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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like

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JeffX
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Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 14:47
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As I mentioned in the Mazda 6 thread, I drove a bunch of cars on Friday. One of them had an electronic rear view mirror - it was a 2018 (or maybe 2019) Nissan Armada.

In daytime lighting, the image was bright and sharp for closer objects, but for objects that were further off in the distance it lacks sufficient detail. So if you're wondering if that car that's pacing you from 150 yards back is a cop, you probably won't be able to tell without looking over your shoulder. On the flipside, it's a little strange when you're at a stoplight and you look up and the image makes it seem like the car behind you is somehow parked underneath the Armada, with the driver of the following car basically kissing your tailgate. It would be cool if they had a speed sensitive zoom which could widen or tighten the zoom as the speed varies.

I also wonder how it will perform in low light situations. I know camera sensors have come a long way with improving sensitivity, I also know that this is likely a fairly small, fairly inexpensive sensor and I don't expect it to be much different in terms of low light performance, so I suspect the image will be somewhat poor in the dark.

My biggest gripe though has to do more with simple physics. Around town it didn't bother me too much, but once I got on the freeway I noticed that it was uncomfortable for me to scan the mirrors like I normally do. The primary reason is because when you're driving at freeway speeds, your eyes are typically focused well down the road. With a conventional mirror, you're still focusing on distant objects when you look in a mirror - not the surface of the glass. But with this electronic rear view mirror, you're shifting your focal point from hundreds of feet to 2 feet. Every time I'd go from looking through the windshield at the road, to checking this mirror, the abrupt adjustment in focal distance was noticeable and annoying to me. Maybe my eyes are more sensitive than others? Has anybody else tried one of these yet?



Last edited by JeffX on 05-21-2018 14:50
CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 17:22
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What annoys me are mirrors with extremely different zoom levels, as I find it disorientating (Unlike a lot of people I use all 3 every couple of seconds and certainly when making quick lane changes). It really screws up your perspective. So I would never get this feature if I could help it.
TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 17:35
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JeffX wrote:
As I mentioned in the Mazda 6 thread, I drove a bunch of cars on Friday. One of them had an electronic rear view mirror - it was a 2018 (or maybe 2019) Nissan Armada.

In daytime lighting, the image was bright and sharp for closer objects, but for objects that were further off in the distance it lacks sufficient detail. So if you're wondering if that car that's pacing you from 150 yards back is a cop, you probably won't be able to tell without looking over your shoulder. On the flipside, it's a little strange when you're at a stoplight and you look up and the image makes it seem like the car behind you is somehow parked underneath the Armada, with the driver of the following car basically kissing your tailgate. It would be cool if they had a speed sensitive zoom which could widen or tighten the zoom as the speed varies.

I also wonder how it will perform in low light situations. I know camera sensors have come a long way with improving sensitivity, I also know that this is likely a fairly small, fairly inexpensive sensor and I don't expect it to be much different in terms of low light performance, so I suspect the image will be somewhat poor in the dark.

My biggest gripe though has to do more with simple physics. Around town it didn't bother me too much, but once I got on the freeway I noticed that it was uncomfortable for me to scan the mirrors like I normally do. The primary reason is because when you're driving at freeway speeds, your eyes are typically focused well down the road. With a conventional mirror, you're still focusing on distant objects when you look in a mirror - not the surface of the glass. But with this electronic rear view mirror, you're shifting your focal point from hundreds of feet to 2 feet. Every time I'd go from looking through the windshield at the road, to checking this mirror, the abrupt adjustment in focal distance was noticeable and annoying to me. Maybe my eyes are more sensitive than others? Has anybody else tried one of these yet?




Interesting. Is the mirror a video display?

The Heads Up Display in our Clarity works very well. I don't have to refocus my eyes to see it clearly.

Perhaps the electronic mirror should be projected onto the windshield and properly focused.

HOWEVER, something you're not going to get on such is 3D (depth)... Huh? It just presents everything in 2D. This might be the reason why you are not adjusting to it. In a normal mirror, your eyes are refocusing light coming into the mirror and the focus of your eyes does not change. That is, if you are looking at the dash and then look at the rear passengers your eyes don't change much. Ditto (!) for focusing on stuff that is far away.

But, with a 2D flat display you will always have to focus that foot and a half.

Simply NOT A GOOD IDEA. Just a gizmo.

To make something like this work you'd need a helmet with the data presented on the visor... separate for each eye so you can create stereo vision and depth. I think the F35 (F22) has (have) this.

For a car... not worth it. A gimmick. Someone didn't really think it through.

PS- I wouldn't call this Physics per se, I'd call it biophysics. It's the way our brain processes stereo imaging.



JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-21-2018 18:13
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TonyEX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
As I mentioned in the Mazda 6 thread, I drove a bunch of cars on Friday. One of them had an electronic rear view mirror - it was a 2018 (or maybe 2019) Nissan Armada.

In daytime lighting, the image was bright and sharp for closer objects, but for objects that were further off in the distance it lacks sufficient detail. So if you're wondering if that car that's pacing you from 150 yards back is a cop, you probably won't be able to tell without looking over your shoulder. On the flipside, it's a little strange when you're at a stoplight and you look up and the image makes it seem like the car behind you is somehow parked underneath the Armada, with the driver of the following car basically kissing your tailgate. It would be cool if they had a speed sensitive zoom which could widen or tighten the zoom as the speed varies.

I also wonder how it will perform in low light situations. I know camera sensors have come a long way with improving sensitivity, I also know that this is likely a fairly small, fairly inexpensive sensor and I don't expect it to be much different in terms of low light performance, so I suspect the image will be somewhat poor in the dark.

My biggest gripe though has to do more with simple physics. Around town it didn't bother me too much, but once I got on the freeway I noticed that it was uncomfortable for me to scan the mirrors like I normally do. The primary reason is because when you're driving at freeway speeds, your eyes are typically focused well down the road. With a conventional mirror, you're still focusing on distant objects when you look in a mirror - not the surface of the glass. But with this electronic rear view mirror, you're shifting your focal point from hundreds of feet to 2 feet. Every time I'd go from looking through the windshield at the road, to checking this mirror, the abrupt adjustment in focal distance was noticeable and annoying to me. Maybe my eyes are more sensitive than others? Has anybody else tried one of these yet?




Interesting. Is the mirror a video display?

The Heads Up Display in our Clarity works very well. I don't have to refocus my eyes to see it clearly.

Perhaps the electronic mirror should be projected onto the windshield and properly focused.

HOWEVER, something you're not going to get on such is 3D (depth)... Huh? It just presents everything in 2D. This might be the reason why you are not adjusting to it. In a normal mirror, your eyes are refocusing light coming into the mirror and the focus of your eyes does not change. That is, if you are looking at the dash and then look at the rear passengers your eyes don't change much. Ditto (!) for focusing on stuff that is far away.

But, with a 2D flat display you will always have to focus that foot and a half.

Simply NOT A GOOD IDEA. Just a gizmo.

To make something like this work you'd need a helmet with the data presented on the visor... separate for each eye so you can create stereo vision and depth. I think the F35 (F22) has (have) this.

For a car... not worth it. A gimmick. Someone didn't really think it through.

PS- I wouldn't call this Physics per se, I'd call it biophysics. It's the way our brain processes stereo imaging.





This is not about stereo imaging really. It's about the distance to the object upon which you're focusing. In this case, you go from a relaxed (~infinite) focus to one where your eye muscles have to squeeze your cornea (lens) to change the focus so you can see the closer object (LCD display where the mirror goes).

when you're looking through a conventional mirror at objects behind your car, the source of the light rays are more distant, and thus you don't have to change your focus (squish the cornea) so much. Like I said, when I'm driving, i'm constantly scanning the mirrors to keep a mental picture of what's going on around me. When you replace one of the mirrors with a near field object (such as an LCD display screen), the constant racking the focus back and forth between essentially the ends of your limits can be really aggravating. I noticed it immediately and was not able to adjust to the annoying sensation, so I don't think I would want one of these electronic mirrors in any of my cars. Yes, a HUD would be better - IIRC, those are supposedly set to appear about 12 feet in front of the vehicle, so you don't have to shift focus so much.

Gfn8r
Profile for Gfn8r
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 09:40
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Is the camera located in the mirror itself, or is it a feed from the backup camera?

I know what you mean about the sharpness issues: my LaneWatch camera has always been a little blurry, as evidenced by every other Honda I’ve driven so-equipped. Only negative I have about my dealer’s service department concerns this, as they always insist they cannot do any more. Whatever, I’m not going to die on that hill, and besides, I need to wean myself off it anyway.

As I’ve said here and elsewhere, I think Gentex would be a good stock to have in one’s portfolio, since their stuff seems to be in almost all but a few manufacturers’ offerings. (Now if only they went back to the glare-fighting rimmed design for their auto dimming mirrors, instead of the rimless, demented-clown-facial-expression-looking things, it’d be real good!)

Is this the same mirror as in recent Cadillac offerings?

JeffX
Profile for JeffX
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 09:57
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Gfn8r wrote:
Is the camera located in the mirror itself, or is it a feed from the backup camera?

I know what you mean about the sharpness issues: my LaneWatch camera has always been a little blurry, as evidenced by every other Honda I’ve driven so-equipped. Only negative I have about my dealer’s service department concerns this, as they always insist they cannot do any more. Whatever, I’m not going to die on that hill, and besides, I need to wean myself off it anyway.

As I’ve said here and elsewhere, I think Gentex would be a good stock to have in one’s portfolio, since their stuff seems to be in almost all but a few manufacturers’ offerings. (Now if only they went back to the glare-fighting rimmed design for their auto dimming mirrors, instead of the rimless, demented-clown-facial-expression-looking things, it’d be real good!)

Is this the same mirror as in recent Cadillac offerings?



the camera is somewhere in the rear of the vehicle. I'm not sure if it's shared with the backup camera (which would require a much wider angle than this one).

re: backup camera clarity - it's wild how much it varies. On my Accord Sport the backup camera was quite sharp, though it sometimes rendered colors oddly. On most of my other Hondas and Acuras (and most other cars, in fact) it's indeed a bit on the fuzzy side.

honduh
Profile for honduh
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 11:52
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JeffX wrote:
TonyEX wrote:
JeffX wrote:
As I mentioned in the Mazda 6 thread, I drove a bunch of cars on Friday. One of them had an electronic rear view mirror - it was a 2018 (or maybe 2019) Nissan Armada.

In daytime lighting, the image was bright and sharp for closer objects, but for objects that were further off in the distance it lacks sufficient detail. So if you're wondering if that car that's pacing you from 150 yards back is a cop, you probably won't be able to tell without looking over your shoulder. On the flipside, it's a little strange when you're at a stoplight and you look up and the image makes it seem like the car behind you is somehow parked underneath the Armada, with the driver of the following car basically kissing your tailgate. It would be cool if they had a speed sensitive zoom which could widen or tighten the zoom as the speed varies.

I also wonder how it will perform in low light situations. I know camera sensors have come a long way with improving sensitivity, I also know that this is likely a fairly small, fairly inexpensive sensor and I don't expect it to be much different in terms of low light performance, so I suspect the image will be somewhat poor in the dark.

My biggest gripe though has to do more with simple physics. Around town it didn't bother me too much, but once I got on the freeway I noticed that it was uncomfortable for me to scan the mirrors like I normally do. The primary reason is because when you're driving at freeway speeds, your eyes are typically focused well down the road. With a conventional mirror, you're still focusing on distant objects when you look in a mirror - not the surface of the glass. But with this electronic rear view mirror, you're shifting your focal point from hundreds of feet to 2 feet. Every time I'd go from looking through the windshield at the road, to checking this mirror, the abrupt adjustment in focal distance was noticeable and annoying to me. Maybe my eyes are more sensitive than others? Has anybody else tried one of these yet?




Interesting. Is the mirror a video display?

The Heads Up Display in our Clarity works very well. I don't have to refocus my eyes to see it clearly.

Perhaps the electronic mirror should be projected onto the windshield and properly focused.

HOWEVER, something you're not going to get on such is 3D (depth)... Huh? It just presents everything in 2D. This might be the reason why you are not adjusting to it. In a normal mirror, your eyes are refocusing light coming into the mirror and the focus of your eyes does not change. That is, if you are looking at the dash and then look at the rear passengers your eyes don't change much. Ditto (!) for focusing on stuff that is far away.

But, with a 2D flat display you will always have to focus that foot and a half.

Simply NOT A GOOD IDEA. Just a gizmo.

To make something like this work you'd need a helmet with the data presented on the visor... separate for each eye so you can create stereo vision and depth. I think the F35 (F22) has (have) this.

For a car... not worth it. A gimmick. Someone didn't really think it through.

PS- I wouldn't call this Physics per se, I'd call it biophysics. It's the way our brain processes stereo imaging.





This is not about stereo imaging really. It's about the distance to the object upon which you're focusing. In this case, you go from a relaxed (~infinite) focus to one where your eye muscles have to squeeze your cornea (lens) to change the focus so you can see the closer object (LCD display where the mirror goes).

when you're looking through a conventional mirror at objects behind your car, the source of the light rays are more distant, and thus you don't have to change your focus (squish the cornea) so much. Like I said, when I'm driving, i'm constantly scanning the mirrors to keep a mental picture of what's going on around me. When you replace one of the mirrors with a near field object (such as an LCD display screen), the constant racking the focus back and forth between essentially the ends of your limits can be really aggravating. I noticed it immediately and was not able to adjust to the annoying sensation, so I don't think I would want one of these electronic mirrors in any of my cars. Yes, a HUD would be better - IIRC, those are supposedly set to appear about 12 feet in front of the vehicle, so you don't have to shift focus so much.


Yeah, what you're describing is called "accommodation". The shape of the lens in the eye has to adjust, and muscles in the eye actuate the change to focus on closer objects, hence you feel more strain doing so, especially for a long time. If it's too close your eyes can't (unless you are myopic), and it gets blurry.

I suppose this is reminiscent of issues with head-mounted displays (i.e., vr). To get around that they use lenses to create a virtual image that projects the image further away for your eye to focus. Not sure how they could effectively integrate that into these electronic mirrors but sounds like something that's needed.

I'd rather have the old, tried and true solution with mirrors. But I do like HUDs.

https://www.aao.org/bcscsnippetdetail.aspx?id=0554ca9e-b088-4bfe-91ab-2fc77bb0ea67

Gfn8r
Profile for Gfn8r
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 13:05
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I was going to say (in my original post back to Jeff) that they need to introduce some sort of “distortion” into the image in order to give the illusion of distance (if that’s the right word).

And to his point also, my backup camera’s image is sharp as they come, with some weird colors—yellow grass, for example! Like a CRT-based TV with a bad tint adjustment; I don’t know if the newer TVs use that, or if they use a “color temperature” adjustment. (I think there’s a similar adjustment on the backup camera, but I’ve just left it alone, as it does a good job!! Hell, I could parallel-park the Queen Mary with it—it’s that good!)

Gfn8r
Profile for Gfn8r
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 13:39
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Will also be looking forward to seeing the HUD in the Touring Accord!
Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 15:12
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So when the camera lens is covered in shit, you cannot see what's behind you.

And a thousand tiny components where a piece of cheap mirrored glass in a plastic bezel would have done.

I wonder if they'll replace the wheels with something containing 100,000 components next?

jshaw
Profile for jshaw
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-22-2018 15:37
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Nick GravesX wrote:
So when the camera lens is covered in shit, you cannot see what's behind you.

And a thousand tiny components where a piece of cheap mirrored glass in a plastic bezel would have done.

I wonder if they'll replace the wheels with something containing 100,000 components next?



Nissan uses the wiper fluid system to blast debris free of the lens. It works reasonably well, though I doubt it will do much for rain. I don't even know if rain repellent wiper fluid is CARB legal.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-23-2018 13:21
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The wiper system is going to be integrated into more cars, as companies have built a small rotating nozzle into the tubes recently for a more effective clean.

You can get Rain-X washer fluid at Wal-Mart.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Electronic rear view mirrors - one thing I don't like    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-23-2018 14:54
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JeffX wrote:
Gfn8r wrote:
Is the camera located in the mirror itself, or is it a feed from the backup camera?

I know what you mean about the sharpness issues: my LaneWatch camera has always been a little blurry, as evidenced by every other Honda I’ve driven so-equipped. Only negative I have about my dealer’s service department concerns this, as they always insist they cannot do any more. Whatever, I’m not going to die on that hill, and besides, I need to wean myself off it anyway.

As I’ve said here and elsewhere, I think Gentex would be a good stock to have in one’s portfolio, since their stuff seems to be in almost all but a few manufacturers’ offerings. (Now if only they went back to the glare-fighting rimmed design for their auto dimming mirrors, instead of the rimless, demented-clown-facial-expression-looking things, it’d be real good!)

Is this the same mirror as in recent Cadillac offerings?



the camera is somewhere in the rear of the vehicle. I'm not sure if it's shared with the backup camera (which would require a much wider angle than this one).

re: backup camera clarity - it's wild how much it varies. On my Accord Sport the backup camera was quite sharp, though it sometimes rendered colors oddly. On most of my other Hondas and Acuras (and most other cars, in fact) it's indeed a bit on the fuzzy side.



The newer models have much sharper back up cameras (higher definition in the display).

Acuras for the last six years have had very good resolution. The TSX Wagon wasn't too bad, but the TLX and RDXs upped the ante.

They also finally got smart with the angle selection. It's much easier to get to, no more digging through layers of menus.


 
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