really read what others write.

Peace and tranquility.

Have a good evening.

@lanta
Profile for @lanta
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 09:25
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TonyEX wrote:
Peace and tranquility.

Have a good evening.



lol what

Grace141
Profile for Grace141
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 09:57
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
RMTRADER wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
sadlerau wrote:
Forget SH-AWD if it's going to be a weekend toy, it's probably the better for it [lower levels of grip, so you are only going very fast instead of stupidly fast - on public roads].

If you doubt it, arrange a test drive.......it's every bit as good as you have been led to believe.



No, no, nyet... once you've tried ATTS and SH-AWD you realize that the reactive nature of an LSD is soooooo backwards.

Sure, it may be fast, but it's just so reactionary and I'm into conservative power trains, you see? ;-)

OK... the deal is that the FWD LSD is an ON/OFF thing whereas ATTS and SH-AWD are far more advanced. You never really notice them and they simply HAUL ASS.




Yeah, I doubt your experience with TORSEN LSD's based on this statement. Very far from an "on/off" thing...



No crap. Tony. Stick to CRV's.



(1) I don't have a CRV. As it was, we had two once upon a time. Both were AWD which really helped out with the understeering common to FWD vehicles.

(2) Owe, you can feel the transfer of torque in the Si when you apply the power, it's really obvious. Go into the turn, back off the gas and the car understeers, give it gas and it suddenly tightens the turn. (*) In this respect, SH-AWD is similar but nowhere as obvious, the transfer of torque is much smoother.... which doesn't surprise me because ATTS was the champ at this. You never felt it.

(*) I taught my son how to drive the Si ( '12 and '13 ). There is this one particular sweeper close to my old work and it was perfect for "feeling" the LSD and SH-AWD behavior ( I drove the '16 TLX SH-AWD there too). You go into that tight long turn and you could really feel the change of steering input as you punched it.






2) Tony, visibly tightening the line when applying gas is NOT the same as binary. Binary implies that it is either working at max value or it is off. You COULD feel the LSD on the Si tighten the line, but it wasn't binary. It continued to the tighten the line as you applied more throttle until you reached the limits of adhesion. Sort of like a mile version of SH-AWD, which starts with steady state understeer and then tucks the line as you add power.

That said, we have already been over this more than once over the years, and it shows your limited experience with Honda LSD's. The point I made then and stand by now is that Honda CHOSE to make the LSD engagement more aggressive starting with the 8th gen Civic Si, and continued it with the 9th gen upon which your experience is based. Honda's older LSDs did NOT exhibit this characteristic and were much more linear in transition.



Ay, are you being a bit hard core with semantics here?

Are you agreeing then that the 9th gen Si was more fun than the 8th?


;-)

Nothing is binary because there's always a histeresys to the behavior. You are doing a very strict interpretation of what I call "ON/OFF". It is ON and OFF because it is abrupt when compared with ATTS and SH-AWD. You can feel the nose moving around, whereas you would never feel that with ATTS (very proactive to the car's attitude and acceleration) and much less with SH-AWD ( much more linear than the LSD but "quicker" than ATTS ).

SH-AWD and ATTS are simply smoother and have significantly higher limits. Imagine an Si with SH-AWD, like others have said, you could not find its limits on open roads, except perhaps on rain/snow/ice. You'd be nuts to try to find its limits outside of a race track or private road.

Such a car, would be, for all purposes, a very neutral car.

Heck, an eSH-AWD would be the perfectly neutral car. It might be boring, as the 9th gen Si was when compared with the 8th gen, yet it would be faster.

Like they say... it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.




No, actually Tony, you are the one dabbling in semantics.

The TORSEN LSD mechanically transfers torque. Produce more torque, and more torque gets transferred to the wheel with more traction. It is actually analog. In fact, other than NOT being able to overdrive the torque it is receiving by multiplying it through gears and clutches, which are heavy and (in the case of clutches) require maintenance. That is why you get 90% of the benefit for much less cost, complexity, weight and long term maintenance. You ultimately become limited by your ability to maintain traction and transfer available torque.

But again, your lack of experience with Honda LSD's is showing. The reason the Type-R was mentioned had nothing to do with suspension tuning, and EVERYTHING to do with its ability to transfer torque (just like the SH) under more power to tighten the handling line, so you are focusing on the wrong part of the comparison. It was also used specifically because prior to the 8th gen Si, it was the ONLY FWD Honda product to offer a TORSEN LSD and it was calibrated much differently than the one in the 8th and 9th gen Si, which was basically the same unit.

There is a reason that Honda didn't proliferate ATTS, but they DID proliferate TORSEN LSD's.


The reality is there have been multiple times more Acuras sold with SH-AWD than all of the Hondas sold with limited slips combined. The ATTS concept evolved nicely into SH-AWD.

Tony is correct. A limited slip diff only reacts to the loss of grip on one side of the axle to which it's applied. Intelligent systems like ATTS and SH-AWD are designed to take full advantage of grip at all times, not just under power-on situations regardless of the wisdom of the Internet. SH-AWD doesn't really replace a limited slip because it's used for completely different reasons. ATTS and SH-AWD do add weight but more importantly they add cost which wouldn't work with the intent of the Si which is a cheap, fun sporty car.

superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 12:45
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@lanta wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Peace and tranquility.

Have a good evening.



lol what


This is TonyEX playing it smart.

DCR
Profile for DCR
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 15:59
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Go drive the Type-R and come back and tell me what it needs.

Until then, not much to discuss.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 16:03
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DCR wrote:
Go drive the Type-R and come back and tell me what it needs.

Until then, not much to discuss.




Hmmm... have you driven the Prelude SH?

notyper
Profile for notyper
Re: Such a damn nice car    (Score: 1, Normal) 07-15-2018 17:53
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Grace141 wrote:

The reality is there have been multiple times more Acuras sold with SH-AWD than all of the Hondas sold with limited slips combined. The ATTS concept evolved nicely into SH-AWD.

Tony is correct. A limited slip diff only reacts to the loss of grip on one side of the axle to which it's applied. Intelligent systems like ATTS and SH-AWD are designed to take full advantage of grip at all times, not just under power-on situations regardless of the wisdom of the Internet. SH-AWD doesn't really replace a limited slip because it's used for completely different reasons. ATTS and SH-AWD do add weight but more importantly they add cost which wouldn't work with the intent of the Si which is a cheap, fun sporty car.



I'll start knitting a winter sweater while you explain to me how ATTS as fitted to the Prelude SH did anything to manage grip during anything but throttle on situations. You can also tell me how it dealt with wheelspin in a straight line with varying traction from wheel to wheel....

In the modern world, the only difference between SH-AWD (which is irrelevant to the conversation about a FWD car) or ATTS and modern electronically controlled limited slip diffs is the ability to overspeed a wheel by a couple percent.

SC


 
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