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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Next gen RLX and ILX

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CarmB
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Re: Next gen RLX and ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-21-2018 18:25
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Without question, expanding into some niche categories ought to happen but the core has to be sorted out first.

I really think itís crucial to move Acura models onto Acura-exclusive platforms, less because of the resulting productsí characteristics and more because of image. I donít see how this is viable unless Acura can extract multiple models from those platforms. Really, it seems just as good for the bottom line to use one platform for all the sedans/coupes as it would be to derive models from platforms originally developed for Honda-branded models. Since one is an image killer and the other would help set Acura apart, clearly it makes sense to go that route. This makes sense even if in terms of absolute dollars, there is some additional cost. If automakers can justify spending money on advertising campaigns, itís logical to devote it to production moves that are equally, if not more, beneficial to brand image.

Once the core offerings are properly positioned, expanding via Type S variants, coupes, and so on, can certainly follow. I donít mean by that having to rework all the core products before doing any Type S variants etc. It would take too long to do it in such a fashion. Yet with resources limited, reworking the core has to be given priority. At the same time, when you can fit in some haloesque niche offerings, by all means do it.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Next gen RLX and ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-22-2018 00:54
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Fitdad wrote:
I donít think we will see a Civic-based ILX again.

https://carbuzz.com/features/here-s-the-problem-with-bringing-back-the-acura-integra

Acura needs to push the lineup northwards - they only have one non-SUV in the $40-$50k range and thatís the V6 TLX. Make the TLX a true luxury compact (186Ē length), cancel the ILX and they have a decent amount of room to work with size and price wise. They need two models ABOVE the TLX and not two models that bracket the TLX. And they need a lot more non-SUV options in the price range I mentioned above - the Germans have all kinds of options for people in that range. The base TLX and a CDX small SUV would be the options for current ILX owners.

I suggested in another thread bringing back the Integra 5-door hatch above the TLX (at maybe ~190Ē) and starting it above $40k with 2.0t and SHaWD standard (say $43-$53k price range for the 2.0t model). And then having the Legend above that at 195Ē or so - in the US the Legend would be 3.0t only and start above $60k. Maybe they could even have a 3-door Integra hatch that would just be a performance variant - basically a 2.0t and 3.0t that are both done up as Type-S models.



"Northwards" as in more premium. Not "bigger." There is a HUGE difference.

Actually, the ILX is a good size as it is, it is merely uncompetitive in its segment. Had the MMC ILX been the car that debuted, it might have done OK, but it wasn't. And the one that did was nowhere near up to snuff in the segment.

The TLX is probably not too far off either from the midsize segment, but again, it has failed to compete with cars like the 5 Series that it is sized similarly to and instead has to compete with the 3 series because 5 series territory is out of its league.

And then there is the RLX, which is a comfortable car on par with a 7 Series in terms of comfort, but is nowhere near competitive enough to actually be considered a legitimate threat to that class.

Size isn't the main problem. Performance, balance, dynamics, detailing, taste and proportions are.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Next gen RLX and ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-22-2018 01:06
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CarmB wrote:
Without question, expanding into some niche categories ought to happen but the core has to be sorted out first.

I really think itís crucial to move Acura models onto Acura-exclusive platforms, less because of the resulting productsí characteristics and more because of image. I donít see how this is viable unless Acura can extract multiple models from those platforms. Really, it seems just as good for the bottom line to use one platform for all the sedans/coupes as it would be to derive models from platforms originally developed for Honda-branded models. Since one is an image killer and the other would help set Acura apart, clearly it makes sense to go that route. This makes sense even if in terms of absolute dollars, there is some additional cost. If automakers can justify spending money on advertising campaigns, itís logical to devote it to production moves that are equally, if not more, beneficial to brand image.

Once the core offerings are properly positioned, expanding via Type S variants, coupes, and so on, can certainly follow. I donít mean by that having to rework all the core products before doing any Type S variants etc. It would take too long to do it in such a fashion. Yet with resources limited, reworking the core has to be given priority. At the same time, when you can fit in some haloesque niche offerings, by all means do it.




FYI, the 2nd gen Acura Legend and 1st gen Vigor had a bespoke platform that later translated to the 1st gen RL and 1st gen TL.

Also FYI, that platform was longitudinally oriented and FWD and was actually more aggressive in the mechanical approach than Audi's long platform by moving the differential even further forward and running the drive shafts through the oil sump. Acura did that solely to achieve a better weight distribution, and while it looked fantastic, it is one of the reasons that I am adamant that at some point it becomes easier and simpler (i.e. a more elegant engineering solution) to just make a car RWD. The layout on that thing was pretty complex.

The first gen Legend was actually bespoke also, though it did share some basic design and componentry with other Honda products. But it was not "based on the Accord" per se.

Also, Acura moving to "exclusive" platforms doesn't guarantee people will perceive them any better if they appear to be based on a Honda. With a transverse FWD layout, there is unfortunately a good chance that will happen.

I am also not 100% convinced that the platforms aren't a little more common than they are saying. There are some major components on the RDX that look an awful lot like some of the components on the CR-V, even if the majority is substantially different.

People always talk about how laymen can't identify which wheels drive their cars, but then comments like "having a unique platform is necessary to differentiate them" come up; even if means that it ends up looking like the lower end cars on which it is no longer based. Even a person who has no clue what wheels drive their car will have a sense of proportion and visual similarity.

I hope it works out for Acura, but I haven't seen an Acura design that made my heart stop in quite some time.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Next gen RLX and ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-22-2018 06:31
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The first Legend plank was a unique joint development with Rover - hence the strut-type rear suspension, where Honda wanted DW...

Owe, in what way would you say the inline layout was "pretty complex?" They certainly appear a lot easier to work on than an Audi, for example. The whole front has to come off those things to get to some basic items.

If they'd revert to that layout and add a rear propshaft and SH-AWD diff behind it (complex modern trannies notwithstanding) then I'd be a very happy bunny. And I'd not really care at all which propshaft they deleted on the 'base' variant, though I accept deleting the front one would make more sense.

I suspect the hybridisation thing might be one reason they've not done that, sadly.

CarmB
Profile for CarmB
Re: Next gen RLX and ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-22-2018 11:55
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Be that as it may, base the next ILX on the Civic platform and you will encourage automotive journalists to compare the ILX to, well, the Civic. Develop an ILX by downsizing the TLX and youíre inevitably going to get comparisons to the TLX itís based on. As well, the Civic platform is already several years old and the next ILX is still a couple of years away. The TLX platform in question is presumably under development and would certainly not result in the next ILX being launched based on a five-year-old platform.

Regarding some engineering being shared between Honda and Acura, if it ainít broke . . .

If a solution fits perfectly with what youíre trying to accomplish, I would be disappointed if that solution was not used.

There ought to be some differentiation in the two brands, certainly, but I doubt sharing certain designs where it makes sense would be such a bad thing.



Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Next gen RLX and ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-22-2018 12:22
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owequitit wrote:
CarmB wrote:
Without question, expanding into some niche categories ought to happen but the core has to be sorted out first.

I really think itís crucial to move Acura models onto Acura-exclusive platforms, less because of the resulting productsí characteristics and more because of image. I donít see how this is viable unless Acura can extract multiple models from those platforms. Really, it seems just as good for the bottom line to use one platform for all the sedans/coupes as it would be to derive models from platforms originally developed for Honda-branded models. Since one is an image killer and the other would help set Acura apart, clearly it makes sense to go that route. This makes sense even if in terms of absolute dollars, there is some additional cost. If automakers can justify spending money on advertising campaigns, itís logical to devote it to production moves that are equally, if not more, beneficial to brand image.

Once the core offerings are properly positioned, expanding via Type S variants, coupes, and so on, can certainly follow. I donít mean by that having to rework all the core products before doing any Type S variants etc. It would take too long to do it in such a fashion. Yet with resources limited, reworking the core has to be given priority. At the same time, when you can fit in some haloesque niche offerings, by all means do it.




FYI, the 2nd gen Acura Legend and 1st gen Vigor had a bespoke platform that later translated to the 1st gen RL and 1st gen TL.

Also FYI, that platform was longitudinally oriented and FWD and was actually more aggressive in the mechanical approach than Audi's long platform by moving the differential even further forward and running the drive shafts through the oil sump. Acura did that solely to achieve a better weight distribution, and while it looked fantastic, it is one of the reasons that I am adamant that at some point it becomes easier and simpler (i.e. a more elegant engineering solution) to just make a car RWD. The layout on that thing was pretty complex.

The first gen Legend was actually bespoke also, though it did share some basic design and componentry with other Honda products. But it was not "based on the Accord" per se.

Also, Acura moving to "exclusive" platforms doesn't guarantee people will perceive them any better if they appear to be based on a Honda. With a transverse FWD layout, there is unfortunately a good chance that will happen.

I am also not 100% convinced that the platforms aren't a little more common than they are saying. There are some major components on the RDX that look an awful lot like some of the components on the CR-V, even if the majority is substantially different.

People always talk about how laymen can't identify which wheels drive their cars, but then comments like "having a unique platform is necessary to differentiate them" come up; even if means that it ends up looking like the lower end cars on which it is no longer based. Even a person who has no clue what wheels drive their car will have a sense of proportion and visual similarity.

I hope it works out for Acura, but I haven't seen an Acura design that made my heart stop in quite some time.


Very well sell and that is the risk Acura faces if they choose to stay transverse no matter how unique they may say. The media may still see them as Honda's

Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: Next gen RLX and ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-26-2018 05:02
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CarmB wrote:
Be that as it may, base the next ILX on the Civic platform and you will encourage automotive journalists to compare the ILX to, well, the Civic. Develop an ILX by downsizing the TLX and youíre inevitably going to get comparisons to the TLX itís based on. As well, the Civic platform is already several years old and the next ILX is still a couple of years away. The TLX platform in question is presumably under development and would certainly not result in the next ILX being launched based on a five-year-old platform.

Regarding some engineering being shared between Honda and Acura, if it ainít broke . . .

If a solution fits perfectly with what youíre trying to accomplish, I would be disappointed if that solution was not used.

There ought to be some differentiation in the two brands, certainly, but I doubt sharing certain designs where it makes sense would be such a bad thing.





I disagree. The Accord and Civic use the same modular platform architecture and share some drivetrain components but I donít see anyone comparing those 2 applications. The Civic isnít a smaller Accord nor is the Accord a larger Civic. The problem with Acura for the last decade or so has been overall product execution and lack of design execution.

Acuraís current older offerings are mediocre at best. I just donít see the engineering or effort in these products. However, my recent seat time in the RDX confines my suspicions that the engineers are back in the game. There are a few small things Iíd change and a lack of a few features that Iíd like to see added but overall, it felt like it was greater vs the sum of its parts. I havenít felt that way about an Acura product in well over a decade.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Next gen RLX and ILX    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-26-2018 09:26
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Civicb18 wrote:
CarmB wrote:
Be that as it may, base the next ILX on the Civic platform and you will encourage automotive journalists to compare the ILX to, well, the Civic. Develop an ILX by downsizing the TLX and youíre inevitably going to get comparisons to the TLX itís based on. As well, the Civic platform is already several years old and the next ILX is still a couple of years away. The TLX platform in question is presumably under development and would certainly not result in the next ILX being launched based on a five-year-old platform.

Regarding some engineering being shared between Honda and Acura, if it ainít broke . . .

If a solution fits perfectly with what youíre trying to accomplish, I would be disappointed if that solution was not used.

There ought to be some differentiation in the two brands, certainly, but I doubt sharing certain designs where it makes sense would be such a bad thing.





I disagree. The Accord and Civic use the same modular platform architecture and share some drivetrain components but I donít see anyone comparing those 2 applications. The Civic isnít a smaller Accord nor is the Accord a larger Civic. The problem with Acura for the last decade or so has been overall product execution and lack of design execution.

Acuraís current older offerings are mediocre at best. I just donít see the engineering or effort in these products. However, my recent seat time in the RDX confines my suspicions that the engineers are back in the game. There are a few small things Iíd change and a lack of a few features that Iíd like to see added but overall, it felt like it was greater vs the sum of its parts. I havenít felt that way about an Acura product in well over a decade.

Actually because the Accord and Civic share the same platform, the Civic has benefited from some Accord-level refinement, and in turn the Accord enjoys the dynamic benefits of this new chassis. There aren't that many degrees of separation that you imply, even though they aren't directly compared. But that's a good thing as it's actually mutually beneficial to both model lines.

The biggest problem with Acura for the last decade wasn't just product execution and lack of design execution. Their powertrains were simply eclipsed by the best in the segment with some seriously good offerings from competitors. It's not great when the engine tech and performance seemed stuck in the mid-00's. This shouldn't have happened for a company that at its core is a motor company. No excuses.

Now one might extrapolate based on how the 2.0T is an excellent motor for its class, that the upcoming V6T will also be a performer, but it remains to be seen how it will be applied and whether it will have truly modern tech like the continuously variable valve-train, etc. And I'm not going to rehash the traverse layout circular discussion but having a heavy front end has me concerned.

Finally, the fact will remain, whether it's fair or whether it's acknowledged, that mainstream Honda will always cast a shadow over Acura, and thus the latter has to work hard to maintain separation than a "stand-alone", bespoke luxury brand. Perhaps one way they are trying to accomplish this is by only offering the high po V6T in Acura's but that's still playing the strategy of limiting Honda to standup the luxury arm. I do wish them well, it would be nice to have good alternatives in this market segment, but Acura has a lot of catching up to do. With their current trajectory I can maybe see them getting to be competitive in mid-performance level of the luxury market with consistent Type-S offerings but the high performance end (i.e., M or AMG or Porsche S) will still remain largely unanswered (NSX v2 excepted). That's just how far the market has advanced while Acura has languished.


 
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