[home][rumors and news][model release matrix][dealer network][desktop calendar][exhaust notes][tov forums][links][search][sponsors][garage][login]

Tire Rack Upgrade Garage
 Search for a Dealer:
 Canadian Flag US Flag
 Honda Acura
 ZIP  
2019 Acura MDX Arrives with Luxury and Performance Upgrades Plus First A-Spec Variant
More.......................
SPIED IN EUROPE! Civic Type R refresh
More.......................
American Honda Sets New June Sales Records on Strength of Light Trucks
More.......................
Honda reveals refreshed 2019 HR-V and Pilot
More.......................
Acura TLX GT wins class and places 3rd overall at 2018 Pikes Peak International Hill Climb
More.......................
Spied on the Street! 2019 Pilot and Pilot PHEV mule
More.......................
All-New 2019 Honda Insight Brings Style, Sophistication and 55 mpg City Rating
More.......................
It's Official: Honda to supply Red Bull Racing in Formula One from 2019
More.......................
General Talk --> Re: Trying to decide on color
Join Discussion......
RDX --> Re: I'm in a 2019 RDX Advance this week. Any specific questions while I have it?
Join Discussion......
General Talk --> Re: Honda new teaser ad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: 2019 Supra may get 4cyl
Join Discussion......
Type R --> Re: DC-R
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: Zak Brown: 2018 McLaren ‘weaker than last year’s car’
Join Discussion......
Today's Reading Links --> Re: Munro says Model 3 has >30% gross margin
Join Discussion......
ILX --> Re: 2019 ILX
Join Discussion......
Professional Motorsports --> Re: MotoGP - Assen TT (you should watch)
Join Discussion......
Insight --> Re: My next car?
Join Discussion......
RDX --> Re: New RDX vs NX Infomercial
Join Discussion......
Type R --> Re: Such a damn nice car
Join Discussion......
Type R --> Re: Type-R Fascia Changes spotted at Nurburgring
Join Discussion......
Fuel Cell Technology --> Re: Marauding Mirais
Join Discussion......
Hot Deals --> Great lightning deal on Anker ROAV C1 Pro (2k resolution) dashcam - $75
Join Discussion......
First Drive: 2019 Honda Insight
Read Article....................
2019 Honda Insight PR Photo Gallery
Read Article....................
First Drive: 2019 Acura RDX
Read Article....................
2019 Acura RDX Features & Specifications
Read Article....................
PR Photo Gallery - 2019 Acura RDX Advance
Read Article....................
PR Photo Gallery - 2019 Acura RDX A-Spec
Read Article....................

[fancy] [flat] [simple]
TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry

Go to:

Viewing Threshold (What is this?)

Thread Page - [1]
Author
  Post New Thread
KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2018 15:29
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
While people have been talking about trade war and errection of new tarif barriers between the US and Europe, the situation within the EU itself has been out of the focus of TOV.

Here's an little update on the market situation and let's begin with the good points.

Japanese carmakers ditch diesel in Europe

A move that was long expected. Toyota is doing real well in the recent wake of the aftermaths of Dieselgate and WLTP transfer. Sales are up and hybrid take rate are beyond 50% now. Honda is selling very few vehicles, but better late then never, it came up with the CR-V i-MMD Hybrid. This thing can give the popular RAV-4 Hybrid a run for it's money, depending on how well the market introduction will be done. As for Nissan, I haven't seen their e-power serial hybrid system outside of Japan yet. Probably will take some time still.

All Mazda engines to be Euro 6d TEMP compliant
Mazda at the moment is on the forefront of combustion engine development. It's Skyactiv engine set a new standard and it shows this by passing all WLTP certifications with flying colors.

Now let's have a look on the side of native car manufacturers. What's the situation there?

WLTP Makes Another Victim: Peugeot Pauses 308 GTi Production
Porsche to clip showroom as it struggles to meet EU emissions deadline
Volkswagen faces production halt amid WLTP certification delays
German regulator found 5 defeat devices in Daimler diesels, paper says

I've put all those news together, since they center mostly around the same subject and here is a "particle boy" greeting to Mr NotypeR ;)

All german makers curently have troubles with getting their lineup certified to the new WLTP cycle, despite the new ruling have been annonuced for years now.

Problems and delays officially come from "lack of testing facilities", but strangely enough foreign makers doesn't have the same troubles. The truth is that german makers untill the last days hoped for an political intervention from the german government to softening up EU WTLP targets. However, after the Dieselgate scandal, this wasn't so easy anymore.

Now they are struggling with the hardware, which was designed for the NEDC test in mind. Mostly direct injected downsizing engines which hadn't to do the same load testings as on the WLTP, plus they didn't had to meet particle emission limits which are in place now with Euro 6c. As a result, german makers are pulling off vehicles left and right, including VW/Audis complete lineup of PHEVs with 1.4L TSI engine.

And if that wasn't enough already, there are indications now that Daimler have been using defeat devices in severals of their diesel vehicles.

To sum it up, years of spending money only on the development of Diesels and marketing now will take their toll. While German manufacturers are heavily struggling, the Japanese prove to be technical far superior and also have no issues adapting into further regulations. I hope Honda can win back some of it's mojo as worlds largetst manufacturer of engines. It would be pleasant to see even more japanese cars driving around here.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-10-2018 15:59
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
KaizenDo wrote:
While people have been talking about trade war and errection of new tarif barriers between the US and Europe, the situation within the EU itself has been out of the focus of TOV.

Here's an little update on the market situation and let's begin with the good points.

Japanese carmakers ditch diesel in Europe

A move that was long expected. Toyota is doing real well in the recent wake of the aftermaths of Dieselgate and WLTP transfer. Sales are up and hybrid take rate are beyond 50% now. Honda is selling very few vehicles, but better late then never, it came up with the CR-V i-MMD Hybrid. This thing can give the popular RAV-4 Hybrid a run for it's money, depending on how well the market introduction will be done. As for Nissan, I haven't seen their e-power serial hybrid system outside of Japan yet. Probably will take some time still.

All Mazda engines to be Euro 6d TEMP compliant
Mazda at the moment is on the forefront of combustion engine development. It's Skyactiv engine set a new standard and it shows this by passing all WLTP certifications with flying colors.

Now let's have a look on the side of native car manufacturers. What's the situation there?

WLTP Makes Another Victim: Peugeot Pauses 308 GTi Production
Porsche to clip showroom as it struggles to meet EU emissions deadline
Volkswagen faces production halt amid WLTP certification delays
German regulator found 5 defeat devices in Daimler diesels, paper says

I've put all those news together, since they center mostly around the same subject and here is a "particle boy" greeting to Mr NotypeR ;)

All german makers curently have troubles with getting their lineup certified to the new WLTP cycle, despite the new ruling have been annonuced for years now.

Problems and delays officially come from "lack of testing facilities", but strangely enough foreign makers doesn't have the same troubles. The truth is that german makers untill the last days hoped for an political intervention from the german government to softening up EU WTLP targets. However, after the Dieselgate scandal, this wasn't so easy anymore.

Now they are struggling with the hardware, which was designed for the NEDC test in mind. Mostly direct injected downsizing engines which hadn't to do the same load testings as on the WLTP, plus they didn't had to meet particle emission limits which are in place now with Euro 6c. As a result, german makers are pulling off vehicles left and right, including VW/Audis complete lineup of PHEVs with 1.4L TSI engine.

And if that wasn't enough already, there are indications now that Daimler have been using defeat devices in severals of their diesel vehicles.

To sum it up, years of spending money only on the development of Diesels and marketing now will take their toll. While German manufacturers are heavily struggling, the Japanese prove to be technical far superior and also have no issues adapting into further regulations. I hope Honda can win back some of it's mojo as worlds largetst manufacturer of engines. It would be pleasant to see even more japanese cars driving around here.



IMHO, lack of R&D is the least of their problems.

The EU is going to face existentialist political and economic issues very soon.

The years of German Industry having a captive EU market underpinned by German Banks ( buying Gov. bonds from Greece, Italy, Spain, etc...) are about to come crashing down at the same time that the US demands trade tariff parity (or no tariffs and no subsidies). Germany is going to suffer a massive capital crunch when the German banks have to write off those massive purchases of national bonds. It will happen the day after nations start to walk away from the Euro.

The Japanese don't have to worry about any of that as they are equally vested in Asia and North America. They have suffered, or ignored, the EU for quite a few years now.

Then you got Fiat and the French automakers. They are screwed.



Terencemunro
Profile for Terencemunro
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 01:12
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Not only downsized engines are victims. BMW, Merc and Porsche also stopped production of big engines.
KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 01:16
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
I know it's your favorite theory Tony, but if your fellow countrymen aren't involved into banking business, who elso should be? ;)

Nope, I'm looking at the car industry and IMHO german manufacturers over the last two decades have outsourced more and more of their R&D plus production knowledge to suppliers. There is an heavy dependence on companies as Bosch or Continental, and an parasite relation to small scale suppliers who are squeezed out for profits. In the end, german manufacturers are unwilling to react to changes and most probably are also incapable to react.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 11:26
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
The other bit you've conveniently left out is that Mazda's DI engine passed without particulate filters (albeit not turbocharged). And their diesels (that they are still not selling in the US) have also passed.

I'm only half joking when I say this but it may be because Mazda has developed a reputation this generation of having an approximate 0.8:1 Mazda HP to real HP, with emissions directly proportional =D

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 12:05
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
CarPhreakD wrote:
The other bit you've conveniently left out is that Mazda's DI engine passed without particulate filters (albeit not turbocharged). And their diesels (that they are still not selling in the US) have also passed.

I'm only half joking when I say this but it may be because Mazda has developed a reputation this generation of having an approximate 0.8:1 Mazda HP to real HP, with emissions directly proportional =D



Well said, well said CarPhreakD :)

Here is something from a german automotive side which covered particle emissions and Mazda


Mazdas hochverdichtende Saugmotoren sollen die neuen Normen ohne zusätzliche Filter schaffen. Die Entstehung der Rußpartikel werde direkt im Motor reduziert. Mazda baut dafür neue Einspritzdüsen ein und ändert die Form des Brennraums. Zudem erhöht der japanische Hersteller den Kraftstoffdruck und setzt eine Mehrfacheinspritzung ein.


Mazdas highcompressed NA engines should fulfill the new regulations without any adidtional Filters. Emergence of sootparticles will be reduced directly within the engine. Mazda will use new injectors and changes the shape of the combustion-room. Additionally the japanese maker will increase the fuel pressure and make use of multiinjection.

Mit diesen Änderungen soll der Partikelausstoß aller Benzinmodelle auf das erlaubte Maß sinken. Sie sind im März 2018 bestellbar, die Auslieferung startet im Sommer. Einzige Ausnahme: Im Mazda3 kommen die überarbeiteten Motoren nicht zum Einsatz. Der Nachfolger kommt 2019, eine Umrüstung mit Typisierung lohnt sich nicht mehr.

With these changes, the particle emissions of all gasoline models should decrease below the allowed treshhold. They are orderable from March 2018 on, deliveries will start in summer. Only exception: In Mazda 3 the reworked engines won't be used. A replacment will come in 2019, therefore a rework and retypification won't make any sense"

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 12:08
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Oh, it's getting better and better...

Officials raid home of Audi CEO Rupert Stadler as part of ‘dieselgate’ fraud saga

typer_801
Profile for typer_801
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 13:13
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Where's Robert Mueller when you need him, I bet he could find 'collusion' with the other automakers if he were investigating....or at last 50 other unrelated charges ;)



MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 14:11
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
KaizenDo wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The other bit you've conveniently left out is that Mazda's DI engine passed without particulate filters (albeit not turbocharged). And their diesels (that they are still not selling in the US) have also passed.

I'm only half joking when I say this but it may be because Mazda has developed a reputation this generation of having an approximate 0.8:1 Mazda HP to real HP, with emissions directly proportional =D



Well said, well said CarPhreakD :)

Here is something from a german automotive side which covered particle emissions and Mazda


Mazdas hochverdichtende Saugmotoren sollen die neuen Normen ohne zusätzliche Filter schaffen. Die Entstehung der Rußpartikel werde direkt im Motor reduziert. Mazda baut dafür neue Einspritzdüsen ein und ändert die Form des Brennraums. Zudem erhöht der japanische Hersteller den Kraftstoffdruck und setzt eine Mehrfacheinspritzung ein.


Mazdas highcompressed NA engines should fulfill the new regulations without any adidtional Filters. Emergence of sootparticles will be reduced directly within the engine. Mazda will use new injectors and changes the shape of the combustion-room. Additionally the japanese maker will increase the fuel pressure and make use of multiinjection.

Mit diesen Änderungen soll der Partikelausstoß aller Benzinmodelle auf das erlaubte Maß sinken. Sie sind im März 2018 bestellbar, die Auslieferung startet im Sommer. Einzige Ausnahme: Im Mazda3 kommen die überarbeiteten Motoren nicht zum Einsatz. Der Nachfolger kommt 2019, eine Umrüstung mit Typisierung lohnt sich nicht mehr.

With these changes, the particle emissions of all gasoline models should decrease below the allowed treshhold. They are orderable from March 2018 on, deliveries will start in summer. Only exception: In Mazda 3 the reworked engines won't be used. A replacment will come in 2019, therefore a rework and retypification won't make any sense"



So this ^what Mazda is doing, doesn't sound too advanced, but smart, feet on the ground.

Now (let's not debate why you need more) is it so that this mainly works on low HP engines, or could Mazda equally well create a 250hp 4-banger (turbo or not) and keep within regulations?

Many of the 'german tanks' are quite heavy but also sport pretty high output engines. If you put this 2.0 Mazda engine in a heavy 5-series, A6 etc... do we have a slow super boring car?

Not questioning this at all, sounds very good but is it correlated to keeping output moderate? I.e the future is, much lighter cars, less power = still fun.


MarkR
Profile for MarkR
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 14:15
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
MarkR wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The other bit you've conveniently left out is that Mazda's DI engine passed without particulate filters (albeit not turbocharged). And their diesels (that they are still not selling in the US) have also passed.

I'm only half joking when I say this but it may be because Mazda has developed a reputation this generation of having an approximate 0.8:1 Mazda HP to real HP, with emissions directly proportional =D



Well said, well said CarPhreakD :)

Here is something from a german automotive side which covered particle emissions and Mazda


Mazdas hochverdichtende Saugmotoren sollen die neuen Normen ohne zusätzliche Filter schaffen. Die Entstehung der Rußpartikel werde direkt im Motor reduziert. Mazda baut dafür neue Einspritzdüsen ein und ändert die Form des Brennraums. Zudem erhöht der japanische Hersteller den Kraftstoffdruck und setzt eine Mehrfacheinspritzung ein.


Mazdas highcompressed NA engines should fulfill the new regulations without any adidtional Filters. Emergence of sootparticles will be reduced directly within the engine. Mazda will use new injectors and changes the shape of the combustion-room. Additionally the japanese maker will increase the fuel pressure and make use of multiinjection.

Mit diesen Änderungen soll der Partikelausstoß aller Benzinmodelle auf das erlaubte Maß sinken. Sie sind im März 2018 bestellbar, die Auslieferung startet im Sommer. Einzige Ausnahme: Im Mazda3 kommen die überarbeiteten Motoren nicht zum Einsatz. Der Nachfolger kommt 2019, eine Umrüstung mit Typisierung lohnt sich nicht mehr.

With these changes, the particle emissions of all gasoline models should decrease below the allowed treshhold. They are orderable from March 2018 on, deliveries will start in summer. Only exception: In Mazda 3 the reworked engines won't be used. A replacment will come in 2019, therefore a rework and retypification won't make any sense"



So this ^what Mazda is doing, doesn't sound too advanced, but smart, feet on the ground.

Now (let's not debate why you need more) is it so that this mainly works on low HP engines, or could Mazda equally well create a 250hp 4-banger (turbo or not) and keep within regulations?

Many of the 'german tanks' are quite heavy but also sport pretty high output engines. If you put this 2.0 Mazda engine in a heavy 5-series, A6 etc... do we have a slow super boring car?

Not questioning this at all, sounds very good but is it correlated to keeping output moderate? I.e the future is, much lighter cars, less power = still fun.




btw, sure you didn't miss the Daimler news today! 774k ;)

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 14:31
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
KaizenDo wrote:
I know it's your favorite theory Tony, but if your fellow countrymen aren't involved into banking business, who elso should be? ;)

Nope, I'm looking at the car industry and IMHO german manufacturers over the last two decades have outsourced more and more of their R&D plus production knowledge to suppliers. There is an heavy dependence on companies as Bosch or Continental, and an parasite relation to small scale suppliers who are squeezed out for profits. In the end, german manufacturers are unwilling to react to changes and most probably are also incapable to react.



The R&D is still being done by German companies, eh? I believe the Japanese call these conglomerates "Zaibatsu".

And most auto manufacturers today operate on the same manner. It works when the manufacturer establishes long term relationships with its vendors, if fails when it seeks only the cheapest price ( as in Chrysler ).

Once they've linked, it doesn't matter which component of a zaibatsu does the work, they're all in the same boat together.

Bosch presents an interesting item since the electronics themselves will likely not face much higher tariffs, but the cars into which they are installed likely will. So, Bosch is exposed to lower sales of German cars abroad.

In any way, it looks like American and Japanese auto manufacturers using Bosch components won't be affected so much.

Oh, banking.... KaizenDo... meet the Deutsche Bundesbank. It recycles the profits of Germany into loans to the EU customer nations. How long can it last?


TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 14:34
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
typer_801 wrote:
Where's Robert Mueller when you need him, I bet he could find 'collusion' with the other automakers if he were investigating....or at last 50 other unrelated charges ;)





Putin surely was involved.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 14:42
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
All because of their clueless dumb politicians and big govt but then again it is the people that keep putting them in power.
KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 17:07
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
MarkR wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The other bit you've conveniently left out is that Mazda's DI engine passed without particulate filters (albeit not turbocharged). And their diesels (that they are still not selling in the US) have also passed.

I'm only half joking when I say this but it may be because Mazda has developed a reputation this generation of having an approximate 0.8:1 Mazda HP to real HP, with emissions directly proportional =D



Well said, well said CarPhreakD :)

Here is something from a german automotive side which covered particle emissions and Mazda


Mazdas hochverdichtende Saugmotoren sollen die neuen Normen ohne zusätzliche Filter schaffen. Die Entstehung der Rußpartikel werde direkt im Motor reduziert. Mazda baut dafür neue Einspritzdüsen ein und ändert die Form des Brennraums. Zudem erhöht der japanische Hersteller den Kraftstoffdruck und setzt eine Mehrfacheinspritzung ein.


Mazdas highcompressed NA engines should fulfill the new regulations without any adidtional Filters. Emergence of sootparticles will be reduced directly within the engine. Mazda will use new injectors and changes the shape of the combustion-room. Additionally the japanese maker will increase the fuel pressure and make use of multiinjection.

Mit diesen Änderungen soll der Partikelausstoß aller Benzinmodelle auf das erlaubte Maß sinken. Sie sind im März 2018 bestellbar, die Auslieferung startet im Sommer. Einzige Ausnahme: Im Mazda3 kommen die überarbeiteten Motoren nicht zum Einsatz. Der Nachfolger kommt 2019, eine Umrüstung mit Typisierung lohnt sich nicht mehr.

With these changes, the particle emissions of all gasoline models should decrease below the allowed treshhold. They are orderable from March 2018 on, deliveries will start in summer. Only exception: In Mazda 3 the reworked engines won't be used. A replacment will come in 2019, therefore a rework and retypification won't make any sense"



So this ^what Mazda is doing, doesn't sound too advanced, but smart, feet on the ground.

Now (let's not debate why you need more) is it so that this mainly works on low HP engines, or could Mazda equally well create a 250hp 4-banger (turbo or not) and keep within regulations?

Many of the 'german tanks' are quite heavy but also sport pretty high output engines. If you put this 2.0 Mazda engine in a heavy 5-series, A6 etc... do we have a slow super boring car?

Not questioning this at all, sounds very good but is it correlated to keeping output moderate? I.e the future is, much lighter cars, less power = still fun.




I think what Mazda is doing is probably similar to what Toyota is doing - know the limits, know where to stop and don't overstress the materials. For larger or heavier vehicles you can use a larger engine - think for example about the Camry V6 engine which acheives the same fuel economy as the Accords R4 turbo engine.

Btw, which Daimler news you're talking about? Today i only noticed they searched Stadlers house. Oh I found it... Geez!

Germany Orders Daimler to Recall 774,000 Diesels in Europe

That reminds me that my boss ordered an used Mercedes E350d last weekend.

One has to say though, BMW is doing pretty well to stay clean of any scandal recently.

KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 17:46
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
lexusgs wrote:
All because of their clueless dumb politicians and big govt but then again it is the people that keep putting them in power.


To be fair, the downsizing nonsense was the idea of german car industry as an means of protectionism against foreign competitors. Midget engines received tax cuts, while for japanese cars with NA engines, you had to pay more.

It'll get interesting for Ford too. They are launchign all new Focuses with 3yclinder turbobangers...

silverf16
Profile for silverf16
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-11-2018 22:54
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
In the face of emission, co2, and fuel economy, the 2019 Miata will have a red line increase to 7500rpm and now pack 181 Hp. It's no s2000 but they are stepping up to beat the trend of lower revs and turbo. In your face to the naysayers in this industry. Somebody still understands what enthusiasts want and have the ingenuity to make it happen in spite of ever tightening emissions and efficiency.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 10:18
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Well, considering the performance of the base Skyactiv 2.0, there's really nowhere to go except up as I'm not even sure it's making its rated 155hp in base form. I'm also not really sure what sort of "naysayers" you're talking about either, since the Toyobaru has been doing the 200hp thing since it debuted with a somewhat cruder engine.
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 10:22
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
KaizenDo wrote:
MarkR wrote:
KaizenDo wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:
The other bit you've conveniently left out is that Mazda's DI engine passed without particulate filters (albeit not turbocharged). And their diesels (that they are still not selling in the US) have also passed.

I'm only half joking when I say this but it may be because Mazda has developed a reputation this generation of having an approximate 0.8:1 Mazda HP to real HP, with emissions directly proportional =D



Well said, well said CarPhreakD :)

Here is something from a german automotive side which covered particle emissions and Mazda


Mazdas hochverdichtende Saugmotoren sollen die neuen Normen ohne zusätzliche Filter schaffen. Die Entstehung der Rußpartikel werde direkt im Motor reduziert. Mazda baut dafür neue Einspritzdüsen ein und ändert die Form des Brennraums. Zudem erhöht der japanische Hersteller den Kraftstoffdruck und setzt eine Mehrfacheinspritzung ein.


Mazdas highcompressed NA engines should fulfill the new regulations without any adidtional Filters. Emergence of sootparticles will be reduced directly within the engine. Mazda will use new injectors and changes the shape of the combustion-room. Additionally the japanese maker will increase the fuel pressure and make use of multiinjection.

Mit diesen Änderungen soll der Partikelausstoß aller Benzinmodelle auf das erlaubte Maß sinken. Sie sind im März 2018 bestellbar, die Auslieferung startet im Sommer. Einzige Ausnahme: Im Mazda3 kommen die überarbeiteten Motoren nicht zum Einsatz. Der Nachfolger kommt 2019, eine Umrüstung mit Typisierung lohnt sich nicht mehr.

With these changes, the particle emissions of all gasoline models should decrease below the allowed treshhold. They are orderable from March 2018 on, deliveries will start in summer. Only exception: In Mazda 3 the reworked engines won't be used. A replacment will come in 2019, therefore a rework and retypification won't make any sense"



So this ^what Mazda is doing, doesn't sound too advanced, but smart, feet on the ground.

Now (let's not debate why you need more) is it so that this mainly works on low HP engines, or could Mazda equally well create a 250hp 4-banger (turbo or not) and keep within regulations?

Many of the 'german tanks' are quite heavy but also sport pretty high output engines. If you put this 2.0 Mazda engine in a heavy 5-series, A6 etc... do we have a slow super boring car?

Not questioning this at all, sounds very good but is it correlated to keeping output moderate? I.e the future is, much lighter cars, less power = still fun.




I think what Mazda is doing is probably similar to what Toyota is doing - know the limits, know where to stop and don't overstress the materials. For larger or heavier vehicles you can use a larger engine - think for example about the Camry V6 engine which acheives the same fuel economy as the Accords R4 turbo engine.

Btw, which Daimler news you're talking about? Today i only noticed they searched Stadlers house. Oh I found it... Geez!

Germany Orders Daimler to Recall 774,000 Diesels in Europe

That reminds me that my boss ordered an used Mercedes E350d last weekend.

One has to say though, BMW is doing pretty well to stay clean of any scandal recently.



That's because BMW engines are an entirely different issue altogether, in that they are high tech (or was, before everyone caught up in the last 3 years) but are also garbage engines put together with duct tape and string, with Tesla-esque levels of quality control.

What Mazda is describing is no different from what every other OEM has been trying to achieve, and I really don't think what you are saying as 'overstressing' the materials is true considering how high of a combustion pressure some of their engines are working with, in particular their 2.5T (literally one of the industry highest).

Problem is, their only "large" engine is once again pretty advanced (with cooled EGR- so I'm pretty sure it would also do well on emissions), but also well behind the Camry V6 and Honda 2.0T.


KaizenDo
Profile for KaizenDo
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 12:49
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
Audi CEO Rupert Stadler arrested in Germany

Now he's got Polizei

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 13:18
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
It sounds like Germany did in fact have a response to Dieselgate (including fines and arrests)... but for whatever reason, they took seemingly a half year longer to actually act on it. I'm wondering if that's just the pace of bureaucracy, or if it's because proving that Dieselgate cheating is happening in Europe is much harder than the clear-cut guidelines in the United States.
superchg2
Profile for superchg2
Re: News from Europe: The WLTC and the (almost) end of German automotive industry    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 13:57
Reply to This Message Attach Quote to Reply
KaizenDo wrote:
Audi CEO Rupert Stadler arrested in Germany

Now he's got Polizei


Too Funny!


 
Thread Page - [1]
Go to:
Contact TOV | Submit Your Article | Submit Your Link | Advertise | TOV Shop | Events | Our Sponsors | TOV Archives
Copyright © 2018 Velocitech Inc. All information contained herein remains the property of Velocitech Inc.
The Temple of VTEC is not affiliated with American Honda Motor Co., Inc. TOV Policies and Guidelines - Credits - Privacy Policy
29 mobile: 0