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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos

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owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 15:45
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bnilhome wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
....
Buyers will just go to other brands if the price of the TLX rises by a significant amount yet it still retains a FWD transv layout like Accords and uses a engine from a Honda Accord. The TLX will not sell if it is priced anywhere near the RWD competition with more recognized prestigious names. The main reason people buy the TLX, especially the 6 cylinder is mainly because it is priced so much lower then the competition on top of deals that are often had. Take that away and you will have ILX like sales.
...



The vast majority of buyers have no clue what wheels drive the car, not how a car works.

All the want is nice doodahs, prestige and a reasonable monthly price. What Acura has not done is provide a good looking car, for a long time, since the mod 00s TL.

All Acura needs to do is provide a good looking car with a good marketing sheet of features. It will sell itself.

Think, how can BMW still sell cars in the US? Not because of their engineering prowess.

How can Lexus sell cars in the US? Not because of their design.

It called marketing.



I fully agree with you Tony. Most luxury sedan buyers would not rule out a vehicle based upon FWD vs RWD. The primary situation where this might come into play would be the many parts of the US having winters with snow where those buyers would rule out a vehicle that is RWD only. I also agree that the sedans styling is a key factor in this segment.


Not true at all, luxury buyers have been ruling out FWD Acuras for a decade and going with RWD competitors. They have been doing the same thing with FWD Saabs, Lincolns, and Volvo's. How do you think a FWD S class, 3 series, 7 series would sell if with the prestige of those companies? Sales would collapse.

Winter driving needing AWD/FWD is another myth. AWD options on most luxury cars was pretty rare until about 10 years ago, buyers for the past several decades were buying plenty of RWD cars without AWD in winter states and getting around just fine, it has no real impact on whether someone will buy a vehicle or not. Most luxury makers don't charge a big premium for adding awd so many buyers end up choosing it if they live in states that have snow in the winter but it is not a deal breaker for most buyers if it doesn't have it especially with modern tires and traction control systems.



I think you enjoy being wrong. Please go back and look at the sales history of the 3G TL from 2004 to 2006. The wonderfully designed Acura sold considerably more cars during timeframe than any other time period for this vehicle, AND surpassed the Infiniti G sedan...one of its main RWD competitors, in sales during these years? When Acura and Infiniti moved on to their next gen design, the Infiniti then took over the sales lead from the TL, and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to understand why the 4G TL suddenly stopped selling as well as the 3G had been selling. While it's true there are some auto purists like yourself who really heavily weigh FWD vs RWD, most buyers in this segment are looking at many other factors first, and design along with tech features play a key role in today's market.



You obviously need to try re reading before you accuse anyone of being wrong. First of all I said buyers have been ruling out FWD Acura's for a decade, I am pretty sure a 2004-2006 car would be well before a decade.

At that time Acura's sold much better because the competition was not nearly as good nor where there as many good options and power was nowhere near what it is today. The 3GTL was a good effort by Acura that followed the very successful 2GTL with a bunch of mediocre cars from competitors at the time aside from the 3 series, 3G looked good, handled good, had a good interior, and little cost cutting was evident. When the 3G first came out nobody had cars in that segment packing 300hp which would overwhelm a FWD chassis, it was mainly 190hp-260hp. The 3 series was the only other really good car with a good engine and it was the only one to beat the 3G in sales for the first 2 years or so.

What also happened at around that time was the great looking RWD G35 coupe was a huge hit and pretty much killed the Acura CL and Acura coupes all together. Then around 05/06 the IS350 had over 300hp and other competitors later started creeping to 300hp and building better vehicles, the 3G was still pretty competitive and a Type S helped which was able to beat a G35 and IS350 at races but its sales still started tapering off toward the end of its cycle and the limits of a FWD started becoming more and more apparent.

The beaked 4G TL was not a success, not a bad car, but many did not see it as much of a upgrade over the 3G or even worse in some cases while competitors made improvements to just about all of their models. Despite that, I believe the 4G still sold about what the TLX sales have been despite being split with the TSX, both combined sold more then the TLX but either way, awd did not help 4G sales nor has it really put the TLX at the top.

The days of a FWD luxury sedans based on a family sedans that are not a Lexus ES getting good sales are over, the RWD competition is too good now, there is more choice, and with leasing and better warranties buyers don't have to worry as much about reliability with the Germans. Acura should have figured this out by now especially when it comes to mid level/flagship sedans. It does not matter much if acura comes out with a decent looking sedan as if it is still based on a FWD trans platform it will still be compromised, etc and reviewers will point that out every time.



As Civicb18 pointed out in another thread, and as Tony and I have pointed out in this thread, having a sedan based upon RWD is not a requirement for most luxury sedan buyers, and you are certainly entitled to view that as your own personal entrance criteria for making a sedan purchase, but buyers look at many variables when purchasing a car, and FWD vs. RWD would be near the bottom of that list. If Acura (or any other car maker) can offer an AWD system that delivers great performance and handling, the average luxury sedan buyer is not going to distinguish which wheels the power is coming from relative to a competitor offering AWD based upon a RWD architecture.

Regarding the 3G TL, the reason I brought that up is to support the argument that a vehicle's design is perhaps the most important factor in getting prospective luxury buyers to dealerships for a test drive (I also think brand status plays a role for many buyers wanting to show off their car). In 2004 to 2006 when the TL was out, there was a direct competitor in the Infiniti which was RWD-based and going head to head with the TL and yet the TL sold more units during that timeframe than the Infiniti. In fact, the TL also outsold the BMW 5 series during this timeframe, something that Acura has not ever been able to replicate. Had Acura not nailed the design with the 3G TL that would have never happened. Put another way, had the 4G TL kept its poor design yet had an RWD architecture, I guarantee it would not have outsold the 5-series or Infiniti. To summarize, design and other elements play a much greater factor in car sales than AWD systems based upon FWD vs RWD architecture.




Sales data pretty strongly says otherwise, unfortunately, as the top half of the segment and the consistently strong sellers are typically RWD based. Even Audi, which is not strictly RWD based, has seen large marketshare gains achieved by orienting the powertrain North South and moving it aft.

Proportions matter.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 16:44
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
lexusgs wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
....
Buyers will just go to other brands if the price of the TLX rises by a significant amount yet it still retains a FWD transv layout like Accords and uses a engine from a Honda Accord. The TLX will not sell if it is priced anywhere near the RWD competition with more recognized prestigious names. The main reason people buy the TLX, especially the 6 cylinder is mainly because it is priced so much lower then the competition on top of deals that are often had. Take that away and you will have ILX like sales.
...



The vast majority of buyers have no clue what wheels drive the car, not how a car works.

All the want is nice doodahs, prestige and a reasonable monthly price. What Acura has not done is provide a good looking car, for a long time, since the mod 00s TL.

All Acura needs to do is provide a good looking car with a good marketing sheet of features. It will sell itself.

Think, how can BMW still sell cars in the US? Not because of their engineering prowess.

How can Lexus sell cars in the US? Not because of their design.

It called marketing.


How do you even know that, most men, even non enthusiasts who purchase cars know what wheels are being driven, especially on a more expensive luxury car.

Again, you don't know and are just spouting bullshit to try to argue, the RLX is a nice looking car, nobody buys it, the TLX is nice looking and is having some trouble, Mazda 6 looks very good yet sells poorly. You don't get really good looking sexy sedans on FWD trans platforms.

How do you build prestige? Is it by only selling compromised cars on FWD family sedan platforms with a V6 from the Honda lineup, cost cut interiors, and fake wood trim where reviewers point out their humble meager Honda family sedan/econo car roots in every review? Nope, that is a recipe for grinding away any prestige you had more and more with each generation you do that. You get prestige by building high end cars consistently with little to no compromises, going overboard on power/features/engines, etc that get good reviews.

BMW sells cars by consistently building Tier 1 cars on non compromised platforms, getting great reviews, and giving customers what they want, not telling them what they don't need and cutting costs everywhere they can and holding back.

Lexus sells cars by multiple generations of a Tier 1 flagship sedans/vehicles and consistent high ratings from Consumer reports and other sources. The LS and other Tier 1 cars over the years helps them sell very boring cars like the ES and RX.

Marketing does not sell cars, cars do. You can have the best marketing in the world but if a buyer gets in a car and sees how chintzy the interior is, drives it and thinks it drives more like a family sedan and does not think it is worth the money or there is nothing to get excited about then it won't sell. I pretty much never see S class, Ferrari, Porsche, Bentley, or Lamborghini commercials yet they are successful, the vehicles sell themselves.



Hah.. yeah.... like when I drive the 06 Civic IMA and I pass just about everybody driving their luxo mobiles with RWD and this and that... and they drive slower than a Camry.

It seems the only ones that drive those RWD luxo cars fast are the kids, and then most of them can't handle the tail in a turn and lose it.

RWD doesn't give you "prestige".... money does. Like when I had my little CRX and used to take my wife to an expensive french restaurant in Newport Beach, weekly. Great tipper.

My little CRX, and later Integra, would get parked right in front by the valets, while the Ferraris, Benzes, Bimmers, etc... would get pushed back.

Money talks, prestige walks.

Oh... Lexus sells cars to people who move up from Longo Toyota to Longo Lexus. People who have no clue about the car, all they know is that in their ethnosocioeconomic status they have to have a Lexus. No matter how ugly.

Same thing about Bimmers nowadays.


qingcong
Profile for qingcong
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 17:42
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I'm guessing about 80% of buyers don't care about RWD vs. FWD, but they do care about the things that result from cars that have a RWD platform. Whether they trace everything back to RWD, I doubt it. Humans in general have not demonstrated much capacity for reaching root issues.
lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 01:13
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyEX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
....
Buyers will just go to other brands if the price of the TLX rises by a significant amount yet it still retains a FWD transv layout like Accords and uses a engine from a Honda Accord. The TLX will not sell if it is priced anywhere near the RWD competition with more recognized prestigious names. The main reason people buy the TLX, especially the 6 cylinder is mainly because it is priced so much lower then the competition on top of deals that are often had. Take that away and you will have ILX like sales.
...



The vast majority of buyers have no clue what wheels drive the car, not how a car works.

All the want is nice doodahs, prestige and a reasonable monthly price. What Acura has not done is provide a good looking car, for a long time, since the mod 00s TL.

All Acura needs to do is provide a good looking car with a good marketing sheet of features. It will sell itself.

Think, how can BMW still sell cars in the US? Not because of their engineering prowess.

How can Lexus sell cars in the US? Not because of their design.

It called marketing.


How do you even know that, most men, even non enthusiasts who purchase cars know what wheels are being driven, especially on a more expensive luxury car.

Again, you don't know and are just spouting bullshit to try to argue, the RLX is a nice looking car, nobody buys it, the TLX is nice looking and is having some trouble, Mazda 6 looks very good yet sells poorly. You don't get really good looking sexy sedans on FWD trans platforms.

How do you build prestige? Is it by only selling compromised cars on FWD family sedan platforms with a V6 from the Honda lineup, cost cut interiors, and fake wood trim where reviewers point out their humble meager Honda family sedan/econo car roots in every review? Nope, that is a recipe for grinding away any prestige you had more and more with each generation you do that. You get prestige by building high end cars consistently with little to no compromises, going overboard on power/features/engines, etc that get good reviews.

BMW sells cars by consistently building Tier 1 cars on non compromised platforms, getting great reviews, and giving customers what they want, not telling them what they don't need and cutting costs everywhere they can and holding back.

Lexus sells cars by multiple generations of a Tier 1 flagship sedans/vehicles and consistent high ratings from Consumer reports and other sources. The LS and other Tier 1 cars over the years helps them sell very boring cars like the ES and RX.

Marketing does not sell cars, cars do. You can have the best marketing in the world but if a buyer gets in a car and sees how chintzy the interior is, drives it and thinks it drives more like a family sedan and does not think it is worth the money or there is nothing to get excited about then it won't sell. I pretty much never see S class, Ferrari, Porsche, Bentley, or Lamborghini commercials yet they are successful, the vehicles sell themselves.



Hah.. yeah.... like when I drive the 06 Civic IMA and I pass just about everybody driving their luxo mobiles with RWD and this and that... and they drive slower than a Camry.

It seems the only ones that drive those RWD luxo cars fast are the kids, and then most of them can't handle the tail in a turn and lose it.

RWD doesn't give you "prestige".... money does. Like when I had my little CRX and used to take my wife to an expensive french restaurant in Newport Beach, weekly. Great tipper.

My little CRX, and later Integra, would get parked right in front by the valets, while the Ferraris, Benzes, Bimmers, etc... would get pushed back.

Money talks, prestige walks.

Oh... Lexus sells cars to people who move up from Longo Toyota to Longo Lexus. People who have no clue about the car, all they know is that in their ethnosocioeconomic status they have to have a Lexus. No matter how ugly.

Same thing about Bimmers nowadays.



We are all well aware of your disdain for the luxury market, luxury cars, and their buyers and think real luxury is designer furniture and going to nice restaurants and leaving big tips.

Not sure why if you think that way you feel the need to keep commenting in car forums about luxury cars and making so many pointless arguments with people who do care about the market and buy luxury cars.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-20-2018 01:35
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
TonyEX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
....
Buyers will just go to other brands if the price of the TLX rises by a significant amount yet it still retains a FWD transv layout like Accords and uses a engine from a Honda Accord. The TLX will not sell if it is priced anywhere near the RWD competition with more recognized prestigious names. The main reason people buy the TLX, especially the 6 cylinder is mainly because it is priced so much lower then the competition on top of deals that are often had. Take that away and you will have ILX like sales.
...



The vast majority of buyers have no clue what wheels drive the car, not how a car works.

All the want is nice doodahs, prestige and a reasonable monthly price. What Acura has not done is provide a good looking car, for a long time, since the mod 00s TL.

All Acura needs to do is provide a good looking car with a good marketing sheet of features. It will sell itself.

Think, how can BMW still sell cars in the US? Not because of their engineering prowess.

How can Lexus sell cars in the US? Not because of their design.

It called marketing.


How do you even know that, most men, even non enthusiasts who purchase cars know what wheels are being driven, especially on a more expensive luxury car.

Again, you don't know and are just spouting bullshit to try to argue, the RLX is a nice looking car, nobody buys it, the TLX is nice looking and is having some trouble, Mazda 6 looks very good yet sells poorly. You don't get really good looking sexy sedans on FWD trans platforms.

How do you build prestige? Is it by only selling compromised cars on FWD family sedan platforms with a V6 from the Honda lineup, cost cut interiors, and fake wood trim where reviewers point out their humble meager Honda family sedan/econo car roots in every review? Nope, that is a recipe for grinding away any prestige you had more and more with each generation you do that. You get prestige by building high end cars consistently with little to no compromises, going overboard on power/features/engines, etc that get good reviews.

BMW sells cars by consistently building Tier 1 cars on non compromised platforms, getting great reviews, and giving customers what they want, not telling them what they don't need and cutting costs everywhere they can and holding back.

Lexus sells cars by multiple generations of a Tier 1 flagship sedans/vehicles and consistent high ratings from Consumer reports and other sources. The LS and other Tier 1 cars over the years helps them sell very boring cars like the ES and RX.

Marketing does not sell cars, cars do. You can have the best marketing in the world but if a buyer gets in a car and sees how chintzy the interior is, drives it and thinks it drives more like a family sedan and does not think it is worth the money or there is nothing to get excited about then it won't sell. I pretty much never see S class, Ferrari, Porsche, Bentley, or Lamborghini commercials yet they are successful, the vehicles sell themselves.



Hah.. yeah.... like when I drive the 06 Civic IMA and I pass just about everybody driving their luxo mobiles with RWD and this and that... and they drive slower than a Camry.

It seems the only ones that drive those RWD luxo cars fast are the kids, and then most of them can't handle the tail in a turn and lose it.

RWD doesn't give you "prestige".... money does. Like when I had my little CRX and used to take my wife to an expensive french restaurant in Newport Beach, weekly. Great tipper.

My little CRX, and later Integra, would get parked right in front by the valets, while the Ferraris, Benzes, Bimmers, etc... would get pushed back.

Money talks, prestige walks.

Oh... Lexus sells cars to people who move up from Longo Toyota to Longo Lexus. People who have no clue about the car, all they know is that in their ethnosocioeconomic status they have to have a Lexus. No matter how ugly.

Same thing about Bimmers nowadays.




Do you have data to back that up? Seems to me that accident data very much supports the idea that the number of people losing control of their cars is pretty miniscule overall, despite literally hundreds of thousands of RWD monsters on the road.

I also see FWD or AWD dumbasses exceed the limits of their tires just as often (if not more, due to the false perception of invincibility) as RWD guys.

That said, none of your argument addresses the fundamental physics of putting 60+% of a 4,000lb car on the nose and then trying to make that same end go and steer.


 
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