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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!

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HDNBenjamin
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 13:22
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This is exciting news..the wait is killing me lol. I have 130K on my 08 RL and hope to replace it with a new TLX S or RLX S if they can make something compelling when I am ready to buy or else I am driving this puppy to 300k.
HDNBenjamin
Profile for HDNBenjamin
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 13:22
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This is exciting news..the wait is killing me lol. I have 130K on my 08 RL and hope to replace it with a new TLX S or RLX S if they can make something compelling when I am ready to buy or else I am driving this puppy to 300k.
Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 13:35
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Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.


With one caveat most Audis are long engine mounted, the A3 and below is transverse and proportions are nothing exciting, even the A4 has taken a step back this generation IMO in proportions. If Acura pulls off A5 proportions then this route will be a success at least from a design prospective. I would love Acura to come out with a A5 sportback competitor, I thought my next car was going to be an S5 coupe then I fell in love with the sportback, can still make my home depot runs when I need and not give up any performance to the coupe when it need.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 14:00
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Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.



The Sport Hybrid AWD is more than SH-AWD, in many ways.

The main problem with SH-AWD is that, like a Porsche 911, it's counterintuitive: just when you want to hit the brakes, it requires that you use the power. That is, in order to NOT lose the car under braking, you have to use the power to bring the tail into the proper position and maintain a neutral path through the turn.

You have to Trust The Force, and most people just have no clue. Including most people who take it for a ride a few blocks around the dealership and then wonder what the fuss is all about. This only included many so called "auto journalists" who simply are just not that good of a driver -or do Internet paper based "reviews".

With a hybrid SH-AWD, the system can put power on the outside rear wheel while the driver applies power on the front. That way you get both slowing down and torque vectoring. IMHO, this is the BEST solution.

In other situations, such as transferring power to any wheel under power or in slippery situations, SH-AWD and hybrid SH-AWD seem to be equivalent.

I don't want to get deep into the FWD vs RWD, except to say, that in the majority of circumstances out on the road, FWD is preferable to RWD: cruising on the freeway, driving in a straight line, slippery situations, larger cabin, etc... Not everybody wants/needs a car made for Jackie Stewart.


Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 14:00
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Mikeydred wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.


With one caveat most Audis are long engine mounted, the A3 and below is transverse and proportions are nothing exciting, even the A4 has taken a step back this generation IMO in proportions. If Acura pulls off A5 proportions then this route will be a success at least from a design prospective. I would love Acura to come out with a A5 sportback competitor, I thought my next car was going to be an S5 coupe then I fell in love with the sportback, can still make my home depot runs when I need and not give up any performance to the coupe when it need.



I'm definitely with you on that one, Mikey!

As long as there's a Honda Prelude version of your CSX or whatever...

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 22:35
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Midi_Amp wrote:
silverTL61 wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:

Outside of the base 2.0t TLX and the Type-S, there will be a hybrid version (FWD)



That means all variations of the next TLX will still be FWD based. Did they really go thru the trouble of designing an "all new, entirely different platform" only to still make it FWD based?

And why a FWD hybrid instead of using the Sport Hybrid AWD which is already available? Feels like the ILX Hybrid and inconsistent marketing all over again.


I think you meant inconsistent product planning, which I'd answer to wait and see. If all the mumbo jumbo is correct, the next TLX will be a top down engineered car. It will be designed and engineered around SH-AWD and the new V6 turbo. With that said, why the trouble? Because their Benchmark target is fairly up there.

For the next gen hybrid going FWD only, there will be many reason, but one I suspect is that they're going all out for MPG, placing battery and control unit in the voids meant for the SH-AWD component. Perhaps the product development committee sees the fallacy of putting hybrid component in a performance variant, as the market only cares for MPG when they see a hybrid badge. So this means the eSH-AWD probably dead in the future as well, replaced solely by i-MMD like solution with driving aids such as P-AWS to increase handling performance a bit.



So they may just do what they did with the failed ILX hybrid, can't wait. When it comes to luxury cars people don't want or buy sporty or fuel efficient hybrid sedans.

The rumors so far point to another FWD transverse platform and adding the 2.0t engine from the Honda Accord, sounds a awfully lot like we have been getting over the years, basically a fancy Accord over and over except since they dropped the 6 cylinder for the Accord, they will try to say that is what makes the top, and probably very pricey 6 cylinder TLX so different. Nothing has changed.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 22:42
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Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.


For the millionth time, Audi is at least on a premium long platform and their cars still don't sell anywhere near what RWD BMW or Mercedes sell, Lexus beats them too and Acura used to beat them a few years ago. Audi also offers a full on luxury flagship sedan, many more models then Lexus/Acura/Infiniti, 400+hp performance versions of just about every car, 8, 10, and 12 cylinders.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 22:51
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Civicb18 wrote:
...

I personally donít believe eSH-AWD is dead but I donít see why people expected to see the system in the TLX. Going by the diagram I was sent, the hybrid tech will be connected to the 2.0t with some type of 10 speed transmission thatís NOT the regular 10 speed. In the diagram it looks nothing at all like the regular 10 speed auto. It looks to be completely unique to that car.

...



It would be ironic if GM was right all along.

Do you recall how GM rolled out their "hybrid" trucks long ago by hooking up an electric motor to the input side of the transmission, right behind the torque converter?

smArt
Profile for smArt
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-16-2018 23:00
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lexusgs wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
silverTL61 wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:

Outside of the base 2.0t TLX and the Type-S, there will be a hybrid version (FWD)



That means all variations of the next TLX will still be FWD based. Did they really go thru the trouble of designing an "all new, entirely different platform" only to still make it FWD based?

And why a FWD hybrid instead of using the Sport Hybrid AWD which is already available? Feels like the ILX Hybrid and inconsistent marketing all over again.


I think you meant inconsistent product planning, which I'd answer to wait and see. If all the mumbo jumbo is correct, the next TLX will be a top down engineered car. It will be designed and engineered around SH-AWD and the new V6 turbo. With that said, why the trouble? Because their Benchmark target is fairly up there.

For the next gen hybrid going FWD only, there will be many reason, but one I suspect is that they're going all out for MPG, placing battery and control unit in the voids meant for the SH-AWD component. Perhaps the product development committee sees the fallacy of putting hybrid component in a performance variant, as the market only cares for MPG when they see a hybrid badge. So this means the eSH-AWD probably dead in the future as well, replaced solely by i-MMD like solution with driving aids such as P-AWS to increase handling performance a bit.



So they may just do what they did with the failed ILX hybrid, can't wait. When it comes to luxury cars people don't want or buy sporty or fuel efficient hybrid sedans.

The rumors so far point to another FWD transverse platform and adding the 2.0t engine from the Honda Accord, sounds a awfully lot like we have been getting over the years, basically a fancy Accord over and over except since they dropped the 6 cylinder for the Accord, they will try to say that is what makes the top, and probably very pricey 6 cylinder TLX so different. Nothing has changed.



So, Midi_Amp is only giving rational speculation. You say the market doesn't want hybrid products, but automakers are intent on building them. So it's a positive IF Acura really is building one soley for the main reason people buy them: fuel efficiency. If it's not interfering with the petrol products but providing a compelling choice to people who actually are in the market (however small) for such a product, then it's a win.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-17-2018 14:17
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bnilhome wrote:
JoePed wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
superchg2 wrote:
JoePed wrote:
Any idea on when we might see the RDX Type-S? I'm really hoping it will be here next summer.

Hopefully packin' the Twin Turbo V-6!



My source stated that the TLX-S would see the 3.0t first followed by the RDX-S.




Ahh thats disappointing, would you wager that the RDX-S is about another 2-3 years out then?



I agree...I am in the market for an SUV in the next 12 months and was really hoping to see a Type S in the RDX. Perhaps Acura will surprise us and do both somewhat close together. I am hoping we are reaching a point with Acura where every major auto show we are either getting a brand new model, a MMC, or a performance variation of an existing model.


One would think Acura has seen the writing on the wall re: TLX for a while now and if they are on top of things, they'd be accelerating development of the TLX replacement as quickly as possible.

gofast182
Profile for gofast182
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-17-2018 14:37
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urbanglowcam wrote:
What I want to know is what the odds are of Acura introducing an all new model? I feel like they'll just kill off the ILX which would leave an opening.

If they're wanting to compete with the Germans now and favor more performance, I'd like to see some kind of roadster or sports car. I hate to see Honda stagnant when Toyota and BMW are working on the new Supra/Z4 for example.

I won't hold my breath though as crossovers have taken over...


I think the right thing to do given where the market is is kill ILX and offer 1 sedan/coupe, well executed, in a range of trims (with performance variants).


Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-17-2018 16:22
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Mikeydred wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.


With one caveat most Audis are long engine mounted, the A3 and below is transverse and proportions are nothing exciting, even the A4 has taken a step back this generation IMO in proportions. If Acura pulls off A5 proportions then this route will be a success at least from a design prospective. I would love Acura to come out with a A5 sportback competitor, I thought my next car was going to be an S5 coupe then I fell in love with the sportback, can still make my home depot runs when I need and not give up any performance to the coupe when it need.



So the Sport Hybrid system, which is ~$1500 more on an MDX than mechanical SHAWD, is too expensive for the TLX...but the TLX CAN support a bespoke platform, a 3.0T and a PHEV?

I donít buy it.

Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-17-2018 17:57
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Fitdad wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.


With one caveat most Audis are long engine mounted, the A3 and below is transverse and proportions are nothing exciting, even the A4 has taken a step back this generation IMO in proportions. If Acura pulls off A5 proportions then this route will be a success at least from a design prospective. I would love Acura to come out with a A5 sportback competitor, I thought my next car was going to be an S5 coupe then I fell in love with the sportback, can still make my home depot runs when I need and not give up any performance to the coupe when it need.



So the Sport Hybrid system, which is ~$1500 more on an MDX than mechanical SHAWD, is too expensive for the TLX...but the TLX CAN support a bespoke platform, a 3.0T and a PHEV?

I donít buy it.



The TLX will have a Type-S version with the 3.0t/SH-AWD, 2.0t FWD, 2.0t SH-AWD and a 2.0t Hybrid. 4 drivetrain variations is more than enough for this segment of car.

The Sport Hybrid system will more than likely be reserved for Acuraís top tier offerings like the much heavier MDX, and RLX as neither have a Type-S variant. I imagine that Acura will revamp the Sport Hybrid system for future models, combine that with the 3.0t and we have a serious combination of power potential. The current system produces 377hp in the RLX so 400+ should be fairly easy to attain.

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-17-2018 18:43
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Civicb18 wrote:
Fitdad wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.


With one caveat most Audis are long engine mounted, the A3 and below is transverse and proportions are nothing exciting, even the A4 has taken a step back this generation IMO in proportions. If Acura pulls off A5 proportions then this route will be a success at least from a design prospective. I would love Acura to come out with a A5 sportback competitor, I thought my next car was going to be an S5 coupe then I fell in love with the sportback, can still make my home depot runs when I need and not give up any performance to the coupe when it need.



So the Sport Hybrid system, which is ~$1500 more on an MDX than mechanical SHAWD, is too expensive for the TLX...but the TLX CAN support a bespoke platform, a 3.0T and a PHEV?

I donít buy it.



The TLX will have a Type-S version with the 3.0t/SH-AWD, 2.0t FWD, 2.0t SH-AWD and a 2.0t Hybrid. 4 drivetrain variations is more than enough for this segment of car.

The Sport Hybrid system will more than likely be reserved for Acuraís top tier offerings like the much heavier MDX, and RLX as neither have a Type-S variant. I imagine that Acura will revamp the Sport Hybrid system for future models, combine that with the 3.0t and we have a serious combination of power potential. The current system produces 377hp in the RLX so 400+ should be fairly easy to attain.



The sports hybrid is something Acura should offer in all vehicles. If they are able to deliver this system on the MDX for onky 1500 more, they could get that premium differential down even more be scaling the technology across the lineup.

Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-17-2018 19:41
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Why would a FWD plug in hybrid have a 272 hp, 280 lb-ft ICE?

How much power could they even add before youíd be smoking the front tires off every time?

The Clarity PHeV has a 181 hp, 232 lb-ft electric motor.

The numbers just donít add up here. I think this system will be the next-gen 3-motor sport hybrid and it will be a PHEV.

Civicb18
Profile for Civicb18
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 02:57
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Fitdad wrote:
Why would a FWD plug in hybrid have a 272 hp, 280 lb-ft ICE?

How much power could they even add before youíd be smoking the front tires off every time?

The Clarity PHeV has a 181 hp, 232 lb-ft electric motor.

The numbers just donít add up here. I think this system will be the next-gen 3-motor sport hybrid and it will be a PHEV.



The diagram doesnít have a drivetrain for a Sport Hybrid model, just a FWD. That doesnít mean it canít accept eSH-AWD for the next gen RLX.

silverTL61
Profile for silverTL61
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 08:23
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On second thought, could this FWD Hybrid be the same powertrain from china's CDX Sport Hybrid or the Accord Hybrid? Both are 2.0L FWD hybrids, but contrary to this secret "diagram" they're N/A and use e-CVT's.


CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 10:18
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No, the dual axis strut does not solve everything. It corrects the scrub radius inherent in macstrut suspensions and eliminates the upper strut mount from having to do all the work (which helps with smooth steering and steering response, meaning less torque steer and less kickback in corners), but it still has a macstrut like zero camber curve.

I'm also not overly hyped up. There's no way in hell that Acura can change overnight into a completely different brand, unless someone at Honda said "hey, let's dump Alfa Romeo-esque levels of resources and a separate skunkworks team into the brand RIGHT NOW". The most I am expecting for "hot cars" from this brand is a V6 turbo RDX that can take the fight to the mid-range Porsche Macan. But I would be surprised if they decide to create RWD cars all of a sudden.

The sport hybrid concept in general needs to change, at the very least the V6 will need to be a naturally aspirated version of the 3.0T engine. But if Honda wanted to take advantage, I'd love to see a 3.0T e-SHAWD variant, with a 2.0T i-MMD setup for the FWD model.


owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 15:10
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TonyEX wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.



The Sport Hybrid AWD is more than SH-AWD, in many ways.

The main problem with SH-AWD is that, like a Porsche 911, it's counterintuitive: just when you want to hit the brakes, it requires that you use the power. That is, in order to NOT lose the car under braking, you have to use the power to bring the tail into the proper position and maintain a neutral path through the turn.

You have to Trust The Force, and most people just have no clue. Including most people who take it for a ride a few blocks around the dealership and then wonder what the fuss is all about. This only included many so called "auto journalists" who simply are just not that good of a driver -or do Internet paper based "reviews".

With a hybrid SH-AWD, the system can put power on the outside rear wheel while the driver applies power on the front. That way you get both slowing down and torque vectoring. IMHO, this is the BEST solution.

In other situations, such as transferring power to any wheel under power or in slippery situations, SH-AWD and hybrid SH-AWD seem to be equivalent.

I don't want to get deep into the FWD vs RWD, except to say, that in the majority of circumstances out on the road, FWD is preferable to RWD: cruising on the freeway, driving in a straight line, slippery situations, larger cabin, etc... Not everybody wants/needs a car made for Jackie Stewart.




Tony, you know that the main limitation on eSH-AWD is that you can't move power front to rear.

If you put a 350-400HP turbo gas V6 in the front and then put a ~100HP electric system in the rear, then you are stuck with a 350-400HP front end traction problem.

eSH-AWD makes dynamic sense (as in the NSX) IF it honors traditional power delivery physics, which is that the rear can handle more than the front. That is especially true if the weight distribution is bad (front heavy) or if the front is also being expected to transmit significant amounts of power.

TonyEX
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 16:18
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owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.



The Sport Hybrid AWD is more than SH-AWD, in many ways.

The main problem with SH-AWD is that, like a Porsche 911, it's counterintuitive: just when you want to hit the brakes, it requires that you use the power. That is, in order to NOT lose the car under braking, you have to use the power to bring the tail into the proper position and maintain a neutral path through the turn.

You have to Trust The Force, and most people just have no clue. Including most people who take it for a ride a few blocks around the dealership and then wonder what the fuss is all about. This only included many so called "auto journalists" who simply are just not that good of a driver -or do Internet paper based "reviews".

With a hybrid SH-AWD, the system can put power on the outside rear wheel while the driver applies power on the front. That way you get both slowing down and torque vectoring. IMHO, this is the BEST solution.

In other situations, such as transferring power to any wheel under power or in slippery situations, SH-AWD and hybrid SH-AWD seem to be equivalent.

I don't want to get deep into the FWD vs RWD, except to say, that in the majority of circumstances out on the road, FWD is preferable to RWD: cruising on the freeway, driving in a straight line, slippery situations, larger cabin, etc... Not everybody wants/needs a car made for Jackie Stewart.




Tony, you know that the main limitation on eSH-AWD is that you can't move power front to rear.

If you put a 350-400HP turbo gas V6 in the front and then put a ~100HP electric system in the rear, then you are stuck with a 350-400HP front end traction problem.

eSH-AWD makes dynamic sense (as in the NSX) IF it honors traditional power delivery physics, which is that the rear can handle more than the front. That is especially true if the weight distribution is bad (front heavy) or if the front is also being expected to transmit significant amounts of power.



The time when you need the likes of SH-AWD most, going into a turn, wanting to slow down yet keeping it from understeering... you really don't need much power to vector the back end.

If you apply braking to three tires while only the rear outside gets 60bhp to rotate the back, that's really sufficient to walk the tail out a bit. In mechanical SH-AWD you need power... you need to step on the gas... huh?

In eSH-AWD, there's a TPU that can vector torque from side to side... that's ALL you need in those situations. You don't need to step on the gas.

In bad, slippery conditions, again you don't need lots of power, just some power where you got traction, again, there's enough power at all tires to get you going.

At WOT in a dry, straight place, OK, so you're still FWD biased, but that's not what SH-AWD is about. It has never been about going in a straight line, it's always been about turns and slippery roads. And, honestly, given reasonable tires, they should be able to handle 300 ft/lbs of torque by themselves.

If worse comes to worse, it's burn out time, and I figure you know how I figure about doing burnouts (hints, it's fun).

I see eSH-AWD as being superior in that it can do rear torque vectoring without the driver having to provide power.


RolledaNsx
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 19:05
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What I understand is the V6t models will use Rear Bias SH-AWD with 10AT.

Sport Hybrid......There will be a new eSH-AWD(TMUII or in Wheel eMotors).It will be for the front wheels,all the ICE power will go to the rear wheels.TLX will not get this.Will need wider Chassis.

nightflow
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 19:40
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I'm guessing there are many project planning reasons for a transverse RWD biased layout. Not enough time/money to build long layout transmission or transaxle and ancillaries. Share cost w/ existing FWD vehicles.

I'm not sure I see a technical product reason. Perhaps driveshaft tunnel intrudes less into cabin area? Better crumple zone design in the front?

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 20:43
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A well done Front Mid-engine long wheel base (ala Legend/Vigor) FWD layout with around 55/45 weight distribution, the rear biased torque vectoring shawd and the return of the double wishbone front suspension could 'potentially' defame the 3 series from being the best driving/ feeling in the segment if Acura does what's right.
TonyEX
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 21:08
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RolledaNsx wrote:
What I understand is the V6t models will use Rear Bias SH-AWD with 10AT.

Sport Hybrid......There will be a new eSH-AWD(TMUII or in Wheel eMotors).It will be for the front wheels,all the ICE power will go to the rear wheels.TLX will not get this.Will need wider Chassis.



TMU:

http://hondanews.com/channels/acura-automobiles/releases/2017-acura-nsx-press-kit-power-unit?page=2

Scroll down to the pictures of the TMU, search for "Twin Motor Unit".

So, I still wonder that the clutch does in the mechanical TMU. It looks like you would operate declutched and for torque transfer you would engage one regen brake on one side and use that electricity to power the motor on the other side. That way, one side (attempts to) rotates faster than the other, hence torque is transferred.

I'd figure the only time you'd clutch both sides would be under straight line acceleration when both wheels are turning at the same rpm.


sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 21:53
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Hondatalover wrote:
A well done Front Mid-engine long wheel base (ala Legend/Vigor) FWD layout with around 55/45 weight distribution, the rear biased torque vectoring shawd and the return of the double wishbone front suspension could 'potentially' dethrone the 3 series from being the best driving/ feeling in the segment if Acura does what's right.


Back in 2008, here down-under, the Euro Accord [TSX] won our Car of the Year Award. The reviewer pointed out that our model, which may have differed from the US version, gave nothing away to the small European segment [A4, 3 Series and C Class] either in interior appointments, nor dynamically, until you got to the high end performance models. So Honda has been there before, they just got lost in a sea of accountants.......

And of course the Australian Legend, with just a minor tyre pressure tweak, would out handle sports sedans costing double what it was worth. It just needed another 100hp to bring it to the attention of the motoring press :)

Honda/Acura have always been capable of doing it [current CTR and NSX take a bow], just they have never had the will to put everything together for mainstream Acura, much to our chagrin!!

Midi_Amp
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 23:02
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nightflow wrote:
I'm guessing there are many project planning reasons for a transverse RWD biased layout. Not enough time/money to build long layout transmission or transaxle and ancillaries. Share cost w/ existing FWD vehicles.

I'm not sure I see a technical product reason. Perhaps driveshaft tunnel intrudes less into cabin area? Better crumple zone design in the front?


There are plenty pros and cons to each engine orientations, but it seems cabin space is quite the killer mantra for Honda engineers. You guys remember when the 7th gen Civic and how proud Honda was that they can claim flat floor on the back seats? Even the move to McPheson Strut was made to creat more cabin space in front. Well, you can say cost probably the main reason they change from double wishbone to strut, but still, there is quite space improvement inside the cabin, especially front leg room.

Everything is still conjecture at this point, but boy if the topic doesn't make TOV alive like it's 2008 again.

nightflow
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2018 23:11
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Porsche sticks with rear engine layout for packaging reasons (tiny rear seat/shelf), however they are able to provide proof in their pudding. I'm not sure if Acura can confidently say to try their pudding after several failed attempts over the past decade or two.

Plenty of pros and cons: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/transverse-vs-longitudinal-engines-the-pros-and-cons/

owequitit
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Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 00:29
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TonyEX wrote:
owequitit wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
Everyone jumping to conclusions here. The TLX Hybrid will use the 2.0t as itís base and be FWD. The Sport Hybrid I think is too expensive for that application which is why currently itís only available on Acuraís top models, the RLX and MDX. Iím fairly positive this system will be upgraded for the next generation of this models along with the addition of the 3.0t. That should put the RLX Sport Hybrid well over 400hp and he MDX in the high 300ís. Both are respectable.

People expecting a 500hp TLX-S simply need to be more realistic here as itís main competitors are in the 350-400hp range.

If the RDX is any indication of how much Acura is changing, we should be in for some solid products as itís been getting rave reviews and seems to fall in line with its top of segment competitors like the X3 and Q5 all for less money. I say bring it.

As far as them being FWD based, Audiís are all FWD based platforms and Audi seems to be doing very well.



The Sport Hybrid AWD is more than SH-AWD, in many ways.

The main problem with SH-AWD is that, like a Porsche 911, it's counterintuitive: just when you want to hit the brakes, it requires that you use the power. That is, in order to NOT lose the car under braking, you have to use the power to bring the tail into the proper position and maintain a neutral path through the turn.

You have to Trust The Force, and most people just have no clue. Including most people who take it for a ride a few blocks around the dealership and then wonder what the fuss is all about. This only included many so called "auto journalists" who simply are just not that good of a driver -or do Internet paper based "reviews".

With a hybrid SH-AWD, the system can put power on the outside rear wheel while the driver applies power on the front. That way you get both slowing down and torque vectoring. IMHO, this is the BEST solution.

In other situations, such as transferring power to any wheel under power or in slippery situations, SH-AWD and hybrid SH-AWD seem to be equivalent.

I don't want to get deep into the FWD vs RWD, except to say, that in the majority of circumstances out on the road, FWD is preferable to RWD: cruising on the freeway, driving in a straight line, slippery situations, larger cabin, etc... Not everybody wants/needs a car made for Jackie Stewart.




Tony, you know that the main limitation on eSH-AWD is that you can't move power front to rear.

If you put a 350-400HP turbo gas V6 in the front and then put a ~100HP electric system in the rear, then you are stuck with a 350-400HP front end traction problem.

eSH-AWD makes dynamic sense (as in the NSX) IF it honors traditional power delivery physics, which is that the rear can handle more than the front. That is especially true if the weight distribution is bad (front heavy) or if the front is also being expected to transmit significant amounts of power.



The time when you need the likes of SH-AWD most, going into a turn, wanting to slow down yet keeping it from understeering... you really don't need much power to vector the back end.

If you apply braking to three tires while only the rear outside gets 60bhp to rotate the back, that's really sufficient to walk the tail out a bit. In mechanical SH-AWD you need power... you need to step on the gas... huh?

In eSH-AWD, there's a TPU that can vector torque from side to side... that's ALL you need in those situations. You don't need to step on the gas.

In bad, slippery conditions, again you don't need lots of power, just some power where you got traction, again, there's enough power at all tires to get you going.

At WOT in a dry, straight place, OK, so you're still FWD biased, but that's not what SH-AWD is about. It has never been about going in a straight line, it's always been about turns and slippery roads. And, honestly, given reasonable tires, they should be able to handle 300 ft/lbs of torque by themselves.

If worse comes to worse, it's burn out time, and I figure you know how I figure about doing burnouts (hints, it's fun).

I see eSH-AWD as being superior in that it can do rear torque vectoring without the driver having to provide power.




Sorry Tony, but no.

First, you have COMPLETELY changed the metric of the argument from one of maximum handling AND traction to one of traction when "slowing down." This is 100% counter to your previous arguments.

Second, you are correct in that eSH-AWD has the ability to apply "negative" torque to the wheel i.e. dragging a brake, but the more weight and polar moment of inertia there is, the more torque you need to achieve a result. That is probably mitigated a little bit by the fact that a nose heavy FWD based car probably needs a little less rear torque than a FWD one would.

However, that still doesn't cure the fact that during any sort of enthusiastic driving, you are going to have a circa 350HP/350 lb-ft TTV6 putting 100% of its torque through the front wheels with around 100HP going to the rear. It is going to show in traction situations, launching and enthusiastic driving. Just look at reception of the RLX vs the NSX and that really says all that needs to be said. Yes, the NSX is much more aggressively tuned, but the overall balance (which is NOT dependent on being tuned like a super car) is much better on the NSX by virtue of weight distribution and the fact that the proper end is receiving the majority of the power.

Obviously, you aren't going expect a mid engined TLX, but again, the laws of physics simply can't be cheated.

Also, above 200HP, the claim of a "majority" of people not knowing what wheels are driving is as bogus as claim as it ever has been.

First, the "majority" of people who "don't know" are buying SUV's and not sports sedans. So the person seeking out an advanced, twin turbo, AWD sports sedan probably IS going to know. Witness current TLX sales, which have been pretty mediocre the entire production run.

Second, in a high HP car that has to put a ton of HP through the front wheels, the difference is blatantly obvious the first time they launch the car hard either in a straight line or in a curve. Even a car stupid person isn't going to confuse the launch and traction capability of an Accord for something like a Chrysler 300S, even if performance and power are similar. They may not know technically WHY it does it, but they WILL know that it does it.

Putting another 50-100HP and at least as much torque through the front of a TLX would be that much more blatantly obvious whether they have eSH-AWD or not. IF Honda were to do that, it would be monumentally stupid and an additional entire generation of Acura cars will collect dust on lots as a result, unless Acura wants to be '90's Cadillac with thousands of dollars in cash on the hood.

Third, the average person is going to be able to see the difference in proportion. And even to car dumb people, that is going to matter. This mule has a better dash to axle ratio compared to the current car, but not as good as Volvo or Audi. Volvo IMO, had to cheat the system to get it to look as balanced as they did by using a narrow four banger (to offset front overhang) while putting a lot of the hardware on the backside. I don't know if Acura can do that with a V6 without ending up with some other major issues.

Finally, as for consumers not caring, the sales in the segment say very much otherwise and there is literally decades and millions of sales worth of data at this point. The RWD based cars sell better on average. Simple as that. You could equally make the argument that beyond a certain size, the 1.5 occupants of each car don't base their purchase simply on size of the interior.



nightflow
Profile for nightflow
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 01:23
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Anybody remember the Mitsubishi 3000GT/Dodge Stealth/GTO?

Transverse V6tt w/ 4WD, 4WS in the VR-4.

sadlerau
Profile for sadlerau
Re: Some juicy Acura info!!!    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-19-2018 01:36
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A friend had a red one back in the late nineties, until he wrote it off running into a tractor on a country road. Heavy is the over riding memory I have of it [though I never drove it myself].

That's when he bought himself a 1992 NSX, which he kept for a decade, and has regretted selling it ever since! My regret is I didn't buy it when he sold it [though if I had, he probably would have wanted it back!]. :)




 
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